Jail Nation, page 2


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reply posted on 21-8-2007 @ 12:33 PM by Jazzerman
Great topic Budski, but a tough question to answer definitively. I think the problem stems from a number of different sources, which can effectively be deduced into sociological and economic reasons. For example:

In modern times populations in the United States have soared creating a more urbanized environment and a greater need for consumption, with higher demand for goods and a supply that does not meet that demand. Those on the lower end of spectrum that lack educational opportunity and/or economic power find that as their own supply dwindles and their demand for goods increase, they have no economic way to obtain those goods. This creates more crime in certain areas, and as the economically stable family units move to "safer" areas it decreases the likelihood of more growth in that area. Thus, it turns the area into a zone heavy in crime. Limited or fractional resources in said area are unevenly disbursed and people begin competing for those resources. This leads to the formation of gang culture, and people with similar interests band together to fulfill a common goal...increase supply. In order for this to happen physical violence levels increase as competitors look to gain said resources.

This leads to an increase in the amount of police officers that are needed to contain this violence, and an upsurge in the amount of public disturbance that can now be considered a "crime". Both the public and lawmakers begin to see a connection between crimes once considered mere misdemeanors and violent behavior. Essentially, I believe this is why we see a large amount of the prison population shifting from violent offenders to non-violent offenders. Tougher sentensing compounds the issue when concerned with drug laws, as many now see drugs as a gateway into a violent culture (whether this is unfounded or not is for everyone else to decide).

This is essentially how one social and economic problem escalates into the huge issue we see in modern times with the abundance of gang violence and it's relationship with the drug trade. Lawmakers and the police force are quick to dispel any societal problem without actually fixing the problem where it starts, that is through prevention, education, and a greater means to gain economic opportunities. The surge in the amount of individuals placed in Correctional care is in direct relation to this societal ill. There is a large culture of collective individuals who seem to believe that areas of both urban and rural culture steeped in violence are unable to be changed both socially and economically, and that the cost of change is far greater that the quick fix of simply locking them away. So, we begin to see Correctional Institutions overflow with prisoners convicted of non-violent or non-sexual crimes, and the early release of prisoners that actually need to be locked up (such as pedophiles, rapists, murderers, etc.).

There are other issues involved in this problem as well, including:

Race
Environment
Sex
Discrimination
Unemployment
Poverty
War
Homelessness
etc.

This is a huge task to comprehend and a very hard mentality to break in a society that is so quick to judge others by racial, ethnic, and societal standards. Almost the entire history of humanity can be traced back to that economic law of supply and demand and our search for a common equilibrium...you find that, and problems with society will dissolve.


reply posted on 21-8-2007 @ 01:28 PM by West Coast
Originally posted by budski
Thats one hell of a stat - 5% of the planets population, nearly one quarter of the planets prisoners.

Is this an indictment of a violent nation?
Or is it that the US locks up more people for other reasons.
Not being a US citizen, I can't answer, but I'm horrified by the information - 2.2 million behind bars, 5 million on probation or parole.
I think that there are probably social factors at work here as well, but I just can't get away from those numbers......


Hello Mr. budski. There are many 'tacky' laws in the US. It is all to easy to go to jail here. We fill our jails up with "stoners" whilst rapist and child molesters get a slap on the wrist. Even though here in the states your considered an 'adult' at age 18, you are not allowed to have a pint until your 21. You can go to jail for this as well if your caught drinking under the age of 21. Our jailing system is a total failure. We fill our jails up with people that would just be your average joe in europe. Its quite sad really. Peoples lifes here can be ruined for just having an ounce of weed on them.

Now this doesnt mean other nations are scotch free here. many nations (like china and india for instance) do not keep accurate records in regards to there jailing systems. China especially. It has been long rumored that china intentionally goes out and rounds up suspected 'suspects' and uses them as slave labor to help prolong the 'china miracle'. So I would say that out of all the nations the US is probably the most honest in regards to whos most accurate with prisoner head counts. That doesnt change the tacky laws though.


reply posted on 21-8-2007 @ 01:41 PM by budski
reply to post by Jazzerman



The race issue is one I'm trying to look at, but I'm having a little trouble finding reliable sources - the one's I've looked at so far, are either too liberal in their views or are an extension of racist propaganda.

However I have noticed that there is a definite context of ethnic victimisation, in that some of the more liberal sites seem to want to glorify ethnic victimisation to the extent that there is an aura of "professional victims" towards those they profess to help, whilst saying that it is all the fault of the majority.
I don't think this approach helps anyone, least of all the alleged victims themselves.
There seems to be a culture of minorities being told that nothing is their fault - and although some blame can be laid at the door of the majority, it is the promotion of the victim culture which leads to a lack of motivation in some ethnic minority groups.
It's almost as though the militant liberals are promoting the idea that minority ethnic groups are automatically owed a living, when this is simply not the case.
I also want to have a look at education and opportunities for further education amongst minority ethnic communities, in order to see if (as the ultra liberals say) opportunity has been denied, or is difficult to obtain.

I could answer this quite easily if the question were about the UK, but I have no real depth of understanding of the US issues on the same subject.


reply posted on 21-8-2007 @ 01:59 PM by budski
On the issue of marijuana, there are very few people imprisoned for simple possession, but many more for importing, selling and distribution
www.albany.edu...
And I would agree with this policy in general - marijuana is very bulky, and is usually imported with much harder drugs in order to make the trip sufficiently profitable.
However, for simple possession, jail seems a little harsh.
It's pretty clear from the figures shown that legalising marijuana would reduce the prison population a little, but not a significant amount.

It's also pretty clear that a first offense for simple possession rarely results in a jail term
www.albany.edu...

What I'd like to say, before this turns into a legalize marijuana debate, is that possession does not result in overcrowded and rising prison populations.
I concede that supplying/importing etc of marijuana increases prison levels, but I've already stated my view on this.
So let's not turn this into a debate about drugs - let's look at the bigger picture here



reply posted on 21-8-2007 @ 04:01 PM by Rockpuck
Originally posted by budski

Point taken, but I think there's more to this than just enforcing anti social behaviour laws.
I've been having a look at some dept of justice figures, and there is a definite correlation between race and prison stats:

At yearend 2005 there were 3,145 black male sentenced prison inmates per 100,000 black males in the United States, compared to 1,244 Hispanic male inmates per 100,000 Hispanic males and 471 white male inmates per 100,000 white males.

source

and

www.ojp.usdoj.gov...

And this is also worth a look:
www.hrw.org...

It seems that more crime is committed by non white ethnic groups, but why is this?

I know some of the factors that drive this in the UK, but this is the US we are talking about.
I'm aghast in some respects by the disparity of per capita prisoners by ethnic group.


Perhaps thats because blacks actually do commit more crimes then other races? Everyone beats around the bush, and no one EVER gives that actual consideration.

In my town its poor blacks and poor whites that commit most of the crime, but the over all blanket statement is poor uneducated folks with no real jobs and a broken moral society. Color in my opinion has little to do with who gets sentenced what. But hey, thats my opinion.

Also, the United States has a higher prison pop because we have a better law enforcement.

Assuming countries like Mexico had our ability and arrested drug sellers and consumers they would be over populated to. Maybe iori has a point, maybe we are to strict.



reply posted on 21-8-2007 @ 04:42 PM by Boondock78
it's people of all races getting popped for lame, victimless crimes..these people may or may not have comitted a 'crime' before...who knows.?

people are getting put in jail at a younger age, for 'less severe'(don't know a good word) crimes and they are coming out with a record. now it's going to be even HARDER for them to stay on the straight and narrow.
the correct/right road is not the easy one man.
there are a million reason why you could find yourself say 19 and now with a record, post a few months jail.
chances are not good.
what if you get a longer term? it's not rehab in jail, it's crime education...
go in to learn how to be a better criminal.
the system just don't work.

you're out with some buddies, one of them are stupid and gets something going and before you know it, 'it' is out of control and the law is on the way.
good luck

if i get popped for ANY crim between now and july 10th of next year, i 'owe' the judge 10 days in jail. i got busted for fireworks and they suspended the sentence.
what happens if i get popped for a brake light and i go in for 10 days? then, in the middle of that 10 days i find myself in the middle of some jail scuffle? maybe someone gets hurt...maybe i hurt someone?
now i get a few months or a year added on....

i know i am talking 10 days but things of this type happen all the time. it just makes it tougher in the long run and raises the chances(imo) that you're going to get busted again.

plates get run, you have a record, cop is a prick...all kinds of things can happen.
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