Jail Nation

My point exactly! Maybe you don't realize it, but you just proved my point entirely.

Originally posted by budski
Why is everyone so sure that marijuana is a victimless crime?

Well, I'll use your logic to tell you why.

Originally posted by budski
it's against the law, the law costs money to enforce - thats taxpayers money.

Yup. A ton of money, if you count enforcement, trial, imprisonment... Plus, it diverts the efforts and funds of law enforcement and the judicial system away from things that need it so desperately. Crimes where there are victims.

Originally posted by budski
criminal gangs import marijuana, amongst other drugs, this in turn provides money for other criminal activities, which in turn costs taxpayers money.

Just like in the days of alcohol prohibition. By making marijuana illegal, you give MASSIVE power to gangs. In turn, fighting these gangs is not only very difficult, but it costs a ton of time and money that could be used for other things (or returned to taxpayers by lowering taxes). Additionally, you can't tax it, since it's purely black market. Prices of marijuana are artificially driven up, economically encouraging people to enter the drug trade.
Prohibition is a highly dangerous thing.

Originally posted by budski
How many people are caught up in gang violence as a direct result of gang warfare over drugs territory?

Like I said, far too many. Thanks to the state trying to play nanny, gangs are given power and money.

Originally posted by budski
As for prostitution being a victimless crime - I won't even dignify that with an answer - the links between prostitution/crime/drugs/violence/HIV/STD's etc etc are all well established and documented. To think otherwise shows a profound lack of knowledge of crime and social issues.

Of course. Now, let's analyze that.
First, there is a link between prostitution and crime (and drugs and violence, consequently). The reason? Because, like marijuana, it is illegal, and therefore a black market trade. Black market trades are both impossible to regulate, impossible to tax, and have strong ties to crime, especially mobs and gangs.
Next, you have the link between prostitution and STDs. As prostitution is a purely voluntary contract, that's a risk that you know of before you pay for a prostitute. By entering a contract with a prostitute, you are the only one at risk of getting an STD from that individual. Other people may have sex with you, which is also an entirely voluntary contract. Both parties run the risk of getting a disease if you don't know the other person's background and/or don't use a condom. Additionally, since it's a black market trade, it's impossible to regulate. If it were legal, you could have standards or certifications ensuring cleanliness (ex. mandatory STD testing).

Originally posted by budski
This thread isn't about changing the law to suit people who promote marijuana use, it's about the population levels of US prisons and the reasons for this.
Marijuana possession/importing/dealing is currently against the law - no matter what people think of the law, that is how it stands.
The law is not the subject of the thread.

You accuse other people of not having knowledge of social issues, and then say something as silly as this? The law has a DIRECT impact on the population levels of U.S. prisons. I shouldn't even respond further to this, since it would achieve nothing but to embarrass you - and my goal isn't to attack you, but to show you the holes in your logic.

[edit on 22-8-2007 by Johnmike]

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

Originally posted by budski
I've already posted stats showing that drug possession is a minor contributor to the jail population.

possession, maybe, but drug related crime, like drug turf war violence, or robberies are also related to the war on drugs. If drugs were legalized we'd have to remove those percentages too. The WoD is a big percentage of the prison population budski.

exactly...it all has to be factored in..can't just use the numbers for simple posession. have to figure all the drug related crimes and people who are on their second and third cause the first was a simple posession charge.

i too know the risks and will have to face up to it if i get caught. the fact that it is illegal does not make it a just law, imo...
the war on drugs is probably the single biggest contributor to so many people in jail

Again - name a just social law - don't include the bad stuff, like rape, murder etc etc - but name a law that everybody agrees with.
It just doesn't work that way.
Wanting something doesn't make it right.

Now excuse me while I build

Exactly why we should limit imprisonment to real crimes with real victims - IE rape, murder, assault, theft - instead of legislating every demented social taboo in the book.

Unfortunately it will never happen: the prison industry has some very good lobbyists at work.

And unfortunately, through his constant ad hominems, he ignored my post.

Oh well.

reply to post by Johnmike


That's all very well, but you're completely ignoring the social consequences of widespread drug use - and I include legal drugs like nicotine and alcohol.
And there are many social consequences that you seem to either not see or ignore.
No offense

Originally posted by budski
That's all very well, but you're completely ignoring the social consequences of widespread drug use - and I include legal drugs like nicotine and alcohol.
And there are many social consequences that you seem to either not see or ignore.
No offense

and you are ignoring the fact that nanny states trying to prohibit things like grass and booze only creates the crime and fuels the 'problem'.
prohibition does not work. the gov created this mess and they can clean it up with the swipe of a pen....of course, with legalization comes hundreds o fmillions of dollars in revenue for the state(if they sell it) but it will also save hundreds of millions due to not having to combat grass in the 'war on drugs'...
lots of problems can be solved here. YOU are the one that is not seeing that.

Make all that stuff legal, but then how long do you need to wait until you can legally drive your car after a joint or two when the THC stays in your system for weeks. You also need to allow employers to test when ever they want to protect their company. Also unless you get a baby sitter when you are stoned you might loose custody of your kids.

People act like problems go away but it just creates a whole new set.

[edit on 22-8-2007 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Make all that stuff legal, but then how long do you need to wait until you can legally drive your car after a joint or two when the THC stays in your system for weeks. You also need to allow employers to test when ever they want to protect their company. Also unless you get a baby sitter when you are stoned you might loose custody of your kids.

People act like problems go away but it just creates a whole new set.

[edit on 22-8-2007 by Xtrozero]

well, the thc stays in your system for weeks but the effects are gone in the 1-2 hour range...
so let employers test..just cause it is legal, don't mean you get to do it. just means you could do it without getting popped. if your job don't allow then, thats the breaks...get a new job. don't smoke grass.
why would you lose custody of your kids when stoned, especially if grass is legal?
where are you coming from?


just cuase it would be legal don't mean people would have carte blanche' to do it across the board.....there has to be age restrictions and such. the goal is not to criminalize such a thing and not to ruin peoples lives by tossing them in jail for something they, as an adult chose to do.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
You also need to allow employers to test when ever they want to protect their company.

If I came into work drunk I'd be in much worse trouble than if I came in stoned. Hoewver, I'm sure the same results would follow.

Also unless you get a baby sitter when you are stoned you might loose custody of your kids.

Do you lose custody of your kids when you have a beer after work?

Originally posted by budski
That's all very well, but you're completely ignoring the social consequences of widespread drug use - and I include legal drugs like nicotine and alcohol.

Which prohibition has done nothing to combat. And additionally,the government has no place in culture.

Originally posted by budski
And there are many social consequences that you seem to either not see or ignore.
No offense

Maybe it's time to share those reasons instead of ignoring my posts (I'm guessing because you're unable to form a rebuttal?) and then doing your silly thing.

I spent time on my post, refuting every one of your points with the hopes that you'd read and either learn from it or correct me. I ignored all of your immaturity. The least I ask is that you explain yourself and quit resorting to attempts at ridicule and personal attacks.

hello guys well here is the deal the jail system will only get bigger, here is the current plan as they have it another terror attack will occur on or around the date 9/13/07 soon after marshal law will come into effect bush will keep control, also about camps we already have fema camps that were set up as far back as 1995, we have dozens of fema camps around us, and they will use them after marshal law, the first wave of using them will be when they start to come after NRA members all over us and take registered guns, they start small unsudden, and ease police state and marshall law and finally world govnt into place

reply to post by Johnmike


I've addressed all your points in previous posts and see no need to repeat myself.
I'm under no obligation to reply to anything anybody says, and trying to goad me into responding is frankly puerile.

Now please show where I insulted you or anyone else.

Okay Budski, fair enough.

I just want to ask 2 questions.

1. Do you believe that drug laws are a major contributor to the prison population in the US? This includes drug related crime, not just possession and trafficking.

2. What do you attribute the high prison populations to?

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Okay Budski, fair enough.

I just want to ask 2 questions.

1. Do you believe that drug laws are a major contributor to the prison population in the US? This includes drug related crime, not just possession and trafficking.

2. What do you attribute the high prison populations to?

The drug laws themselves aren't a contributor - people using/supplying/importing etc drugs are the cause. Marijuana is not a major contributor to prison population, but other drugs are.

The same stats I posted on a previous page show prison population by offense type, but here's some more info:

For violent offenses, the number of persons in prison began at 173,300 in 1980 and increased to a high of 650,400 in 2003.

For property offenses, the number of persons in prison began at 89,300 in 1980 and rose to 262,000 in 2003.

For drug offenses, the number of persons in prison began at 19,000 in 1980 and rose, reaching 265,000 in 2002. Then the number decreased to 250,900 in 2003.

For public order offenses, the number of persons in prison began at 12,400 in 1980 and increased to a high of 129,900 in 2001. The number then decreased, reaching 86,400 in 2003.

source

Here's some more:
www.ojp.usdoj.gov...
www.ojp.usdoj.gov...

also see:
www.ojp.usdoj.gov...

All crime has increased for the time period shown, but violent crime has increased dramatically.
To what do I attribute this?
Mostly socio-economic factors, with race issues included in this.

However, it might just be that the US is a very violent country, with very lax gun laws - although I believe this is over simplistic.

Originally posted by budski
The drug laws themselves aren't a contributor - people using/supplying/importing etc drugs are the cause. Marijuana is not a major contributor to prison population, but other drugs are.

i can't believe you actualy believe this....it's not the laws
you do know why it was made illegal right?
when it was legal, there were not these problems. they try to play nanny and now we have problems......

Originally posted by Boondock78

Originally posted by budski
The drug laws themselves aren't a contributor - people using/supplying/importing etc drugs are the cause. Marijuana is not a major contributor to prison population, but other drugs are.

i can't believe you actualy believe this....it's not the laws

you do know why it was made illegal right?
when it was legal, there were not these problems. they try to play nanny and now we have problems......

Ok, so why not make everything legal - crack, coke, heroin the lot! and while your at it, why not make rogering minors legal - I mean some people like it and if it weren't against the law, no-one would hear about it, and the problem's gone.
Hell, why not legalise violence - if someone get's beaten up it must be their fault, right?
And of course by your logic, it's the womans fault for dressing provocatively if she gets raped.

Why should something be legal, just because a few stoners say it causes no problems - show me real stats or evidence to back up your case, rather than just opinion and rhetoric, and I might listen - until then, you have no case.

Holland has legal marijuana venues in Amsterdam - and they still have large amounts of drug crimes from marijuana usage and other harder drug usage.

[edit on 23/8/2007 by budski]

Originally posted by budski

Ok, so why not make everything legal - crack, coke, heroin the lot!

Personally I think it would be a good idea. If we could regulate it rather than punish for it. All the criminalization does is add violence and underhanded tactics to the distribution of it. What would be the problem if they were legal?

and while your at it, why not make rogering minors legal - I mean some people like it and if it weren't against the law, no-one would hear about it, and the problem's gone.

The problem there is that there is a definate innocent victim of this crime. I know you see the difference.

Hell, why not legalise violence - if someone get's beaten up it must be their fault, right?

Again, victims.

And of course by your logic, it's the womans fault for dressing provocatively if she gets raped.

Show me how that's part of the logical trail?

Why should something be legal, just because a few stoners say it causes no problems - show me real stats or evidence to back up your case, rather than just opinion and rhetoric, and I might listen - until then, you have no case.

Unfortunately that's not the way logic and reason works. It's supposed to be the that the something is illegal because someone proves it causes a problem and infringes upon the rights and/or well being of another. By your logic caffeine should be criminalized until some "jitter-bugs" can tell me why it causes no problems. It's backwards reasoning there Budski.

Holland has legal marijuana venues in Amsterdam - and they still have large amounts of drug crimes from marijuana usage and other harder drug usage.

That's because the majority of marijuana use is still illegal, as are the other harder drugs. Legalize them all, and you have better control and less violence relating to them.

The simplest example would be aclohol prohibition. If you can show me how that's different I'll listen, but until then I think we should follow the example set in the 30s.

[edit on 23-8-2007 by Rasobasi420]

reply to post by Rasobasi420


Sorry, but I disagree - nowhere has it been proven that government control of substances lessens the problems - and you still seem to be of the opinion that drugs are a victimless crime - they are not, and never will be. If they were legal, addicts would still steal to feed their addiction. The black market in drugs would fourish and violence would escalate as gangs sought power over a diminished market, whilst undercutting legal suppliers.

Opinion and rhetoric do not prove anything - they merely show a lack of a coherent factual argument, based on personal feelings rather than facts.

Originally posted by budski

Ok, so why not make everything legal - crack, coke, heroin the lot!

^^^^cool with me...legalized and regualted.....fine

and while your at it, why not make rogering minors legal - I mean some people like it and if it weren't against the law, no-one would hear about it, and the problem's gone.

^^^^i am going to guess that 'rogering' minors is some sort of pedophilia and as you know, that is a crime that has a victim....not the same....nice try though

Hell, why not legalise violence - if someone get's beaten up it must be their fault, right?

^^^weak ass argument......

And of course by your logic, it's the womans fault for dressing provocatively if she gets raped.

^^^^uh, not at all. YOU are trying to put all this crap in my mouth...i said NOTHING of the sort....

Why should something be legal, just because a few stoners say it causes no problems -

^^^well, this topic has been debated numerous times before...if you want stats, hit the wiki, hit norml.com....they are there AND, it's a lot more than a few 'stoners' saying it causes no problems....even if it does cause problems, it is for the adult that chooses to use it....that means, it is a personal choice......that is what a victimless crime is you see. it's a 'crime' that does not hurt or interfer with someone elses life, but you know this...

i'll be toking tonight just like last and the night before....now i ask you, how am i hurting anyone, as an adult who chooses to use it in the comfort of my own home?


Holland has legal marijuana venues in Amsterdam - and they still have large amounts of drug crimes from marijuana usage and other harder drug usage.

[edit on 23/8/2007 by budski]

^^^^like what? how much of what crime?

why do people always make the jump from grass to in your case 'rogering' kids or women getting raped?
you're jumping all over the place.....

the only stats that are important IMO is, that grass is a natural substance with many medical benefits and nobody has ever died from an MJ OD and even if they have, so what?
personal choice...