Jail Nation

Originally posted by budski
and you still seem to be of the opinion that drugs are a victimless crime - they are not, and never will be.

^^^you're the authority?

If they were legal, addicts would still steal to feed their addiction.

^^^how do you know? we talking MJ 'addicts' bwuahahahah?


The black market in drugs would fourish and violence would escalate as gangs sought power over a diminished market, whilst undercutting legal suppliers.

^^^again, you know this how?

Opinion and rhetoric do not prove anything - they merely show a lack of a coherent factual argument, based on personal feelings rather than facts.

you're talking factual arguments and you're trying to toss rape and rogering(whatever the hell that is) into the equation...
you say opinion proves nothing but thats about all you are spewing...



edit* it should be legal for medicinal reasons first and foremost....it is a crime to withold this from people when it can help so many ailments...


[edit on 23-8-2007 by Boondock78]

Originally posted by budski
Ok, so why not make everything legal - crack, coke, heroin the lot! and while your at it, why not make rogering minors legal - I mean some people like it and if it weren't against the law, no-one would hear about it, and the problem's gone.

Yup. Let culture regulate itself. Making it illegal forced it into the black market, and therefore making it impossible to regulate.

Originally posted by budski
Hell, why not legalise violence - if someone get's beaten up it must be their fault, right?

Nope. If you're beaten up, you're a victim. Your rights have been infringed on by another. You were, in a sense, forced into that "contract" (the fight, getting your ass kicked). When you are coerced, you are a victim, and your rights of an individual have been infringed upon. That is where the state must protect you.

Originally posted by budski
And of course by your logic, it's the womans fault for dressing provocatively if she gets raped.

Is this a straw man, or do you really think that? I'm kind of astounded that you would say such a thing (you never really seemed good at arguing your points effectively, but I didn't assume that you were a moron).
No. If a man or a woman is raped, that is involuntary and forced. There is a definite victim there. The person being raped is getting their rights as an individual infringed on by the person doing the raping. Again, coercion.

Originally posted by budski
Why should something be legal, just because a few stoners say it causes no problems - show me real stats or evidence to back up your case, rather than just opinion and rhetoric, and I might listen - until then, you have no case.

I don't drink, I don't smoke, I have never done drugs. I don't even like taking Advil. Don't call me a stoner again.

What statistics do you desire? The entire point is simple and easy to comprehend (even though I repeat myself several times at every step just for you). If you decide to buy, say, marijuana, and someone else decides to sell it, you enter a voluntary, mutually beneficial contract. No one is being forced. There is no coercion. No one's rights are being infringed upon. No one is harmed from your buying or selling that substance.
Then you decide to smoke the marijuana. There's no other party involved - it's just yourself. No one is hurt.

Originally posted by budski
Holland has legal marijuana venues in Amsterdam - and they still have large amounts of drug crimes from marijuana usage and other harder drug usage.

This quote is just silly. Come on, look at it.

If they have drug crimes from marijuana usage, then it isn't entirely legal, now is it?



(edits are for silly errors in grammar and formatting)

[edit on 23-8-2007 by Johnmike]

reply to post by Boondock78


I've posted all the facts and stats that anybody needs, and heard nothing but opinion and rhetoric in return.
It seems that's all you understand, so I came down to your level.

BTW marijuana is already legal in the US for medical reasons, in some states.
www.drugwarfacts.org...

Now can you rebut ANY of the points I made, with anything other than your own opinion?
Facts, figures, sources?

Didn't think so.......

reply to post by Johnmike


Again - nothing but rhetoric and opinion - show me some facts, show me sources that support your argument, show me statistics, show me something that shows drug use is a victimless crime.

I've done all these things in support of my argument - none of you have.

Johnmike - your imflammatory and senseless baiting at a post replying to someone else shows the kind of person you are.
You've done nothing but spout spurious false arguments intended to derail and flame those who disagree with you - not to mention spitting your dummy out because I didn't see the need to reply to said arguments, because all the points had already been addressed.
I see no point in continuing a debate with someone so close minded and lacking in manners.
You have no coherent argument - you are, in effect, talking rubbish - unless you can refute any of the stats, sources I've cited, I won't answer again.

We have overloaded prisons for the following reasons.

1. Society (some circles) views prison time as a "right of passage" (good point made by another member in my thread)
2. The "War on Drugs". While I don't do illegal drugs (or prescription drugs), this crap has got to stop. It's ridiculous and ppl spend far too much time in prison for minor drug offenses.
3. Our "punishment" in this country is a JOKE. We need to reinstitute corporal punishment. Start flogging a few of these punk ass kids out there that wanna gang it up and go around making it a nightly ritual to assault innocent people and vandalize property that is not theres and you will see a decline in that kind of animal behaivor. Also, the death penalty needs to be carried through more swiftly and efficiently. Sitting on death row for 40 years is a freakin crime in and of itself. On death row? Wanna live? Then kill someone else!! That'll stretch your time out.

Oh yea, the hippy wannabe whiners in this country don't help. "OHHH NOOOO DON'T PUT THAT POOR RAPIST IN JAIL!!! DON'T VIOLATE HIS CIVIL RIGHTS." "OH NO, YOU CAN'T KEEP THAT MOLESTER IN JAIL THAT'S JUST WRONG" blah blah blah blah blah. I hate you people. Put some of that compassion and pity where it belongs...WITH THE VICTIMS!!





Jasn

Originally posted by budski
Again - nothing but rhetoric and opinion

What you call opinion is what the rest of the world calls "logic".

Originally posted by budski
show me some facts, show me sources that support your argument, show me statistics, show me something that shows drug use is a victimless crime.

What statistics can show you that drug use is a victimless crime? What in God's name are you talking about? That's like asking for statistics that prove that water is wet.


The rest of your post is nothing but personal attacks and whatnot, so I'll laugh it off.

reply to post by Johnmike


It's not logic - it's opinion - look up both and check the meanings - you'll find they are different.

What personal attacks? This isn't the first time you've tried to accuse me of that based on nothing. If that's what you think, tell the mods.

The laughable tactic of trying to make a smokescreen in order to hide your lack of a coherent argument has failed,
Again.

Originally posted by budski
It's not logic - it's opinion - look up both and check the meanings - you'll find they are different.

Well, what is? Feel free to address and rip my posts apart. You haven't done so yet.

Originally posted by budski
The laughable tactic of trying to make a smokescreen in order to hide your lack of a coherent argument has failed,
Again.

Okay.

reply to post by Johnmike


I've posted lots of stuff that utterly refutes your arguments - and I have no intention of repeating them - try reading the whole thread.

On the personal attack front - I'm not guilty - like I said, tell the mods if you think i've attacked you.
Oh that's right, you can't - because you were guilty of a terminological inexactitude.

I've posted my PROOF, figures from the dept of justice - a pretty good source - have you been able to provide any evidence to refute them?
No.

Goodbye

You posted figures of prison populations. I don't understand how that remotely relates to the fact that I'm magically harming people by smoking marijuana. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Please, calm down and be mature.

Originally posted by Johnmike
You posted figures of prison populations. I don't understand how that remotely relates to the fact that I'm magically harming people by smoking marijuana. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Please, calm down and be mature.

I posted a lot more than that, and I'm perfectly calm thank you, and a lot more mature than someone who makes baseless accusations and fails to back them up. I'll say it again - If you think I'm guilty of personal attacks, then tell the mods. If you can't do that, through lack of evidence, then you owe me an apology.

For the sake of clarity (yours), I'll reiterate:
Marijuana does not magically appear with your local friendly dealer, he is the last person in a long chain of dealers, suppliers and importers many of whom belong to criminal gangs and organisations. These gangs use drug money to fuel other criminal enterprises, they also import much harder drugs as well as marijuana - this from crime reports, statistics and personal knowledge of criminal gangs. These criminals also commit acts of horrific violence and everything that goes with that to protect their income source.
So when you buy marijuana, you are perpetuating the chain of criminality and violence - you have to look beyond the guy who sells a bit of smoke and look at the whole picture.
There's also the link with prostitution, drugs and criminal gangs, not to mention pimps, violence against prostitutes and perpetuation of the subjugation of women forced into a life of prostitution by the same criminal gangs.

I've posted all this before, although worded differently.

Originally posted by budski
Is this an indictment of a violent nation?

Not at all. If anything it shows the inequality of our justice system. Prison is for violent offenders. They were built to keep the public safe. Not house the public.

Source

Justice Department surveys show that 52.7% of state prison inmates, 73.7% of jail inmates, and 87.6% of federal inmates were imprisoned for offenses which involved neither harm, nor the threat of harm, to a victim. Based on this data, we estimate that by the end of 1998, there were 440,088 nonviolent jail inmates, 639,280 nonviolent state prison inmates, and 106,090 nonviolent federal prisoners locked up in America, for a total 1,185,458 nonviolent prisoners.

The justice system in this country is in need of drastic reform. Drug Abuse treatment and counceling for drug offenders and additional JAIL time for repeat offenders. I think we should have a three strikes and your out for criminal drug offenders. But, before we do that, we need a major reform of Drug Classifications. Marijuana (I don't care how much someone is caught with) should not be considered a felony. Crack? ok. Heroin? ok. Pot? not so much. Alcohol? should be treated with stronger regulations than canabis due to the death rate which is attributed to it.

EDIT: For source reference.

[edit on 23-8-2007 by tyranny22]

Originally posted by budski
I posted a lot more than that, and I'm perfectly calm thank you, and a lot more mature than someone who makes baseless accusations and fails to back them up. I'll say it again - If you think I'm guilty of personal attacks, then tell the mods. If you can't do that, through lack of evidence, then you owe me an apology.

I don't consider moderation to be necessary in small cases like that.

Originally posted by budski
For the sake of clarity (yours), I'll reiterate:

Okay, here we go.

Originally posted by budski
Marijuana does not magically appear with your local friendly dealer, he is the last person in a long chain of dealers, suppliers and importers many of whom belong to criminal gangs and organisations. These gangs use drug money to fuel other criminal enterprises, they also import much harder drugs as well as marijuana - this from crime reports, statistics and personal knowledge of criminal gangs. These criminals also commit acts of horrific violence and everything that goes with that to protect their income source.
So when you buy marijuana, you are perpetuating the chain of criminality and violence - you have to look beyond the guy who sells a bit of smoke and look at the whole picture.

Right! And that's a good portion of why marijuana should be legalized. Since it's currently illegal, it only exists as a black market. That's why gangs are involved.

Just look at when the United States attempted the prohibition of alcohol. How much power did organized crime gain by smuggling alcohol?

I'll say it again in the same post: the reason it has so many ties to crime is because IT IS ILLEGAL. Can you go down to the store and buy a beer? Yes. Is that supporting the mob? No. Because it's not an illegal black market anymore.

Originally posted by budski
There's also the link with prostitution, drugs and criminal gangs, not to mention pimps, violence against prostitutes and perpetuation of the subjugation of women forced into a life of prostitution by the same criminal gangs.

Once again, that's because IT'S BEEN FORCED UNDERGROUND. It's a black market because it's illegal to buy and sell drugs (and engage in prostitution). By prohibiting these things, the only people who offer them are criminals. And since drug smuggling and prostitution are criminal businesses, the organizations most capable of taking part in them are organized crime.


Prohibition is the entire REASON that drugs and prostitution have such strong ties to the criminal underground. These can EASILY be seen if you analyze the history of alcohol prohibition. Ending prohibition means that you take such power away from criminals.

Originally posted by budski
I've posted all this before, although worded differently.

And I've directly addressed and rebutted all this before. But I think you ignored that post, too. Either way, read this one - it's a more condensed version.

Originally posted by budski

Marijuana does not magically appear with your local friendly dealer, he is the last person in a long chain of dealers, suppliers and importers many of whom belong to criminal gangs and organisations.

you sound like a commercial.
certainly that does happen BUT, it happens cause it is illegal. make it legal and all that crap goes away.
also, my local friendly dealer has nothing to do with cartels...grows herself...
am i still supporting all that crap?

you seriously sound like you regurgitated that from a dare leaflet or something.
it was partly correct though...

if it was legal, how many people would STOP buying from their local dealer, and start growing their own or buy the factory shipped kind?
use your head man

I don't consider moderation to be necessary in small cases like that.

Do you have any idea how arrogant that sounds?
You couldn't back up the accusation, so you bottled it

Right! And that's a good portion of why marijuana should be legalized. Since it's currently illegal, it only exists as a black market. That's why gangs are involved.

Again - this thread is not about the legalisation of marijuana - it's about the law as it stands NOW - and why the prison population is so high in the US.

Once again, that's because IT'S BEEN FORCED UNDERGROUND. It's a black market because it's illegal to buy and sell drugs (and engage in prostitution). By prohibiting these things, the only people who offer them are criminals. And since drug smuggling and prostitution are criminal businesses, the organizations most capable of taking part in them are organized crime.

I disagree entirely, there is no sociological evidence to suggest this.

Your whole answer rests on the dubious premise that because prohibition was unsuccessful with alcohol (a much more widespread intoxicant than any modern controlled drug) then it must be unsuccessful with everything else.

Prostitution is legal in Holland, yet criminal gangs are still involved.

There is no evidence to suggest that legalising any drug would lessen the influence of criminal gangs.
There IS evidence to suggest that legalising drugs would worsen the problem of criminality.

Again - drugs are not a victimless crime - despite what pseudo liberals would have you believe.
The push for legalisation comes from a small percentage of society who don't want to be criminalised because of the lifestyle choice they made - in other words they're as hypocritical as any politician because they are protecting their self interests.



[edit on 23/8/2007 by budski]

reply to post by tyranny22


I agree - marijuana should not be a felony, nor is it a gateway drug, and nor does it have the bad effects that governments try to tell us it has, I don't even think it should be illegal.

But that's the law as it stands, and that's what the discussion is about - or should be.
There's a list of convictions in one of my posts, and fraud, robbery and white collar crime feature heavily - are you advocating leniency for these types of crime? I ask for clarification purposes.

This thread has been dragged so far off topic by people who want marijuana legalised that it bears little resemblance to the original question.



[edit on 23/8/2007 by budski]

reply to post by Boondock78


WTF is a dare leaflet?
All of what I said is correct.

As for your source - there is a massive seed and hydroponics industry - and guess who controls large sections of it?

Personally, I wouldn't take the risk of growing, not in the US - the penalties don't make it an attractive proposition.

You guys really make me laugh - all giving each other stars and pats on the back for spewing out the same, tired old rubbish started by the hippies in the 60's.


[edit on 23/8/2007 by budski]

You want statistics, I just happened to find some.

Per Capita Consumption of Alcoholic Beverages (Gallons of Pure Alcohol) 1910-1929.

Homocide rate 1910-1944

Total Expenditure on Distilled Spirts as a Percentage of Total Alcohol Sales (1890-1960)


This doesn't show you the blatantly obvious fact that no one is hurt by my use of marijuana if it's legal (thus negating the criminal element), but it shows how counter-productive substance prohibition is.

[edit on 23-8-2007 by Johnmike]

Originally posted by budski


WTF is a dare leaflet?

^^^look it up...you probably have one laying around somewhere

All of what I said is correct.

^^^^in your mind



Personally, I wouldn't take the risk of growing, not in the US - the penalties don't make it an attractive proposition.

^^^^cookie time?

You guys really make me laugh - all giving each other stars and pats on the back for spewing out the same, tired old rubbish started by the hippies in the 60's.

[edit on 23/8/2007 by budski]

same tired rubbish huh...rubbish as in wanting to choose as adults what we indulge in...

all you keep saying is it is illegal now....it is illegal now....

yes, we know that, and as i said, just cause something is illegal, does not make it just.....do you not get that man?
do you follow everything blindly cause thats whats on the books?

how about you decide thigns for yourself...question authority a little but...you know, LIVE.....
try it...

i agree with john...your arguments are weak and imo, you really don't know what you're talking about...so, now you can get this thread back on the 'proper track'

off to smoke

There is NO country where it is totally legal, even in Canada and the Netherlands you will still be arrested if you are found with amounts above a certain limit.

Also Canada has legal weed and guess what? Criminal groups are still involved with the production and trafficking of pot. In March 2005 several RCMP officers were killed in a raid on an illegal pot growing farm in Alberta.

en.wikipedia.org...

Four RCMP officers were shot dead during an operation to recover stolen property and investigate a possible marijuana grow-op in Rochfort Bridge, Alberta. Shooter Jim Roszko, 46, then shot and killed himself. It was the single worst multiple killing of RCMP officers since the Northwest Rebellion. One of the four Mounties killed had been on the job for only seventeen days. The victims were:

* Const. Lionide (Leo) Nicholas Johnston, 34 — Mayerthorpe Detachment
* Const. Anthony Fitzgerald Orion Gordon, 28 — Whitecourt Town Detachment General Policing and Highway Patrol
* Const. Brock Warren Myrol, 29 — Mayerthorpe Detachment
* Const. Peter Christopher Schiemann, 25 — Mayerthorpe Detachment General Policing and Highway Patrol

[edit on 23-8-2007 by ChrisF231]