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posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 12:12 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by counterterrorist
I have no interest in arguing or debating whether Emory, Manning, Bormann or Loftus exist. ...or, if they are important.

I am concerned making people aware that the threat of 2012 is trace-able directly to the Bank-of-England/Fed/Bundesbank/etc. interlocking corporate directorate that funds al Qaeda and all the other para-military terrorist operatives, owns all the banks, own all the oil companies, raises food prices, poisons food and wants to eliminate 90% of humanity -- and also funded the Nazis, Russians, Americans, British, Arabs, Israeli's Vietcong and so forth to bring about 2012.



This is what interests me too.


The dangers of skim reading - sorry. This is not what interests me or rather I am interested in everything you list apart from the implied connectivity to 2012. I understand now your single-mindedness. We are heading in entirely different directions I believe - and perhaps never the twain shall meet. Either way I do not think that either of us have much to gain from continuing this discussion and I will refrain from detracting from your proposed purpose.

Best of luck in your endeavour




posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 03:55 PM
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Reply to Kilgore Trout (tues 1-of-9)

THE SOLDIERS CHANGE BUT THE WAR REMAINS THE SAME

THE WHOLE POINT IS TO SHOW WHAT LEADS UP TO 2012 TO COMBAT 2012
(which, as it turns out, I’ve partially documented in this post)

…& RID PEOPLE OF BEING UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF MIND-CONTROL & PROPAGANDA

(Kilgore Trout, I address your brilliant insights about Skorzeny, below in this post, and hopefully add some information to support your views of him & Sir William Stephenson – Sir William is at the end of this post at tues 9-of-9 WHICH I HOPE YOU'LL FIND OF INTEREST, also address your points in 4-of-9).

Are you saying Sir William Stephenson was by working with Skorzeny and Franco during WWII? Can you expand on the relationship between Stephenson & Skorzeny … as this implies the British counterpart of CIA hiring Gehlen if MI-6 hired Skorzeny. After all, the British hired the Nazi Arabs after WWII to overthrow Israel, and failed.

Consequently, CIA bought them and transplanted them to be the school teaches of the fascist Wahhabi cult that is outlawed by Islam … according to Loftus (excerpted in my book, www.americanciviliancounter-terroristmanual.4t.com,

18th Century Sunni philosopher, Mohammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab ...who took over what’s now called Saudi Arabia, where Wahhabism religion leads Saudi Arabian repression.


POST-WWII, SKORZENY & NAUMANN IN MADRID
Here’s some post-WWII info on Skorzeny & Naumann. (I’m quoting my book quoting Mae Brussell’s article since I can no longer find her article on the web): www.americanciviliancounter-terroristmanual.4t.com

Mae Brussell’s, Nazi Connections to JFK, in Rebel Magazine, commented on Otto Skorzeny and Klaus Barbie. “By 1952, Klaus Barbie had arrived in Bolivia, via a stop in Argentina. He was spirited out of Germany by CIA, with a hand from the Vatican. Soon, he teamed up with SS Major Otto Skorzeny, now was affiliated with CIA ...thanks to Reinhard Gehlen, who’s whole Nazi anti-Soviet intelligence outfit had been hired by CIA. Dr. Fritz Thyssen, and Dr. Gustav Krupp, both beneficiaries of McCloy’s amnesty, bankrolled Skorzeny from the start. “Barbie and Skorzeny were soon forming death squads, such as ...Angels of Death in Bolivia …Anti-Communist Alliance in Argentina …and, in Spain with Stephen Della Chiaie, Guerrillas of Christ the King. “In 1952, Otto Skorzeny, released from American custody in 1947, moved to Madrid. He created what is known as, ‘the International Fascista’. CIA and Gehlen’s BND dispatched Skorzeny to ‘trouble spots’. On his payroll were former SS agents, French OAS terrorists, and secret police from Portugal’s PDID. SS Colonel Skorzeny’s CIA agents participated in terror campaigns waged by Operation 40 in Guatemala, Brazil, and Argentina. Skorzeny was also in charge of the Paladin mercenaries, whose cover, M.C. Inc., was a Madrid export-import firm. “Dr. Gerhard Hartmut von Schubert, formerly of Joseph Goebbels’ propaganda ministry, was M.C.’s operating manager. The nerve center for Skorzeny’s operations was in Albufera, Spain. It was lodged in the same building as the Spanish intelligence agency, SCOE under Colonel Eduardo Blanco …where there was also a CIA office,” Mae said.



[edit on 22-4-2008 by counterterrorist]



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 03:56 PM
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Reply to Kilgore Trout (tues 2-of-9)

THE SOLDIERS CHANGE BUT THE WAR REMAINS THE SAME

Again, from my book (see tues 1-of-2 for url) for which I own the copyright and give myself permission to quote myself,

Skorzeny’s father-in-law was Hjalmar Schacht, president of Hitler’s Reichsbank,” Anderson said. Mae continued. “CIA’s, Skorzeny’s and Gehlen’s death squads …with headquarters in Madrid, were additionally funded by Martin Bormann ... when the Evita Peron-sheltered Nazi flight capital funds were distributed after 1952,” Mae said.


Remember Madonna in the Eva Peron musical? -- that's what disinformation is all about.

Similarly, the Odessa movie?

Kilgore Trout said:

I am happy to discuss Bormann up until 1945, but after that the trail is cold and irrelevant … Bormann like the denialist debate only expends time and energy without any reward or foreseeable conclusion.


I’m so glad you said that, because now I feel encouraged in subsequent posts endeavor to trace the post-1945 Bormann activity in Britain, U.S., South America, Africa, Russia & Asia as best I can … as well as research Nazi-German corporate histories in Germany, U.S., Britain, South & Central America though private ownership as they dominate the pharmaceutical and military-industrial-defense and automotive and space industries and chemical, petroleum and black market operations such as drug smuggling and the laundering of a half trillion dollars of drug money in Fed-owned U.S. banks and a half trillion dollars of drug laundering in Bundesbank-owned banks – that are orchestrating 2012. Isn’t that wonderful, this post will now include the work of the premiere world researchers in that regard. All because of our brief yet intense interaction.

Bormann conspiracy WTC/911 links
According to Dave Emory spitfirelist.com...

This broadcast sets forth elements of a network that Mr. Emory believes to be a Bormann/Underground Reich network. This network was part of the apparatus involved in the execution of the 9/11 attacks. Beginning with review of the Carl Duisberg Gesellschaft and its role in bringing 9/11 hijack ringleader Mohamed Atta to Germany, the broadcast traces the evidentiary tributaries running out of that organization. In addition to a fellowship operated on behalf of the Russian Alfa conglomerate, the CDG network also encompasses the Robert Bosch Foundation Fellowship. The Alfa firm, in turn, has profound links to criminal syndicates in Asia, Russia and Latin America, as well as elements that participated in activities overlapping both the Iran-Contra and Iraqgate affairs. One of the central elements in this network is the royal family of Liechtenstein, a tiny European country that is an epicenter for money laundering. In addition to participating in a front company that was part of the Al Taqwa constellation that funded Bin Laden, the Liechtenstein royal family (in 2001) assumed the powers of absolute monarchy, just in time to interdict any legal investigations that might have gone in the direction of 9/11. The head of the political party that fronted for Prince Hans Adam’s assumption of absolute power is a powerful lawyer who works for an Alfa subsidiary! The dovetailing of powerful German capital interests apparently linked to the Bormann milieu with Russian oligarchic and criminal elements appears to be an outgrowth of traditional German “Ostpolitik.” For more about Ostpolitik, be sure to access Germany Plots with the Kremlin by T. H. Tetens, available for free downloading at: Spitfirelist.com/Books. [spitfirelist.com...]
Program Highlights Include: The German industrial figures on the board of directors of the CDS; a history of the Carl Duisberg Gesellschaft and its American subsidiary, the CDS; the Alfa Group’s links to Cheney’s Halliburton Oil company; the Alfa Group’s links to Iraqgate arms trafficking; the Alfa Group’s links to the oil-for-food scandal in Iraq; Alfa’s links to the Cali coc aine cartel of Colombia; Alfa’s links to heroin trafficking; Attorney Norbert Seeger’s role with Alfa subsidiary Crown Resources; Norbert Seeger’s role as head of the Progressive Citizens Party in Liechtenstein; links between Liechtenstein and the milieu of the CDU funding scandal; Atta’s father’s friendship with the German couple that sponsored Atta’s entry into Germany under the auspices of the Carl Duisberg Gesellschaft; review of John P. Schmitz’s links to many of the entities and personalities discussed in the program.


You mustn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. When these five world authorities and the tops in their fields document with evidence that Bormann and Odessa are true ... (not as you maintain, Odessa was just a Hollywood movie).

…anyone who tries to discredit them, marginalize them, or engage in denial about them, ought to have some impressive intelligence credentials of their own and might do well to also be a recognized world authority.

-- especially since you pronounce condemning judgment and admit you’ve not even read the work of these men, or listened to their broadcasts, or read their magazines. If fact, you acknowledged I made you aware of these researchers and their work.


[edit on 22-4-2008 by counterterrorist]



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 03:57 PM
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Reply to Kilgore Trout (tues 3-of-9)

THE SOLDIERS CHANGE BUT THE WAR REMAINS THE SAME

Kigore Trout said (of me skim-reading his post),

The dangers of skim reading - sorry.


Indeed, I don’t see how you could have even skimmed the lifeworks of Loftus, Emory, Bormann – totaling thousands of pages and thousands of broadcast hours -- when I introduced them to you three days ago.

PREMIERE AUTHORITY ON ALL 20TH & 21ST CENTURY WO & NWO OPERATI0NS
John Loftus is one of the premiere Nazi hunters in the world. His job was to hunt them down for the U.S. Department of Justice. He is an attorney and the hundreds of intelligence agents that come to him for help to declassify documents THAT WERE USED TO BUST AL QAEDA FINANCING ORIGINATING FROM THE U.S. He is a reputable intelligence watchdog and whistleblower. His The Secret War Against The Jews is investigative journalism about double- and triple-agents ON ALL THE MAJOR WO & NWO INTELLIGENCE OPERATIONS OF THE 20TH CENTURY that is documented and unrivaled in the world.

PREMIERE NAZI HUNTER ACKNOWLEDGED BY SUCH IN THE WORLD
Simon Wiesenthal is recognized as one of the PREMIERE NAZI HUNTERS IN THE WORLD. He is recognized around the world as reputable.

PREMIERE ANTI-FASCIST & CONSPIRACY RESEARCHER IN THE WORLD
Dave Emory is one of THE PREMIERE ANTI-FASCIST & CONSPIRACY RESEARCHERS IN THE WORLD, broadcasting for over 30 years, he has a photographic memory and is perhaps the most knowledgeable conspiracy theorist in the world. He has researched and interviewed on the air the major authorities on the WO & NWO. Just the exhaustive summaries of his radio programs are the equivalent of several books. He is a reputable intelligence watchdog and whistleblower. His investigative journalism is unrivaled in the world.

EDITOR & PUBLISHER OF MAGAZINE DEDICATED TO ELIMINATING CIA & FBI
Lou Wolf’s Covert Action Quarterly was the ONLY MAGAZINE IN THE WORLD for 20 years DEDICATED TO GETTING RID OF THE CIA & FBI, and the ONLY publication that was an intelligence watchdog and whistleblower and TOTALLY documented.

Paul Manning was one of THE LEADING INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISTS IN THE WORLD, and COMMUNICATED WITH BORMANN.

Kilgore Trout said:

This is not what interests me or rather I am interested in everything you list apart from the implied connectivity to 2012. I understand now your single-mindedness. We are heading in entirely different directions I believe - and perhaps never the twain shall meet. Either way I do not think that either of us have much to gain from continuing this discussion and I will refrain from detracting from your proposed purpose. … Best of luck in your endeavour.


Thank you. I have a great deal of respect for you, even though I am interested in preventing 2012 and consequently in post-1945 Nazi (Bush/Gehlen/Dulles) activity.

Kilgore Trout said:

We also have some information regarding Skorzeny's post war activities, but this is somewhat more shrouded. Skorzeny was at this stage going through the trial system having been captured by US forces in May 1945, but there is was very little evidence produced against him … and he like many others, escaped from an internment camp in 1948. The Vatican Rat Lines had by this time dried up.


However, having been rescued by Odessa, Skorzeny’s post-war Nazi work for Odessa continued. A nephew of Hjalmar Schacht (Schacht was referred to as ‘Hitler’s banker’), Odessa first placed Skorzeny in South America. Then, Odessa transferred Skorzeny to Madrid, where he was placed in charge of intelligence for Franco – the the same building that housed U.S. intelligence – hence, documenting the influence of Gehlen who now had Hitler’s former German Armies East on the payroll of CIA.

According to Riess, the Nazis went underground in Madrid in 1943 – once they realized they would lose the war. Werner Naumann was in charge of the underground Nazi government in Madrid. These people returned to power in post-war Germany.

As I’ve totally documented prior in this rather lengthy post, and done so for the benefit of myself and ATS folks interested in combating 2012 – if you don’t know history, the world is a mystery -- Since 1945, Gehlen, head for German Armies East intelligence and to whom German Armies East intelligence, was hired by the CIA to run the ‘Christian West Plan’ of mind-control/propaganda/Crusade for Freedom bogus ‘anti-communism’ campaign for the ‘West’. Bormann and Himmler disagreed over versions of the Christian West Plan.

THE WHOLE POINT IS TO SHOW WHAT LEADS UP TO 2012
HOWEVER in the “prisoner of war” camps, where Gehlen and his staff effectively ‘turned’ their captors into hiring them – THE NAZI CHAIN OF COMMAND WAS STILL IN EFFECT! Emerging AFTER 1945, Gehlen and Bormann and von Bolschwing and DeMohrenshieldt effectively networked with Dulles/Casey/Bush representatives of the Bank-of-England/Fed/Bundesbank etc (the Rothschild empire of whom the Warburgs were a pawn (Warburgs founded the Fed as a pawn of Rothschild) and the Browns (the oldest banking house in the U.S. with offices in City of London) as well.


[edit on 22-4-2008 by counterterrorist]



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 03:58 PM
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Reply to Kilgore Trout (tues 4-of-9)

THE SOLDIERS CHANGE BUT THE WAR REMAINS THE SAME

THE WHOLE POINT IS TO TRACE THE INTELLIGENCE OPERATIVES & OPERATIONS FROM WWII DIRECTLY TO 2012 – as they were orchestrated by CITY OF LONDON/BOE/FED.
Dave Emory was a protégé of broadcaster Mae Brussells, she documents the role of von Bolschwing & Gehlen in the U.S. ENTER the postwar Nazi de Mohrenshieldt – Oswald’s ‘best friend’ – tied in to the wealthy expatriate white-Russian petroleum community in Dallas who took care of the Oswalds. Then with JFK, Halliburton; Kelly, Brown & Root – all co-directed by the interlocking directorate of the CITY OF LONDON/BOE/Fed/Bundesbank etc; made a fortune from 1962 to 2008 waging war and slaughtering millions of innocent civilian women and children (according to Carnegie Institute – 90% of the victims of the last 30 wars of the last 40 years have been civilian women and children.)

Kilgore Trout,

During the war, Skorzeny had led a Commando unit based upon the British model set up by Churchill, his unit after some initial failures had succeeded in rescuing Mussolini in 1943.


What was the British model set up by Churchill?

Kilgore Trout

This placed him favourably with Hitler and Himmler promoted him to Major-General. He was used in 'Action Horthy', the plan to kidnap the Hungarian king who was at that time (Oct 1944) engaged in talks with the Russians. Once again he was successful.

I didn’t know this, thank you.

Kilgore Trout

The infamous Operation Greif followed in December. He was a man who believed that the ends justified the means and was happy as long as he got paid. He was also about as far-right as you can get.

You’re right. He was a death-squad, terrorist leader – you can’t get much more far right than that.

Kilgore Trout

Skorzeny opened an import and export business in 1951 in Madrid. This was a front through which he helped former members of the SS to escape Germany. Skorzeny then formed these men into mercenary units.


You’re right … however, I would surmise that Gehlen – now a CIA operative (i.e. Boe/Fed private army operative) was effectively ‘handling’ Skorzeny. At this time in the U.S. Archie Roosevelt working for Rockefellor was a CIA desk jockey accompanying Einsenhower visiting Skorzeny in Madrid … as Skorzeny’s office (now the head of Franco’s intelligence) shared the building with U.S. Intelligence. Selwa ‘Lucky’ Roosevelt, married to Archie, eventually became head of protocol in the Reagan-Bush regime.

I quote my book, American Civilian Counter-terrorist Manual www.americanciviliancounter-terroristmanual.4t.com (As I recall, the source info came from Mullin’s Secrets of the Federal Reserve and Kurt Riess, The Nazis Go Underground, and Tete Harens Tetens’, The New Germany and the Old Nazis

The Knights of the Golden Circle don’t disband after the Civil War, they continue as guerrilla fighters serving ongoing British attempts to destabilize the Union. They rob money to finance a second Confederate rebellion. That was the specialty of the James Gang, more Knights of the Golden Circle. Historians say the American Civil War didn’t end in 1865, but continued to be fought underground for 19 more years …just as World War II didn’t end in 1945, because the CIA hired Hitler’s anti-Soviet guerrilla Nazi leader Otto Skorzeny and his ‘Werewolf’ guerrillas, who continued fighting in Eastern Europe and Eastern Russia, until 1952. The Knights spy network was involved in many subversive activities, such as train robberies by Jessie James, the purpose being to fund the Confederates that went underground after they lost their military warfare in 1865 ...just like the Nazis went underground in Madrid, starting in the early 1940s, and operated an exile Nazi underground government in Madrid well into the 1950s under Werner Naumann ...until Germany was again recognized as an independent state.



[edit on 22-4-2008 by counterterrorist]



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 03:59 PM
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Reply to Kilgore Trout (tues 5-of-9)

THE SOLDIERS CHANGE BUT THE WAR REMAINS THE SAME

Again, source info comes from Mullin’s Secrets of the Federal Reserve and Kurt Riess, The Nazis Go Underground, and Tete Harens Tetens’, The New Germany and the Old Nazis I quote my historical novel, again (see 4-of-9 for url):

Lucky and her husband Archie were in Madrid, where Archie was CIA Madrid Station Chief. At the time, Archie was talking with Nazi Spanish Security Chief Otto Skorzeny …years later Archie told Lucky, Skorzeny organized the postwar Nazi underground in Argentina ...then, came to Spain to help the fascist Franco, organize and train death squads to defeat anti-Fascist partisans in the Spanish Civil War …and, that the Dulles central bank consortium financed Franco’s side of the civil war …and, financed the anti-Fascist partisans fighting for Democracy. The other man in the conversation was Nazi, Werner Naumann, who organized the postwar Nazi underground headquarters, and government-in-exile, in Madrid …back in 1943, nine years earlier. Werner Naumann planned a Nazi coup d’état to take place in Berlin, in 1952 …it was exposed at the last minute, and failed. Lucky remembered the situation, at the time. Werner Naumann threw his hands up in the air …the entire Nazi-run Spanish embassy was thrown into chaos, by the arrival of the ‘We-like-Ike’, advance team. Ike’s presidential advance team had come to make preparations for President Eisenhower’s visit. The ‘We-like-Ike’ advance team frantically passed out ‘We-like-Ike’ lapel buttons …ignoring the Spanish ambassadors and State Department people …then, ordered around their hosts …and, the advance team’s behavior compromised Archie’s covert relations with Spanish security, and intelligence services, run by Otto Skorzeny …Skorzeny and Neumann stormed off angrily. Lucky remembered after Archie became CIA Britain Station Chief, he was treated just as rudely there, by the Kennedy presidential advance teams …when Lucky and Archie were stationed in London.



[edit on 22-4-2008 by counterterrorist]



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 03:59 PM
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Reply to Kilgore Trout (6-of-8)

THE SOLDIERS CHANGE BUT THE WAR REMAINS THE SAME

Also note Emory’s description of his Foothill College public broadcast on another book by Tetans: spitfirelist.com...

Germany Plots with the Kremlin
By T.H. Tetens
T.H. Tetens’ Germany Plots with the Kremlin (1953) treats the pivotally important German “Ostpolitik,” which German power structure has traditionally exploited in order expand and develop its influence. The German threat to either remain neutral during the Cold War, or to ally with the USSR, was a significant factor in persuading conservative American power brokers to go along with the reinstatement in Germany of the Nazi elements that prosecuted World War II.

Under the circumstances, some of these conservatives felt that permitting Nazi elements to return to power behind a democratic façade was the lesser of two evils, although many would have preferred a more traditionally conservative German political establishment. This German “Ostpolitik,” in turn, is characteristic of the geopolitical foresight and cynicism with which pan-Germanists have successfully pursued their goal of world domination through the centuries.

An authority on pan-Germanism employed by the U.S. government during World War II, Tetens analyzes German Ostpolitik in the aftermath of the war in the context of centuries of German policy toward Russia and the former Soviet Union. Tracing the roots of Ostpolitik, Tetens begins with Frederick the Great’s secret pact of 1762 with Czar Peter III, which disrupted the European coalition that almost crushed Prussia in the Seven Years War. This pact saved Prussia from total defeat and led to the first partition of Poland.

In 1867, German chancellor Otto von Bismarck made a secret pact (called a “re-insurance treaty”) with Russia, which secured Germany’s Eastern frontier, helping to make Germany the strongest military power on the continent. Following in the footsteps of their predecessors, General Hans von Seeckt (head of the German general staff) created a new army after the German defeat in World War I. That army trained and armed in Soviet Russia after the Rapallo Treaty between Germany and the USSR in 1922. While German Chancellor Gustav Stresemann feigned neutrality, von Seeckt contemplated “war against the West in alliance with the East.” Perhaps the best-known example of Ostpolitik was the Hitler Stalin pact of 1939, which secured Germany’s Eastern border on the eve of World War II.

After World War II, the German geopoliticians (acting at the direction of the leaders of the Underground Reich under Martin Bormann) pursued a similar tack. Threatening neutrality, or even an alliance with the Soviets, the Germans were able to manipulate the U.S. into wooing Germany as an ally- --granting it renewed economic and military power and re-installing Nazis in positions of great influence.

Kevin Coogan’s remarkable text Dreamer of the Day: Francis Parker and the Postwar Fascist International contains an excellent contemporary account of this phenomenon. Listeners are emphatically encouraged to read the Coogan text as a supplement to the Tetens book (which was published in 1953.)

In 1950, the Madrid Geo-political Center (a Nazi think tank operating in exile under the friendly auspices of fascist dictator Franco) discussed the successful realization of the Reich’s plan to go underground. (These plans were described by Curt Reiss in The Nazis Go Underground. The Nazi grooming and installation of Franco, whose country was an important base for the postwar Reich activities, is discussed in Falange by Alan Chase.)

The following passage appears on page 73 of the Tetens text: “According to the Madrid Circular Letter, referred to above, the German planners have never ceased their political warfare against the Allies. They admit that they had ‘blueprinted the bold plan and created a flexible and smoothly working organization,’ in order to safeguard Germany from defeat and to bring Allied post-war planning to nought.

They boast that they were able to create total confusion in Washington, and that they saved German heavy industry from destruction: ‘By no means did the political and military leadership of the Third Reich skid into the catastrophe in an irrational manner as so many blockheads and ignoramuses often tell us. The various phases and consequences of the so-called ‘collapse’ . . . were thoroughly studied and planned by the most capable experts . . . Nothing occurred by chance; everything was carefully planned. The result of this planning was that, already a few months after Potsdam, the coalition of the victors went on the rocks.’. . .”



[edit on 22-4-2008 by counterterrorist]



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 04:00 PM
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Reply to Kilgore Trout (tues 7-of-9)

THE SOLDIERS CHANGE BUT THE WAR REMAINS THE SAME

Note: (Werner Naumann was running the underground Nazi government in Madrid in 1953 and Skorzeny was running Madrid intelligence.) From mindcontrolforums.com The Postwar Reemergence of the Nazi Party [url=] www.mindcontrolforums.com... [url]

We Germans should be realistic. We lost two wars to the Jews. Why should we lose another?
- Former Nazi propagandist Werner Naumann to British intelligence agents, July, 1953

In September 1944, Sims Carter, assistant chief of the Economic Warfare section of the Justice Department, testified before the Kilgore Committee that despite military defeat, the industrial cartels of German had renewed activity from bases in Argentina: "All the machinery," he said, "is ready for safeguarding German supremacy in the steadily expanding South American market." Much of that market had been quietly incorporated by I.G. Farben and other financial backers of Hitler well before the war began. In the 1930s, as German factories tooled up for the onslaught, German entrepreneurs quietly built factories, railroads and chemical and steel plants throughout South America. The munitions industry was all but monopolized by Farben and Krupp, providing business fronts for the Nazi fifth column. The insinuation of Nazism into Caribbean politics was directed by Alfred Becker and Arnold Margerie, officers of Farben La Quimica Bayer in Caracas. Down in Argentina, Axel Wenner-Gren, a Swedish millionaire and crony of Herman Goering, Hitler's propaganda minister, established subsidiaries and gracefully snatched up key industrial plants.
After the war, Nazis quietly assumed new posts within the German government.

The Konrad Adenauer government adopted an anti-Nazi facade in public while reelevating war criminals to prominence. By 1951, 134 former members of the National Socialist Party held senior positions in the West German Foreign Office. Attorney Hans Globke, author of the legal rationale underlying the Third Reich's racial laws, was placed in charge of Konrad Adenauer's Federal Press and Chancellory bureau. On January 19, 1953, the New York Times took notice: "Nazism is not dead in Germany." Given time and opportunity, "a form of Nazism could again rise to power.
Materially speaking, Nazism was smashed into a pulp by 1945," but the "vigorous roots remained." Among their contacts in the United States, the Nazi "elite" could rely on the generous assistance of a well-connected patron, Pedro Del Valle, who went on to become a vice president of ITT. In 1954, Del Valle, a retired Marine Corps lieutenant general, was soundly defeated in his run for the Republican gubernatorial nomination. His campaign was spiced with public endorsements of a foaming anti-Semitic tract, Know Your Enemy. Twenty years later, Del Valle and ITT consultant John McCone, formerly a CIA director, threw in to overthrow Allende in Chile's 1970 elections. ITT funnelled $350,000 into event, and when the brutal dictatorship of Pinochet was installed, the conglomerate conspired with other "conservative" companies to pirate the country's natural resources. As a hedge against the fall of the Third Reich, German industrialists had made provisions in 1944 for protecting their loot from confiscation by the U.S and England.




[edit on 22-4-2008 by counterterrorist]

[edit on 22-4-2008 by counterterrorist]



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 04:01 PM
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Reply to Kilgore Trout (tues 8-of-9)

THE SOLDIERS CHANGE BUT THE WAR REMAINS THE SAME

www.history.ucsb.edu...

The New Nazis and the Old Germany by T.H. Tetens is a powerful work written in 1961. By the evidence Tetens produces, it seems to be a distinct possibility that Nazism and fascism will once again rise in Germany. The Germany that the "esteemed president emeritus of Harvard" Dr. Conant finds, "a people who have turned their backs on the German Past" (Tetens 19), and Chancellor Adenauer’s proclamation that "Anti-Semitism had disappeared" (Tetens 75,143) are sharply contrasted with the Zind Case, the Koeppern Case and similar affairs that Tetens alludes to. Tetens discusses the Naumann case and the significance of their plot to take over the government as well as the infiltration of the government, Bundeswehr, and those Germans who were polled as being Christian Democrats by former Nazis with much alarm. Tetens critically views in the same light the proliferation of ex-Nazi armed forces groups and neo-Nazi organizations as well as the rural areas where Nazism and anti-Semitism simmer below the surface. I found this book by accident; I picked it off of the shelf because its title intrigued me.


Kilgore Trout

There are also a number of rumours that suggest he supplied mercenaries for use by the French in Indo-China. This is more heavily concealed, for obvious reasons.

Interesting, because the British ruling family’s fortune was partly derived from running opium into China. And, French involvement in Indo-china was largely based to capture the heroin market. And U.S. involvement secured the heroin market.

Kilgore Trout

Skorzeny obviously must have had a contact list, every good mercenary runner needs high level contacts. He obviously made a vast amount of money as he bought a number of properties both in Spain and Ireland (which may give you a hint as to his contacts).

I think Skorzeny was handled by Gehlen/CIA. However, you raise an interesting insight. HOW DID THE COMPETING ECONOMIC INTERESTS THAT CONFLICTED HIMMLER WITH BORMANN – since Himmler appears to have been closer to Philby and England (MI-6/boe), and Bormann with Dulles and CIA (Fed).

Kilgore Trout

Franco though initially in business with the Nazis soon changed sides to support Britain when the Nazis ran out of hard currency, and Churchill authorized regular and large payments to the Spanish dictator. It can be therefore assumed that Skorzeny was in contact, via Franco, with the Churchill faction (which included Sir William Stephenson, another mercenary runner).


1. Britain through Bank of England & City of London financed Hitler. City of London and Fed shareholders OWNED German industry after WWI AND after WWII. That’s why, according to James Stewart Martin’s ‘All Honorable Men’ – significant German industry WAS NOT BOMBED.
2. Sir William Stephenson (see end of this post-series)

Kigore Trout

Now for me, this is all the information I need. Skorzeny organized mercenaries, those mercenaries were used in illegal wars and by governments against their own citizens. Skorzeny arranged assassinations. For all this he was rewarded. These represent any number of factions and concerns.


If you supply the factions and concerns, I’ll try to document for you how those factions and concerns were post-war Odessa/Bormann-related.

Kilgore Trout

Again, it helps fill in the picture but we are no nearer our goal. Skorzeny was a cog, a vicious and brutal one, but like the mercenaries he ran, trained by Theodor Eicke, they were of no use otherwise. The only skills they had, were to murder with impunity. They were protected by those who hired them, but the employers varied.

I would think if you name the employees, I will try to document they are co-directed by City of London/ the Royal family/ Boe’s MI-6/ & the Fed – the same dynastic banking and drug smuggling and slave trading and genocidal dynasties BRINGING US 2012.


[edit on 22-4-2008 by counterterrorist]



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 04:03 PM
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Reply to Kilgore Trout (tues 9-of-9)

THE SOLDIERS CHANGE BUT THE WAR REMAINS THE SAME

I need to conclude by quoting my book again www.americanciviliancounter-terroristmanual.4t.com, for which I own the copyright and give myself permission,

Nancy told me, Henrik Kruger’s, Great Heroin Coup, talked about International Fascista. “It fulfilled the dream of Skorzeny ...but, also of his close friends in Madrid …exile Jose Lopez Rega, Juan Peron’s grey eminence …and Prince Justo Valerio Borghese, the Italian fascist money man who’d been rescued from execution from the hands World War II Italian resistance fighters by future CIA counterintelligence whiz, James J. Angleton,” Henrik said. Mae continued. “A subcommittee on international operations of Senate Foreign Relations Committee prepared a report, Latin America, Murder, Inc. …still classified. The title repeated Lyndon Johnson’s remark three months before he died, ‘We were running a Murder, Inc. in the Caribbean’. Murder Incorporated concluded, ‘The United States had joint operations between Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay, and Uruguay. The joint operations were known as, Operation Condor. These are special teams used to carry out ‘sanctions’ …the killing of enemies,’ the report said. Aug. 3, 1979 Jack Anderson’s column gave a few details in, Operation Condor, An Unholy Alliance. “Assassination teams are centered in Chile. This international consortium is located in Colonia Dignidad, Chile. Founded by Nazis from Hitler’s SS, headed by Franz Pfeiffer Richter …Adolf Hitler’s 1000-year Reich may not have perished. Children are cut up in front of their parents, suspects are asphyxiated in piles of excrement, or rotated to death over barbecue pits. Otto Skorzeny had code-named his assault on American soldiers in the Battle of the Bulge, ‘Operation Greif’, the ‘Condor’. He continued Condor with his post-war special teams, imposing ‘sanctions’, meaning the assassination of enemies. Skorzeny’s father-in-law was Hjalmar Schacht, president of Hitler’s Reichsbank,” Anderson said. Mae continued. “CIA’s, Skorzeny’s and Gehlen’s death squads …with headquarters in Madrid, were additionally funded by Martin Bormann ... when the Evita Peron-sheltered Nazi flight capital funds were distributed after 1952,” Mae said.


From Oil Wars, by Mary Kaldor, Terry Karl, and Yahia Said www.amazon.com... .


In the early part of the twentieth century, there was fierce rivalry between the three largest oil companies …Shell, Exxon ...and, British Petroleum.

Shell … Henri Deterding, head of Shell, bought (1) oilfields in Egypt in 1908, (2) the Russian Ural-Caspian oilfields in 1910, (3) Mexican oilfields belonging to Lord Cowdray Weetman Pearson, (4) Venezuelan oilfields, which still produce a sixth of Shell’s supplies, (5) American oilfields

Exxon … Walter Teagle, head of Exxon (1) secretly bought a prosperous Texas oil company named Humble in 1919, (2) secretly bought out Nobel Russian oil interests for 11.5 million dollars in 1920, though the new communist regime seized the oilfields and paid Exxon nothing.

British Petroleum … BP controlled not only Iran (Anglo-Persian Oil Company), but 25% of oil from Iraq Petroleum Company. Iraq Petroleum Company (earlier called, Turkish Petroleum Company) was formed following WWI, composed of British Petroleum, Exxon, Gulf, Texaco, Mobil, and Calouste Gulbenkian, an Armenian entrepreneur.

Exxon, Shell & British Petroleum … In 1928, Teagle (Exxon), Deterding (Shell), and Sir John Cadman (BP) met in Achnacarry Castle in Scotland. They agreed on a price-fixing scheme that would stop competition that had been harmful to them. These three oil rulers controlled the pricing and supply of oil worldwide. …

Exxon … In 1926, Exxon signed an agreement with the German chemical combine, I.G. Farben, for an exchange of patents and research. Farben was to stay out of the oil business and Exxon would stay out of the chemical business. The agreement gave Nazi Germany hundred-octane aviation fuel and synthetic rubber. Exxon held back the research in synthetic rubber in the U.S. In 1941, Justice Department bought two antitrust suits against Exxon for conspiring to control oil transportation through pipelines and making restrictive agreements with I.G. Farben. Exxon was forced to pay a fine of $50,000. The U.S. was now involved in the WWII and Japan had seized the Malayan rubber plantations, from which America had earlier derived rubber. Senator Harry Truman claimed that Exxon’s failure to pursue synthetic rubber research in the U.S., while developing it in collaboration with the Germans, constituted treason.

Texaco … under direction of its president, Torkild Rieber, Texaco provided six million dollars worth of oil to Franco, the Spanish dictator. Rieber made contact through Spain with leading Nazis and agreed to supply oil from Colombia to Germany. Texaco continued to supply oil to Nazi Germany even after the outbreak of the World War II in 1939, receiving as payment three Hamburg tankers. Rieber sealed the deal with Goering in Berlin.
At Goering’s insistence, Rieber put forward a peace plan to Franklin D. Roosevelt which would ensure Britain’s surrender. Roosevelt told Rieber to get out of his dealings with Nazi Germany. Rieber ignored Roosevelt and financed the propaganda mission of Dr. Gerhardt Westrick, a German lawyer, to dissuade American businessmen from supplying Britain with arms.

The head of British Intelligence in New York, Canadian millionaire William Stephenson, learned of the Westrick fiasco and broke the story to New York Herald Tribune. Westrick was forced to return to Germany on a Japanese ship. Rieber was discredited and Texaco shares plummeted.



[edit on 23-4-2008 by counterterrorist]



posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 05:11 AM
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Originally posted by counterterrorist

THE SOLDIERS CHANGE BUT THE WAR REMAINS THE SAME


I could not agree more. I have to say I am so enjoying your posts and you may have me turned round to the Bormann/Odessa concept by the end of this...however, I still wonder what he had that could have kept him alive...anyway I will not dwell on that now.


Originally posted by counterterrorist
Are you saying Sir William Stephenson was by working with Skorzeny and Franco during WWII? Can you expand on the relationship between Stephenson & Skorzeny …


No, I can't, guess work I'm afraid. You must understand the British Intelligence Operations are far more compartmentalised than the US. Added to that is the fact that the British SIS was deeply divided, with those who were pro-German and those, like Churchill who were pro-US and anti-German (to an extent). Churchill when he was made Prime Minister of the Coalition Wartime government, surrounded himself with trusted associates, those who had stood by him during the 'Wilderness years'. He did not have the power or the support to clear out those who were opposed to his view so they continued their operations. If it will assist you I would be happy to outline these divisions for you, or at least give you a little background. I tend to look for factions and from that I study patterns of behaviour, I think we have a very different outlook on the data that we come across, I seek to understand motive etc.

It is not much but this is what I have of Stephenson...

Stephenson (code name Intrepid) was Churchill's man in the US and controlled the British counter-intelligence operation (called the British Security Co-ordination or BSC) against the Abwehr. This is where the origins of J Edgar Hoover's anti-British stance came from, he was in deep opposition to Stephenson during the war and objected heavily to Roosevelt about Stephenson's operations. I have very little on Stephenson, but I will outline that here.

He is described as a Canadian entrepreneur and former boxer. Ian Fleming described him as 'the scourge of the enemy throughout America' (p45 Hitler's Secret War, Charles Whiting). By various accounts he used any means at his disposal to PREVENT German-US business alliances from going further. Churchill of course wanted the US to ally with Britain, because he acknowledged that Britain could not win a european war but with the US by its side it could win the world war. Hitler himself noted that Churchill would rather give the empire away piecemeal to the US than ally with Germany (not everyone in the UK felt the same way obviously).

On the 26 June 1940, a party was held at the Waldorf-Astoria to celebrate the surrender of France. In attendence was Colonel Behn, Cheif Executive of International Telephone and Telegraph, James Mooney, Chief of General Motors Overseas, Edsel Ford of Ford Motors as well as executives and representives of such companies as Eastman Kodak etc. The party was hosted by Dr Gerbhard Westrick, but the guest of honour (and man who picked up the bill) was Captain Torkild Rieber whom you have covered. Reiber had helped Goering to develop Germany's Four year Economic Plan, and as you have mentioned he also he supplied oil in exchange for Hamburg tankers (3 I think). Rieber was also meeting all Westrick's expenses. He paid for the rent on his house in Scarsdale, he bought him a Buick and he deposited $5,000,000 in a San fransisco bank account for his use.

As you have covered, Reiber had met Goering when he was conducting a $6,000,000 oil deal with Franco. When Reiber was unable to get Roosevelt to listen to the offer of an alliance with Germany - Roosevelt was a convinced Germanphobe - he had invited Westrick to the US to meet his friends. (I am sure that Reiber was also a paid up agent of the Abwehr too, but I'm not 100% on that).

Stephenson, while Westrick cabled Germany the next day to say that the party had been a huge success with all present agreeing to use their power to lobby the government to come to terms with Germany and to cease supplies to the British, went to visit his friend Arthur Sulzberger, founder of the Columbia Jewish Advisory Board and publisher of the New York Times. Stephenson and Sulzberger plastered the story of the party all over the papers and did not let up until Westrick was labeled an Nazi agent and run out of town. Reiber was forced to give up the presidency of Texaco and for the remainder of the war he kept a very low profile. His disgrace was short lived of course, by the end of the war he emerged from any scandal untarnished.

The following link is a list of the coverage of the story in the New York Times and subsequent smear campaign against Westrick and Reiber.

query.nytimes.com... 4&day2=23&year2=2008&submit.x=29&submit.y=7

When Dulles was appointed to the OSS he moved into an office on the 38th floor of the Rockefeller building, the same office that Stephenson had run his operations from.

This is the main chunk of information I have on Stephenson and i am sure you will agree it is not much. What I have 'guessed' for myself is that he worked with Churchill's Anti-Communist League on operations in Russia, including Churchill's assassination attempt on Lenin. He was also, I think involved in the inter-war years in scuppering the ships that were being built for the Kreigsmarine in Hamburg. Additionally there is a brief reference to him in Peter Wright's Spy Catcher, which I will quote for you (this is why, combined with his pre and ww2 activities, that I think he was involved in Mercenary running after the war, but it is a 2+2 =5, more analysising patterns of behaviour than anything else, certainly not infallible)

'..(Bill) Harvey and Angleton questioned me closely about every part of the Suez Operation.

"We're developing a new capability in the Company (CIA) to handle these kind of problems," explained Harvey, "and we're in the market for the requisite expertise."

...He explained ponderously that they needed deniable personnel, and improved technical facilities - in Harvey Jargon "delivery mechanisms." They were especially interested in the SAS. Harvey knew that the SAS operated up on the Soviet border in the 1950s tracking Russian rocket signals with mobile receivers until satellites took over, and that they were under orders not to get caught, even if this meant fighting their way out of trouble.

"They don't freelance, Bill." I told him, "You could try picking them up retired, but you'd have to see Six (MI6) about that ."

Harvey looked irritated, as if I were being deliberately unhelpful.

"Have you thought of approaching Stephenson?" I asked, " A lot of the old-timers say he ran this kind of thing in New York during the war. used some Italian, apparently, when there was no other way of sorting a German Shipping spy. Probably the Mafia for all I know."' (p161 Spy Catcher by Peter Wright). He goes on the suggest the French 'Its more their type of thing' and references their activities in Algiers. Fascinating book if you can get your hands on it BTW.

It is also worth noting that when the Venona documents came out, MI5 under Peter Wright, found that a number of Soviet agents were operating within BSC. There was a huge conflict in the US between the pro-Communists and pro-Fascists, I think we know which side won, but it adds a very interesting texture to the WW2 landscape of the US. Stephenson was obviously astute enough to utilise this to his advantage, in the Italian community as well, favours could not only be bought but there was a contingent who were opposed to Mussolini and willing to assist against Germany.

Doesn't answer your question but hopefully explains my thinking on this a little.



posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 05:36 AM
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Originally posted by counterterrorist
...the British hired the Nazi Arabs after WWII to overthrow Israel, and failed.


This is not so simple and I recommend you read up on the Arab Revolt.

For very brief insight you may find these two posts that I wrote of interest and feel free to ask if you would like me to expand on any of the points mentioned, they are just brief overviews and not really in context with this thread.

UK/German relations in Persia
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Nazi supported Jewish militancy
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I'm out of time for now, I will continue to try and work through your posts though. You don't give me much chance to catch up.

BTW I am a big fan of Mae Brussell's work, here's a link to her site for those who have not read any of her work.

www.maebrussell.com...




posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 10:43 AM
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Originally posted by counterterrorist
Kilgore Trout,

During the war, Skorzeny had led a Commando unit based upon the British model set up by Churchill, his unit after some initial failures had succeeded in rescuing Mussolini in 1943.


What was the British model set up by Churchill?



en.wikipedia.org...

There is little I can add, your information on the whole is excellent if a little US-centric, but that is where your interest lies - my level of interest is more on the German-Anglo side of things and more particularly on Britain in general.


Originally posted by counterterrorist
Kilgore Trout

There are also a number of rumours that suggest he supplied mercenaries for use by the French in Indo-China. This is more heavily concealed, for obvious reasons.

Interesting, because the British ruling family’s fortune was partly derived from running opium into China. And, French involvement in Indo-china was largely based to capture the heroin market. And U.S. involvement secured the heroin market.

For information on the involvement of the British in the Opium trade, I recommend that you look at the origins and history of the City of London Corporation and most particularly the Honourable East India Company.


The company was an aggressive party and destroyed monasteries in Tibet. It helped cause the Opium wars as a promoter of opium smuggling. With these actions, the company diminished the popularity of England and Europeans in Tibet and China.


en.wikipedia.org...


China's defeat in both wars forced the government to tolerate the opium trade. The United Kingdom coerced the government into signing Unequal Treaties, opening several ports to foreign trade and yielding Hong Kong to Britain. The British also gained extraterritorial rights. Several countries followed Britain and forced unequal terms of trade onto China. This humiliation at the hand of foreign powers contributed to the Taiping Rebellion (1850-1864), the Boxer Rebellion (1899-1901), and the downfall of the Qing Dynasty in 1911.


en.wikipedia.org...


Originally posted by counterterrorist

18th Century Sunni philosopher, Mohammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab ...who took over what’s now called Saudi Arabia, where Wahhabism religion leads Saudi Arabian repression.



I hope you don't mind but i think it would be useful to fill out some of the history of British involvement in the middle-east and the opium trade in general.

Also for additional background into the spread of the Wahhabists, it is worth studying the Indian Mutiny, particularly Said Ahmed and the path of Mohammed. This is a fascinating period which is tied up in the rise of both Christian fundamentalism (Anglican) and Muslim fundamentalism.

At the turn of the 19th century India was a rich and multi-cultural nation, where white, Christian moguls lived in harmony with their Hindu and Muslim counterparts. The British who lived and worked alongside the native Moguls adopted the Indian lifestyle, wearing Indian dress and in some cases taking multiple wives. Intermarriage was commonplace between the employees of the Company and local women. However as the Company and India came under greater control and influence from Britain, so Britain sought to impose “Britishness” upon India.

At this time Sufism was the prominent form of the Muslim faith in India. Sufism which had spread out from Baghdad in the 13th to 16th centuries combined mysticism with the propagation of education in the sciences and notions of unity and brotherhood. This belief system, actualising and spiritual in nature had merged into Indian culture and Muslims and Hindus lived side by side in relative harmony. However just as Christianity was taking a more conservative turn in Europe and particularly Britain, so was the Muslim faith in Arabia.

Towards the end of the 18th century an off-shoot of Sunni Islam began to emerge around Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab at-Tamimi who sought to reform the faith of Islam along more ascetic lines with an abandonment of mysticism and a return to scholarship of the teachings of the prophet Mohammed. The British labelled his followers Wahhabists.

Around the same time, Britain’s involvement in Persia began as part of the ‘Great Game’ in the first half of the 19th century. Britain considered Russian expansionism as a threat to its Jewel in the Crown, India and viewed Afghanistan as a possible staging post for an attack on India. The rest of the 19th Century saw Russia and Britain fighting over control and influence in Afghanistan.

While Britain and Russia were involved in a push-me-pull-me situation over Afghanistan a new empirical threat emerged from Germany that polarized the interests of Russia and Britain. In 1907 Alexander Izvolsky and Edward Grey signed an agreement to unite against German expansionism. Persia was divided into three zones – British, Russian and Neutral. While Russia was able to concentrate on its European territories, Britain looked to diminishing the influence of Germany in the Middle-East.

TE Lawrence had spent many years traveling through Palestine, Syria and Iraq as a post-graduate student. He had got to know the German engineers and technicians working of the railways in the Ottoman held lands. At the outbreak of war, despite these friendships with the co-beligerents against Britain, Lawrence volunteered for service and soon found his way into the intelligence services operations to protect British interests (Suez, Anglo-Egyptian Sudan) and trade routes open.

The idea soon crystallized in the offices of Whitehall that the best solution to the problem would be to remove the Ottomans from the Near East by empowering the arabs . Lawreance was instrumental in creating the insurgency against the Ottomans that led to the Arab Revolt. In Guerilla operations Lawrence fought alongside the Arabs and formed a close friendship with Emir Faisal, Sherif Hussein of Mecca’s son. Together they were able to convince all the Arab groups to unite in a co-ordinated attack against the Ottoman’s. In the vacumn that followed the British were awarded the Mandate to govern “until such a time as they can stand alone”. However the Sykes-Picot-Eisner between France, Britain and with Russian agreement outlined plans to carve up Palestine.

The Arabs however still felt that the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence stood and they would be allowed to develop independence and appoint their own leaders.

As soon as the British had taken charge of the mandate they were petitioned on the prospect of allowing Jewish settlement in Palestine.

I realise that this is somewhat off-topic but I do feel it is important in understanding the role that Britain played in creating disharmony and Muslim extremism and it is so often overlooked. Lawrence of course worked alongside St John 'jack' Philby, whose fealties lay elsewhere.

And that brings us back to Himmler via his son, Stanley 'Kim' Philby - nicknamed after the boy-spy of Kipling's story of the same name.



posted on Apr, 24 2008 @ 05:31 PM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


response to KilgoreTrout (1-of-15)
Dave Emory is a protégé of Mae Brussells.

I’m going to do shorter posts that are easier to respond to. Actually, denying the Bormann Conspiracy is one of the greatest accomplishments of the holocaust deniers and the propaganda/social engineering/mind-control establishment.

Dave Emory is a protégé of Mae Brussells and worked with her and her daughter, then after her death carried on broadcasting these last 25-30 years. Here’s a dedicated google site to Dave’s 30 years of anti-fascist (i.e. anti-2012) research rpirani.best.vwh.net...

In the early late 80’s early 90’s I transcribed about 15-20% of Dave’s broadcasts, then in additional to his theses and interests, also researched my own for the next 15 years – then combined those with Loftus, Scott, Wolf, Sutton into my book … and now … with ATS folks views, I hope to do an abridged version of the book and update it with ATS views and info (I’m now two weeks behind on my abridged book, because I’ve been on ATS so heavily)

KilgoreTrout said:

You must understand the British Intelligence Operations are far more compartmentalized than the US. Added to that is the fact that the British SIS was deeply divided, with those who were pro-German and those, like Churchill who were pro-US and anti-German (to an extent).

Can you give me some examples of compartmentalization of British Intelligence Operations. It would help me out.

As you mention SIS was divided, can you list a few of the people/organizations in Britain who were pro-German.
And, was this during WWII?

For example, here in the U.S. many of us know the Bush family are traitors; yet, they have been in charge of the U.S. the entire 20th Century, and now into the 21st. In Britain, are/were there similar situations?

KilgoreTrout said:

Churchill when he was made Prime Minister of the Coalition Wartime government, surrounded himself with trusted associates, those who had stood by him during the 'Wilderness years'. He did not have the power or the support to clear out those who were opposed to his view so they continued their operations. If it will assist you I would be happy to outline these divisions for you, or at least give you a little background.

Yes, I’d like you to outline the divisions for me, it would be very, very helpful. Outline of divisions preferred first, then background second in preference but also wanted.



posted on Apr, 24 2008 @ 05:32 PM
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reply to post by counterterrorist
 


response to KilgoreTrout (2-of-15)
Dave Emory is a protégé of Mae Brussells.
KilgoreTrout said:

I tend to look for factions and from that I study patterns of behaviour,
I think we have a very different outlook on the data that we come across, I seek to understand motive etc.

Generally, I’m at the moment interested in knowing any specific financial motives, i.e., who specifically profited and/or took-over what territory and/or companies and/or natural resources and/or loot.

…and, especially any motivational trends you’ve noticed.

…and, lastly, which if any of those trends you see today currently active in British Society (in Britain, and also around the world).

KilgoreTrout said:

On the 26 June 1940, a party was held at the Waldorf-Astoria to celebrate the surrender of France. In attendence was Colonel Behn, Chief Executive of International Telephone and Telegraph, James Mooney, Chief of General Motors Overseas, Edsel Ford of Ford Motors as well as executives and representives of such companies as Eastman Kodak etc. The party was hosted by Dr Gerbhard Westrick, but the guest of honour (and man who picked up the bill) was Captain Torkild Rieber whom you have covered. Reiber had helped Goering to develop Germany's Four year Economic Plan, and as you have mentioned he also he supplied oil in exchange for Hamburg tankers (3 I think). Rieber was also meeting all Westrick's expenses. He paid for the rent on his house in Scarsdale, he bought him a Buick and he deposited $5,000,000 in a San Francisco bank account for his use.

re: “etc”
I like this kind of info. (Whenever you can provide a source reference from now on, like a name of a book, please do when time permits. I think it will helpful for researchers now and in the future who come upon this post over the ten-or-more years.)



posted on Apr, 24 2008 @ 05:33 PM
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reply to post by counterterrorist
 


response to KilgoreTrout (3-of-15)
Dave Emory is a protégé of Mae Brussells.

KilgoreTrout said:

When Dulles was appointed to the OSS he moved into an office on the 38th floor of the Rockefeller building, the same office that Stephenson had run his operations from.

Very interesting.

KilgoreTrout said:

What I have 'guessed' for myself is that he [Stephenson] worked with Churchill's Anti-Communist League on operations in Russia, including Churchill's assassination attempt on Lenin.

Very exciting. I am familiar with the World Anti-Communist League, or, WACL. Since “anti-communism” was primarily a myth used to continue economic warfare (since Harriman for example financed the Bolsheviks [google Antony Sutton], and the private shareholders of the Fed – controlled by the Bank of England, founded “Ruskombank” which financed and provided U.S. state-of-the-art technology to the Soviet Union (communists) from 1923 to DATE (most likely), it’s documented by Sutton up through the Viet Nam war … where U.S. interests armed the Viet Cong at the same time U.S. soldiers were dying over there.) – Herbert Hoover … I’ll reference him later, worked for a British concern and had 1 billion dollars in czarist timber, oil, gold etc rights, before the revolution (Bank-of-England/Fed-sponsored coup d-etat orchestrated by Rothschilds, Warburgs, and City of London folks.

The World Anti-Communist League (WACL) – foreplay to 2012
According to Emory, WACL afasummary.blogspot.com...

played a significant role in the politics of the second half of the 20th century.
&

Emory's analysis focuses on the League (WACL), as the reformation of the Hitler-Goebbels Anti-Comintern of 1939-40. (The Anti-Comintern was a Third Reich-led, international consortium of fascists, fashioned by the Fuehrer and his propaganda chief. In addition to coordinating international fascist groups, it functioned as a "sales tool," with which the Nazis could use anti-communism to peddle their movement to conservatives.) [ /ex ]



posted on Apr, 24 2008 @ 05:34 PM
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reply to post by counterterrorist
 


response to KilgoreTrout (4-of-15)
Dave Emory is a protégé of Mae Brussells.

KilgoreTrout said:

It is also worth noting that when the Venona documents came out, MI5 under Peter Wright, found that a number of Soviet agents were operating within BSC. There was a huge conflict in the US between the pro-Communists and pro-Fascists, I think we know which side won, but it adds a very interesting texture to the WW2 landscape of the US.
Verona documents?
What does BSC stand for?

KilgoreTrout said: Stephenson was obviously astute enough to utilize this to his advantage, in the Italian community as well, favours could not only be bought but there was a contingent who were opposed to Mussolini and willing to assist against Germany.
This is the info I’m looking for, the competing interests within the fascist/nazi movement. Can you list and document any of the contingent (only bother to if it’s easy to find, I don’t want to eat up your time).



posted on Apr, 24 2008 @ 05:36 PM
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reply to post by counterterrorist
 


response to KilgoreTrout (5-of-15)
Dave Emory is a protégé of Mae Brussells.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

KilgoreTrout said:

Britain’s involvement in Persia began as part of the ‘Great Game’ in the first half of the 19th century. Britain considered Russian expansionism as a threat to its Jewel in the Crown, India and viewed Afghanistan as a possible staging post for an attack on India. The rest of the 19th Century saw Russia and Britain fighting over control and influence in Afghanistan.

It’s always been my understanding that the western drive east was to capture Baku oil fields (which Chevron succeeded in doing in mid-90s by helping do genocide in eastern Europe and topple the soviet regime)…

…which was an effort to march through Russia and India to wipe out (colonialize) China.

Also, the Afghanistan war(s), Pakistan war(s) and so on, are most equally concerned with capturing and controlling the heroin trafficking industry. (more on this later, soon)



posted on Apr, 24 2008 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by counterterrorist
 


response to KilgoreTrout (6-of-15)
Dave Emory is a protégé of Mae Brussells.

KilgoreTrout said:

While Britain and Russia were involved in a push-me-pull-me situation over Afghanistan a new empirical threat emerged from Germany that polarized the interests of Russia and Britain. In 1907 Alexander Izvolsky and Edward Grey signed an agreement to unite against German expansionism. Persia was divided into three zones – British, Russian and Neutral. While Russia was able to concentrate on its European territories, Britain looked to diminishing the influence of Germany in the Middle-East.

…interesting.

KilgoreTrout said:

Germany had made significant in-roads into Persia by this time. They had very good relations with the Ottomans and were in the process of building the German Baghdad Railway which promised to open up Persia to German trade, industry and technology. This was further exacerbated by the incursion of Standard Oil into the Burma fields and their courting of German industrialists.

…interesting.

KilgoreTrout said:

In 1917, the agreement between Russia and Britain became void and Britain was left to face German expansionism alone for the time being. By this time the Germans were well established in Ottoman controlled Persia and the British were busy trying to put the cat amongst the pigeons. A young historian named Thomas Edward Lawrence was posted to the Cairo Intelligence Office and proved to be just what they were looking for. Lawrence while researching his thesis on Crusader architecture had traveled extensively throughout Palestine, Syria, Iraq and Jordan, he had forged friendships with the German engineers and the Arab leaders alike. He was the epitome of being the right man, in the right place, at the right time.

…interesting.

KilgoreTrout said:

To cut a very long story short – we’ve all seen the film – Lawrence with the Arab Bureau of the British Foreign Office developed a plan to create insurgency amongst the Arabs against their Ottoman overlords. This led to the Arab revolt and eventually to the division of the Ottoman lands to mandates by the League of Nations – which was a complete stab in the back to the Arab’s hopes for self-determination and particularly to Emir Faisal who had worked with Lawrence to unite all the Arab groups.

It also meant that Britain’s trade position was preserved from both the Germans and the US in the form of Standard Oil.


…interesting. Well, if Standard oil is owned by the banks that are owned by the Bank of England & Fed – isn’t this one of the direct Nazi-related links to 2012 (you may take this as a rhetorical question to pursue my 2012 premise)

KilgoreTrout said:

After that it just gets really nasty and the tricks even dirtier….in real terms it became a fight between the British (Burmah Oil Co/BP) and the US (Standard Oil) for trading privileges which culminated in Second World War.

…interesting … very interesting.


UK/German relations in Persia
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I looked at this.



[edit on 24-4-2008 by counterterrorist]



posted on Apr, 24 2008 @ 05:38 PM
link   
reply to post by counterterrorist
 

response to KilgoreTrout (7-of-15)
Dave Emory is a protégé of Mae Brussells.

quote from KT -

Nazi supported Jewish militancy
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I looked at this & believe I am in agreement with you. One of my friends used to have a report of book that documented fascist input into the Zionist movement. As I recall, Dave Emory discusses this as well. You’ll have to go to his site].

quote from KT -


During the war many Jews in Palestine joined the British army. By war's end, the Jewish community in Palestine was well armed, well-organized, and determined to fight. The Palestinians were poorly armed, with feudal leaders.


This though takes the biscuit, I am in no way defending Britain, we have much to answer for but this is directing all the blame towards Britain for the creation of Jewish militantcy. I find it hard to believe that Shalom is so short of information. This is where Heydrich comes back in.

In 1937 Heydrich entered into negotiations with members of the Haganah Defense Organisation via Fiefel Polkes. Haganah were effectively acting as security against Arab attacks on Jewish Settlers which were precipitated by illegal land purchases and the failure of the settlers to understand the system whereby you could purchase land but not own the Olive groves planted on the land. Naturally, by denying access to crops and therefore livelihood tensions were inevitable.

Heydrich sent his “Jewish Expert” Adolf Eichmann to meet with Polkes in Palestine to discuss ways in which the illegal immigration of Jews could be increased.

The results was that Pino Ginzburg and Moshe Auerbach (who would both later become members of the newly formed Mossad) went to Berlin. There in conjunction with Heydrich’s SD and the Gestapo, Haganah set up a training camp and ‘recruited’, forceably and voluntarily young men to join in the defence of Jewish settlements in Palestine. On average 400 men were rounded up, trained and then smuggled into Palestine on a WEEKLY basis.

By late 1939, Heydrich had developed a route in conjuction with his former mentor, Admiral Canaris, Head of the Abwehr (German SIS) to take an even greater number of ‘emigrants’ directly via Hamburg and Emden under German Naval protection. This plan was cut short however with the invasion of Poland and the declaration of war from Britain. Heydrich had more pressing problems and the training camp, and emigrations petered out. 70,000 German, Czechoslovakian and Austrian Jews though had made it safely to Palestine, many of those young males, trained by the Haganah aided by Reinhard Heydrich.

I may be wrong to say this but is it fair that the US and the UK should be the only ones pointed to in the debate as to how militant Zionism originated given the above. Why do Chomsky and Shalom feel the desire to point fingers everywhere other than at Israel?

I am in no way suggesting that Chomsky’s and Shalom’s reluctance to enter into the Conspiracy theorists arena is motivated by an understanding that Israel is to blame for the attacks of 9/11, but shouldn’t Israel be subject to the same scrutiny that the US, UK and Palestinians have faced? Sadly, as is often the case, I am left with more questions than answers. But if as Chomsky asserts the US foreign policy is largely to blame, does this mean that in his eyes Israel will perpetually be a victim and therefore not responsible for its own actions of which the above, IMO, is a suitable example.

Don’t get me started on Chomsky. I called his house at lunchtime about 15 years ago and coincidentally spoke with his wife – she seemed much more sympathetic (and knowledgeable) than he. By the way, you’ve got to remember these folks didn’t want to be killed, and while he was a darling of the left, he was a living darling.





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