Originally posted by Gigatronix
I will just say this about Dawkins. He is not one of my heroes, nor do I care to listen to his ideas, because they don't reinforce my own.

Actually I haven't read or watched his work past snippets here and there. I still get accused of worshiping him though. The first time I heard of him was from radical christians.

As far as BW's videos go, they are all about shock value and nothing more. They were tasteless, biased, served no purpose other than to drive the wedge further bewteen two groups of people. Unfortunately I can't respond with my own disgusting videos of people burning at the stake, being slaughtered by crusaders, and various other atrocities because we didnt have video cameras back then. Even if we did I probably wouldnt do it, because I dont believe it would prove anything or help the situation.

The gore in those vids has nothing to do with athiesm.. it's just put in there to misslead and offend people.. it's nice a mod put a warning [of gore] there and all but a bit late.. it only made the T&C alot more blurrier.

At least with the crusades and burnings there is historical record that it actually happened. The pope actually apologised for it so people can't pretend atheists are somehow "air brushing" that in.. anymore than we "air brush" in the millions of dollars of compensation the vatican is paying out to thousands of sex abuse victims. How about abuse in orphanges as well? how about the stolen generation in Australia commited in co-operation of government and missionaries? How about the vatican formally endorsing hitler's political power? All these atrocities are on public and on church record. What are atheists being accused of airbrushing in? We do not deny there are atrocities commited in the name of communism.. the only "air brushing" that is happening is some radical christians trying to convince people that atheism and communism are the same thing. Thats not only willfully ignorant but false and no amount of propoganda, gory videos, bs stats [..catholic girls less likely to commit suicide than abuse victims ] or biggoted posts will make it true. NO communist leader has ever said "I do this in the name of atheism.".. [which is just a non belief in deities] however plenty of world leaders have mentioned god in the speaches.

This following post is very relevent to the communist/atheist misconception but had gotten buried on the last page so I am quoting the whole thing as there have not been many first hand accounts in this thread on communism.

I sincerely hope it does not get ignored as she/he made some very valuable points based on actual experience and real knowledge.. things that should be embraced at ATS.. not swept aside in preference for the hateful ravings on youtube.

Originally posted by realshanti
Okies I'm going to burst a bubble here - not all communists are athiests - I know this from very personal experience....I am not an atheist and never was one yet I was for many years a "communist"...as were many other believers during the years I was involved - this is even more true in central and south amercia...I organized among many folks from those regions...now I am no longer affiliated, because in the final analysis I could not reconcile the means to justify the ends - but let me tell you why I and so many other believers were in fact part of the dreaded "C" movement....because our governments failed to do the right thing, failed to alleviate the suffering of the poor, the disenfranchised, failed to oppose dictators whose crimes would reach from here to the moon, failed at every turn to practice the "christian" principles they flapped on about endlessly but never exhibited in practice....we felt there was no where else to turn except to armed struggle....why do you think Bishop Romero was shot down in cold blood??? Because he assissted the rebels, gave them sanctuary and spoke for the poor....

What I have found is that God's people are found in every corner of the world and of every description - there is no template for the sons of God - even those who call themselves athiests may one day find themselves of a different mind, a spiritual mind....Hence " I have sheep you know not of" says Yeshua.....bigwhammy, I truly appreciate your concern for the truth of the gospel, you are a fierce warrior for the truth - but please temper this with the knowledge that while sowing the seed is yours to do, the harvest is not yours to control...
with great Love in Christ
realshanti

Very interesting post realshant. Personally speaking I understand the "idea" behind communism but can't agree with it as I believe it is unrealistically idealistic. Human beings are naturally corrupt, selfish and a hierarchial species and are incapable of having a truly fair system.. "fair government" is an oxymoron to me.

[edit on 30-6-2008 by riley]

No where once did any one ever say atheism and communism are the same thing. Not even a very good straw man at that. But there is no arguing that the communist dictatorships are all atheist and propagated atheist propaganda on the people. That's the point you atheists like to airbrush out of history. Those videos are refuting the tired old atheist lie that religion is the cause of the worlds wars. Since you can't refute that fact - you just whine a way with the special pleading fallacy. Have some cheese and crackers.

The pope actually apologised for it so people can't pretend atheists are somehow "air brushing" that in.. anymore than we "air brush" in the millions of dollars of compensation the vatican is paying out to thousands of sex abuse victims

Thanks for making my point. They are not airbrushing like atheists do- they are taking responsibility and apologizing. The church at least acknowledges it made mistakes and is accountable. Atheists on the other hand want us to believe atheism has nothing to do with the wrongs done by atheists - Thats the airbrushing.

[edit on 6/30/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by realshanti
Thats my story and I'm stickin to it

And a great story it is realashanti. As an Atheist, I can respect your position,feelings, and wishes. If anyone believes something that becomes a core part of their being and influences their behavior for the better, then more power to them. Whether it's religion,atheism,agnostic, whatever, if someone has found something they can really believe in and make a positive difference, I shall encourage them and support them. Just because you believe in God and I don't doesn't mean our ideas on life and spirituality aren't compatible. There's no reason why we couldn't sit down and have a very insightful talk about things that matter most. For some reason it seems popular that we should have to explain away something, or rationalize this and "airbrush" over something. These things we're trying to defend and spin are human exploits that deviated from the path. There's no need to try to convince each other of anything, there's nothing wrong with disagreeing on big bang theory, evolution, scripture, whatever, it's all a personal choice anyway. You may say you subscribe to a particular brand of worldview, but we all know our real ideas are a little grayer. That's the beauty of it all, we can all share ideas and take new information and factor it in to what we already know and our knowledge might just evolve a little bit.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Tying this all back into the original post, I was finally able to watch the Dawkins vs. Lennox debate today (thanks for mailing it to me, Whammy!). Lennox called out Dawkins for his statements concerning religion and the damage it has done to society. Lennox accused Dawkins for his attempt to 'airbrush history' (his exact wording) by sweeping atheistic atrocities under the rug. It was pretty fascinating when he spoke of all the damage the atheistic regimes did to churches, clergy, and their own countrymen. He also pointed out the 'blind pitiless indiference' statement Dawkins made concerning a naturalist approach and how it devalues human life and makes morals relative. It made me think of this thread and thought I'd share. I'm not sure why I see more whining occurring in this thread instead of a rebuttal or discussion of the arguments.

AshleyD is right, let's not go off topic. AshleyD is a respected poster in ATS, her comments always makes me see things much clearer. Her post above clearly requires this thread to be changed to "Dawkins Attempts To Air Brushing History". To title this thread "Are Atheists Air Brushing History?" and continue making unfair statements that “Atheists are air brushing history” is a tragedy.

Realshanti, you have suffered and you speak from the heart. I am also a man of God and gone through a lot of personal sufferings too. I don’t want to go off topic with the story of my life, I will leave it on another occasion, perhaps I will even start a thread. In here, I side my honourable Atheist friends because I believe it is my duty to God to deny ignorance and fight prejudice. Everyday I am given choices, I make my decision based on what is right, not on prejudices. Since the bible has taught you well, and you don’t have much to fear, Realshanti, can you state your grounds regarding this thread, in the interest of fairness? Do you think this thread with all the negative inference about Atheists is fair, just or right? Do you recognise there are Atheists who had contributed to humankind? Don’t you agree this thread should be entitled "Dawkins Attempt To Air Brushing History"? Do you condone the OP’s style of "educating" us ATS members?

My point is, I would have staunchly condemned Richard Dawkins if the OP had entitled the thread appropriately. But the OP does not seem to be interested in building a case against Richard Dawkins, all I see is a thread designed to bash Atheists.




[edit on 6-7-2008 by Gigantopithecus]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
No where once did any one ever say atheism and communism are the same thing.

[edit on 6/30/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

There is an undeniable unity between Atheism, the theory of evolution, and communism. Evolution claims that life is the product of blind chance, we are not made in the image of a divine creator, and we are simply animals. Evolution is the scientific support system for atheism. Communism is an atheist political ideology. It is for that reason firmly tied to Darwinism. More importantly, the theory of evolution proposes that development in nature is due to violence and conflict (survival of the fittest). This “natural selection” mechanism supports the concept of 'dialectics' which is a fundamental tenant of communist totalitarianism as witnessed in the 20th century.

[edit on 3/21/2008 by Bigwhammy]

So much for credibility, critical thinking and persuasive argument, aye Riley?

[edit on 6-7-2008 by Gigantopithecus]

Originally posted by Gigantopithecus

Realshanti, you have suffered and you speak from the heart. I am also a man of God and gone through a lot of personal sufferings too. I don’t want to go off topic with the story of my life, I will leave it on another occasion, perhaps I will even start a thread. In here, I side my honourable Atheist friends because I believe it is my duty to God to deny ignorance and fight prejudice. Everyday I am given choices, I make my decision based on what is right, not on prejudices. Since the bible has taught you well, and you don’t have much to fear, Realshanti, can you state your grounds regarding this thread, in the interest of fairness? Do you think this thread with all the negative inference about Atheists is fair, just or right? Do you recognise there are Atheists who had contributed to humankind? Don’t you agree this thread should be entitled "Dawkins Attempt To Air Brushing History"? Do you condone the OP’s style of "educating" us ATS members?

My point is, I would have staunchly condemned RicThe Phard Dawkins if the OP had entitled the thread appropriately. But the OP does not seem to be interested in building a case against Richard Dawkins, all I see is a thread designed to bash Atheists.

hmmm...I would have thought my preceding posts had made my position clear but -
I agree that titling the thread differently might have made for a less negative "tit for tat" discussion between believers and atheists....I tend to stay away from discussions that turn into two agendas laying out their particular "apologetics" - Yeshua tells us to let our "yes be yes and our no be no" so unless I am guided by the Spirit to contribute I keep my own counsel....I agree that some folk who claim to be atheists have contributed to the wellbeing of their fellow humans...and by the same token some folk who claim to be christians (whatever that is - Yeshua said He gave us "the power to become sons of God" - He never said he gave us the power to become "christians" and that is a term used only once in the Bible by the enemies of the sons of god) have contributed to the suffering of their fellow humans - but the reverse of this is also true....

To put it simply - It is the Word of God that transforms - not my "opinion" of the Word of God, not my interpretation of the Word of God, not my opinion of Atheism, nor my take on our current cultural evils....The Word of God is the agent that transforms a natural mind into a spiritual mind...the manner of delivery is subject to the spirit of the man who gives it but the Word itself is the power of creation, of life...

Isa 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper [in the thing] for which I sent it.








[edit on 6-7-2008 by realshanti]