Jail Nation

Originally posted by budski
I've shown evidence that legalising cannabis would not significantly reduce the prison population - what's the problem?

That's because there isn't much violent crime related to cannabis. However, legalizing heroin, coc aine, and other heavily trafficked illegal drugs would certainly cut down no the gang related violence associated with it.

Originally posted by budski
But that's the law as it stands, and that's what the discussion is about - or should be.
There's a list of convictions in one of my posts, and fraud, robbery and white collar crime feature heavily - are you advocating leniency for these types of crime? I ask for clarification purposes.

Aaaahhhhh. You make a good point. Of course, I'm biased in the point I made, I'm sure you can tell, so I didn't take into consideration other non-violent crimes as such.

I don't believe our prisons should be overstocked with criminals of this nature, still. I think the punishment should fit the crime. Of course this is a childish answer, but if someone were to steal/rob/embezzle money, I believe they should me made to work off the equivalent of what they've stolen — at 1907's wages. That's a lot of man hours for ENRON!

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

Originally posted by budski
I've shown evidence that legalising cannabis would not significantly reduce the prison population - what's the problem?

That's because there isn't much violent crime related to cannabis. However, legalizing heroin, coc aine, and other heavily trafficked illegal drugs would certainly cut down no the gang related violence associated with it.

But would it cut down on burglary, theft and muggings?
I don't think so - an addict might be a legal addict but he'd still need his fix money - unless you're advocating sponsored addiction?

Originally posted by tyranny22

Aaaahhhhh. You make a good point. Of course, I'm biased in the point I made, I'm sure you can tell, so I didn't take into consideration other non-violent crimes as such.

I don't believe our prisons should be overstocked with criminals of this nature, still. I think the punishment should fit the crime. Of course this is a childish answer, but if someone were to steal/rob/embezzle money, I believe they should me made to work off the equivalent of what they've stolen — at 1907's wages. That's a lot of man hours for ENRON!

Which would mean more money for the corporation - of course there's always work to benefit the community as well, and there are already programmes in place for this, but it doesn't address the question of rehab nor does it stop problems of re-offending - which rehab does.

Originally posted by budski

But would it cut down on burglary, theft and muggings?
I don't think so - an addict might be a legal addict but he'd still need his fix money - unless you're advocating sponsored addiction?

well, there is not going to be some grass addicts out there mugging people for cash to buy grass with..as i said, you sound like a dare leaflet.

it would cut down on people being in jail for all crimes...a lot of younger kids or young adults get popped for simple posession and THAT is the catalyst that gets the ball rolling. NOW they are on paper. NOW they are on probation or something and have a 'record'...
once you have a record, it sure is a hell of a lot easier for the cops to snatch you up.

as far as other drugs go(as well as booze and smokes), there will always be people with addiction....
we don't pull booze off the shelves no matter how many poeple die per year. no many how many people murder and hurt others in a drunken rage....the product is still LEGAL, and for sale.....same thing should go for grass.

does booze being legal stop dui? of course not, BUT, you don't have millions of people in jail for posession...instead, you have thousands in that try to make their own shine or hash(booze)

make grass legal and all those people that are low on the totum pole can be left alone. all that money spent to bust joe dime bag buyer can be saved for the REAL problem which would be the violent cartels.....legalizing it alone would put a huge dent in them. add the fact that man power, and money is now free to go after them, and you're solving problems dude.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

Originally posted by budski
I've shown evidence that legalising cannabis would not significantly reduce the prison population - what's the problem?

That's because there isn't much violent crime related to cannabis. However, legalizing heroin, coc aine, and other heavily trafficked illegal drugs would certainly cut down no the gang related violence associated with it.

Boondock - this was the question, about harder drugs, not cannabis - why the obsession with turning this thread into a crusade for legalizing cannabis?
That's not the subject - could you please stay on topic.

Originally posted by budski
Boondock - this was the question, about harder drugs, not cannabis - why the obsession with turning this thread into a crusade for legalizing cannabis?
That's not the subject - could you please stay on topic.

get off my ass with the on/off topic crap. i am on topic....call a mod if you have a problem...i can't read your mind...what you said was addicts so i wanted to clear it up see.

i am not obsessed BUT, since it is a huge part of the jail problem/prison population, i feel it is on topic....i didn't start the mj talk and i am fine about talking about other aspects of this issue but if the mj is brought up, i am going to get in on it....
i wanted to clear up if you were talking about MJ 'addicts' robbing for a fix...you did not specify

reply to post by Boondock78


Then you should read the whole thing and respond accordingly.

I've shown repeatedly that marijuana possession does not affect prison rates, yet you persist with the whole "make cannabis legal" stuff.

When you get on topic, I'll stop posting about you being off topic - that simple.
Why should I allow you to ruin a good discussion with your pro cannabis propaganda?

The debate in this thread needs to become far more civil, imo, before anyone decides to ignite themselves in a flamefest.

This discussion is interesting, though, because it seems that the illegal drg trade does contribute a great deal to an increasing incarceration. Is it just MJ? I doubt it and would point my finger at the more addictive substances that are prevelant in America today, such as crack coc aine, heroin, crystal meth etc.

Here's some interesting stats for your perusal...

Serious violent crime levels declined since 1993
-snip-
Property crime rates continue to decline.
-snip-
Violent crime rates declined for both males and females since 1994.
-snip-
Firearm-related crime has plummeted since 1993, then slightly increased in 2005

www.ojp.usdoj.gov...

Estimated arrests for drug abuse violations by age group, 1970-2005

1970 adult - 322,300 juvenile - 93,300

-snip-

2005 adult - 1,654,600 juvemile - 191,800

www.ojp.usdoj.gov...

edit to place links correctly


[edit on 24/8/07 by masqua]

Originally posted by budski
Why should I allow you to ruin a good discussion with your pro cannabis propaganda?

well, it's not propoganda and you don't own the board/thread..it is public discusion...like i said, call a mod..

btw, what happened to click>ignore.......you shouldn't be seeing any of these posts anyway..

edit* my sources are up there.

of course the illegal drug trade effects the population masqua....it is the single biggest contributor.....



[edit on 24-8-2007 by Boondock78]

Its been my experience at least in my area, that a large factor in the minority crime rate is the government handouts.

These handouts keep people happy to an extent, as long as they don't have a job, or don't make to much, they get money handed to them, free or very cheap housing, vouchers for just about anything ect ect.

The problem is it just barely keeps them happy, they get everything they need, without having to work for it, but not everything they want, if they want to be able to have the things they want, this requires them going out, educating themselves and working.... in the case of such things, if you make to much you are no longer qualified to receive the free handouts, and they don't want to give that up, so rather then going out and making something of themselves, they choose to stay where it feels comfy, and they resort to stealing and crime to make up for getting the things they want.

Originally posted by ninthaxis
There is a recent case of the FBI setting up 2 men for murder. They were in prison for 30 years. There are also many cases of people who should have gone to prison that didn't. Of course it's harder to prove that the government set people up than it is for letting criminals go. I live in a small city (56,000 people) and there isn't much violence here. Its just alcohol is being cracked down on. It is illegal to be "under the influence" on city streets these days. This town has 3 universities and at one point the highest concentration of bars in one area. Now it is illegal for these students to walk home from the bars if they display signs of slurred speech, red eyes, abnormal walking. These students are put on electronic monitoring for a first offense, second offense is jail. Stupid things like this cause the 2 year old jail to already be over crowded.

Oh my god that is so stupid. If that was the case here in Finland about 90% of our population would be in stay. It is "illegal" to be drunk in public places but hell we dont get to do jailtime because of that. Maybe a lock-up until you are sober. And if that happens you REALLY have to do spmething stupid like fight or take a piss on the windscreen of a police car =D

reply to post by C0le


I agree 100%. Or they begin to sell drugs to supplement. I think welfare should be a limited-per-individual resource. I agree with welfare, but sometimes I think it's done to keep people where they are. After all, why is it you don't see liquor store/gun store, liquor store/gun store on the "good" side of town?

These people are subject to these lifestyles and "trapped" by a life of their "choosing." But, if they were never allowed to live such an "easy" life, I doubt any of them would "choose" to live that lifestyle.

We have immigrants coming into the country to take the jobs these people are unwilling to work. But, if welfare were taken away after so long, many would be faced with getting a job. Maybe then they'd want to further their education and get out of the "dead-end" job.

It's a vicious cycle that our Congress chooses to ignore. It's not a real hard fix. But, in the overall picture - the people in Congress and running major corporation benefit from the system of "no way out" welfare cycle. And as an added benefit to the taxpayers of America, we get to foot the bill when many of these people are imprisoned for their third stike when they steal a car, or when the gun down a rival gang member, or when the get busted selling an ounce of coc aine for the third time.

[edit on 24-8-2007 by tyranny22]

reply to post by masqua


I'd refute some of that info.
From the same source

For violent offenses, the number of persons in prison began at 173,300 in 1980 and increased to a high of 650,400 in 2003.

For property offenses, the number of persons in prison began at 89,300 in 1980 and rose to 262,000 in 2003.

For drug offenses, the number of persons in prison began at 19,000 in 1980 and rose, reaching 265,000 in 2002. Then the number decreased to 250,900 in 2003.

For public order offenses, the number of persons in prison began at 12,400 in 1980 and increased to a high of 129,900 in 2001. The number then decreased, reaching 86,400 in 2003.

www.ojp.usdoj.gov...
www.ojp.usdoj.gov...

Cannabis possession is not a major contributor to increasing prison levels, and I have shown repeatedly that this is not the case.
However, I think it's also pretty clear from the stats I posted previously that hard drugs do account for SOME of the increase - simply because these offenders are more likely to be guilty of violent crime or property crime/theft/burglary.


[edit on 24/8/2007 by budski]

reply to post by C0le


Absolutely - this problem also occurs in the UK, and many of the known criminals where I live get benefits of one form or another.
This isn't to say that everyone on benefits is a criminal, but whilst the criminal element is free to claim benefits, they also have time to commit crime - which usually happens late at night.

I'm not entirely sure how the US welfare system works, but any social welfare system will get abused in the way you stated, with criminal elements taking advantage of it.

Some interesting info about Amsterdam, where cannabis is available in certain premises and prostitution is legal:

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) - With its scantily-clad prostitutes posing in brothel windows and coffee shops oozing the pungent aroma of cannabis smoke, Amsterdam's Red Light District has always thrived on its seedy atmosphere.

But while the city has long tolerated coffee shops where marijuana is sold openly and fully legalized prostitution in the year 2000, authorities say the network of cobbled alleys and canals is a haven for organized crime where mobsters launder money through real estate, brothels and bars.

"We are very worried about the mixing of the underworld with the above board in the centre of Amsterdam," the city said Thursday in a press release.

"Particularly in the Red Light District, money laundering from real estate... and involvement of organized crime in prostitution, coffee shops, smart shops, and parts of the hotel industry is a cause for concern."
cnews.canoe.ca...

and:

“People in high political circles are saying it can’t be good to have a society so liberal that everything is allowed,” said Kranendonk, editor of Reformist Daily and an increasingly influential voice that resonates in the shifting mainstream of Dutch public opinion. “People are saying we should have values; people are asking for more and more rules in society.”

In cities across the Netherlands, mayors and town councils are closing down shops where marijuana is sold, rolled and smoked. Municipalities are shuttering the brothels where prostitutes have been allowed to ply their trade legally. Parliament is considering a ban on the sale of hallucinogenic “magic mushrooms.” Orthodox Christian members of parliament have introduced a bill that would allow civil officials with moral objections to refuse to perform gay marriages. And Dutch authorities are trying to curtail the activities of an abortion rights group that assists women in neighboring countries where abortions are illegal.

The effort to rein in the Netherlands’ famed social liberties is not limited to the small, newly empowered Christian Union party, which holds two of the 16 ministries in the coalition government formed this year. Increasingly, politicians from the more center-left Labor Party are among the most outspoken proponents of closing some brothels and marijuana shops — known here as “coffee shops.”
The Netherlands is going through the same racial, ethnic and religious metamorphosis as the rest of Western Europe: Large influxes of black, Arab and Muslim immigrants are changing the social complexion of an overwhelmingly white, Christian nation struggling with its loss of homogeneity.

But here those anxieties are exacerbated by alarm over the international crime organizations that have infiltrated the country’s prostitution and drug trades, the increasing prevalence of trafficking in women and children across its borders, and dismay over the Netherlands’ image as an international tourist destination for drugs and sexual debauchery.
De Wolf, the Amsterdam councilman, is part of that movement.

“In the past, we looked at legal prostitution as a women’s liberation issue; now it’s looked at as exploitation of women and should be stopped,” said de Wolf, sitting in the offices of the medical complex where he works as an HIV-AIDS researcher.

He said Amsterdam’s police force is overwhelmed and ill-equipped to fight the sophisticated foreign organized crime networks operating in the city. Laws designed to regulate prostitution and brothel operators have instead opened the trade to criminal gangs, according to de Wolf and other city officials.

Full Article

It seems as though Hollands socially liberal policy of extreme tolerance has backfired.

This is also interesting:

So then, each of the arguments in favour is flawed, not just slightly, but seriously.Each point made by the pro-drugs lobby is based on a truth, but with no understanding of the consequences.

Drug laws help contain a huge social evil which, if they were swept away, would spread unchecked through every layer of society.The truth is that no one can possible be certain what the effect would be but one thing is certain:it would be impossible to reverse the tide in the short to medium term by tightening laws again.Even if it turned out that legalisation created fewer problems than it might, we have no means of knowing and the stakes are too high to abandon caution.

It is sobering to look at what has happened in Amsterdam, where relaxation over the personal use of Marijuana has led to problems. Technically it is illegal to buy and sell Marijuana but official policy is one of toleration.At licensed house parties, a government-funded testing service checks the purity of Ecstasy tablets, but people are not encouraged to use the drug and the police have powers to arrest anyone carrying drugs in.The Netherlands has fewer drug-related deaths and a lower rate of experimental use among school pupils than many other European countries.

All this sounds very promising, positive steps towards formal legalisation with few social costs.But that is just the surface. Many people are beginning to question the experiment.Walking around Amsterdam recently I saw some of the most blatant drug dealing on the street, and drug taking, that I have ever witnessed in any city.Right in front of the main station for example a crowd from nowhere gathered in a few seconds around a man with a plastic bag,bustling around as eager as a flock of hungry pigeons.Within a couple of minutes they were facing walls, on the ground, sitting standing, taking what they were taking.

Amsterdam is a magnet for every man and woman in Europe that would like to be able to sit in a public café and get stoned - or more.People say that if every city was run like Amsterdam, the novelty would wear off.However unless it was the case in every city in the world we would still be likely to see drugs-related tourism.Something has gone wrong with the experiment.Indeed, it has not been repeated across the Netherlands for very good reasons.What parent of teenage children wants to live in a street where Marijuana is openly on sale?

Holland is now clamping down on marijuana growers with a new Act of Parliament.At the same time new powers have been given to town mayors to close the Marijuana coffee shops if hard drugs are sold, delivered, supplied or found on the premises.

The Swiss also made an experiment of their own.A particular park in down-town Zurich was designated a protected area where drug users could go and use drugs without arrest.This was Zurich's answer to the growing drugs menace.Don't harass, just embrace.Don't make things difficult for drug users, make them easy.Instead of hounding them from street corner to street corner, welcome them into a nice open space.No doubt some thought it would mean that scenes like that outside Amsterdam station would move off the streets altogether.

However the park quickly became famous among drug injectors across Switzerland and in other nations.It became a drug injector's paradise, a safe haven for the largest dealers.Non-users felt intimidated, afraid to enter the park or even to go near it.Eventually it all became too much for the city to cope with and the freedoms were removed.
www.globalchange.com...

So it would seem that legalisation of drugs, causes more social problems than it solves.

So are you saying highly packed prison systems are good?

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
So are you saying highly packed prison systems are good?

No, but nor am I saying that legalising ALL drugs is good.

My position is that cannabis should be legal - but I also understand the social issues surrounding this.

Social issues are a major factor in legalising any drug - and these are all too often ignored.

Besides - if you check previous stats posted, you'll see that there is far more to the issue than just drugs, despite what some may think.

Violent crime has been by far the biggest contributor to the high levels of incarceration, and I would suggest that it's more important to tackle this than it is to crusade for legal drug use based on spurious/biased evidence.

All the non biased reading I have done indicates that legalising drugs causes or will cause far more problems than it solves - it'll just mean more junkies, more criminals, more theft from property and person, more burglary etc etc.

I think I've refuted the legalise drugs argument pretty thoroughly, anything more is just repetition.

BTW, could you answer my question about sponsored addiction? where will the addicts get the drug money from?

[edit on 24/8/2007 by budski]

so budski, all that crying about staying on topic and how this is NOT a grass legalization thread, and now all you want to talk about is grass/other drugs??

i'm confused.

here budski
www.ojp.usdoj.gov...

www.ojp.usdoj.gov...

Sale/manufacture-------Possession
1982 137,900 ---------------538,100
1983 146,200---------------- 515,200
1984 155,800---------------- 552,600
1985 192,300----------------- 619,100
1986 206,800------------------ 617,300
1987 241,800------------------- 695,600
1988 316,500------------------ 838,700
1989 441,200----------------- 920,500
1990 344,300------------------ 745,200
1991 337,300------------------- 672,700
1992 338,000------------------- 728,400
1993 334,500------------------- 791,800
1994 360,800------------------ 990,600
1995 367,500------------------- 1,108,600
1996 375,000------------------- 1,131,200
1997 324,600------------------- 1,259,000
1998 330,500------------------- 1,228,600
1999 298,800-------------------- 1,233,400
2000 300,100-------------------- 1,279,500
2001 307,900-------------------- 1,279,000
2002 303,100-------------------- 1,235,700
2003 330,600--------------------- 1,347,600
2004 319,500----------------------- 1,426,200
2005 337,900---------------------- 1,508,500
-----------------

lotsa people getting popped for simple posession budski.....

www.ojp.usdoj.gov...

by type^^^^^

kinda just a general deal




www.ojp.usdoj.gov...