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Are Atheists Air Brushing History?

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posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 07:06 PM
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reply to post by melatonin
 


Leader: Joseph Stalin

Religion: Atheism

The Soviet dictator said, "You know, they are fooling us, there is no God... all this talk about God is sheer nonsense." - E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the life of Stalin



Communism was a comprehensive, all-embracing religion and not simply a political party, political system or philosophy. This fact is illustrated by the numerous ways in which Communism embraced and attempted to promulgate peculiar quasi-religious (and often clearly anti-scientific) beliefs which had nothing all to do with politics or government. Although Communism typically touted itself as anti-religious and pro-science, it was, in fact, deeply anti-scientific and clearly a religion. One of Communism's hallmarks in the Soviet Union and China was its aggressive and violent suppression of other religions. Communism was "anti-religious" only in the sense that it forcibly suppressed all religions other than itself. From: Colin MacCabe, Godard: A Portrait of the Artist at Seventy, Farrar, Straus and Giroux: New York (2003), page 398:


It is this dual allegiance to the philosophy of science and the Communist Party which explains Althusser's lack of publications in the fifties. In the late forties a Soviet, Lyssenko, challenged Darwinism by arguing for the inheritance of acquired characteristics. Stalin backed the fraudulent scientist and argued for a distinction between proletarian and bourgeois science so that science itself became a function of the class struggle. Communist philosophers and scientists were pressured to back both Lyssenko and the philosophical distinction in a campaign whcih effectively severed any serious links between scientists and the Communist movement.


www.adherents.com...

[edit on 3/27/2008 by Bigwhammy]




posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 07:21 PM
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Ancient Egyptian Stone Technology
www.theglobaleducationproject.org...


In the Cairo museum and in other museums around the world there are examples of stone ware that were found in and around the step pyramid at Saqqarra. Petrie also found pieces of similar stoneware at Giza. There are several special things about these bowls, vases and plates.





These bowls and stone dishes/platters are some of the finest ever found, and they are from the earliest period of ancient Egyptian civilization. They are made from a variety of materials - from soft, such as alabaster, all the way up the hardness scale to very hard, such as granite.





Stoneware such as this has not been found from any later era in Egyptian history - it seems that the skills necessary were lost.

Some delicate vases are made of very brittle stone such as schist (like a flint) and yet are finished, turned and polished, to a flawless paper thin edge - an extraordinary feat of craftsmanship.

At least one piece is so flawlessly turned that the entire bowl (about 9" in diameter, fully hollowed out including an undercut of the 3in opening in the top) balances perfectly (the top rests horizontally when the bowl is placed on a glass shelf) on a round tipped bottom no bigger than the size and shape of the tip of a hen's egg !

This requires that the entire bowl have a symmetrical wall thickness without any substantial error! (With a base area so tiny - less than .15 " sq - any asymmetry in a material as dense as granite would produce a lean in the balance of the finished piece.) This kind of skill will raise the eyebrows of any machinist. To produce such a piece in clay would be very impressive. In granite it is incredible.

Other pieces turned out of granite, porphory or basalt are fully hollowed with narrow undercut flared openings, and some even have long necks. Since we have yet to reproduce such pieces it is safe to say that the techniques or machinery they employed to produce these bowls has yet to be replicated.




Lathe Turned Stone
www.theglobaleducationproject.org...

Tube Drilling
www.theglobaleducationproject.org...

Our ancient past isn't nearly as mundane as they would have you believe.

[edit on 27-3-2008 by undo]



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 08:07 PM
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Where Is Atheism When Bad Things Happen?


by Dinesh D'Souza


Notice something interesting about the aftermath of the Virginia Tech shootings? Atheists are nowhere to be found. Every time there is a public gathering there is talk of God and divine mercy and spiritual healing. Even secular people like the poet Nikki Giovanni use language that is heavily drenched with religious symbolism and meaning.

The atheist writer Richard Dawkins has observed that according to the findings of modern science, the universe has all the properties of a system that is utterly devoid of meaning. The main characteristic of the universe is pitiless indifference. Dawkins further argues that we human beings are simply agglomerations of molecules, assembled into functional units over millennia of natural selection, and as for the soul--well, that's an illusion!

To no one's surprise, Dawkins has not been invited to speak to the grieving Virginia Tech community. What this tells me is that if it's difficult to know where God is when bad things happen, it is even more difficult for atheism to deal with the problem of evil. The reason is that in a purely materialist universe, immaterial things like good and evil and souls simply do not exist. For scientific atheists like Dawkins, Cho's shooting of all those people can be understood in this way--molecules acting upon molecules.

If this is the best that modern science has to offer us, I think we need something more than modern science.

news.aol.com...



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 08:41 PM
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reply to post by undo
 




Great post undo. That is what I was talking about with the pyramid stones. It certainly supports the idea that history has been suppressed. Are you aware of the Merneptah Stele? A stele is a stone slab for commemorative purposes. It was errected by ancient Egyptian king Amenhotep III, but it was later inscribed by Merneptah ( circa 1213 to 1203 BC). Anyway the cool thing about it is that it completely supports the accuracy of the Biblical account because it describes battle with Israel. It shows the existence of Israel in the land of Canaan by that date.

reference:
wiki



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 08:43 PM
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It should come as no surprise to UFO sighters and abductees, that the community is so rigidly split along these lines. Part of the problem is that
the skepticism about the past was initially a catholic belief, as part and parcel of their belief in the supremacy of the pope and catholicism. they were, afterall, in charge of the entire planet for at least a millenia and had inherited all the wealth and power of the pagan roman empire before them, and the grecian empire before them, and the medo-persian before them, all the way back to the babylonian empire.

They were invincible.

Nothing was true unless they said so, and they were in the business of taking new lands and rehabilitating the natives to catholicism, where they learned whatever it was the current pope felt they needed to know. so when these catholic professors who were the german higher critics got to the task of removing all doubt of their superiority, they mistakenly concluded other ancient histories were fake, which wasn't true.

now follow along with me a moment. protestantism was beginning to gain ground. people were reading the bible for the first time and realizing catholicism didn't follow huge portions of it. so the papacy was beginning to lose power and influence in a way they couldn't control to begin with. before that, they were like pharaohs, human gods, which is how they translated the text about becoming sons of God.

out of this split came four distinct and powerful groups: protestants/catholics and pagans/atheists. all of these were originally influenced so heavily by catholicism that they continued many of the same traditions, which were themselves, borrowed originally from the pagans. so what we ended up with were a bunch of skeptics who viewed the world and the universe precisely as the catholic church did, which was itself just coming out of the dark ages.

the german higher critics, who were the professors and teachers of the new wave of atheism, still based their science on many of the old catholic beliefs. this caused all manner of problems. however, where they didn't share the catholic belief on science, they tossed out the baby with the bath water, as a result of knee jerk reaction.

now they were functioning with science that believed everything was mundane. man was the pinnacle of everything (a catholic teaching which was demonstrated in the belief that Christ and the Holy Spirit took a back seat to pope and priests). so today, you still have huge gruops of catholics, atheists , protestants and even pagans, who think the universe is still a very mundane and mechanical place.

[edit on 27-3-2008 by undo]



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 09:14 PM
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a few researchers even believe the papacy is behind atheism and communism via the divide and conquer concept, in the guise of the black pope and the white pope.

the black pope is the jesuit general, who is the only person on earth the white pope can confess to, so he has all the same temporal power as the white pope (and perhaps more). in this fashion, they can remove enemies to their power, in various ways. like the whole democrat-republican interplay.

if this is true, the verses in Revelation about "was, is not and yet is", may very well indicate the pope is still in charge of the planet as a political entity and not just a religious entity, the holy roman empire never really died in that scenario. the black pope is in charge of some military org and a handful of brotherhoods, he makes sure people follow the wishes of the papacy (kinda like, "he exercises all the power of the other and causes all to worship the beast that was is not yet is"). worship means to "work for..." so it's entirely possible the entire planet is still working for the papacy, even the atheists.

a rather disturbing thought

www.thewatcherfiles.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.remnantofgod.org...


[edit on 27-3-2008 by undo]



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 09:22 PM
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Originally posted by undo

now they were functioning with science that believed everything was mundane. man was the pinnacle of everything (a catholic teaching which was demonstrated in the belief that Christ and the Holy Spirit took a back seat to pope and priests). so today, you still have huge groups of catholics, atheists , protestants and even pagans, who think the universe is still a very mundane and mechanical place.



Kind of like todays Catholic position on evolution. It is a marriage of science and spiritual. They allow for evolution of the physical body but they hold on to the concept of the soul. Another compromise position.


Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution.

Catholic.com




[edit on 3/27/2008 by Bigwhammy]



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 09:29 PM
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. so today, you still have huge gruops of catholics, atheists , protestants and even pagans, who think the universe is still a very mundane and mechanical place.

[edit on 27-3-2008 by undo]
I dunno about other Atheists, but I don't find the universe to be mundane at all. Mechanical yes, I'm glad it's mechanical, that means it's reliable,consistent, and possible to understand. I find the universe to be exciting and fantastic, just think of all the other worlds and sights to see, and things yet to be discovered. I'm also happy believing that this little speck of sand and its little ants called humans isn't playing the starring role. How egotistical to think we are the central characters in all the vast cosmos. go out in the woods, lift up a rock, and imagine all the little germs and microorganisms busy reproducing themselves. That's us.

[edit on 27-3-2008 by Gigatronix]



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 09:39 PM
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Originally posted by Gigatronix


You don't really think Atheists are winning this battle do you? How can Atheist hope to execute any kind of conspiracy when they are so overwhelmingly outnumbered and the powerful people in the world generally subscribe to some kind of religion?


[edit on 27-3-2008 by Gigatronix]


8-9 months ago,, when topics came up bashing Christians, Atheist's would be in there and at the time I didn't really know why they would even be there since I had always thought they just didn't believe and that was fine with me. Then I started seeing them on the ASU Campus getting right in peoples faces saying the most outrageous rude statements and most were not students. I would see this on more and more blogs where it got to the point where you just couldn't escape it anymore. Back then I was dabbling in 911 discussions and military areas I had experience in but found the 911 discussions to be an endless loop of two powder keg groups very much like these two. The difference was the 911 arguments got so polluted with dis-information, new theory every week some getting so far out there only hurting an already injured 911 truther reputation as a very rigid, dogmatic, group of self proclaimed Scholars allegedly in engineering were coming out of the wood work. It was a lot like the way Atheists would assume this aura of having the academic advantage. One thing I noticed was the fastest growing threads seemed to be blaming Christians for everything and I do mean everything, from Bloodthirsty expansionism where saw we were killing everyone in our Path, to inventing torture to killing all the native Americans, the Black Slave Trade, Hitler, all the way to restless leg syndrome. If it was bad, then you can bet there were a group of Atheists, blaming Christians and Christianity on it.

I would watch the Christians argue and, for lack of a better word, they simply looked pathetic in my view. Many would leave the argument within 4 or 5 posts, APOLOGIZING to this group of Atheists where they had many of them so confused and discouraged that they started staying away from their own threads as soon as the career Atheist Forum Warriors came in.

I would make a post here and their using my carefully composed tact and diplomacy which inevitably would have them all reminding me,, I am a Christian and I was not acting as obsequiously as the others, while Christians were sending me u2u gently advising me that I was not going to lead any one to the lord the way I was doing it. Others who liked the idea that I had no shame in my game, would ask me to respond to this guy, or that guy etc. Christians did NOT know ,,,nearly as much as the Atheists did, were not nearly as confident, were trying to be respectful, sweet and nice to a group whose, I idea of Reciprocity in that regard was to ridicule them with extreme prejudice telling them in the most creative command of the English Language, where they could insert the fundie kindness or apologies. I swear they had them apologising for ever being born.

The thing that struck me as odd was the similarities I saw in Atheism and Christianity when it came to behaviour, Christians tried much harder to use a softer approach where Atheist would lay on the back handed insults and never never never did they ever say as much as " I see your point," I mean it was no mercy no quarter.

I was being asked to get more data on this sudden surge in Atheism and bought all the best popular books while the Church would pay my travel expenses to attend many of the lectures, and I had joined one of the AZ Atheists organizations too. I had decided that Atheists were a juggernaut of angst aggression with an axe to grind and a very methodical plan using short range goals to achieve the objective for their longrange worldview.

My Church was on the edge of falling into a Congregational Coma if they didn't start taking this very serious. I had sent many very long u2u's to as many of the Christian members I could, most of them giving me turn the other cheek wisdom and for me to pray for them..

I did pray, a lot,, but not for Atheist, I prayed that Christians would get their .s out of their butts and hit the books on very specific topics both secular and Christian. I started to find other Christians who felt as alarmed at this movement as I did. I don't know if we are their yet but I have noticed one thing, I am very proud of those Christians like Clear Skies, Idle Rocker who at one time were so intimidated to post and now show a confidence that warms my heart.


We pretty much know what we need to work on, and I thank Atheists for putting a fire in our faith so strong and getting stronger that at least I know if Atheists want to bash on us,,, we are going to make them earn it and it IS going to cost them.


I was and probably still am, one of the least intelligent Christians in this forum when it comes to doctrine and many areas of apologetics, I have sharpened my sword on the Iron Will of Maddness, and Raised the bar for the quality of my research knowing if I am going to post in response to the likes of Mel,, I can never prepare enough. So all in all,, I am very grateful for the experience and have no animosity for any Atheists while a couple I hope they get well soon.


Warm Regards

- Con



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 09:42 PM
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Wow, have I missed a lot in this thread! I've read everything I've missed, but will refrain from responding to the many posts I felt warranted a response since my absence, due to the fact that it's basically old news. (Since we're almost on page 60 now!)


Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Kind of like todays Catholic position on evolution. It is a marriage of science and spiritual. They allow for evolution of the physical body but they hold on to the concept of the soul. Another compromise position.


I think it's logical to say that one day, when the human race has reached a level of intelligence adequate enough, science and religion will meld into one. If true science cannot verify religion, religion is false. If a true religion cannot verify science, science is false. (This is my belief based on the idea that "religion" refers to the things we simply don't understand yet, not the things which are "supernatural", [see the quote in my signature].) I think that eventually the human race will learn enough through science to debunk the mythical aspects of dogmatic religions, and verify the aspects of religions and myths which were meant to be metaphorical. (This is based on my theory that religions are half right in what they believe, in that the stories they tell often teach good things, or teach history, that a great deal of fictional liberty has been taken and the foundations of the systems are more allegorical than literal.) One day, science and religion will become one. It will be a great step towards unifying the human race and helping to create peace on Earth. If it doesn't happen, then God help us all! (Bad joke...)


Originally posted by Gigatronix
I dunno about other Atheists, but I don't find the universe to be mundane at all. Mechanical yes, I'm glad it's mechanical, that means it's reliable,consistent, and possible to understand. I find the universe to be exciting and fantastic, just think of all the other worlds and sights to see, and things yet to be discovered. I'm also happy believing that this little speck of sand and its little ants called humans isn't playing the starring role. How egotistical to think we are the central characters in all the vast cosmos. go out in the woods, lift up a rock, and imagine all the little germs and microorganisms busy reproducing themselves. That's us.


Ah, aren't life and the Universe grand?! This is why I consider myself more of a pantheist than an atheist! I feel that life is too incredible to just let everything be referred to as "nothingness". I believe that "God" refers to the laws which govern the Universe, and that "God" is the reason we are all here. (But I am an atheist because I do not believe in a supreme being. God, to me, is just what I refer to as the Alpha and Omega, if you will. God is in all things, God is all things. The Universe is incredible! And it's all Natural phenomena, in my humble opinion.! And despite my reference to Christian scripture, the modern idea of a Christian God is nothing close to what I mean as the Alpha and Omega... Einstein's idea of God was closer to my own, but I suppose I shouldn't bring him up again as that didn't go well...)

Edit to add two very important words, both "true"...

[edit on 27/3/08 by an3rkist]



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 09:57 PM
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reply to post by an3rkist
 



This is my belief based on the idea that "religion" refers to the things we simply don't understand yet, not the things which are "supernatural"


Hey I agree with that. Supernatural is just natural that we don't understand. I sort of agree with the catholics position on evolution actually. I allow for the possibility our bodies were created through that mechanism. It just has not been proven and the scientists are arrogant to pretend it has been. I doubt the human race will live long enough to become enlightened to the point science and religion peacefully coexist, although it is a nice sentiment.



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 10:00 PM
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reply to post by an3rkist
 


an3arkist, you get a star from me, since you put your point so plainly, and still said what I tried to say, much better than I could have!!

Very nice job, thanks!!!

Tim/WW



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 10:01 PM
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reply to post by Conspiriology
 

I certainly am saddened to see anyone attacking anyones faith, I think it's pretty unneccessary. As far as forum posters go, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people bashing you are are ignorant people that just wanna do whatevers cool at the moment. probably a lot used the same tired arguments, the same tired cliches, and resort to vomiting out the same tired insults when their nonsense is exposed. I'm sure people around the world are doing this, and I'm sure there are some that are actually pretty smart otherwise, but dumb when it comes to shut the hell up and let people believe what they want and mind your own business. I'm talking about Atheists mind you.

If you are pushing the creationist or intelligent design stuff, sorry but that aint gonna fly.The scientists have spoken, and the majority are rolling with evolution. I'm not gonna take what they say as fact, but I'm gonna put a lot more credence in a theory from someone who makes a living studying these things than someone who wants me to believe in something based on myths and legends(which I consider the bulk of religion to be). If it were up to me, neither evolution or ID would be taught in school. Study it as an elective in college if you want to.Problem solved.

The point is, they aren't choosing to evolution to spite you. They are teaching science, and evolution is based on science, that's why most scientists approve of it, and the courts apparently do too. Religion has no place in a public school curriculum, science does, thats why they choose evolution and not ID.

And for the last time, teh Atheists aren't out to get you! What are we, the boogeymen of the 21st century? Yeah people are out protesting, and yelling at you, and trying to mess with your .. That's what weird people do, don't take it personally.



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 10:06 PM
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Originally posted by Gigatronix
I dunno about other Atheists, but I don't find the universe to be mundane at all. Mechanical yes, I'm glad it's mechanical, that means it's reliable,consistent, and possible to understand. I find the universe to be exciting and fantastic, just think of all the other worlds and sights to see, and things yet to be discovered. I'm also happy believing that this little speck of sand and its little ants called humans isn't playing the starring role. How egotistical to think we are the central characters in all the vast cosmos. go out in the woods, lift up a rock, and imagine all the little germs and microorganisms busy reproducing themselves. That's us.


Something like that.

What I meant by mechanical is: nothing that can't be explained ever happens. If it does, the person who it happened to is obviously crazy, drugged,
delusional, believes in falsehoods, and so on. Miracles don't happen, and if they do, there's a mundane explanation, which can be both true and false, but which atheism insists is always true - all miracles are mundane. Baby and bath water, whoosh out the window.

It's odd, doncha think that so many little details about what would happen after the vision of John on Patmos, which culminated in the Book of Revelation, actually did happen? This guy was having a vision of the future. At one point, it was so obvious and precise and yet missing key points, it came to me that perhaps the world's leaders were deliberately using it as a playbook, but getting some of the details wrong -- like a way to manipulate public opinion. So that by the time the final pieces fit together, half the eschatologists will be so confused they won't recognize what's going on (a place we have arrived at, i do believe) cause they'll still be following the one that's being artificially manufactured for the benefit of those who are actually paying attention.



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 10:06 PM
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Originally posted by Gigatronix

. so today, you still have huge gruops of catholics, atheists , protestants and even pagans, who think the universe is still a very mundane and mechanical place.

[edit on 27-3-2008 by undo]
I dunno about other Atheists, but I don't find the universe to be mundane at all. Mechanical yes, I'm glad it's mechanical, that means it's reliable,consistent, and possible to understand. I find the universe to be exciting and fantastic, just think of all the other worlds and sights to see, and things yet to be discovered. I'm also happy believing that this little speck of sand and its little ants called humans isn't playing the starring role. How egotistical to think we are the central characters in all the vast cosmos. go out in the woods, lift up a rock, and imagine all the little germs and microorganisms busy reproducing themselves. That's us.

[edit on 27-3-2008 by Gigatronix]


Hi Gig,

It was exactly your way of thinking that led me to my faith. I kept searching for reasons why the universe acted in such reliable consistency that it led me to study more about astronomy and the formation of the universe. The more I learned, the stronger my faith became. I still have a lot more to learn (with an open mind of course), but there are universal laws that hold everything together with such fine-tuning, I just couldn't imagine that everything happened by accident. When you look at things like the fact that the earth is in exactly the right place at exactly the right time to support life, it's just too difficult to discount a design or designer.

I appreciate your thought processes, Gig, because you make sense.

Thanks Con, I appreciate your vote of confidence.


Sorry, if I'm off topic yet once again.



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 10:16 PM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I doubt the human race will live long enough to become enlightened to the point science and religion peacefully coexist, although it is a nice sentiment.


Well not with that attitude, it won't!


All it will take is open minds from every end of the spectrum. If we can all learn tolerance for each other's beliefs, and open our minds to other possibilities, we have a fighting chance to accomplish it before our demise, (Armageddon or what have you...) Bah! You're right, we're screwed.

I solidified some thoughts thanks to the conversations in this thread that faith in one's own belief being superior to that of others' beliefs is the evil at work in all atrocities committed on minuscule or grand scales. Atheists can blame Christianity for the Inquisition and other genocides, Christians can blame Atheists for Mao, but it's the individuals who are to blame, not the dogmas, (or lack thereof), that they subscribed to. I'm probably sounding like a broken record, but I can't stress enough how much I believe this to be true. Haters from both sides are dangerous to humanity.

And in reply to a post by Skyfloating, I believe, I plan on writing a book on what I've learned from this thread. It'll have to wait a little while, though, since I have five other books that need to be written first. So much work, so little time...

[edit on 27/3/08 by an3rkist]



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 10:21 PM
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reply to post by undo
 



So higher criticism treats the Bible as just a text created by human beings; for human motives. Which is in contrast with the treatment of the Bible as the inerrant word of God?

See I think the original texts were inerrant, but we do not have those; so we have to employ aspects of criticism to decipher the true intentions of the author. Also to understand the pentatuch one needs to think like an ancient Hebrew. For instance the word earth in Genesis 1 makes people think of our planet, when the author probably intended it to mean dirt.

Now how far this criticism get taken makes a huge difference...



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 10:23 PM
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reply to post by undo
 
I don't buy into the if it can't be explained it doesn't happen. I don't think any scientist really believes that either, because if they did what would be their motivation to go out and discover the answers? If we can't explain something, then we get to work trying to figure out, not just saying "well I don't get it so it must be Gods miracle." So far science has been able to explain alot of things previously thought to be miracles or the work of God. If it hasn't yet, it doesn't mean it someday wont, give it time! If man is anything, he's determined to figure everything out so he can exploit it hehe. Hence nuclear weapons, engineered virus', steroids, and countless other exploitations made possible by science.



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 10:23 PM
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Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis.

This is a common social engineering tactic. Two quarreling factions, out of which a smaller group emerge who have agreed to bury the hatchet.
A compromise, if you will.

Unfortunately, we here in the US have been synthesized almost to the brink of destruction. Not that homogenization is bad, in and of itself, but the minds behind the force that is working this have one goal in mind and it ultimately is not peace or synthesis.



posted on Mar, 27 2008 @ 10:25 PM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


Oh yeah! the whole earth thing! yeppers,that's exactly what it meant. probably dirt from a totally different planet, too!




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