Are Atheists Air Brushing History?

Originally posted by riley
Absolutely I am posting the opinion of a religious leader.
A reverend is a person who's is anti-atheist by profession. of course he is going to preach against them. Try finding evidence that atheists have rewritten history from non christian sources.

Riley, exactly what are you trying to find out from a nonreligious source? Let me know and I will look it up myself in order to allow IR's headache to let up.

[edit on 3/27/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by riley


Absolutely I am posting the opinion of a religious leader.

A reverend is a person who's is anti-atheist by profession. of course he is going to preach against them. Try finding evidence that atheists have rewritten history from non christian sources.

If you had not told me i would have never known what a reverend was! thanks for the tip. If you do not accept it riley :shk: don't then. I am not trying to convince you riley. I happen to like Christian sources. ATS does not have rules against Christian sources that is your personal prejudice. :shk:

Back to the topic.... Here's a very nice little article from Christianity Today Puncturing Atheism



[edit on 3/27/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by riley
Absolutely I am posting the opinion of a religious leader.
A reverend is a person who's is anti-atheist by profession. of course he is going to preach against them. Try finding evidence that atheists have rewritten history from non christian sources.

Riley, exactly what are you trying to find out from a nonreligious source?

Was originally asking someone to prove a scientific claim they made. They would only post from a christian site called "reasons.org".

Now I would also prefer people to post from non-religious sources to prove atheists have rewritten history. Actual historical sources. Anti-gay/atheist pro-life political christian sites that have biased articles written by clergy do not count as credible sources. They are propoganda.

After finding these sources you should realise that the majority of western history has indeed been written and recorded by christians.. not atheists.

[edit on 27-3-2008 by riley]

reply to post by riley

Now I would also prefer people to post from non-religious sources to prove atheists have rewritten history.

I placed this in a comment above but you might not have seen it since it was an edit so I moved it here:

Much of what BW has posted has come from communist, non-Christian websites.

CLICK HERE to see websites that put forth the Christ Myth Hypothesis. I guarantee you that bunk didn't come from Christians.

CLICK HERE to see all sorts of non historical tripe that makes up bogus history in an effort to disprove various religious faiths and history. They bring up all sorts of terrible misinformation.

CLICK HERE to find all sorts of websites that exaggerate the death tolls of the inquisition.

Good Old Wikipedia does it, too.

MORE BUNK.

CLICK HERE for some revision about the faith of the American founding fathers.

It's all over the place, Riley. Revision, Rewriting, and Airbrushing.

And just for fun: Zeitgest, The God Who Wasn't There, and The Bible Fraud.

OMG I could sit here all day. And I'm only linking to Google and secular home pages for a reason. This will allow you to find the specific non Christian websites and information you deem 'suitable.'

Honestly it looks like Whammy brought up a bigger conspiracy than he originally realized.

[edit on 3/27/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
ATS does not have rules against Christian sources that is your personal prejudice. :shk:

I have not said ANYTHING prejudiced against christians. That site your posted as proof was in fact prejudiced against atheists and has an obvious agenda against both them and homosexuals.

[edit on 27-3-2008 by riley]

Here's a non religious source on death tolls. This guy has more information on democide than any other site I have seen to date. He has an exhaustive study of the mass murders of history. Here is a chart of the top 20th century killings

Democide: The murder of any person or people by a government, including genocide, politicide, and mass murder.



20th Century Democide

From the same site

To view this double standard from another perspective, both World Wars cost twenty-four million battle deaths. But from 1918 to 1953, the Soviet government executed, slaughtered, starved, beat or tortured to death, or otherwise killed 39,500,000 of its own people (my best estimate among figures ranging from a minimum of twenty million killed by Stalin to a total over the whole communist period of eighty-three million). For China under Mao Tse-tung, the communist government eliminated, as an average figure between estimates, 45,000,000 Chinese. The number killed for just these two nations is about 84,500,000 human beings, or a lethality of 252 percent more than both World Wars together. Yet, have the world community and intellectuals generally shown anything like the same horror, the same outrage, the same out pouring of anti-killing literature, over these Soviet and Chinese megakillings as has been directed at the much less deadly World Wars?

War Isn't the Biggest Killer


84,500,000 human beings for the two Atheist regimes of Russia and China alone. Simply horrific!



[edit on 3/27/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


before I read what you quoted [I have to go offline now] I feel I must remind you [yet again]:

Communism does not equal atheism. They are not the same thing and not interchangable concepts. Hitler was also officially a christian.

[edit on 27-3-2008 by riley]

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
ATS does not have rules against Christian sources that is your personal prejudice. :shk:

I have not said ANYTHING prejudiced against christians. That site your posted as proof was in fact prejudiced against atheists and has an obvious agenda against both them and homosexuals.

Excuse me? I didn't claim it as proof of anything. :shk:

This what I posted:

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Rev. Louis P. Sheldon Chairman, Traditional Values Coalition has this to say on the matter at hand.

Where is this alleged claim of proof riley

I have spent many many hours researching Marxism and how communist dialectics is related to Darwin's evolution today. Why don't you go after that evidence? It is all from scholarly sources and it proves the connection between evolution and communism beyond a reasonable doubt.

I have also just posted the evidence for the killings from an impeccable source. So please have at it!! The data is there, but you just make personal attacks about my Christian information. Challenge the hard data riley, let's discuss Marxist dialectics in an academic manner, I dare you!

Do you agree that the third law of communist dialectics is directly based on evolution?

Why or Why not?




[edit on 3/27/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to

post by AshleyD

 

Honestly it looks like Whammy brought up a bigger conspiracy than he originally realized.

When I wrote this thread it was after I heard Oxford Universities Dr John Lennox, a brilliant mathematician, philosopher, and scientist speak at the local seminary. Yeah, I said seminary, and by the way I went with a Pastor friend from my Church.

Dr Lennox mentioned the "airbrushing of history" by Atheists. His words.. He also said "We must not let them get away with it" I had tears in my eyes hearing this beautiful Christian man speak. I went for three days in a row. He is one of the best speakers I have ever heard in my life. I took him damn seriously about not letting them get away with it. I won't. This is my pet project for a long time believe me.



But yes Ash the conspiracy is to suppress God period and everything to do with him.



[edit on 3/27/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by riley
reply to post by riley

 

before I read what you quoted [I have to go offline now] I feel I must remind you [yet again]:

Communism does not equal atheism. They are not the same thing and not interchangable concepts. Hitler was also officially a christian.

It would be incredibly ignorant to say Communism equals atheism, riley. Who in the world said that? Not I :shk:

Please try a higher level of discourse than "this doesn't equal this." That is called straw man tactics because I never said it equaled it. To say it "equals" it is childish. You complain about data and source until you are faced with real good sources then you leave.:shk:

I make the claim that the third law of Marxist dialectics is based on evolution. I make he claim these ideas work together to create an ideology.

Why or why not?





[edit on 3/27/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by AshleyD

CLICK HERE to see websites that put forth the Christ Myth Hypothesis. I guarantee you that bunk didn't come from Christians.

This is merely a page of Google search results for the term 'pagan Christ'. AshleyD has not looked at all these sites and is merely guessing at what they contain.

CLICK HERE to find all sorts of websites that exaggerate the death tolls of the inquisition.

This is merely a page of Google search results for the term 'Inquisition atrocities'. AshleyD has not looked at all these sites and is merely guessing at what they contain.

MORE BUNK.

This is merely a page of Google search results for the term 'Jesus didn't exist'. AshleyD has not looked at all these sites and is merely guessing at what they contain.

CLICK HERE for some revision about the faith of the American founding fathers.

This is merely a page of Google search results for the term 'America is not Christian'. AshleyD has not looked at all these sites and is merely guessing at what they contain.

CLICK HERE to see all sorts of non historical tripe that makes up bogus history in an effort to disprove various religious faiths and history. They bring up all sorts of terrible misinformation.

This is a link to Infidels.org, a atheism web site. It is quite a respectable site, though not one I frequent often. It is not a history site.

Good Old Wikipedia does it, too.

This merely links to the Wikipedia home page.

It's all over the place... Revision, Rewriting, and Airbrushing.

AshleyD, AshleyD! is this the best you can do? You're the closest thing this board provides to a worthy opponent among the believers, but you'll have to raise your game a lot higher than that before you make the league.

Originally posted by riley
Science will survive this vandalism though.

On the whole, of course.

Only by facing them head-on. Do not ignore the anti-science fundie hordes. Just yesterday florida state representatives pushed a 'teach the controversy' bill. It's the new disco institute trojan horse dragged along on the wheels of the great american cry of 'freedom'.

It's not a big issue where I live, when a few Xians go native, we just throw a small mention where it belongs, in RE classes. But US education doesn't have this pleasure. Some people do want to ruin american science education to push theology.

However, could be good for the rest of the world. UK probably leads the world in some areas of biomedical science, and we have to fight off people wanting to hijack that. Already happened in the US.

................................

And don't worry about whammy's sophistry, don't feed him. The same site he is using talks of millions killed during the colonial escapades and other non-atheist regimes (e.g., almost 14 million ameri-indians 16th-19th century; 17 million during african slavery). Considering he is attempting to suggest atheism leads to immorality and mass murder, the thesis he is pushing dies on its feet by simply noting that:

Some atheists kill people, most atheists don't

Some theists kill people, most theists don't.

Ignore him, not like you're talking to someone you can have a reasonable discussion with. He can't show that communists killed for atheism, like some of faith justify death and murder by the interpretation of their little books. However, communism/marxism is very much like a religion with its own instructions for paradise etc.

ABE: you see, the nuances of these sort of discussions just appear to pass some people by.
V
V

[edit on 27-3-2008 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin
And don't worry about whammy's sophistry, don't feed him. The same site he is using talks of millions killed during the colonial escapades and other non-atheist regimes (e.g., almost 14 million ameri-indians 16th-19th century; 17 million during african slavery). Considering he is attempting to suggest atheism leads to immorality and mass murder, the thesis he is pushing dies on its feet by simply noting that:

Whooooo he said “sophistry”. You are the master of it Melvin but I am learning your tricks. This is typical having your cake and eating it too. As you atheists love to point out there is separation of church and state in the United States. That’s why we cannot teach creationism or have prayer in schools, correct? Now you want to have it the other way because it suits your tactics of avoidance. The First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof: or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

www.auburn.edu...

The United States has freedom of religion so your argument simply dies on its feet right here by me noting that.

In contrast,

The People's Republic of China was established in 1949. Its government is officially atheist, which viewed religion as emblematic of feudalism and foreign colonialism. Religious belief or practice was banned because it was regarded as backward and superstitious by some of the communist leaders, from Vladimir Lenin to Mao Zedong, who had been critical of religious institutions

en.wikipedia.org...

The People's Republic of China is officially atheist. You can spin straw all day and you will never be able to deny that simple fact.



35,286,000 dead Ooops no:

IMPORTANT NOTE: Among all the democide estimates appearing in this book, I have revised two upward. I have changed that for Mao's famine, 1958-1962, from zero to 38,000,000. And thus I have had to change the overall democide for the PRC (1928-1987) from 38,702,000 to 76,702,000.

www.hawaii.edu...

Seventy-six million seven hundred thousand and two killed by a state sponsored Atheist regime.

Originally posted by melatonin
Some atheists kill people, most atheists don't

Name an atheistic government with a good human rights record.

Originally posted by melatonin
Some theists kill people, most theists don't.

There have been quite a few terrible murders done under the banner of God. I have always conceded this. It’s just that Atheism has a far worse record.

Originally posted by melatonin
Ignore him, not like your talking to someone you can have a reasonable discussion with.

Especially, if the truth is inconvenient for your belief system.

Originally posted by melatonin
He can't show that communists killed for atheism, like some of faith justify death and murder by the interpretation of their little books.

Ah but you love to change the standard. You can not show that the crusades were killed "for" Jesus. No you can not, those people were disobeying Christ.

So I demand an equal standard. That standard is what the state adopts officially - it is only fair. You judge officially declared theist states. I'll judge atheist states. You lose every time. China is declared officially as an Atheist government.

An Atheistic government that has killed 76,702,000 people.








[edit on 3/27/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


I'd like everyone to read to the bottom of BW's latest post, re: The Crusades. First, some time ago, he asked 'What Crusades?'

NOW, he says that people were killed during the Crusades because 'they disobeyed Christ'....???!?!????

Well, now THAT is a religion I can sink my teeth into. What a wonderful picture it paints.....

reply to post by weedwhacker

Originally posted by weedwhacker
I'd like everyone to read to the bottom of BW's latest post, re: The Crusades. First, some time ago, he asked 'What Crusades?'

I was teasing you because you have not read the thread. We have already discussed the Crusades and you brought it up like it was something new. If you want to be in on the discussion you should at least bother to read the thread. :shk:

Originally posted by weedwhacker
NOW, he says that people were killed during the Crusades because 'they disobeyed Christ'....???!?!????

You will not use the ATS quote feature to prove that lie because I did not say that. You are twisting what I said. That is very deceptive. I claimed responsibility that "Christians" committed those acts. I simply qualified that statement by showing the people who did the killing were disobeying Christ.

How many deaths in he crusades weedwhacker 1.5 million, right?
How does that compare to official government sponsored Atheism in China alone with over 76 million.




[edit on 3/27/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by weedwhacker


Actually the crusades were more against those disobedient to 'the Church', Than about obedience to Christ.
It was for the holy roman empire.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Even ONE death under the guise of 'christianity' is despicable.

To somehow say that the 'christians' are better because they killed fewer people than 'aethiests' doesn't make me cheer for your side any more, it sickens me.

What the real problem is the mis-use of power, by MEN, in the name of their 'religion' (and in the lack of religion as well...).

What a person has in their heart is up to them. IT doesn't need to be validated by some old man in a pointed hat, or any other trappings of the rites and fluff that has developed to 'charm and control' the masses.

A belief in Christ is not a problem, it is beautiful. Organized worship, and how it becomes manipulative and controlling in the hands of those in power, THAT is an abomination......

Originally posted by Astyanax
This is merely a page of Google search results for the term 'pagan Christ'. AshleyD has not looked at all these sites and is merely guessing at what they contain.

Oh, Child. You have no idea. Yes. I. Have. Extensively.

This is merely a page of Google search results for the term 'Inquisition atrocities'. AshleyD has not looked at all these sites and is merely guessing at what they contain.

Absolutely wrong again.

This is merely a page of Google search results for the term 'Jesus didn't exist'. AshleyD has not looked at all these sites and is merely guessing at what they contain.

Wrong. I have had to research such things to great lengths and have seen tons of websites like this in order to refute them on my website.

This is merely a page of Google search results for the term 'America is not Christian'. AshleyD has not looked at all these sites and is merely guessing at what they contain.

So tell me, do you help out the community with the awesome psychic powers of yours? Maybe help solve murder cases? Give some poor widows the winning lotto numbers? Do you predict natural disasters and warn your neighbors to evacuate?

This is a link to Infidels.org, a atheism web site. It is quite a respectable site, though not one I frequent often. It is not a history site.

And the way they twist history with some of their articles is astounding.

This merely links to the Wikipedia home page.

Due to Riley's pickiness, you bet! Some of the misinformation Wiki has regarding many religions and history makes my mouth hang open.

AshleyD, AshleyD! is this the best you can do? You're the closest thing this board provides to a worthy opponent among the believers, but you'll have to raise your game a lot higher than that before you make the league.

Again, it was purposely done because no matter what was posted Riley would balk. So, I spoon fed him/her/it a start and will let him/her/it take it from there. Not going to play the game with Riley that others did by running around in circles posting link after link only to see the million and a half :shk: smilies.

It ain't my job.

Carry on.

EDIT: And people always accuse me of quote snipping so I guess it's my turn to be an over anal freak. You apparently missed this little tidbit when quoting my post:

"And I'm only linking to Google and secular home pages for a reason. This will allow you to find the specific non Christian websites and information you deem 'suitable.'"

I also noticed how you glanced over the specific examples I did give. Pretty typical which is why I didn't do 'the best I can do.' Only the 'most I was willing to do.' Can't make people see who don't want to see.

Upon further request, I'd love to offer up some massive ownage but for the time being, I have some greater intellectual activities to participate in like vacuuming my floor and scrubbing toilets and showers. Have a good day!

[edit on 3/27/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Bigwhammy

 

Even ONE death under the guise of 'christianity' is despicable.

I agree.

To somehow say that the 'christians' are better because they killed fewer people than 'aethiests' doesn't make me cheer for your side any more, it sickens me.

Makes me sick too. Again you misquoted me. Why can't you read the OP to see I am responding to Richard Dawkins lie that religious faith is the biggest killer? That is a lie. That's what this is about. Thats why I have proved Atheist governments like China have killed more people. It not an excuse for Christian killing it is a response to Dawkins lie.

What the real problem is the mis-use of power, by MEN, in the name of their 'religion' (and in the lack of religion as well...).

I agree.

What a person has in their heart is up to them. IT doesn't need to be validated by some old man in a pointed hat, or any other trappings of the rites and fluff that has developed to 'charm and control' the masses.

Man in a pointed hat? Oh is that a catholic slur?

I agree about control.

A belief in Christ is not a problem, it is beautiful. Organized worship, and how it becomes manipulative and controlling in the hands of those in power, THAT is an abomination......

I agree one hundred percent with that statement.
Thanks for the post.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Due to Riley's pickiness, you bet! Some of the misinformation Wiki has regarding many religions and history makes my mouth hang open.

Again, it was purposely done because no matter what was posted Riley would balk. So, I spoon fed him/her/it a start and will let him/her/it take it from there. Not going to play the game with Riley that others did by running around in circles posting link after link only to see the million and a half :shk:

smilies.

Could you please STOP speaking about me like crap please? These personal attacks are starting to piss me right off and I am not comfortable replying now as you and others have made it too hostile to post. Ease up on the snipes and nasty edits.

[edit on 27-3-2008 by riley]