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Bible corrupts

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posted on Sep, 19 2007 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by Nyrossius Maxim
 



Well, I guess now would be a good time to bring up Faith. "For by grace are you saved, through faith..."
Faith being defined as belief in things with the evidence not seen.
I believe ( call it faith, if you will ) that the most important messages of the Bible are Unconditional Love and Faith. Its my personal belief that faith in something- anything- is the key. Now, we can argue as to what exactly one should have faith in, but I think basic faith ( that there is more to reality than we can percieve right now ) is the most important. Whether its Christianity, Buddhism, or even Atheism ( the atheist has faith, I believe - you just gotta dig to get it out! ) is not the most important.

Now, combine faith with unconditional love ( the greek word is "agape" ) then you have the building blocks for a peaceful, and I would even say holy way of life.

Of course, this is just my opinion, but I have faith in this idea.


I agree that "there is more to reality than we can perceive" in these flesh bodies. Paul tells us that. We must have faith in this life and strive for unconditional love (very difficult for humans and I speak of myself). As you say, those two things, faith and unconditional love, will result in a holy way of life.

What is holy?
1.dedicated to religious use; belonging or coming from God; consecrated; sacred.
2.spiritually perfect or pure; untainted by evil or sin; sinless; saintly.
3.deserving reverence or worship.
4.Associated with Jesus and His life; as, The Holy Rood.
5.slang, as in a holy terror.
The descriptions go on and include sacred, consecrated, hallowed, divine

To be holy it must come from God, not Buddah or anyone or anything else. To be spiritually perfect you cannot believe in another. To be holy it "must be deserving of reverence or worship". Does Buddah or an atheist deserve worship? No. They didn't create, they don't save, they didn't send their Son to die for our sins - they do not deserve our reverence or worship or faith.


Ephesians 2:7.That in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

As you said, His grace saves us through our faith but as stated it is through faith in Christ Jesus. Do you believe that faith we have can be in Buddah? No - it is faith in Him, the one who through His grace saves us. It is His gift

In your first post you stated that, "scriptures given by inspiration, not dictation of God."

11Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15. And that from a child thou hast know the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16.All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

We may lead a holy, peaceful life but without faith in Christ we do not receive salvation. It is one of the "If's" He requires of us.


.........Whirlwind




posted on Sep, 19 2007 @ 03:04 PM
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reply to post by whirlwind
 

Just a quick question, Whirwind ( and I've truly enjoyed this very civil dialogue, thank you
:up
just so I don't make any assumptions as to your beliefs. What, exactly are we "saved" from?

I will patiently, yet eagerly, await your response.



posted on Sep, 19 2007 @ 03:11 PM
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This is just a general comment to the thread, in regards to religious wars.
The current debacle in the Middle East, I believe is another example in a religiously motivated war. I realize there are sociopolital reasons as well, but I truly believe the Christians in this nation have Armeggedon in their goals. I wish I knew how to post the link here, but I'm not all that computer savy, but please check out the post entitled "MRFF Lawsuit Alleges Mandatory Christianity in US Military" on the dailykos.com. ( 9/19/07 )

To me, its kind of scairy.

Religion, I do believe, is a tool of mankind, and ultimately deceptive.

Spirituality, in my opinion, is one's personal relationship with "God", however they define "God".

I strive to be spiritual, and not religious.



posted on Sep, 19 2007 @ 03:50 PM
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Originally posted by Nyrossius Maxim
reply to post by whirlwind
 

Just a quick question, Whirwind ( and I've truly enjoyed this very civil dialogue, thank you
:up
just so I don't make any assumptions as to your beliefs. What, exactly are we "saved" from?

I will patiently, yet eagerly, await your response.


I too have enjoyed this discussion....Thank you.

Saved from eternal damnation, saved from going up in smoke forever and ever. Saved from the gnashing of teeth, etc., etc.,

Saved to live in eternity with God and who knows what wonders that entails?


.........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 19 2007 @ 04:28 PM
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reply to post by whirlwind
 

Forgive me for not having a Bible handy to show you some scripture, but when I was Christian, the true salvation was a salvation from sin, which would lead to eternal damnation, I know, but my point is where the emphasis is. Salvation from "hell" is basically out of fear. Salvation from sin ( and I'll define sin, for myself, as continuing the illusion that we are separate from God ) is what Jesus taught. I think this is an important point because it shows what the intentions are: are we just trying to protect our own hides, or live a good life? This fear inspired salvation, I believe, is a result of the perception that hell is a literal place- a lake of fire, or whatnot. I believe Jesus was trying to teach us to act out of Love, not Fear.

Let me also say this: while I reject Christianity, because I do not believe in the trinity ( I see it as a faulty logic of mankind attempting to understand the nature of God ), and I do not believe Jesus was God in the flesh ( again, because I define God differently than traditional Christianity ), I do love Jesus and his teachings. To me, Jesus' teachings revolved around unconditional love ( with the spirit of non-judging ) and faith ( remember the whole mustard seed analogy ). I believe if Christ were to return today, he would do the same thing in todays "Christian" churches that he did in the Jewish temple 2,000 years ago: exposing them for their hypocrisy and their true intentions: control. Just for the record, I really don't believe in the Second Coming in any kind of literal sense, but that is another discussion entirely.

I saw a bumper sticker once that I will never forget: "Jesus save me from your followers!" No offense intended, just thought it was funny. I've actually had conversations with Christians trying to convert me ( again ) and at the end of the conversation, they were so confused, they believed I was indeed a Christian. I say that, again not meaning any offense, but to illustrate that many Christians believe what they believe out of fear, and don't truly understand the teachings of their Christ. Jesus said that if you're not against him, then you're for him.

Also, as far as other religions go ( and again, I do not subscribe to any religion, but strive to be spiritual ), I believe that a lot of the differences in religious ideas are mainly due to cultural differences. The teachings of Buddha have similarities to the teachings of Jesus. There is even speculation that Jesus traveled to the East and studied in some of these "mystical" schools. I'm still seeking confirmation on this, but the similarities do beg the question.

Let me try to say it another way: picture the Truth ( or the nature of God ) as being an all encompassing sphere. Our individual perceptions, while being pointed at that Truth, are just small slices of the big picture, and therefore the truths that we as individuals perceive will differ, even if they contain some small degree of truth. If one could combine all these perceptions ( take all the world's religions, for example ) we would get a bigger slice of the pie. I believe when one decides that they have the abslolute truth, they cease to grow, spiritually. And when growth stops, death aproaches, spiritually speaking. Limiting one's views on God, to me, is the same as limiting God. As I've mentioned before, I believe God to be infinite, so limits are contradicting to that idea. Notice I don't refer to God as Him, because that would denote a masculine nature to God and by inference declare that God does not include the feminine. This is a fundamental flaw to me.

If you seek the truth in only one direction, you could very well miss most of it.



posted on Sep, 20 2007 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by Nyrossius Maxim
reply to post by whirlwind
 

If you seek the truth in only one direction, you could very well miss most of it.


If it is in fact Truth, why would it come from different directions? God is the source of Truth. Unfortunately there are a lot of different sources of "truth" out there. Hense the confusion. The Bible says that God is not the author of confusion.

As for the trinity the Bible says in 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

In Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

As for Jesus being God: Hebrews 1:6-8 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
[7] And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
[8] But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Jesus mentioned many times in the gospels that "I and the Father are one.

"If we could understand all the ways of God, what a small god he would be" - unknown



posted on Sep, 20 2007 @ 02:52 PM
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reply to post by Aeronautical7
 


Again, I view God ( or the Truth, for that matter ) as being an infinitely large sphere in which is everything that exists. So somewhere in the middle of that is each and every one of us. As we try to discover God, whichever direction we seek will only be a little piece, and not complete.

Christianity is just one ( narrow ) view of God. I believe every religion attempts this, and, like Christianity, are incomplete in and of themselves.

As for the Genesis account of creation, fact is the old testament creation story was borrowed from older Babylonian texts, and I'm pretty sure that if you were to delve into the mysteries of ancient Babylon you would end up far from the borders of traditional Christianity!

Jesus says "I and my Father are one" but also refers to the heavenly Father as "our" father - placing himself on our level. Remember that the doctrine of Christ being divine ( or the same as God ) wasn't officially adopted until the Council of Nicaea in the 4th century A.D. Before that there was a split in beliefs among Christians - the Gnostics did not believe Christ was God, but still considered him saviour. Check out the Gospel of Thomas, which wasn't allowed in your Bible because the Roman Catholic church considered it heresy. They also hunted down the Gnostics, killed them, and burnt all the manuscripts they could find. Would you say they were doing "God's work"?

Love that last quote about not being able to understand God- that's kind of what I'm saying, too!

[edit on 20-9-2007 by Nyrossius Maxim]

[edit on 20-9-2007 by Nyrossius Maxim]



posted on Sep, 20 2007 @ 03:20 PM
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You are correct, Jesus did bring himself to our level, and at our level died for us without sin ("He who knew no sin..."). The Hebrews passage I provided is important because it was the Father, calling the first begotten (Jesus -- John 3:16) God.

I find it amazing that scriptual text were found in the Babylonian land some time ago, copies or the original text, the Bible mentions the Jews captivity by Babylon. Everything was carried into the land of Babylon at that time...thus supporting the Bible.

Proverbs 15 says "The eyes of the Lord are in every place beholding the evil and the good." I suppose the idea that God is like a bubble and we are in that bubble is one way to ascribe Him. As an eternal God, not bound by time, he can be in the past present, future all at once, everywhere and anywhere.

As for multiple ways to God, Whirlwind mentioned John 14:6, but John 3:3/3:7, Acts 4:12, Ephesians 2:8-9, and more make note of one way! Matthew 7:14 says, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.



posted on Sep, 20 2007 @ 03:26 PM
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In the context of Matthew 7, I should have included vs. 13 too.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

This is the same life mentioned in Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. --- the same saved/ salvation whirlwind spoke of.



posted on Sep, 20 2007 @ 04:56 PM
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reply to post by Aeronautical7
 


Thank you for those verses. There is no doubt that there is but one way.
Christians may squabble about certain doctrine or dogma and that is a shame but the truth throughout is that we must keep our eyes on Him.

...........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 20 2007 @ 05:30 PM
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reply to post by Aeronautical7
 


The Babylonian references predated any Biblical texts. My point is basically one must have faith to believe that the Bible is the perfect and only word of God. The evidence has too many holes.

The matthew passage about the straight gate and narrow way always bothered me, even when I was a Christian, mainly because Jesus also tells us that if we seek, we will find. I have sought, and it took me away from the Christian dogma. Soon after leaving Christianity, I felt somewhat angry ( at the religion, or maybe at God ) because I felt it destroyed my family. I came very close to being an atheist, but there's no escaping God. Years later, I rediscovered a love for Christ ( as I've mentioned in an earlier response ), just not in the traditional Christian views. To me, Christ's message was so accepting, except for the strict religious people of his time ( Pharisees, Saducees ). I couldn't help but conclude that accepting ( at least, tolerating ) various points view is a good thing.

Jesus said you shall know them by their fruits. There have been many good fruits from many non-Christians. If Christianity helps you, and provides peace for your soul, then good: stick with it. But it does not do that for me, or everyone else. My current path of seeking, however, provides me with infinite peace, even though I don't claim to have all the answers - or any answers, for that matter.

Again, God being infinite wanted to manifest God's infiniteness, and so we have so much diversity. How can one say which aspects of that diversity are wrong and hell-bound?



posted on Sep, 20 2007 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by Nyrossius Maxim
 



Forgive me for not having a Bible handy to show you some scripture, but when I was Christian, the true salvation was a salvation from sin, which would lead to eternal damnation, I know, but my point is where the emphasis is. Salvation from "hell" is basically out of fear. Salvation from sin ( and I'll define sin, for myself, as continuing the illusion that we are separate from God ) is what Jesus taught. I think this is an important point because it shows what the intentions are: are we just trying to protect our own hides, or live a good life? This fear inspired salvation, I believe, is a result of the perception that hell is a literal place- a lake of fire, or whatnot. I believe Jesus was trying to teach us to act out of Love, not Fear.


I don't believe you can achieve true salvation through fear. When one accepts Christ a real change happens:

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

We, as hard as we try not to, will still sin but this is speaking about being an habitual sinner. So I don't believe we are trying to "protect our own hides" at all but rather salvation leads to trying to please Him. You become a new person and want to do good works.


Let me also say this: while I reject Christianity, because I do not believe in the trinity ( I see it as a faulty logic of mankind attempting to understand the nature of God ), and I do not believe Jesus was God in the flesh ( again, because I define God differently than traditional Christianity ), I do love Jesus and his teachings. To me, Jesus' teachings revolved around unconditional love ( with the spirit of non-judging ) and faith ( remember the whole mustard seed analogy ). I believe if Christ were to return today, he would do the same thing in todays "Christian" churches that he did in the Jewish temple 2,000 years ago: exposing them for their hypocrisy and their true intentions: control. Just for the record, I really don't believe in the Second Coming in any kind of literal sense, but that is another discussion entirely.


To reject Christianity because you don't agree with the Trinity is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't it? I agree that many Christian churches need a really thorough spring cleaning because they have picked up so many traditions of men, so many practices that aren't Biblical and actually some that are in direct contradiction to His Word but hopefully the defining thrust of being a Christian is Christ Himself.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, "I AM the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.

That scripture gives us a lesson on two things. He is the only way to salvation and it also shows us the Trinity. I do not understand the Trinity but I do accept it as meaning Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In John 14:3-20 Jesus tells us five times that He is the I Am.


The Second Coming....

Zechariah 14:4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse; and He That sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war,


Father tells us He will come back. He tells us where (Jerusalem), He tells us when (at the 7th trump), He tells us what will happen (He holds the cup of wrath), He tells us who He comes with (the heavenly army), He tells us who He meets (the elect), and He tells us why He comes ( to judge and make war). What makes you believe He won't literally return?


The teachings of Buddha have similarities to the teachings of Jesus. There is even speculation that Jesus traveled to the East and studied in some of these "mystical" schools. I'm still seeking confirmation on this, but the similarities do beg the question.


I have read that too. Even if it should be true the Christ should be our main focus, not Buddah.


Let me try to say it another way: picture the Truth ( or the nature of God ) as being an all encompassing sphere. Our individual perceptions, while being pointed at that Truth, are just small slices of the big picture, and therefore the truths that we as individuals perceive will differ, even if they contain some small degree of truth. If one could combine all these perceptions ( take all the world's religions, for example ) we would get a bigger slice of the pie. I believe when one decides that they have the abslolute truth, they cease to grow, spiritually. And when growth stops, death aproaches, spiritually speaking. Limiting one's views on God, to me, is the same as limiting God. As I've mentioned before, I believe God to be infinite, so limits are contradicting to that idea. Notice I don't refer to God as Him, because that would denote a masculine nature to God and by inference declare that God does not include the feminine. This is a fundamental flaw to me.

If you seek the truth in only one direction, you could very well miss most of it.


You could take all the good things of all religions and it wouldn't change anything. There is an absolute truth and He is that truth. We may flip around trying to come to that truth but it will not be found anywhere except through Him. To me, if you seek truth in all directions you will only achieve confusion.

Christ tells us that He foretold us ALL THINGS and He told us in His Word.

11Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

16.All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness;

4:3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4.And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.




........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 20 2007 @ 09:53 PM
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I briefly mentioned this on a previous post, but upon further consideration I feel I should expound a little more so as to get back to the subject of the Bible corrupting. This is my personnal narrative on the subject:
I was raised Southern Baptist. When I was 2 my parents divorced. Seven years later, they re-married ( each other). We committed ourselves, as a family, to following "our Lord Jesus Christ" believing that would keep our family together. My dad was in the Army at that time and we were stationed in Belgium. We attended the local Baptist church right off base that had a largely American congregation. When I was about 11 we met another Baptist family, but they didn't attend any church. They introduced is to the "Missionary Baptist" denomination. Missionary Baptists are a little different in that they believe in the doctrine of election, or pre-destination: the idea that God chooses who will be saved, because man, if left to his own free will, cannot choose God, due to that whole "original sin" thing. There are many passages in the Bible that speak of election ( grab a concordance and check it out ), and if you're interested, read the works of John Calvin. Missionary Baptists are a relatively small denomination, and there were no churches like that in the area. After much prayer and Bible study, we as a family decided to stop attending the church we had been going to ( because we now believed those free will doctrines to be false ) and started having regular family Bible studies instead. The family that "converted" us to this brand of Baptist gave us several boxes of cassette tapes of sermons from one of the largest ( membership around 300 ) Missionary Baptist churches back in the States. We listened to a sermon at every meal. At the end of my dad's tour in Belgium, again after much prayer and Bible study, we felt God was calling us to move to Kentucky and attend this church, Bryan's Station Baptist Church. Most of our extended family lived in Michigan, so this move was a literal leap of faith. The church taught the literal translation of the Bible, considering those who take the Bible to be figurative heretics. We eanestly followed all of the Bibles teachings, like the church taught. Some of my favorites were: "modest dress", meaning I only wore pants, not shorts ( lest anyones lust after my bony legs!), my mother only wore dresses, because pants were to "form fitting". The women also wore headcoverings ( basically little lace doylies on their heads ) while in church so that "the angels looking down would not lust". And, of course, we did not celebrate Christmas, Easter, or (heaven forbid!) Halloween, because these were all Catholic hollidays that compromised true Christianity with pagan beliefs. Besides that, the Bible doesn't tell us to remember Christ's birth, and his death, burial, and resurection were remembered when we took the Lord's Supper ( "this do in remembrance of me"). There were many strict practices ( straight and narrow, now!) but, suffice it to say, my family, even more so than most of the other members, were as strict as, well as strict as you can imagine. People in my neighborhood nicknamed us the Cleavers, although phrases like "golly-gee" were looked down upon by us due to their being euphamisms for taking the Lord's name in vain. After 4 years we stopped attending the church, due to some doctrinal differences. My family studied their Bibles tirelessly, and my dad became convinced that one of the churches teachings were not consistent with a strict interpretation of the scriptures. That's when I really started questioning things. How could God call us to this church ( in this hot, muggy, craphole of a state!) and then call us to not go to this particular church?
We attended a different Baptist Church, but it was only a matter of time before my dad felt there was a doctrinal discrepancy there, too. A year later, my parents divorced. (please read my next post)



posted on Sep, 20 2007 @ 10:21 PM
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(continued from previous post, bear with me, I swear I'm almost finished!)

I truly believe that my family could not communicate openly enough due to our zealous practices, and restrictions. My mother felt obligated to follow the lead of her husband, as the Bible instructs, until she just could not take it anymore. My mother is a godly woman, but, I believe our restrictive lifestyle inhibited open and honest ( and necessary ) communication. It was all about church and the Bible and whatever our current interpretation was. I believe that it caused unbearable stress in my family.

Does the Bible corrupt? That's probably not fair to say, but, one must interpret the Bible for oneself, and having studied so much and seeing so many different possible interpretations ( and like I've said before, prayer for guidance always preceded and followed Bible readings ), I came to the conclusion that it's all open to interpretation: literal, figurative, or not at all.
Another breaking point for me was hearing my long time pastor at Bryan's Station, explain his "literal" interpretation of ( I believe it was Luke ch. 7 ) Christs message of non-judgement, "Judge not lest ye be judged". At the end of the 45 min sermon, his conclusion was that Christ was actually telling us to judge, which that church did very well.

Where was the Love? The Unconditional Love? Heard the words constantly, but never saw it practiced. Our definition of Love was to point out where everybody was wrong. And that is where I believe one could say the Bible ( but really, Religion ) corrupts. A persons relationship with God is personnal, and no man has the right to judge it.

I feel closer to God now ( not being a Christian and being open to other types of spirituality ) and feel that unconditional love of God. And I don't mean that egotistically, or that I'm great or anything, just that I'm at peace within myself. Free from the chains of the Law, much like Christ said we are.

One last note. I refer to the Bible a lot, but as you've probably guessed, do not take it to be infallible or even always literally true. ( Mostly I reference it for the Christians out there.) That doesn't mean it doesn't serve God's purpose, just like other "holy" texts ( even if they're not Christian ) still serve God's purpose. I would go so far as to say, it's impossible to NOT serve God's purpose, due to the infinite nature of God. Also, saying that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God because God tells us in the Bible that it is the inerrant Word of God is simply circular reasoning. I know there's gotta be a creationist out there who objects to fossil dating for the same reason. It would be like me saying my words are true because God told me, and then write that down and use it as evidence in my favor. The ill effects of religion ( as mentioned in several previous posts: war, genocide, slavery, etc ) are due to mankind's dogmatic insistence that their interpretation is the only Truth.



posted on Sep, 21 2007 @ 01:50 PM
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reply to post by Nyrossius Maxim
 


I would have made note of certain things you've said to comment on, but you wrote so much. Truely, religion is mans way of trying to reach God. I believe Christianity can be summed up as Gods way of reaching man. All religion can be grouped in two categories: Works salvation and salvation by grace (unmerited favor). I say this because almost every known religion (I think I've heard there are around 3,000+) has some state, reward, place you go to if you do some act according to that religions teachings. Catholics for instance believe in good works among many other things give you a chance to get to heaven, but you can't know for sure. There is only one Christianity though. The gospel is plain and clear. Gospel being good news, the good news being that God himself, came in the form of man (Christ Jesus), died, was burried and resurrected the third day (and seen by more than 500 - 1 Corinthians 15). Ephesians 2:8-9 I referrenced earlier talks about salvation being Gods gift to those who believe through Faith in his Son, and not by works.

You mentioned being in churches that believe in election by God. The Bible has many verses to support the idea (Calvanism) but not in complete context of the whole (the Bible as a whole). One could say the Bible contradicts itself, but that is if you believe thats what the Bible is truely teaching. The Bible says that "Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost." He also says that he would have "that all should be saved." The problem is when we apply our own logic and understanding and say, well God knows everything... so therefore God knows who is going to be saved, and who is not. This is true, we call his attribute omniscience. Yet God is clear to say that despite knowing the end from the beginning, he loves all (John 3:16) and would have that all should be saved. The problem is we all have a choice, and some choose to flat out reject the gift God has for those who turn to him (Romans 6:23).

Certainly you have been through a lot, and I admire you being strong, and not having bitterness towards God in all you've been through. It's easy to question God, but the Bible says in Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. One can be saved and not a Christian. A Christian though is one that walks after the ways of Christ (I believe thats ultimately what God would desire for all).

I won't get into the Bible bit, because age of docs, location of discovery, authors, language and translation are again areas where we can beat the Bible to death, and make about as much progress as a car with no wheels. I do believe that God can not lie (as the Bible says), and I do believe his promise that he would preserve his Word. I also believe that not every Bible out there is Gods word, as many have been tampered with (you take from one text your likely not to have as many problems as taking from multiple). Regardless I fall back to the belief that God will preserve his word. Amazing how the Bible has stood the test of time, with 66 books, 40+ authors, over a 6,000 year span of recorded Biblical time (from creation to present, with the support of geneology). God is good, all the time.



posted on Sep, 21 2007 @ 02:36 PM
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reply to post by Aeronautical7
 


"One can be saved and not be a Christian"

Well said, and exactly my point. Now, we can argue what being saved means or how to be a Christian, but, regardless, we're in agreement on that point.

Thank you for your response, yours and Whirlwinds responses have both been very well said and respectful. I'm sure we can agree to disagree on a lot of points, but I totally respect your views.

This thread started by blaming the Bible for all the ills in the world where corrupt people claimed God on their side. I think we can all agree that mankind brings the corruption, whether through their interpretations or their egos or whatever, but God has a plan through it all ( well, atheists might not agree, but again, we can agree to disagree ). Again, I would just like to clearly state that it is the dogmatic insistence on one point of view that leads ( in my opinion ) to corruption. We can only judge for ourselves, not everyone else.

I am aware of the "attributes of God", such as omniscience, omnipotence, and what not. As far as fate vs free will ( fate being predestination - I'm actually kind of surprised that you were familiar with it, most are not ) I think the whole discussion is a perfect example of our limited points of view. God, existing outside of time and space ( again, like my sphere analogy ) all of God's actions are at the same time ( to God ). Because of this plain of existence, we percieve the illusion of time. Does God predetermine things or do we choose? In the grand scheme of things, what's the real difference? I hate to reference movies, but the Matrix trilogy, I feel, did an outstanding job of illustrating this idea. The question is not " What do you choose?" but " Why have you chosen it?"



posted on Sep, 21 2007 @ 03:33 PM
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reply to post by Nyrossius Maxim
 


I knew the posting of "one can be saved, and not be a Christian" would draw your eye. I believe it to be true, yet one must turn to Christ to be saved. To be saved and not be a Christian, is an example of an individual who had trusted/believed in Christ as savior, then turned away, and/or no longer walks with God as such. To walk with God from the biblical sense is to be a Christian. The idea that one can be saved and not a Christian, is backed by the Bibles many references to "eternal security" for those who at one time turned to Christ and become what the Bible refers to as "born again."

Salvation...Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. From what? Sin. Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Why? The Bible also mentions: "For by one man, sinned entered into the world..(Adam). How? Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I'm sure you've heardall these verses before, but they need not an interpreter, but they interpret themselves. "Surely God has not left us in the dark, but has made for us a light."

John.1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the lightof men.
[5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us [Jesus], (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



posted on Sep, 21 2007 @ 04:46 PM
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It's amazing to see how many people don't have the intelligence or the will to shrug off something that has been pounded into their heads since birth, but I am happy to see that many are realizing the truth, not that long ago and even today if you try to express your opinion which isn't accepted by the "mob" you would be, stoned, hung, burned at the stake and even had an explosive set off at your office or residence. But the change is coming, and its coming fast



posted on Sep, 26 2007 @ 05:18 AM
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whirlwind


Where does He condone slavery? The reference I found tells us He wants them to be released after a time. Where does He say to torture prisoners? He does tell His children to battle but you must realize there are reasons for that.


Throughout most of the Old Testament. In modern bibles "slave" has been changed to "servant".

Equinox99

Where does it state that? Does it say go and murder and rape? If it does show me. God destroyed nations that became very far from him, and started to worship idols and became adulterers.


Go and have a look at www.infidels.org... then I'm sure you'll change your tune. There have been a number of changes to the Bible to make The god of the Bible (TGOTB) seem less barbaric than he really is. Maybe you can tell us HOW soldiers determined that thousands of women were virgins??



Okay, you must understand at those times there were very different laws, and it was a total different time. So if you buy a servant his freedom, then he owes you 6 years of work. Do not change "servant" into slave. A servant is someone who works for something, and a slave is someone who is held captive and working for nothing. This was intended for the Hebrew servants. The same thing applies to women, if the master has a contract with her, and she marries this male servant, she must stay until she is done her contract.

The bible does not condemn slavery, however at those times it was much different then todays world.


My friend, slavery is slavery, no matter how rosy you try to paint it. TGOTB condones slavery. He can so easily kill people who worship idols (harmless IMHO), why not punish slavers (barbaric to the extreme)? As for changing "servant" to "slave", maybe you should check older versions of the Bible. In Modern versions of the bible, "slave" is changed to "servant" to make TGOTB seem less barbaric.

The reason I separate TGOTB from God is that they're not one and the same. Anyone with half a brain AND an open mind will realise that God is not capable of all the atrocities committed in the Bible. The Bible might be the biggest conspiracy ever.

Open your mind when you read the Bible because you will see MANY things like this...



Exo20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.


In MANY places in the Bible God is accompanied by this trumpeting, lightning, smoke, flame and light. He often warns people not to come too close to the EXHAUSTS OF HIS SPACESHIP/AIRCRAFT or they will certainly perish, and many have. You will also find many occurences of the use of high technology.



posted on Sep, 26 2007 @ 07:17 AM
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reply to post by Lannock
 


whirlwind
Where does He condone slavery? The reference I found tells us He wants them to be released after a time. Where does He say to torture prisoners? He does tell His children to battle but you must realize there are reasons for that.


Lannock -
Throughout most of the Old Testament. In modern bibles "slave" has been changed to "servant".


It is what it is and I accept that, whether it is slave or servant. In many of the cases they were bonded, or indentured. For whatever reason it was necessary for their familly or for they themself to agree to a term of labor. Such as Jacob (who became Israel) when he worked for seven years to be able to marry the woman he loved.

Things during that time may not be what we think they should be but to put our concept of what it should have been in that time is a bit prideful. If they were that way there were reasons. You can fight against slavery now because it is still here but you must simply accept that it is what it was then. Father had rules in how they should be treated fairly and that they were to be released after seven years, regardless of their debt being paid.



Equinox99
Where does it state that? Does it say go and murder and rape? If it does show me. God destroyed nations that became very far from him, and started to worship idols and became adulterers.


Go and have a look at www.infidels.org... then I'm sure you'll change your tune. There have been a number of changes to the Bible to make The god of the Bible (TGOTB) seem less barbaric than he really is. Maybe you can tell us HOW soldiers determined that thousands of women were virgins??


So....you want a Christian to believe what those that hate God tell us? The women that were virgins were taken to be wives.




My friend, slavery is slavery, no matter how rosy you try to paint it. TGOTB condones slavery. He can so easily kill people who worship idols (harmless IMHO), why not punish slavers (barbaric to the extreme)? As for changing "servant" to "slave", maybe you should check older versions of the Bible. In Modern versions of the bible, "slave" is changed to "servant" to make TGOTB seem less barbaric.


Again, you are trying to fit the times with your idea of what it should have been. It isn't your choice. Why do you believe "He so easily kills"? How easy would it be for you to kill a child of yours? He has rules and those rules are to be followed. The most important, as it is the first of the ten commandments, is to have no other gods before Him.

Now, is He telling us that for His sake or ours? He warns us through the Bible that to worship other than Him is death. It is our choice. At the end of days Satan comes pretending to be Christ. If we worship him, even unknowingly, we are no longer a child of God. The rule is there for our benefit........read His letter and learn and don't listen to those that hate Him.


The reason I separate TGOTB from God is that they're not one and the same. Anyone with half a brain AND an open mind will realise that God is not capable of all the atrocities committed in the Bible. The Bible might be the biggest conspiracy ever.


Of course the God of the Bible is God. To not understand that is to not use the brain He gave you. If there are what we today would term atrocities contained in the Bible I assure you there were reasons for them. God is always fair.


Open your mind when you read the Bible because you will see MANY things like this...

Exo20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

In MANY places in the Bible God is accompanied by this trumpeting, lightning, smoke, flame and light. He often warns people not to come too close to the EXHAUSTS OF HIS SPACESHIP/AIRCRAFT or they will certainly perish, and many have. You will also find many occurences of the use of high technology.


I agree, there are many references to those events in the past and many to what will come.


.........Whirlwind




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