It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Bible corrupts

page: 7
3
<< 4  5  6    8 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Sep, 26 2007 @ 09:16 AM
link   

Originally posted by rich1411
i forget which chapter but one verse states to "fear God",thus i heed that command and try to be the best person i can be-thats all i can do.


It also says if you rape a girl she must marry you. When does a "law" stop being "history" and actaully become a "law". Who decides what part of the Bible you must "live your life by"?




posted on Sep, 26 2007 @ 12:39 PM
link   

Originally posted by Aeronautical7

As for the trinity the Bible says in 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


FOR many, many years the Bible verses at 1 John 5:7, 8 were used in an attempt to prove the Trinity. This was because they contained the words: “The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.” (Douay) According to the doctrine of the Trinity, the Father, the Son and the ‘Holy Ghost’ are three persons in one God, coeternal, and equal in power, glory and substance.

Today, however, these verses are rarely so used. Why? Because, as a recent Roman Catholic version, The Jerusalem Bible, explains in a footnote, they are “not in any of the early Greek MSS [manuscripts], or any of the early translations, or in the best MSS of the Vulg[ate] itself” and therefore “are probably a gloss that has crept into the text.”

In other words, they are spurious.

Without the spurious addition these two verses read: “For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.”

Also, regarding this Trinitarian passage, textual critic F. H. A. Scrivener wrote: “We need not hesitate to declare our conviction that the disputed words were not written by St. John: that they were originally brought into Latin copies in Africa from the margin, where they had been placed as a pious and orthodox gloss on ver. 8: that from the Latin they crept into two or three late Greek codices, and thence into the printed Greek text, a place to which they had no rightful claim.”—A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament (Cambridge, 1883, third ed.), p. 654.

Sorry I dont have an online reference for this.

It is a spurious text and should not be used by anyone to support the trinity. Many who are only familiar with the King James have no idea about the origin of this spurious test.



posted on Sep, 26 2007 @ 01:08 PM
link   

Originally posted by Sparky63

Originally posted by Aeronautical7

As for the trinity the Bible says in 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


FOR many, many years the Bible verses at 1 John 5:7, 8 were used in an attempt to prove the Trinity. This was because they contained the words: “The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.” (Douay) According to the doctrine of the Trinity, the Father, the Son and the ‘Holy Ghost’ are three persons in one God, coeternal, and equal in power, glory and substance.

Today, however, these verses are rarely so used. Why? Because, as a recent Roman Catholic version, The Jerusalem Bible, explains in a footnote, they are “not in any of the early Greek MSS [manuscripts], or any of the early translations, or in the best MSS of the Vulg[ate] itself” and therefore “are probably a gloss that has crept into the text.”

In other words, they are spurious.

Without the spurious addition these two verses read: “For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.”

Also, regarding this Trinitarian passage, textual critic F. H. A. Scrivener wrote: “We need not hesitate to declare our conviction that the disputed words were not written by St. John: that they were originally brought into Latin copies in Africa from the margin, where they had been placed as a pious and orthodox gloss on ver. 8: that from the Latin they crept into two or three late Greek codices, and thence into the printed Greek text, a place to which they had no rightful claim.”—A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament (Cambridge, 1883, third ed.), p. 654.

Sorry I dont have an online reference for this.

It is a spurious text and should not be used by anyone to support the trinity. Many who are only familiar with the King James have no idea about the origin of this spurious test.



I use the King James because it is used as the text in the Companion Bible, with notes by E.W. Bullinger and he makes that same notation.

I must admit that I don't understand the Trinity anyway. At times I feel I grasp it then it just slips away. I simplify by believing in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The full understanding will have to come later....or not.


.......Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 26 2007 @ 01:14 PM
link   
reply to post by whirlwind
 


Again, illustrating the point that because of our finite minds, we cannot fully understand the nature of God. It is because of this fact that a dogmatic insistence on one and only one interpretation of "God's word" is both dangerous and corrupting. Not saying God is corrupting, but our interpretations.

The Trinity idea is impossible to understand because it is contridictory in nature ( 1=3=1 ????). Get a Christian to talk long enough and honestly enough, and the best they can say about it is that they have faith. Nothing wrong with faith, but it's important to identify it as such. Faith should not justify genocide, rape, slavery, converting by the sword, war on terror, etc, etc, etc.



posted on Sep, 26 2007 @ 01:22 PM
link   
Not all Christians believe in the Trinity.
Some who have done their own research have reached the conclusion that it is a concept adopted from pagan religions that crept in sometime after the death of the Apostles.



posted on Sep, 26 2007 @ 02:01 PM
link   

Originally posted by Sparky63
Not all Christians believe in the Trinity.
Some who have done their own research have reached the conclusion that it is a concept adopted from pagan religions that crept in sometime after the death of the Apostles.


I haven't researched it at all. When I consider it my mind feels like a bowl of oatmeal.........So, I agree with Nyrossius Maxim in that we have finite minds.

Either way, it has never presented a great problem to me in that I should or shouldn't understand it. It's sad to realize that pagan doctrine has been allowed in the worship of Christ, if not this particular idea then certainly others.



............Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 28 2007 @ 02:02 PM
link   
reply to post by Sparky63
 


Herein lies the problem with many different translations of the Bible.

A couple questions to spur some more thought:

1. Without having the Bible in mind, if you were to make a book for yourself, any book, and you created this work from many different other sources that talk about the same topic of your book. One source says one thing, another says another thing based on the same topic...which do you believe? what do you include? what do you negate? How do you know how to decide given these are sources you are relying on for information that isn't originally your own?

2. Assume there is a God, and he had a Son whom he sent to be the redeemer of mankind. Any who believe on this Son will have an everlasting hope, and eternal security by simply trusting that this Son died for you, and redeemed you from the "world"/sin. Lets also assume for illustration sake that there is one who hates the Son, despises the Son, and will mock, parallel, copy everything the Son does to detour the minds of individuals from coming to the knowledge of the Son. Now lets say there is a source that has been preserved for thousands of years and that source promised that this God would preserve such a source. Lets say this source is the best source for an individual to come to the knowlege of the Son. If you were that One who hated, and despised this Son, would you not try to tamper, wipe out, belittle, manipulate, mock the source that would allow individuals to come to the knowlege of the Son?

As for my personal thoughts to number 1: It would be hard to tell what source to take from, I would probably want to take in this case from the oldest, except when two sources with similar age are contradicting. One contains passage with several verses, one doesn't within the same passage, which do you take? I guess thats why I believe in the Texus Receptus. It is one text. The Texus Receptus does not have the age of the manuscipts you've listed, yet it takes scripture from copies of older completed works (books of the Bible).

Some thoughts to number 2: Yes, I would tamper with such a source and so wouldn't you if you were such a one. This is exactly why we have so many different versions of the Bible in english alone, not to mention other languages. The Bible talks about the end drawing nigh when all nations have come to the knowledge of the gospel (the good news of Christ). Mathew 24 to name one reference. This is to say that God would allow, or make it such that many different "tongues" (known languages) would have the gospel available to them.

Psalm 12:6 says: The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Gods word is an everlasting word. We can get so caught up in versions, and translations and everything else under the son and completely miss the point. The Bible does not corrupt, but man corrupts the Bible. We do this through our own understanding, our own wisdom, our own knowledge, and not through God himself.

Additionally, 1 John 5:7 is not the only reference to the trinity. Read Genesis again and look at the change in the singularity and plurality of God. "And WE saw that is was good." "Let US make man in OUR own image." Jesus "I and the Father are one." John 14 "I will send the Comforter." Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

All over the Bible is the mentioning of the Father, the Son (Word), and the Holy Spirit (Ghost).



posted on Sep, 28 2007 @ 02:13 PM
link   
A god who hides from his creation, fails to intervene in time of need, demands worship, orders not to worship any other god, refuses to answer the phone when called upon, remains a mystery, does nothing to prove one exist. Is no god. Therefore the book referred to as the bible, is false.

As for Jesus:


It was Pope Leo X who made the most infamous and damaging statement about Christianity in the history of the Church. His declaration revealed to the world papal knowledge of the Vatican's false presentation of Jesus Christ and unashamedly exposed the puerile nature of the Christian religion. At a lavish Good Friday banquet in the Vatican in 1514, and in the company of "seven intimates" (Annales Ecclesiastici, Caesar Baronius, Folio Antwerp, 1597, tome 14), Leo made an amazing announcement that the Church has since tried hard to invalidate. Raising a chalice of wine into the air, Pope Leo toasted: "How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us and our predecessors."


Source



posted on Sep, 28 2007 @ 02:15 PM
link   
Sorry to continue without a reply, I don't want to monopolize the topic, but I had one additonal thought that helps me personaly to understand the best way I can, the nature of God.

The Bible is clear, we have a triune God-head. They are equal, they are God, yet their "purpose"/"office" is different.

Water is one of the most amazing substances and liquids we have in nature around us. Water can be a liquid, a solid, and a gas yet it is still water (H2O). 3 Different states/beings yet still water.

Read the accounts in Revelation, Satan mocks the Trinity. Satan, The Prophet, and the Anti-Christ. All cast into the lake of fire. Gods number for completeness or perfection is 7, Satans number for man is 6. Turn a cross up-side-down and we've made it a peace sign. Lastly, I find it amazing that of all the "gods" out there that Jesus is the only one that has successfully become a sware word. Might have something to do with the reasoning I provided in my previous posting at number 2? The One despising the Son.



posted on Sep, 28 2007 @ 02:21 PM
link   
reply to post by WorldShadow
 


Not to be harsh, but Catholic does not equal Christian.

A Christian is one who follows after the ways of Christ. In other words:
Christianity = Christ/Word + nothing.

Catholism = Christ + Mary + Saints (determined by the Vatican) + hope + statues and symbols + man made tradition+ yah....

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.



posted on Sep, 28 2007 @ 02:28 PM
link   
reply to post by WorldShadow
 


I assume you say the things you do in reference to God and come to the conclusion you do based on a loss or pain that has come your way. I'm not Dr. Phil, but God is a God of love, he wants to be actively engaged in our lives but we don't allow that, we reject that. Then when something bad happens we're quick to be angry with Him and curse Him.

No man has lost more, nor ever will lose more than Job. The Bible says in Job 1:20-22 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,
[21] And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
[22] In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

In the end: Job 42:10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

God is good in all things. He does not promise there won't be storms, but he does promise to go through the storms with us if we allow.



posted on Sep, 28 2007 @ 06:19 PM
link   
reply to post by Aeronautical7
 



I've ventured to the realm of the unknowable. I found no god. I did locate a power which I understand empowers the human being in the mortal universe.

Ask your god to reveal itself for a question session. I know it will not happen. Ask your god to end wars, murder, evil and hunger for those who suffer; again nothing. Do not be so easily deceived by mans fabrications of a god and book written by men proclaiming words of an absent god.

Humankind is alone in the mortal universe to seek there own salvation from within there own doings. You are expirational as is all life in this world. Why would a god ignore your cries and wishes if one were to exist. Unless, there is none.



posted on Sep, 28 2007 @ 07:02 PM
link   
reply to post by Aeronautical7
 



I enjoyed reading your post and the thought provoking questions. The scripture you quoted really caught my eye:



Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7.Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, Thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


I truly feel that the King James Bible is the Bible for His Words to be preserved in. I recognize that there are a few mistranslations but overall it is a wonderful piece of work and has His "seal of approval".

From the first printing of a Bible, in 1525, to the 1611 King James Version there were seven purifications ("pure words as silver tried...purified seven times". Seven, of course, being the number of spiritual perfection.

Also, a Rabbi ran a computer test, "Bible Code", and all the names of the translators plus many other associated words were in the very short (8 verse) Psalms 12 chapter.



.....Who is so great a God as our God?...Ps.77:13



...........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 28 2007 @ 07:38 PM
link   

Originally posted by Aeronautical7

Additionally, 1 John 5:7 is not the only reference to the trinity. Read Genesis again and look at the change in the singularity and plurality of God. "And WE saw that is was good." "Let US make man in OUR own image." Jesus "I and the Father are one." John 14 "I will send the Comforter." Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

All over the Bible is the mentioning of the Father, the Son (Word), and the Holy Spirit (Ghost).


I agree with much of what you said. However, if we agree that 1 John 5:7 is a spurious scripture, inserted to support the trinity doctrine, then we must do as you suggest and consider the other scriptures that are used in support of the trinity.
You referenced Genesis, "let Us make man in our image." Who was God speaking to? Well if we consider that before he created man, he had already created the heavens and the earth. The Bible sates that there are myriads of angels, They were witnesses to his creative acts with regard to the earth & man. We klnow this because of what is recorded in Job.



(Job 38:7) 7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?


So We have a heaven inhabited by God, the angels, and of course Gods Son who is described as the firstborn of all creation.
Man was to made in their image. How? Obviously not in a physical sense because the Bible says that God is a spirit.

(John 4:24) 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.”


Adam & Eve were going to be made in Gods image in that they were uniquely different from all the other animal creation. They would be like God & the rest of the heavenly creation in that they had the capacity to manifest His attributes, especially His capacity for Love.

So, I see no support of the Trinity here.

Please give me the Chapter and verse where you gave this quote, " "And WE saw that is was good." .
Perhaps I overlooked it because I cannot find that phrase in Genesis.



posted on Sep, 28 2007 @ 07:49 PM
link   

Originally posted by Aeronautical7
Jesus "I and the Father are one." John 14 "


With Regard to (John 10:30) I and the Father are one.”
Regarding this scripture one should consider whether Jesus really meant that He was God Almighty himself, but just in a different form.

If this text is taken out of context one would readily conclude that this is indeed what He is saying.
However, if the context is considered, then it is easy to see that this is not the case.
Looking in the same Book we should consider John 17:21-22.
where Jesus prayed to God that his disciples

“may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us . . . that they may be one just as we are one.”


Was Jesus praying that all his disciples would become one person? No, he was praying that they would be in unity, of the same mind and purpose, just as Jesus and God were. He used the same Greek word (hen) for “one” in all these instances. Obviously, Jesus’ disciples do not all become part of the Trinity. But they do come to share a oneness of purpose with the Father and the Son, the same sort of oneness that unites God and Christ.

The same idea is expressed at 1 Corinthians 1:10, where Paul states that Christians ‘should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among them, but that they should be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.’ So when Jesus said that he and his Father were one, he did not mean that they were the same person, just as when he said that his disciples should become one he did not mean that they were the same person.





[edit on 28-9-2007 by Sparky63]

[edit on 28-9-2007 by Sparky63]

[edit on 28-9-2007 by Sparky63]



posted on Sep, 28 2007 @ 08:00 PM
link   

Originally posted by Aeronautical7


All over the Bible is the mentioning of the Father, the Son (Word), and the Holy Spirit (Ghost).


I wouldn't agree with the statement, "All over the Bible."
However, I will comment on two places where all three are mentioned together.
Please note this;

Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are instances of this. Neither of these texts says that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are coequal or coeternal or that all are God.

McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, though advocating the Trinity doctrine, acknowledges regarding Matthew 28:18-20: “This text, however, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity.” (1981 reprint, Vol. X, p. 552)

Regarding other texts that also mention the three together, this Cyclopedia admits that, taken by themselves, they are “insufficient” to prove the Trinity. (Compare 1 Timothy 5:21, where God and Christ and the angels are mentioned together.)

I do not have online sources for these.


[edit on 28-9-2007 by Sparky63]



posted on Oct, 2 2007 @ 10:33 AM
link   
reply to post by Sparky63
 


I'm sorry I have not responded for quite sometime as I have been away.

I think a constructive discussion certainly accomplishes more as we have seen in the last several posts.

The scriptures you desired reference to:

Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

John 14 you quoted together with my reference to "I and the Father are one." John 14's reference was intended for the next mentioning of the Comforter - also Biblically referred to as the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost.

Some additional verses to take a look at Jesus's purpose:

Creator: Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (please read whole chapter to see the context and referral of the Son).
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Diety: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Revelation 19:10-16 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 1:5-6: And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
[6] And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

17-18 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Read Ephesians, Romans, Galations, The Gospels, Isaiah, Genesis and so many more reference Jesus as Christ, Lord, and God. I would fear if I were using a Bible which didn't have these passages, because that would mean it has fallen to the clutches of the "prince of the power of the air."



posted on Oct, 2 2007 @ 11:17 AM
link   
New Testament:

Romans 14:9-12 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
[10] But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
[11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
[12] So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Old Testament:

Isaiah 45:22-23 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
[23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Isaiah 53 - Who does this speak of of 700+ years prior to the coming of Jesus Christ?

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Could this be the promise of the coming of Christ in the beginning of time from the fall of man, the first sin? (I say this rhetorically).

Who is the one crying in the wilderness in Isaiah 40:3 "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."

John 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

Mark 1:2-3 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
[3] The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Mark 1:7-8 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
[8] I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

But who can take away sins but God?

Mark 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

The Bible is the greatest book: 66 books, 40+ authors, over thousands of years and yet it comes together as one!

Isaiah 55:8-11 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
[9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
[10] For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near



posted on Oct, 2 2007 @ 01:21 PM
link   

Originally posted by Aeronautical7

I'm sorry I have not responded for quite sometime as I have been away.

I think a constructive discussion certainly accomplishes more as we have seen in the last several posts.

The scriptures you desired reference to:

Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


No support of the trinity here. God was speaking to his son, Jesus. Two seperate individuals. Of course the heavens were also filled with myriads of Angels who were also present. Were they also being addressed here?
Nothing in this text rules that out.



John 14 you quoted together with my reference to "I and the Father are one." John 14's reference was intended for the next mentioning of the Comforter - also Biblically referred to as the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost.


Already covered. If you consider the context you will see that this refers to Jesus & the Father being united in purpose.
No support of the Trinity here.




Creator: Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (please read whole chapter to see the context and referral of the Son).
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


Does Colossians 1:16, 17 (RS) exclude Jesus from having been created, when it says “in him all things were created . . . all things were created through him and for him”? The Greek word here rendered “all things” is pan′ta, an inflected form of pas. At Luke 13:2, RS renders this “all . . . other”; JB reads “any other”; NE says “anyone else.” (See also Luke 21:29 in NE and Philippians 2:21 in JB.) In harmony with everything else that the Bible says regarding the Son, NW assigns the same meaning to pan′ta at Colossians 1:16, 17 so that it reads, in part, “by means of him all other things were created . . . All other things have been created through him and for him.”

Thus he is shown to be a created being, part of the creation produced by God. No support of the Trinity here.



Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Rev 4:11 is where John sees a vision of God on the throne. HE is the Creator. This is not referring to Jesus. Jeus is identified in Chap 5 as the Lamb. Not the one seated on the throne.

Note Rev 5:7-10

7 And he went and at once took [it] out of the right hand of the One seated on the throne. 8 And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense, and the [incense] means the prayers of the holy ones. 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Clearly Jesus is the Lamb referred to in Vs 9. The Lamb and the one on the throne are shown here as two separate individuals.
No support of the Trinity here



Diety: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


John 1:1 states: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (King James Version) Later in the same chapter, the apostle John clearly shows that “the Word” is Jesus. (John 1:14) Since the Word is called God, however, some conclude that the Son and the Father must be part of the same God.
Bear in mind that this part of the Bible was originally written in Greek. Later, translators rendered the Greek text into other languages. A number of Bible translators, though, did not use the phrase “the Word was God.” Why not? Based on their knowledge of Biblical Greek, those translators concluded that the phrase “the Word was God” should be translated differently. How? Here are a few examples: “The Logos [Word] was divine.” (A New Translation of the Bible) “The Word was a god.” (The New Testament in an Improved Version) “The Word was with God and shared his nature.” (The Translator’s New Testament) According to these translations, the Word is not God himself. Instead, because of his high position among the Gods creatures, the Word is referred to as “a god.” Here the term “god” means “mighty one.”

Can this be confirmed by examining to see if this is in agreement with other verses in Jonn? Yes. For instance, consider what John further writes in chapter 1, verse 18: “No man has seen [Almighty] God at any time.” However, humans have seen Jesus, the Son, for John says: “The Word [Jesus] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory.” (John 1:14, KJ) How, then, could the Son be part of Almighty God? John also states that the Word was “with God.” But how can an individual be with someone and at the same time be that person? Moreover, as recorded at John 17:3, Jesus makes a clear distinction between himself and his heavenly Father. He calls his Father “the only true God.” And toward the end of his Gospel, John sums up matters by saying: “These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.” (John 20:31) Notice that Jesus is called, not God, but the Son of God. This additional information provided in the Gospel of John shows how John 1:1 should be understood. Jesus, the Word, is “a god” in the sense that he has a high position but is not the same as Almighty God.

Also no mention of the Holy Spirit/ Holy Ghost, making up a triune Godhead.
No support of the trinity here.



1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


Already proven to be a spurious text that no serious student of the Bible would use to support the trinity.
In 1881 there was published a revision of the “New Testament” of the King James Version, called the “English Revised Version”. It omitted the spurious text 1 John 5:7, as had Benjamin Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott version a few years earlier.

The American Standard Version of 1901 also removed it. When the Greek Scriptures of this version were revised and published in 1946, the spurious text was still missing. It is likewise omitted in Moffatt’s modern translation (1922), in An American Translation by Goodspeed (1935), in The New Testament in Basic English (1941), in Darby’s version (1949), in Weymouth’s version (fifth edition, 1929), in the Twentieth Century New Testament (1901), in Rotherham’s Emphasised Bible (1897), and so on through practically all modern English versions.

No support of the trinity here.


Revelation 19:10-16 ….
[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


I am assuming that this is the verse you wanted to stress. As the designated ruler of Gods Kingdom, His Annointed King, Jesus is given this position by the Father. He has proved to be far, far mightier than any earthly ruler, any human king or lord. His dignity and splendor are transcendent. He has ridden “in the cause of truth and humility and righteousness” and has triumphed for all time! Truly an appropriate title for Jesus.
This in no way supports the Trinity. Jesus was given this position by the Father.



Revelation 1:5-6: And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
[6] And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


There is no mention here of a trinity, or that Jesus & the Father are co-equal.
No support of the Trinity here.



17-18 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


This is one that confuses many Trinitarians. In order to understand this one must appreciate the unique position Jesus has as the first one resurrected to heavenly life from the dead.
In Isaiah 44:6, God rightly describes his own position as the one and only almighty God, saying: “I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.” When Jesus presents himself by the title “the First and the Last,” he is not claiming equality with the Father, the Grand Creator. He is using a title properly bestowed on him by God. In Isaiah, Almighty God was making a statement about His unique position as the true God. He is God eternal, and besides him there is indeed no God. (1 Timothy 1:17)

In Revelation, Jesus is talking about his bestowed title, calling attention to his unique resurrection.
Jesus was indeed “the First” human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life. (Colossians 1:18) Moreover, he is “the Last” to be so resurrected by God personally.

Once again, There is no mention here of a trinity, or that Jesus & the Father are co-equal.
No support of the Trinity here. Jesus identifies himself as the one that was sacrificed and then resurrected.

Regarding the Trinity, the Athanasian Creed (in English) says that its members are “incomprehensible.” Teachers of the doctrine often state that it is a “mystery.” Obviously such a Trinitarian God is not the one that Jesus had in mind when he said: “We worship what we know.” (John 4:22, RS)



posted on Oct, 2 2007 @ 02:06 PM
link   
Does the Bible teach that the “Holy Spirit” is a person?
Some individual texts that refer to the holy spirit (“Holy Ghost,” KJ) might seem to indicate personality. For example, the holy spirit is referred to as a helper (Greek, pa•ra´kle•tos; “Comforter,” KJ; “Advocate,” JB, NE) that ‘teaches,’ ‘bears witness,’ ‘speaks’ and ‘hears.’ (John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:13) But other texts say that people were “filled” with holy spirit, that some were ‘baptized’ with it or “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38)

These latter references to holy spirit definitely do not fit a person. To understand what the Bible as a whole teaches, all these texts must be considered. What is the reasonable conclusion? That the first texts cited here employ a figure of speech personifying God’s holy spirit, his active force, as the Bible also personifies wisdom, sin, death, water, and blood. (See also pages 380, 381, under the heading “Spirit.”)

The Holy Scriptures tell us the personal name of the Father—Jehovah, YHWH, YAWEH. They inform us that the Son is Jesus Christ.
But nowhere in the Scriptures is a personal name applied to the holy spirit.

Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw “Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” But he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit. (See also Revelation 7:10; 22:1, 3.)

The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.” (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 575) It also reports: “The Apologists [Greek Christian writers of the second century] spoke too haltingly of the Spirit; with a measure of anticipation, one might say too impersonally.”—Vol. XIV, p. 296.

Nowhere in the Bible is the holy spirit mentioned with God and Christ as being equal to them. For instance, on the occasion of Jesus’ baptism, Mark 1:10 shows that the holy spirit came down upon Jesus “like a dove,” not in a human form. The holy spirit was not some person coming upon Jesus but was God’s active force.

That power from God enabled Jesus to heal the sick and resurrect the dead. As Luke 5:17 says in the Diaglott: “The Mighty Power of the Lord [God] was on him [Jesus] to cure.” Later, at Pentecost, the apostles also were given the power from God to heal the sick and raise the dead. Did that make them part of some “godhead”? No, they were simply given power from God, through Christ, to do what humans ordinarily could not do.

That same active force is mentioned at Ephesians 5:18, where Paul counsels: “Keep getting filled with spirit.” Similarly, Acts 7:55 says that Stephen was “full of holy spirit.” And at Pentecost, the followers of Jesus “all became filled with holy spirit.” (Acts 2:4)

Can a human get filled with another person? No, but he can get filled with the power that comes from God. That holy spirit is the same force that God used to create the universe. As Genesis 1:2 says: “God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.”

After Jesus was resurrected, Stephen had a vision of heaven and “caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” (Acts 7:55) Thus, two separate persons were in evidence in heaven: (1) God and (2) the resurrected Jesus Christ.

No holy spirit is mentioned in this vision because it was not any third person of a Trinity. The holy spirit, being God’s active force, would proceed from God but not as a separate being. That is why Stephen saw only two persons, not three.

Regarding the holy spirit, the New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The O[ld] T[estament] clearly does not envisage God’s spirit as a person, neither in the strictly philosophical sense, nor in the Semitic sense. God’s spirit is simply God’s power. If it is sometimes represented as being distinct from God, it is because the breath of Yahweh acts exteriorly.” It also states: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.”

In view of all these facts, this “fundamental” Trinity doctrine of Christendom cannot be true. God’s own Word refutes that claim. It shows clearly that God is the loving Father and that Jesus Christ is his beloved Son, a Son who had such love for his Father that he was willing to be obedient to the death.



new topics




 
3
<< 4  5  6    8 >>

log in

join