Problem Lodge....

reply to post by HDFACTORYCERTIF


Thanks HD.

We're square then, Intrepid? I told you I already had his permission.

I wouldn't have made the offer to forward it to anyone otherwise.

To the distressed Brother: of course there is. This has already been demonstrated I hope, and good luck to you.

Originally posted by The Axeman
We're square then, Intrepid?

Hey, are you trying to paint me as a Mason?

It's all good, let's keep it off of the board though. If he had wanted it there he would have put it there. Probably didn't need to say that but I'm anal about things. Hate loose ends.

And thanks for your patience.

If this REALLY is happening then it is something that must be dealt with immediately. I am happy that the OP has decided to verify his identity - and if this is true - then I will apologize for calling this a joke. Given how the OP described the situation, I am sure that it can be seen why I would say such things...

[edit on 26-11-2007 by LightinDarkness]

I believe that this group of lodge officers mocking the ritual by acting like monkeys is reflected by their belief that the obligations are meaningless. That sets the direction of "there is no rules".
The Grand lodge not addressing this, sets in stone that there are no rules of conduct in the entire state.
RacerX and I met several times with the Grand Master regarding all aspects of what has taken place. He had assured us that these issues will be dealt with, however he buckled under pressure from one of the rites, of whom the main instigator of monkeyism had or has a very high rank in.
It is always said there is no higher then 3rd degree. In this state or lodge in question, this has proven to be not true. The Grand Lodge did admit that the pressure from one of the rites. caused them to back down.
RacerX and I made the decision not to enter either rite because of the fighting between them. It would indicate to me that the rites have more clout then Grand lodge.
Sort of along the line of Rodney Dangerfield. "I went to a fight and a Mason lodge broke out".

[edit on 26-11-2007 by HDFACTORYCERTIF]

Originally posted by HDFACTORYCERTIF
It is always said there is no higher then 3rd degree. In this state or lodge in question, this has proven to be not true. The Grand Lodge did admit that the pressure from one of the rites. caused them to back down.
RacerX and I made the decision not to enter either rite because of the fighting between them. It would indicate to me that the rites have more clout then Grand lodge.

I guess where this breaks down for me is that surely awareness of the goings-on in your Lodge aren't limited to your Lodge and your state's Grand Lodge (not to mention an eager audience of non-Masons on ATS). That being the case, this no longer is an issue of 3 men being goofs.

I also wonder what's supposed to happen to the officer procession in your Lodge. IIRC, you said the shenanigans were being perpetrated by the Master and Wardens. So where are the rest of the brethren in your Lodge and how long until your Lodge elections? I find it hard to believe that if everything's going on as you say, that there isn't 2 or 3 others who'd blackball moving the Wardens up when the time comes. Surely there must be 2 or 3 PMs in your Lodge who could take the chairs and gavel while the other officers move up in the interim (assuming this isn't in contravention of some state or Lodge bylaw).

It all comes back to the point that, if true and left unhalted, this has ramifications that far outweigh any pressure any appendant rite should be in a position to inflict. Better to shutter the Lodge and send it dark than allow a travesty to be inflicted on Masonry in general. But I'll reiterate that I find the entire episode being surfaced on ATS of all places to be rather dubious as far as enhancing believability.

What is really sick, there is no real progression of officers in this lodge, all officers are PMs with the exception of the newly elected Master, one of the same bunch.
There are enough members not involved to take over and steer the lodge in a positive direction, however it was said by a Grand lodge officer, that there was too much pressure from one of the rites to do so.
The members other then RacerX and I are in fear of Grand Lodge. Racer X and I have met many times with 2 Grand Masters and the Grand Secretary over this and watched them buckle to the pressure from the Rite.
We can not follow those that can not lead.
Note that I have not mentioned the Rite. Maybe there could be good people in it, However I have not seen that and consider them to be lost.
I have passed on info, if it didnt get through, let me know. There is much more and it only gets worse, much worse.

RacerX and I talked last night, he felt this little problem may be worth talking about.
The night we were booted out of the lodge, there was a vote on a candidate that is a "crossdresser", that is, a man that dresses as a women.
Two weeks before the vote, we approached the Master of the lodge and told him that we needed to talk about this issue. Instead, the Master did not talk to us, they kicked us out at the start of the meeting and voted him in.
As I said before, the Grand Master reinstated us shortly after "2 weeks", we were informed that, we could object to the vote because we were present at the meeting but unable to attend the vote. We did exactly that. The candidate then withdrew.
There is an openly gay lodge in the big city in our state. However, we are in a small town, the candidate in question is well known and considered a freak.
Having a member such as this would be a disaster to the fraternity in this town. Please, we are not bashing gays, its just a practical problem in a very conservative minded area.
That aside, the officers of this lodge deprived us of our right to vote in the first place. The Grand Lodge did nothing to address that issue along with the many others.
Any thoughts?

reply to post by HDFACTORYCERTIF


Hmm..

I don't know, if he doesn't cross dress in the lodge.. whats your problem with him? Masonry is not supposed to care about your personal life style preferences, and to kick him out because the community thinks hes a freak for being gay, and forcing him to go to the "big city" .. sounds un-Masonic to me.

Reminds me of the Ohio communication where I read some legislation passed in other states.. I believe it was Montana, fuzzy memory, but they banned men who have sex changes to become woman. Apparently someone got the procedure done, was a woman (i guess) and still wanted to attend lodge. Grand Lodge expelled the (woman?)

Hopefully there is another reason for working against a potential candidate other then the fact he was gay?

reply to post by HDFACTORYCERTIF


It's hard to say because I don't know what state you're in, and therefore don't know what your GL's constitution says.

In my Jurisdiction, no member in good standing can be denied the right to vote. In fact, all Master Masons are required to vote and cannot, by law, be excused from doing so except by unanimous consent. A Master who denied a member the right to vote could be disciplined up to and including having his jewel arrested.

Originally posted by HDFACTORYCERTIF
The Grand Lodge did admit that the pressure from one of the rites. caused them to back down.

This also baffles me, since the Grand Lodge has the authority to shut down the rites in their jurisdiction should they so take a mind to. Any of the rites' leaders can be suspended or expelled for misconduct by the Grand Lodge.

I am not homophobic, the crossdresser, from what I can gather may be a different thing from gay.
The main problem in this small town. the candidate was flamboyant about it, observed in public making this visual life style statement. Our problem is the Lodge would be also effected. My thought is, lodge does not need to condone that way out of the community values personal statement
RacerX and I went to the Master of the lodge, to get some clarity before the vote. Though, we did not tell the Master, we would vote negative, he assumed so and was part of kicking us out before the vote.
The Grand Lodge did suspend the secretary of the lodge for bringing charges of a personal nature against RacerX and I, they did not address any other problems of the lodge.
It is our opinion, because of the stupidly false charges that were brought, the main reason was over the vote on the crossdresser.
It was stated to us by a Grand Lodge officer, that the Grand lodge gave in to one of the rites interference into this blue lodge business, the suspended secretary is high up and they want him back in.
I suppose the rites could be a good thing in other locations, here, we have seen no good from them and feel they are a detriment to much needed progress in the blue lodge.
It is very obvious to us, in this state, The rites control Grand Lodge.
The worst event of all is when the Master of this lodge stated the "obligations are only words" to the Grand Lodge officers. "I believe we posted the reply we received via email" basically the Grand Lodge feels the same.
This small lodge is over 150 yrs old, it also has considerable assets, the situation with the assets is in serious question also.
Sadly this group, has ran this historic lodge into the ground in less than 10yrs.

reply to post by HDFACTORYCERTIF


In my opinion, it is not the duty of the lodge to reinforce community values. It is the duty of the lodge to reinforce the values of masonry to its members. Part of those values is that as long as people meet certain qualifications, they should be admitted to the fraternity as long as they are of good character. Cross dressing does not mean that a potential member is not of good character, it says nothing of his character at all.

It would be an interesting problem if the cross dresser later had an actual sex change. After that I am unsure of what the lodge should do, since they would no longer be a "brother" in the gender sense after having gender altering surgery. But at this point, a male who cross-dresses is still a male.

I have to say that I do feel that crossdressing is a character issue. In a small conservative town, dressing as a woman in public is making a bold statement.
In this circumstance, bringing a crossdresser into the lodge, would show that the lodge is sexually deviant to the norm of the community. This would have a dramatic negative impact on the entire Masonic system here.
My feeling is, the right to vote is most important to protect the fraternity from the variable circumstances of behavior of potential members.
Our right to vote was terminated by the officers of this lodge, we were able to later prevent it.
The thought of this candidate having a sex change operation, did cross our minds. Is it our duty to deal with these things?
Can we take a good man and make a better woman?
Can a lodge in a small town with some church leaders claiming we are a devil cult take on this burden also?
If this would have happened, we would be outcasts, worse then it is already.

[edit on 19-12-2007 by HDFACTORYCERTIF]

[edit on 19-12-2007 by HDFACTORYCERTIF]

reply to post by HDFACTORYCERTIF


I would question you on how crossdressing is a moral character issue. Does crossdressing make the person bad, or immoral, or in contradiction to any of the values endorsed by masonry?

My Dad was a loyal Mason for over 40 years, and he and a few others were the victims of a Lodge problem: Some members were unhappy with the State bigshots and expressed it openly. My Dad was Secretary and dutifully wrote down what was said, making no comment personally. When the lawyers, which is all that the ' leadership ' of the Masons are anywhere, heard about it they came down hard: threatened to take the lodge, legally, away from the members, expelled my Dad, suspended several others for up to five years. it broke my dads heart.

He was a certified lecturer and past master and held every office there is. He coulseled new Masons and spent uncounted hours memorizing book after book. Total dedication: But what he did was technically correct, but not politically correct, and he paid the price. He still will not say a bad word about Masonry but I know that he intended to die with the ring on and wearing the apron when he went to his final rest. It almsot killed him to be expelled from a fraternity that he lived and worled for for so long:

But the lawyers will destroy a Lodge fast if they are allowed to have ultimate control. They will tolerate no views counter to the official stance, and complaints are not to be heard at gthe upper levels. Any sign of a rebellion or upset members brings swift and sure punishments. Not my kind of club, but to each his own. I resent the whole deal for the hurt it caused a very good man but I know that most members are Ok guys and not a part of the money, the power, the politics..the GRAND poohbahs that ignore the rank and file for their own reasons, mostly those that serve to enrich themselves while the common member just pays his dues and keeps his mouth shut..or else.

I am perhaps not qualified to address the morality of crossdressing. Just my opinion of character, I feel there is something odd there. My problem could be, I do not understand crossdressing.
Eyewitness, for sure the Grand Lodge has lawyers on RacerX and I, they even tried to set us up for a fall more than once.
I would suppose the lawyers are now trying to find out how to get the Grand Lodge out of mounting liability due to their own failure.
We had two Grand Masters lie to our face along with their officers. Maybe they will end up frenzy scratching and swinging in trees with dresses on!

Concerning the cross-dresser:

Anyone remember J. Edgar Hoover?

Originally posted by LightinDarkness
I would question you on how crossdressing is a moral character issue. Does crossdressing make the person bad, or immoral, or in contradiction to any of the values endorsed by masonry?

You could give a cross-dresser the benefit of the doubt.

But in probably 99.99% of all cases, a cross-dresser will turn out to be total fruit-job, who's actions are harmful to society as whole.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Concerning the cross-dresser:

Anyone remember J. Edgar Hoover?

He was a crossdresser?


Wouldn't be surprised.


No wonder this society is going to hell.

It's leaders(who are supposed to be setting good examples) are much more corrupt than all the common criminals in the country put together.




[edit on 20-12-2007 by Tamahu]

reply to post by Tamahu

But in probably 99.99% of all cases, a cross-dresser will turn out to be total fruit-job, who's actions are harmful to society as whole.

How does being gay exactly... destroy society?

He was a crossdresser?
Wouldn't be surprised.
No wonder this society is going to hell.

Everyone knew that he was a cross dresser, why is it exactly that you feel gays are some kind of evil power out to ruin all of our heterosexual lives?

It's leaders(who are supposed to be setting good examples) are much more corrupt than all the common criminals in the country put together.

You consider homosexuality to be "corruption"?

reply to post by Rockpuck


I'd have to agree with Rockpuck - and since we never agree on most political or social issues, this is surprising.

I may not personally agree with people's sexual preference, (and now the part I'm in agreement on but I do not see how sexual preference impacts anything except what a person does in the privacy of their own home. Morality is not dependent on sexual preference. I see no problem letting anyone of any sexual preference or quark (like cross dressing) into the lodge.

It would be a problem if sex change surgery became involved, as I have already said. But at this point we are only talking about letting someone who cross dresses into a a lodge, and I fail to see how the fact that someone cross dresses impacts their morality - which is one of the only things that matters when considering admission the lodge. Assuming the person is male, over 18/21, and professes belief in a supreme deity, I see no problem.