Satan is not Lucifer.

Originally posted by jakyll
You seem like a very mellow believer of...whatever it is you believe in,lol.so can i ask you what you think of buddhists?

Well as far as Buddhists go - people, too - just like me and you.

Buddhism, however, is much more like what Christ meant than anything else, especially Christianity.

God is within us all - that is one thing that just about every religion DENIES except Buddhism. Some would say that there is no God in Buddhism but that's not so - God just remains undefined. It is much like the purest ideas in Kabbala where the idea of fullness and void meet - except in Buddhism, the fullness part is left out. But yet the implied ideology is that when one becomes as the void (the nothing) then completeness (fullness) follows. And the bible says this, too - it is just that rarely anyone can divorce themselves BOTH from their own opinions as well as their mortal fear and/or religious driven need for delusional piety to see that Christ is the example in that very thing.

I find unlimited wisdom in Buddhist proverbs:

When wishes are few, the heart is happy. When desire ends, there is peace.
If you do not care for one another, who will care for you?
Everything in moderation, including moderation!

Double post removed.



[edit on 3-9-2007 by pepsi78]

Helel in Canaanite myth is a deity and possibly an epithet of Ashtar and not the son of Shaher. He or She doesnt try to usurp the throne of the Cheif deity which would be El, but sits in Baal's throne.

Got any links? I just gave you 2 from a jewish side of view.

What is this Angel with wings thing? The Seraphim and Cherubim have wings and thats it. Malakhim dont have wings. Ofanim dont have wings. The Morning Stars dont have wings. The Sons of G-d dont have wings. The Sarim dont have wings.

Satan was a cherubium
Ezekiel 28:12

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.”

Yes! That's right!

The broken Vav!

Phineas' story etc.

Well, Ha Satan is a prosecutor who puts mankind on a trail. So does Moshiach ben Joseph.
Moshiach ben Joseph will do things to mankind more like Ha Satan has done with Job. That's the reason why many Jews won't belive in him being the Messiah. That's the reason why there are "two" moshiachs (who are one and the same), ben Jospeh and ben David. Ben jospeh is the more unpopular and will not be noticed by many.

But I think we are going off-topic

One last ntice.

Moshiach equals then number 365, and so does Snake. Funny, isn't it?

Originally posted by pepsi78

Helel in Canaanite myth is a deity and possibly an epithet of Ashtar and not the son of Shaher. He or She doesnt try to usurp the throne of the Cheif deity which would be El, but sits in Baal's throne.

Got any links? I just gave you 2 from a jewish side of view.

What is this Angel with wings thing? The Seraphim and Cherubim have wings and thats it. Malakhim dont have wings. Ofanim dont have wings. The Morning Stars dont have wings. The Sons of G-d dont have wings. The Sarim dont have wings.

Satan was a cherubium
Ezekiel 28:12

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.”

About your links.

They do not represent the Jewish side of View.

The first from White Rose Garden. White Rose Garden is quasi New Age and Neo Pagan site, a compendium of myth and magick as it says on its site.

It quotes from two Sources one is an article in a Jewish University annual www.huc.edu... by a Jewish author named Julian Morgenstern www.americanjewisharchives.org... written in 1939 which is before a number of Canaanite fragments were found or translated. en.wikipedia.org...

The second source is a book called Hebrew Myths, www.amazon.com... it has a gentile author and a Jewish Anthropologist for an author. en.wikipedia.org...

Neither of these authors are the be all end all of Jewish thought.

Here's some other ideas.

Amusing article from the Israeli newspaper Haaretz:
www.haaretz.com...

From the Jewish Encyclopedia:
www.jewishencyclopedia.com...

If you can get ahold of this check it out. www.springerlink.com...

Good FAQ on Canaanite myth,
www.baal.com...

Helel in Ugatitic/Canaanite myth is Athtar or Ashtar. In the myth when Baal is killed by Mot, the lord of death, Athtar tries to take Baal's throne. Baal doesnt stay dead though. Baals' sister Anath goes to the Underworld and brings Baal back. He removes Athtar from Mt Zephon. Mt Zephon is like Olympus in Canaanite myth. In most myths Athtar, Ashtar or Venus are female.

That other site. www.amightywind.com...

Claims to be a nondenominational church. These are a group of bizarre Christians. Lead by the so called Prophet Elisabeth Elijah. The group sounds very cult like especially with references to PLANET X.

That site is not Jewish. That place is

Do some research on Ezekiel 28 youll find that its referencing a human, the King of Tyre in prophecy. Its comparing him to Cherubim that are close to G-d. Its highly unlikely that Satan from Job would be a Cherubim. The Cherubim are guardians. In Job the Adatel is filled with the Morning Stars, Kowkab Boquer not Helel, and the Sons of G-d or Beni Elohim. Most likely he is one of those types and I'm leaning towards Ha Satan being a Son of G-d.

[edit on 4/9/07 by MikeboydUS]

reply to post by queenannie38

Originally posted by whirlwind
You have stated that before. I assume you mean bring me into agreement with your truth and the disagreement would disappear.

QA38 - Not at all! I don't consider the discussion between you and I to be a disagreement. I really don't 'subscribe' to that word anymore because I realize that it is only a matter of each of us being a different mile-marker, so to speak, on the same road. The road to G.O.D.

I am just trying to show you things from a different perspective than the one that you are STUCK in...and yes you ARE stuck. You do not see that but it is apparent from the way that you just insist and insist on what you already BELIEVE to be true.

There is a truth to God's Word. There may be different levels of understanding to that truth but it is truth nevertheless. What you say I am STUCK in I believe is truth. When I hear another idea put forth I consider it. Does it align with His Word? If it does I study and reconsider. I am open to that.

The problem I am having here is that you say, "That's a tradition of man, not true, it didn't mean that, mistranslation, etc." but you don't give a corrected version. I'm asking but you aren't telling me what those scriptures mean, if not what I believe. I understand when you say that it is difficult to discuss what you know and have learned in a conversation with others. I find that to be a problem too even with as little as I know about His Word. However, it isn't enough to dismiss what I believe the meaning to be without a replacement in definition.

All that matters is that we LOVE GOD and LOVE eachother.
ALL.

Yes, that is true but I would add to that the necessity of doing what we can to bring others to that same point.

I'm sorry, but you can't know that I feel I have the truth. I don't. The truth is the same for all of us - we all have truth.

I diagree. We all have the ability to find the truth but not all of us have that truth yet. Perhaps we aren't supposed to but instead stay on a path to learn that truth all our lives. I don't know....

I mean that on the spiritual level....However there is something else called 'facts.' Such as what is written down as particular words - and I don't even mean as far as the nuances of definitions go.....There are many things that you are stuck on, in this thread, that are not even supported, by the bible, as far as plain old ABC's are concerned.

Then you must be more explicit in pointing them out. What are they? Where did I not use the bible to support what I have said? What are the ABC's of your understanding of the topics we have discussed?

WW - I don't judge but I do discern. Of course He loves everyone and wants everyone to love Him. Will they? There are conditions.

QA38 - To God's love? No. God's love is perfect.

Of course His love is perfect but there are conditions and He tells us what they are. He doesn't leave our salvation to chance.

Deu.7:9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, He is God, the faithful GOD, Which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep His commandments to a thousand generations;

10.And repayeth them that hate Him to their face, to destroy them: He will not be slack to him that hateth Him, He will repay him to his face.

11.Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statues, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

There are "If's" attached to His promises. If we follow His commandments, If we repent, If we believe in His Son......

.............Whirlwind

reply to post by queenannie38

Originally posted by whirlwind
He will give everyone a chance but not all will accept Him.

QA38 - See, right there, in THAT sentence is the perfect example of what I am trying to show you. The bible SAYS, in plain old black and white, accurately and consistently translated, the following:

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
~ Isaiah 45:23

And then Paul cited it twice more. GOD SAID that every knee shall bow. ALL. EVERY. Men would like us to think that God is going to leave some of us out or let it be that part of his creation will be trashed. That's BS! He loves us ALL.

NO MATTER what WE DO HE loves us all without condition. Now it is time for us to do the same with one another. Even if we don't think there is a GOD, we are still His creation. Atheists are from the same place as zealots, prophets, and priests. God is faithful.

When the true Christ arrives every knee shall bow - every knee. The question is, will they stay that way? No, the same Bible that tells us every knee will bow also tells us that those that again side with Satan is "the number of whom is as the sand of the sea." (Rev.20:8)

So...He loves us all, He gives us every chance to love Him in return but will we? As well as telling us He is a loving God He also tells us He is a jealous God, a God of vengeance. Atheists and believers are all from the same place, we are all His creation but He gave each of us a choice to make. He is faithful but the question really is, are we?

No one will be "left out" if they wish to be part of His eternity but they must believe on His Son and must repent of their sins. He doesn't ask much. As far as His creation being trashed, I don't know. He has destroyed it before but I believe the destruction spoken of in the end of days is just that evil things will be destroyed, not His earth.

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
~ 1 Timothy 2:4-6

ALL men - The sun shines on us all, my dear.
God loves us all - just the way we are - after all who knows us better than God! Not even ourselves! How could a perfect God make an imperfect creation and then count part of it as a loss? The bible, properly understood, makes it plain that it is ALL up to Him and His hands are the mightiest of all that IS.

Yes, the sun shines on the good and the bad. He does love us but not what some do. He is perfect but He gave His creation free will. It is our choice.

.......Whirlwind

reply to post by whirlwind


If every knee does not stay bent,that does not necessarely mean that Satan is to blame.It just mean people have looked into the face of Jesus and not found the answers they have been looking for.

I,personally,do not fear god.not because i'm an atheist,but because if you stand face to face with such a powerful being,fear is a wasted emotion.you know what can happen to you,and you would never be able to stop it.so why be scared of something you can not control?

Tyrants rule through fear,Gods should not do the same,they should be above such petty human behaviour!!

reply to post by whirlwind


Also,free choice.A subject i've had many debates and arguments about over the years.lol.

Free will gives us the choice of being good or evil.Free will gives us the choice of believing in god or not.

Should we then be condemned for not believing? Evil actions must have consequences,but non-belief should carry no penalty because it is god who has given us that choice.If non-believers do get punished then god has played a very cruel trick on mankind!
People can lead "righteous" lives without believing in a higher power.and these people should not be "made to tremble in the face of god" God should welcome them with open arms because they have done good in a time of chaos!

reply to post by pepsi78


The word cherub (cherubim is the Hebrew masculine plural) is a word borrowed from the Assyrian kirubu, from karâbu, "to be near", hence it means near ones, familiars, personal servants, bodyguards, courtiers. It was commonly used of those heavenly spirits, who closely surrounded the Majesty of God and paid Him intimate service.

Angelic Orders.

Orders of the First Choir are:
Supernals - Celestials - Illuminations

Orders of the Second Choir are:
Seraphim - Cherubim - Thrones

Orders of the Third Choir are:
Dominations - Virtues - Powers

Orders of the Fourth Choir are:
Principalities - Archangels - Angels


Lucifer was a "great" Archangel, Prince, and the anointed Cherub (7th Dimension - Cherubim).Lucifer was the Anointed Cherub. Anointed means to be set apart for Gods Divine purpose. It also means "bestowal of Gods divine favor", and "appointment to a special place or function."


I think he gets mistaken for being from a higher order of angel because of his "popularity."

reply to post by queenannie38


Aye,there is no defined god-head in buddhism,but it does have that pure form of spirituality.thats how i think the christian faith should be.but because man has warped it over so many generations its hard to see the wood because of the trees.
I've always thought that if people want to understand Jesus then they should understand buddhism first because it'll set them on the right path.rather than the path of corruption and manipulation that started with the catholic church.

Reading about Confucious and Sun Tzu would help too.

Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by pepsi78

 

The word cherub (cherubim is the Hebrew masculine plural) is a word borrowed from the Assyrian kirubu, from karâbu, "to be near", hence it means near ones, familiars, personal servants, bodyguards, courtiers. It was commonly used of those heavenly spirits, who closely surrounded the Majesty of God and paid Him intimate service.

Angelic Orders.

Orders of the First Choir are:
Supernals - Celestials - Illuminations

Orders of the Second Choir are:
Seraphim - Cherubim - Thrones

Orders of the Third Choir are:
Dominations - Virtues - Powers

Orders of the Fourth Choir are:
Principalities - Archangels - Angels


Lucifer was a "great" Archangel, Prince, and the anointed Cherub (7th Dimension - Cherubim).Lucifer was the Anointed Cherub. Anointed means to be set apart for Gods Divine purpose. It also means "bestowal of Gods divine favor", and "appointment to a special place or function."


I think he gets mistaken for being from a higher order of angel because of his "popularity."

Your right about the connection Karubu. The Cherubuim even look like them. Winged Quadrupeds with bodies like bulls.

I dont use that list though. That appears to be Primarily the Catholic orders of Angels. Except I think they only recognize three of those Choirs.

These are following examples of the Celestial Hierarchy from highest to lowest.

From Maimonides:

1. Hayyot
2. Ofanim
3. Arelim
4. Hasmallim
5. Seraphim
6. Malakim
7. Elohim
8. Bene Elohim
9. Cherubim
10. Ishim

From the Cabala:

1. Arelim
2. Ishim
3. Bene Elohim
4. Malakim
5. Hashmallim
6. Tarshishim
7. Shinnanim
8. Cherubim
9. Ofanim
10. Seraphim

Theres also a list of twelve types in Sode Raza.

In the Maseket Aẓilut from lowest to highest.

1. Seraphim
2. Ofanim
3. Cherubim
4. Shinnanim
5. Tarshishim
6. Ishim
7. Hashmallim
8. Malakim
9. Bene Elohim
10. Arelim

In my view all of these lists are flawed. I say that because they dont agree with each other and no information is given exactly on what the hierarchy is in the Bible and if there is even a Hierarchy. There are different types listed in the Bible but not what rank and if they have rank by Type.

In the Tanakh not in any specific order.

1. Malakim, The Angels. These are the only ones that can be rightfully called Angels.
2. Bnai Elohim, in Genesis some copulate with humans, they fill half of the Adatel in Job.
3. Kadoshim,The Holy Ones , these are very Choir like.
4. Elohim, these seem to be quite powerful and are called the Sons of Elyon or Most High. They Judge the Earth. I think there is a connection between them and the Bnai Elohim.
5. Irinim, Watchers, these may be the same as the Bnai Elohim.
6. Ofanim, the Wheels of Ezekiel. Angels use them as Chariots/Vehicles.
7. Hayyoth, Four beings before the Merkabah, G-d's Throne.
8. Hasmallim, connected to the Hayyoth.
9. Seraphim, Fiery and Burning, possibly Serpentine from the connection to the Word Saraph.
10. Cherubim, Guardians of the Throne, Eden, and are even on the Ark of the Covenant.
11. Ishim, humanlike beings in Daniel.
12. Sarim, the Princes of the Nations.
13. Kowkab Boquer, The Morning Stars also fill the Adatel.






[edit on 4/9/07 by MikeboydUS]

Here's some links to Jewish Views on Ha Satan. Quite different than Christian views.

shamash.org...

www.geocities.com...

www.faqs.org...

www.jewishencyclopedia.com...

reply to post by jakyll

If every knee does not stay bent,that does not necessarely mean that Satan is to blame.It just mean people have looked into the face of Jesus and not found the answers they have been looking for.

I don't think Satan would be to blame at all, anymore then he should be blamed for what we do in this age. We pay for our own sins as it is our choice to commit them or not. May I ask, if you don't find what you are looking for when you face Jesus where else do you believe you will find it, where else do you think you will go?

I,personally,do not fear god.not because i'm an atheist,but because if you stand face to face with such a powerful being,fear is a wasted emotion.you know what can happen to you,and you would never be able to stop it.so why be scared of something you can not control?

When you see Him you will no longer be an atheist, you will know He is real. I don't agree that fear is a wasted emotion. It can keep you from harm, even from death. Certainly you have control over where your soul goes, that is what this life is about, what decisions you make. You control your destiny.

Tyrants rule through fear,Gods should not do the same,they should be above such petty human behaviour!!

The word "fear" could be interpreted as fear or revere in reference to God. Those that revere Him have no need to fear, others do and should. I don't believe you mean it the way it sounds but telling God how He should rule is very cavalier attitude, don't you think?


.............Whirlwind

reply to post by jakyll

Also,free choice.A subject i've had many debates and arguments about over the years.lol. ...Free will gives us the choice of being good or evil.Free will gives us the choice of believing in god or not.

Should we then be condemned for not believing? Evil actions must have consequences,but non-belief should carry no penalty because it is god who has given us that choice.If non-believers do get punished then god has played a very cruel trick on mankind!

Of course you should be condemned for not believing. That is the choice He gives you. Believe and all of His promises are yours. Don't and other promises are also yours. Your choice - free will. It's no trick, nor is it cruel. It isn't as if that would be some type of surprise or covert action. We are plainly told, with love, what is necessary. There are no hidden, secret handshakes we have to discover. His love is there for all of us, to whomever will.

People can lead "righteous" lives without believing in a higher power.and these people should not be "made to tremble in the face of god" God should welcome them with open arms because they have done good in a time of chaos!

Neither one of us make the rules. His rules are very simply stated and are very easy to follow. One chooses if he will "tremble in the face of God" or feel His arms around them.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38.This is the first and great commandment.

39.And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Understand that "loving your neighbor as yourself" means if you are able to. Some cannot be loved. Christ recognizes that as Christians, as children of God, we will have enemies and we are to fight them.

44.'The Lord said unto My Lord, sit Thou on My right hand, till I make Thine enemies Thy footstool?''

Christ sums it up with the following verse:

Mark16:16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

............Whirlwind

Do some research on Ezekiel 28 youll find that its referencing a human, the King of Tyre in prophecy. Its comparing him to Cherubim that are close to G-d. Its highly unlikely that Satan from Job would be a Cherubim. The Cherubim are guardians. In Job the Adatel is filled with the Morning Stars, Kowkab Boquer not Helel, and the Sons of G-d or Beni Elohim. Most likely he is one of those types and I'm leaning towards Ha Satan being a Son of G-d.

None sence, it's refering directly to him, satan was very close to god, there is no indication that it's a comparation, it states that he was in the garden of eden, it also describes him, it also uses the word cherubium that is an alngelical being, so his not refering to a human, this is just your interpretation that does not follow with the text sice the text is clear.
If you want to beiive that satan is not lucifer be my guest, but no one is going to take you serios with out any resources, evidence.
I can also say, no the sky is yellow, it's not blue, for no particular reason.

Originally posted by pepsi78

Do some research on Ezekiel 28 youll find that its referencing a human, the King of Tyre in prophecy. Its comparing him to Cherubim that are close to G-d. Its highly unlikely that Satan from Job would be a Cherubim. The Cherubim are guardians. In Job the Adatel is filled with the Morning Stars, Kowkab Boquer not Helel, and the Sons of G-d or Beni Elohim. Most likely he is one of those types and I'm leaning towards Ha Satan being a Son of G-d.

None sence, it's refering directly to him, satan was very close to god, there is no indication that it's a comparation, it states that he was in the garden of eden, it also describes him, it also uses the word cherubium that is an alngelical being, so his not refering to a human, this is just your interpretation that does not follow with the text sice the text is clear.
If you want to beiive that satan is not lucifer be my guest, but no one is going to take you serios with out any resources, evidence.
I can also say, no the sky is yellow, it's not blue, for no particular reason.

Nonsense?

Ezekiel 28 A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre

Do you know what Tyre is?

"By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries. "

What angel amasses wealth?

"By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud. "

Angels grow proud because of gold? What?

" I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor. "

So G-d is going to use humans to punish an angel?

"They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas. "

G-d has humans kill an angel?

"Will you then say, "I am a god,"
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a man, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you. "

Read those words very carefully. A man. The King of Tyre is Human.

"You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "

He's not even circumcised.

"The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. "

This is a Lament for a human king using poetic symbolism. Its is very apparent when you read the whole chapter in context.

"You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl. [c]
Your settings and mountings [d] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared"

Very poetic.

"You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones. "

You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones. "

Notice the word Trade.

"Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching. "

Again notice the word Trade.

All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.' "

And thus He dies.

This is very poetic and very symbolic. The whole prophecy has to be read in context. You cant ignore the parts calling the King of Tyre or the King of Babylon HUMANS. Its even more clear in the Hebrew.

These are two different Kings. One over Tyre aka Phoenicia and the other over Babylon.

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

Critical and Objective reading are Paramount when reading the Bible. Dont let Ethos guide you, use your Logos.



[edit on 4/9/07 by MikeboydUS]

reply to post by whirlwind


Well,when i said people may look into the eyes of Jesus and not find the answers they are looking for,i wasn't really talking about me.I am not looking for anything,so far in my life i have never needed spiritual guidence.I also have no fear of death,i do not worry about what awaits us.Death is inevitable,we can not escape it,so why fear it?
Thats kinda what i said earlier about fear.Yes,it is a useful tool,but i was talking about fear when standing face to face with god.,thats when it would be a wasted and useless emotion.
To revere someone is to love unquestioningly and uncritically or to excess and to venerate as an idol.There may be a form of blindness in this,but not fear.
And i've been told before i have a cavalier attitude when it comes to a meeting with god.its just who i am! I would say to god or Jesus--you are the ones with the answers.you have the truth.the real truth,not the kind that has been corrupted and twisted by man.so,as you created me as a creature of curiosity,i'm gonna ask you some questions.if you give me no answers,then too hell with ya.what use are you if you won't re-reveal the Truth as it once was?--

Faith may give you control over where you go in the next world,but in this one i believe in destiny.we are not in control.no god has ever got the better of fate!!
And,free will.if he wants makind to believe and worship unconditionally,why even give us the choice? isn't that giving more power to satan? isn't that god putting us in a cruel position when he doesn't even have too?
What would you say to a man who has lost his faith because his wife and 4yr old daughter were raped and murdered? (was in a magazine recently.)would you look this man in the eye and say that it was god's will,that his wife and daughter had be chosen to be god's lil sunbeams? would you say that he was now destined to be condemned for his loss of faith?

God must have many laws on which to judge people by,it can't all be black and white.just because you believe it may not be an automatic ticket to heaven.You may find yourself in a different place coz,yeah you have the faith,but you've done sod all with your life,you've wasted a gift from god!




[edit on 5-9-2007 by jakyll]

reply to post by MikeboydUS


I liked your breakdown of Ezekiel 28 A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre.very informative.

I know there are many angel lists,it can get very confusing.i decided to put up the catholic list of orders because it was that faith that really started the "demonizing" of satan/lucifer.

[edit on 5-9-2007 by jakyll]

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
These are two different Kings. One over Tyre aka Phoenicia and the other over Babylon.

Indeed.

Ezekiel 29:
~ 18 Son of man, Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon caused his army to serve a great service against Tyrus: every head was made bald, and every shoulder was peeled: yet had he no wages, nor his army, for Tyrus, for the service that he had served against it:
~ 19 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall take her multitude, and take her spoil, and take her prey; and it shall be the wages for his army.
~ 20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor wherewith he served against it, because they wrought for me, saith the Lord GOD.
~ 21 In that day will I cause the horn of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD.

????