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Satan is not Lucifer.

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posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78


You do realize Lucifer is a Roman deity. I'll repeat a Roman deity. We might as well start translating everything as the name of Roman gods if we go along with that rediculous idea. Its Helel and only Helel. Helel is not a Roman god

What don't you get? it's not about other god names, it's about translation.
If your name was sparky in hebrew, then that is your name, translated in english it means just that , sparky.
It was translated in latin simply because it needed a latin name and everything that was translated was done properly.

The original text in the bible referes to hellel and in stead of the translation in english or latin you get the name hellel that apears in the original version of the bible that is untranslated, you can check it if you wish.


In latin:
quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes.


As it was in hebrew:

"Isaiah 14:12 (KJV with Hebrew) 'How art thou fallen from heaven, O Helel, son of Shahar! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations.






. Helel is not even a god. Helel is a man who wants to be a god, thus by calling him Lucifer youve fulfilled his desire by making him into a Roman god.

A man
?

Seems you got to review your statement.
From the jews:

www.whiterosesgarden.com/Nature_of_Evil/fallen_angels/FAngels_G-H/helel.htm




Helel - In Canaanitish mythology, a fallen angel, son of Sahar or Sharer, a winged deity. Helel sought to usurp the throne of the chief god and, as punishment, was cast down into the abyss. Cf. the Lucifer legend. The 1st star to fall from Heaven (Enoch I, 86:1) was Satan-Helel. This is an interpretation offered by Morgenstern, "The Mythological Background of Psalm 82" (Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion Annual XIV, pp. 29-126). However, in his Fallen Angels, Bamberger argues: "The more natural explanation is that the 1st star [that fell] was Azazel." Helel was head or leader of the nephilim (q.v.). Generally speaking, angels can have no offspring, since they are pure spirits; but when angels sin, when they "put on the corruptibility of the flesh" and cohabit with mortal women, they are capable of producing progeny. A case in point is the incident in Genesis 6. In the cabala and rabbinic lore there are numerous instances of such heteroclitish productivity. [Rf. Graves and Patai, Hebrew Myths.] (a)


It's him alright, seems familiar ?







I'll have to agree to disgree over the Helel is Satan assertion which I have already shown why I do not agree, but Please stop calling a figure from the a Bible by the name of a Roman divinity.

I proved you wrong.
Hellel in latin is translated lucifer.
It's as simple as that, because that is what it means.


[edit on 2-9-2007 by pepsi78]

[edit on 2-9-2007 by pepsi78]


I have not seen the name Helel in the Book of Enoch.
Saying the statement is from "the Jews" is way out of context. Do you have any idea on how many Rabbinical Interpretations there are?

Lucifer the Roman deity did nothing like the Canaanite deity. There is no comparison. Jerome translated it and By the way He translated Jesus as Phophoros as Lucifer too. Phophoros would accurately translate to Lucifer since they are the name of the same Greco Roman deity.

[edit on 2/9/07 by MikeboydUS]




posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 05:43 PM
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reply to post by pepsi78
 


from Is Satan Lucifer? by Bert Thompson.

""" Here are the facts. The word, Lucifer is used in the King James Version only once, in Isaiah 14:12:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!.

The Hebrew word translated Lucifer is helel (or heylel), from the root, hâlâl, meaning, to shine, or to bear light. However, the KJV translators did not translate helel as Lucifer because of something inherent in the Hebrew term itself. Instead, they borrowed the name from Jerome's translation of the Bible (A.D. 383-405) known as the Latin Vulgate.
Jerome, likely believing that the term was describing the planet Venus, employed the Latin term "Lucifer." (.light- bearing,) to designate the morning star, (Venus).
Only later did the suggestion originate that Isaiah 14:12ff.was speaking of the devil. Eventually, the name Lucifer came to be synonymous with Satan. But is Satan, Lucifer?
No, he is not. The context into which verse 12 fits begins in verse 4 where God told Isaiah to, take up this parable against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!.
In his commentary on Isaiah, Albert Barnes explained that God's wrath was kindled against the king because the ruler intended not to acknowledge any superior either in heaven or earth, but designed that himself and his laws should be regarded as supreme.(1950, 1:272).
The chest-pounding boast of the impudent potentate was:

"I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit upon the mount of congregation, in the uttermost parts of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High(vss. 13-14).

As a result of his egotistical self-deification, the pagan monarch eventually would experience both the collapse of his kingdom and the loss of his life -an ignominious end that is described in vivid and powerful terms. Sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming, the prophet pro- claimed to the once-powerful king.And when the ruler finally descends into his eternal grave, captives of that hidden realm will taunt him by saying, "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms?. (vs. 16).He is denominated as a man, (vs. 16) who would die in disrepute and whose body would be buried, not in a king's sarcophagus, but in pits reserved for the downtrodden masses (vss. 19-20).
Worms would eat his body, and hedgehogs would trample his grave (vss. 11,23).It was in this context that Isaiah referred to the king of Babylon as, the morning star. (son of the morning.; .son of the dawn.) to depict the once- shining-but-now-dimmed, once-lofty-but-now-diminished, status of the (soon to be former) ruler.
In his Bible Commentary, E.M. Zerr observed that such phrases were ..used figuratively in this verse to symbolize the dignity and splendor of the Babylonian monarch.
His complete overthrow was likened to the falling of the morning star.
This kind of phraseology should not be sur- prising since .n the O.T., the demise of corrupt national powers is frequently depicted under the imagery of falling heavenly luminaries (cf. Isa. 13:10; Ezekiel 32:7), hence, quite appropriately in this context the Babylonian monarch is described as a fallen star.

Nowhere within the context of Isaiah 14, however, is Satan depicted as Lucifer. In fact, quite the opposite is true. In his commentary on Isaiah, Burton Coffman wrote: "We are glad that our version (ASV) leaves the word Lucifer out of this rendition, because, Satan does not enter into this passage as a subject at all. (1990, p. 141).
The Babylonian ruler was to die and be buried. fates neither of which Satan is destined to endure. The king was called a man, whose body was to be eaten by worms, but Satan, as a spirit, has no physical body.
The monarch lived in and abided over a golden city, (vs. 4), but Satan is the monarch of a kingdom of spiritual darkness (cf. Ephesians 6:12). And so on.
The context presented in Isaiah 4:4-16 not only does not portray Satan as Lucifer, but actually militates against it. Keil and Delitzsch firmly proclaimed that Lucifer,. as a synonym, is a perfectly appropriate one for the king of Ba- bel, on account of the early date of the Babylonian culture, which reached back as far as the grey twilight of primeval times, and also because of its predominate astrological character. (1982, p. 312).

They then correctly concluded that Lucifer, as a name given to the devil, was derived from this passage, without any warrant whatever, as relating to the apostasy and punishment of the angelic leaders.""



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 05:57 PM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 




Originally posted by whirlwind
"Everything associated with it is pure confusion. The Tower of Babel, Baal, Bel - Evil confusion, much, if not all of it Satanic.".......Where do you find THAT insinuation? (the evil/satanic part)


From Babylon have come false religions. If it isn't God that is worshipped who would it be?

Rev.17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

Bullinger states that the verse should read: "And upon her forehead (she had) a name written, a secret symbol (musterion), Babylon The Great, the mother of the harlots and of the abominations of the earth.
The name of the woman is therefore a secret sign or smbol of "that great city" which she personifies."



What does PURE mean? 'Pure confusion' is an OXYMORON.


From Noah Webster's:
4. Unmixed; separate from any other subject or from every thing foreign; as pure mathematics.
12. Mere; absolute; that and that only; unconnected with any thing else; as a pure villain.

Either of those two give the meaning in which I used the word "pure confusion". I don't find it to be an oxymoron.

Thank you for the various dictionary definitions. Why did you feel it was necessary to post them? They all seemed to say the same thing.

............Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 06:16 PM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 



Originally posted by whirlwind
"Those that don't teach rapture also don't teach what to expect in the end of days". .........What should we expect? Jeremiah 29:11.


Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

That is a beautiful verse and our expected end is peace. To achieve that however you must read the scriptures that follow that one.

12.Then shall ye call upon Me, and ye shall go and pray unto Me, and I will hearken unto you.
13.And ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me with all your heart.


We must seek Him only, no other gods, to find that peace.

Those that do not teach what to expect in the end of days don't warn that Satan comes first pretending to be Christ. If we aren't warned and follow him, even unknowingly, then we are no longer a child of God. He will never turn His back on us but we can leave Him. If He isn't the one we call upon, pray to, seek and find and instead follow the false one masquerading as Him, then we will not find peace as our "expected end".

.......Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 06:24 PM
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reply to post by jakyll
 



The coming of Christ sounds like it'll be a time of great upheavel.I've debated with people many times that maybe the book of revelations is talking about the end of one of earth's cycle and the starting of another.


It will be the end of this 2nd earth age and the beginning of the 3rd, and as the Bible tells us, the last.


...........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 06:30 PM
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reply to post by jakyll
 




I'm guessing you haven't read the whole thread,or there are things mentioned you've just totally ignored?

Lucifer is actually a name for Jesus,he even calls himself that.

""""I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.""""" (Revelation 22:16)


There is good and evil, there is the Rock and the rock, there is Christ and the anti-christ, there is light and darkness, there is the Morning Star and the morning star.

Satan comes pretending to be Christ. Throughout the Bible you will see references to his impersonation, as in the morning star.

Jesus is not Lucifer.


...........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 06:36 PM
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Lucifer the Roman deity did nothing like the Canaanite deity. There is no comparison. Jerome translated it and By the way He translated Jesus as

Look at the KVG untranslated, his refering to a character by the name of hellel, hellel existed as an angel as a deity with that actual name, it was part of the cultures and mitology of that area, what more do you want?
It's simple , hellel is a winged deity, fallen, , hellel means morning star/shiny in hebrew, they took the name and translated it, if you can understand that then ok, if not then that is your problem, it's just a simple name translation.




Phophoros as Lucifer too. Phophoros would accurately translate to Lucifer since they are the name of the same Greco Roman deity

It has nothing to do with the greko roman deitys, it's just a name translation from hellel to lucifer, there is no associacion with what you are saying, you are saying that other gods were named the same, but it does not matter because the translation is correct, so what if other were caled that, it's important to know if the name fits right? and if the translation from hebrew to latin is correct, since there is an character that is a fallen angel , and since his name is hellel , and sice his name is in latin translated to lucifer because that is what it means translated then I don't see the problem with the whole thing and I think you are beating around the bush, the fact is that it does not matter if others were named like this, what we are here to see is if in fact satan can be called lucifer, and it does acording to the factors I just made above.

We can call him lucifer, the name fits.



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 06:59 PM
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Originally posted by whirlwind
From Babylon have come false religions. If it isn't God that is worshiped who would it be?


All religions are basically false because they are made by men. God is pure spirit, remember? And so only to worship in spirit and truth is true worship. And religion - ALL religions - are somehow associated with praxis, rituals, or some other sort of 'showing.' And so in the end, even though they serve a purpose and also are just as capable as leading one to God as they are as leading one away, ultimately it comes down to the innermost being of a person's soul.


Bullinger states that the verse should read: "And upon her forehead (she had) a name written, a secret symbol (musterion), Babylon The Great, the mother of the harlots and of the abominations of the earth.
The name of the woman is therefore a secret sign or symbol of "that great city" which she personifies."


Musterion = mystery. EXACTLY.


And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery (musterion) of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
~ Mark 4:11

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery (musterion), lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
~ Romans 11:25

Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery (musterion), which was kept secret since the world began,
~ Romans 16:25

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery (musterion), even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
~ 1 Corinthians 2:7

Behold, I shew you a mystery (musterion); We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
~ 1 Corinthians 15:51

Having made known unto us the mystery (musterion) of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
~ Ephesians 1:9

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery (musterion); (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery (musterion) of Christ)
~ Ephesians 3:3-4

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery (musterion), which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
~ Ephesians 3:9


Now, here is the BIGGIE:


For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery (musterion): but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
~ Ephesians 5:31-32


Now, if you read ALL those verses I listed, in their context, with an OPEN MIND instead of automatically referring to Bullinger's understandings...then you might see something amazing.

I have nothing at all against Bullinger; in fact, he is one of the few biblical scholars that I have found to be of value - obviously his heart was pure and he was led by the Holy Spirit. BUT if the Holy Spirit can lead Bullinger, then no doubt the same can lead you. BUT if you do NOT give it a chance, then you miss out. Listening to another who was led by the Spirit and just accepting what they say instead of allowing the Spirit to help you understand better with such help, then you are not allowing yourself to be taught by the Holy Spirit. You are choosing to be taught by a man. And since the first Pentecost, there is absolutely no reason ANYONE cannot have the same access to the TRUTH as it comes from G.O.D. and G.O.D. alone!

We have two choices: to trust in God or trust in men.
To trust in a man who trusted God is still to trust in a MAN.

We can learn from one another, to be sure. But our validation must come from one place only. And when that is the way it is, the unity will become apparent. The fact that 99% of all people who claim to follow God disagree more often than not indicates that there is still very little true trust in God in this world. Most people don't even realize that it is possible for two virtual strangers to come together and immediately experience a perfect concord of understanding concerning spiritual things. But it is not only possible but actual. THEN you know that you are being led true - because opinions of the closest of friends never reach complete concord; even identical twins have differing ideas about some things. But to meet a stranger with the same mind proves the mind of Christ.


Either of those two give the meaning in which I used the word "pure confusion". I don't find it to be an oxymoron.


Babel means 'confusion; mixture.'
Pure means 'unmixed.'

Do you see, now?
An unmixed mixture?



Thank you for the various dictionary definitions. Why did you feel it was necessary to post them? They all seemed to say the same thing.


No doubt. They DO say the same thing. And yet NONE of them mentioned anything even remotely akin to 'evil' or 'satanic.'

And you didn't tell me where it was that you got that idea, anyway. Would you mind sharing that?



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 07:07 PM
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again...

"""The word "Lucifer" comes from 2 Latin words:
Lux (=light) + ferous (=to bear or carry). Thus the name "Lucifer" means Light-bearer or Light-bringer.

As a result of this Latin Vulgate translation, which was almost the only version of the Bible in use throughout Europe for the next 1000 years, Satan popularly became known as Lucifer. It should be self-evident that when the first people who translated the Bible into English came along, one of their paradigms was that the name "Lucifer" applied to Satan. When they came to translate Isaiah 14:12 into English, they decided that rather than actually "translate" the word "Heylel," they would simply substitute it with the already well-known (originally) Latin name "Lucifer." And they could do this because on the surface this seems to be a reasonably accurate translation. But it isn't really! I mentioned earlier that the word "Lucifer" appears only once in the English versions of the Bible. But in the Latin Vulgate translation of Jerome it appears twice! That's right, twice! Where else is this word used and who does it refer to? Jerome certainly knew who it refers to. This knowledge also casts a dark cloud over his intentional use in Isaiah 14:12!
2 Peter 1:19: "...until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts." this is another mistranslation!!!

The two words "day star" are a translation of the one Greek word " phosphoros ." This comes from the two Greek words:
Phos (=light) + phero (=to bear or carry). Thus the Greek word " phosphoros " means Light-bearer or Light-bringer.
Anyone who knows both, Greek and Latin, can verify that the Greek word " Phosphoros " and the Latin word "Lucifer" are absolutely, one hundred percent identical in meaning. "Lucifer" is the perfect translation into Latin of the Greek word " Phosphoros ."
All of the English translators of the Bible know very well that the word " Phosphoros " in 2 Peter 1:19 can be perfectly accurately translated by the word "Lucifer." Instead they have chosen to deliberately obscure this fact. Why?

They knew very well that 2 Peter 1:19 refers without doubt to Jesus Christ. This verse calls Jesus Christ " Phosphoros " (in Greek) or "Lucifer" (in Latin). Yet the translators have hidden this fact behind the words "day star." The facts are that "Phosphoros " has absolutely nothing to do with either "day" or "star"! The translators simply borrowed a term that is elsewhere used for Christ--namely "morning star" in Revelation 2:28 (Greek = proinos + aster) and in Revelation 22:16 (Greek = orthrinos + aster).
To translate "phosphoros " as "day star" is plain dishonesty!!!

Jerome correctly translated the Greek " phosphoros " into the Latin word " lucifer ." Jerome obviously knew that this verse refers to Jesus Christ--yet he wrote " lucifer " with a small "l" and did not capitalize the word. He also knew that he had translated the word " phosphoros " perfectly into Latin.
Jerome knew that in the New Testament "Lucifer" is a title for Jesus Christ; yet he still chose to also translate the less-clearly defined Hebrew word "Heylel" in Isaiah 14:12 as "Lucifer," knowing that this word referred to Satan--and here Jerome started the word with a capital "L,".

" Halal " is used 165 times in the Old Testament and it is translated as follows in the KJV:

* 117 times = Praise
* 14 times = Glory
* 10 times = Boast
* 8 times = Mad
* 3 times = Shine(d)
* 3 times = Foolish
* 2 times = Fools
* 2 times = Commended
* 2 times = Rage
* 1 time = Celebrate
* 1 time = Give
* 1 time = Marriage
* 1 time = Renowned

This should make clear that the translators felt they should attach over a dozen different meanings to this word " Halal ." The meanings are both, good and bad; both, positive and negative.
Now here are some of the places where " Halal " is translated as:

* "Mad" = 1 Samuel 21:13; Psalms 102:8; Ecclesiastes 2:2; 7:7; Isaiah 44:25; Jeremiah 25:16; 50:38; 51:7;
* "Fools" = Job 12:17; Psalms 75:4;
* "Foolish" = Psalms 5:5; 73:3; 75:4;
* "Rage" = Jer. 46:9; Nahum 2:4;
* "Boast" = 1 Kings 20:11; Psalms 10:3; 34:2; 44:8; 49:6; 52:1; 97:7; Proverbs 20:14; 25:14; 27:1.

"Heylel" has nothing to do with the words "Star" or "Day" or "Morning" or "Bringing" or "Carrying." Notice also that he is "the son (Hebrew = the product) of the morning" (Isaiah 14:12). Christ is the Morning Star and it is He who created Satan. And Satan has deceived all of mankind into giving him the exalted title, which is what it really is, and which rightfully belongs to Jesus Christ, of "Light-Bringer." One clear fulfillment of Revelation 12:9--.
Paul explained this in 2 Corinthians 11:14, where he tells us: "...for Satan himself is transformed (Greek = disguised) into an angel of light." Do you grasp this? He has deceived the world into believing that Isaiah 14:12 tells us that he used to hold Christ's job (as per 2 Peter 1:19 )--that he used to be an angel who was a "Light-bringer."
Once you get rid of the old paradigm that "Lucifer is a name that used to refer to Satan" and grasp that the Bible identifies Christ as "Lucifer" (or "Phosphoros " in Greek), the Light-bringer, then you'll be surprised how many scriptures literally flood into your mind in support of this--. e.g.

* John 8:12 = "I am the light of the world..."
* John 3:19 = "...that light is come into the world..."
* John 1:4 - 8 = "...in Him was...the light of men..."
* John 12:36 = "...believe in the light..." etc., etc..

We need to understand that God has absolutely no reason to reveal Satan's previous name to us.(Apart from Ezekiel 28:12-15) nowhere in the bible is anything good said about Satan.Notice that in Ezekiel 28,where God does speak about Satan's existence before the creation of man,God reveals that Satan had been an anointed cherub--but God does not use any name that previously applied to Satan.But Ezekiel 28 carefully avoids hinting at any previous name. And so why should Isaiah 14:12 be an exception.Whatever name Satan may have had previously is totally blotted out before God,t is as though Satan never ever had that name. That's what sin does,it totally blots out any memory of any good that went before.Ezekiel 3:20 and 18:24 and 33:13."all his righteousness shall not be remembered."After Satan sinned,God did not need to reveal his name."""""

[edit on 2-9-2007 by jakyll]



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 07:17 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78



Lucifer the Roman deity did nothing like the Canaanite deity. There is no comparison. Jerome translated it and By the way He translated Jesus as

Look at the KVG untranslated, his refering to a character by the name of hellel, hellel existed as an angel as a deity with that actual name, it was part of the cultures and mitology of that area, what more do you want?
It's simple , hellel is a winged deity, fallen, , hellel means morning star/shiny in hebrew, they took the name and translated it, if you can understand that then ok, if not then that is your problem, it's just a simple name translation.




Phophoros as Lucifer too. Phophoros would accurately translate to Lucifer since they are the name of the same Greco Roman deity

It has nothing to do with the greko roman deitys, it's just a name translation from hellel to lucifer, there is no associacion with what you are saying, you are saying that other gods were named the same, but it does not matter because the translation is correct, so what if other were caled that, it's important to know if the name fits right? and if the translation from hebrew to latin is correct, since there is an character that is a fallen angel , and since his name is hellel , and sice his name is in latin translated to lucifer because that is what it means translated then I don't see the problem with the whole thing and I think you are beating around the bush, the fact is that it does not matter if others were named like this, what we are here to see is if in fact satan can be called lucifer, and it does acording to the factors I just made above.

We can call him lucifer, the name fits.





Show me where helel is an angel. Isaiah specifically says he is a man and that he will die.

Winged what? Where did you get the wings idea? Helel can be a name used for the planet Venus. In ancient times it may of been Mercury. I have seen some research where Mercury is a better fit. I have also seen where it may have nothing to do with Hebrew Astronomy. See the following:

"Helel, Son of the Morning.

It is usually claimed that by the word "Helel" , "son of the morning," in Isa. xiv. 12, the morning star, or, more correctly, one of the two morning stars, is meant; and the analogy with ("to glitter") seems to favor the view. Closely considered, however, there is little foundation for the supposition, since Isaiah gives no intimation whatever that Helel is a star (Gunkel, "Schöpfung und Chaos," pp. 132 et seq.).

The supposition that "Gad" () in Isa. lxv. 11 means "Jupiter," the god of Fortune, and that "Meni" (), in the same verse, means "Venus" (if these readings be correct), rests upon mere hypothesis.

If it were not that the late-Hebrew name "Ẓedeḳ" (="justice") for "Jupiter" betrays, not an Assyro-Babylonian origin, but rather a late Jewish one—for among the Assyro-Babylonians Saturn is the star of justice—it might be accepted as an earlyJewish name for that planet; but to endeavor to connect this with the Old Testament proper names "Meichizedek" and "Adonizedek" is, to say the least, hazardous.

The Old Testament contains no more than the preceding concerning Hebrew Astronomy. Of Hebrew astrology before the Babylonian exile, it contains not a word; for the passage Isa. xlvii. 13, wherein astrologers are evidently meant by "the astrologers, the star-gazers, the monthly prognosticators," is regarded by most scholars as post-exilic. This may perhaps indicate that the ancient Hebrews possessed no astrology; at all events, what is known of the astrology of the later Hebrews shows Assyro-Babylonian influence, as is illustrated by the fact that Mercury, for instance, is called "the star," just as the Assyro-Babylonians designate him simply as "the planet."

Bibliography: Gunkel's recent Commentary on Gen. (Nowack Series) may be consulted for incidental references to Biblical Astronomy;
for the Babylonian views, see Jensen, Kosmologie der Babylonier, Strasburg, 1890, passim;
Jastrow, Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, xx.-xxii.;
Epping-Strassmaier, Astronomisches aus Babylon, Freiburg, 1889.J. Jr."


Lucifer and Phophoros are the same deity in Greco Roman myth.

You mean you continue to use the name because of Tradition. It has nothing to do with it fitting. Its due to familiarity. We might as well change the names on all the Hebrew names into Latin.



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by whirlwind
That is a beautiful verse and our expected end is peace. To achieve that however you must read the scriptures that follow that one.

12.Then shall ye call upon Me, and ye shall go and pray unto Me, and I will hearken unto you.
13.And ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me with all your heart.


We must seek Him only, no other gods, to find that peace.


Yes, my dear. It is not achieved; it is a gift from God. It is not found but rather revealed.

I KNOW that. How do I know? Because I have. I have never sought anything else but God. I have read the scriptures until they have become part of my gray matter. God has shown me things I can't even begin to try to explain...but suffice it to say that I have come to understand what Isaiah wrote which Paul referenced:


But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
~ 1 Corinthians 2:9



Those that do not teach what to expect in the end of days don't warn that Satan comes first pretending to be Christ.


Well....what if that one has already come? And what if hardly anyone realized they were fooled? Is that not what is written in Revelation?


And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
~ Revelation 13:8


ALL that dwell upon the earth...do you know that the book of life of the Lamb is the bible which you study every day? It is. Is your name in there? Would you know it if it were?

I can assure you that while it seems like total doom to be included in those that are fooled, it is not. But it HAS already happened; long long ago. It is just about over in our present time, although this is not understood yet.

It is actually for the good of all that this has happened. All that God does is for our good even though we fail to see that. It is because of judging according to the flesh that we do not see.


For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
~ Romans 11:32-33




If He isn't the one we call upon, pray to, seek and find and instead follow the false one masquerading as Him, then we will not find peace as our "expected end".


I have peace within myself. Total and indescribable - all the time 25/7. Now I am waiting for the world to experience the same and doing all I can to hasten it along. But yet it is not up to me to do anything but the little bit I can...love my neighbor as myself....fear not...and believe only.


God bless you.



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 07:44 PM
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Originally posted by jakyll
again...

"""The word "Lucifer" comes from 2 Latin words:
Lux (=light) + ferous (=to bear or carry). Thus the name "Lucifer" means Light-bearer or Light-bringer.

As a result of this Latin Vulgate translation, which was almost the only version of the Bible in use throughout Europe for the next 1000 years,

I'm prety sure hellel does not mean venus or morning star directly but it means in pure latin just what you are saying , the correct word for helel is blazing light bringer in pure latin.
While the word in vulgar latin means morning star in pure latin it's the name taken apart just like you explained it.

To put this vulgar latin issue to rest.

From this site.
Indtoducing the study of torah.

Who is hellel and what is his meaning as a name.

www.amightywind.com...
I did not quote the whole site, but it mainly refers to the name and it's meaning
A short example from it.


We have 4 rivers, all coming from one river. It starts out as one river (Nahar - Hebrew), and the river divides and becomes four riverheads.

RIVER IN THE HEBREW #5104 – NAHAR – MEANS: A STREAM, A FLOWING, OR SOMETHING THAT RUNS TO AND FRO. Remember the runs to and fro, it comes from the word – nahar – the same word #5102 which means to flow. Now strange meanings from this word – nahar – the root word of nahar – to give light, brightness, to beam or shine (HELLEL – satan)







Satan popularly became known as Lucifer. It should be self-evident that when the first people who translated the Bible into English came along, one of their paradigms was that the name "Lucifer" applied to Satan.

It came to this because it is in fact translated shiny one, light bringer.

The diference is that it's not directly a name for the morning star but the association was made because the words put toghether as in lucifer and it's meaning equals the same outcome.
Why would people call him lucifer, why would the translation get to this point? because the word lucifer taken apart means just that to shine to bring light, if you put it back in one peace it means morning star planet venus.




And they could do this because on the surface this seems to be a reasonably accurate translation. But it isn't really! I mentioned earlier that the word "Lucifer" appears only once in the English versions of the Bible.

And in the dead sea manuscripts several times, can't find a copy of it now, but it's there serveral times.
It's not translated directly morning star but taken apart it's just that.





" Halal " is used 165 times in the Old Testament and it is translated as follows in the KJV:

* 117 times = Praise
* 14 times = Glory
* 10 times = Boast
* 8 times = Mad
* 3 times = Shine(d)
* 3 times = Foolish
* 2 times = Fools
* 2 times = Commended
* 2 times = Rage
* 1 time = Celebrate
* 1 time = Give
* 1 time = Marriage
* 1 time = Renowned

Hellel or halal?

[

[edit on 2-9-2007 by pepsi78]



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 08:05 PM
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Show me where helel is an angel. Isaiah specifically says he is a man and that he will die.

1
You got the Canaanitish mythology
Helel - In Canaanitish mythology, a fallen angel, son of Sahar or Sharer, a winged deity. Helel sought to usurp the throne of the chief god and, as punishment, was cast down into the abyss. Cf. the Lucifer legend.
Same story, exactly identical angel with wings tring to take over the throne.

2 I posted a link above, study of the name hellel and all it's representation.


3 Also mentioned in the dead sea manuscripts.


4 There is no important figure by the name of helel, no king nothing at the time present in babylon.






Winged what? Where did you get the wings idea? Helel can be a name used for the planet Venus. In ancient times it may of been Mercury.

I have seen some research where Mercury is a better fit. I have also seen where it may have nothing to do with Hebrew Astronomy. See the following:


Exactly because in pure latin it's not the morning star, but the light bringer.
So what is your point , it's still called the light bringer, shiny one. lucifer taken apart as a word means just that.


I'm not going to argue with you anymore, it's pointles



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 08:14 PM
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Originally posted by whirlwind
There is good and evil,


And what is the origin of BOTH?


I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
~ Isaiah 45:7



there is the Rock and the rock, there is Christ and the anti-christ, there is light and darkness, there is the Morning Star and the morning star.


What's with the capital letters?

The translations selectively translate as well as capitalize. There was no such thing as capital letters in Hebrew. Tsor is rock. That is 'the' rock.

And in the Greek, it is petra. Without exception.

As far as Christ and 'THE' anti-christ.

...well there is absolutely NO actual phrase in the bible properly translated as 'the anti-christ.' Not ONCE is 'anti-christ' preceded by the definite article (the). Which is only 4 times written by John anyway....and when Christ mentions 'false' messiahs, which is just ONCE, it is another word entirely than the one translated 'antichrist' as written by John. To top it off, John does not mention it at all in Revelation.

It is neither a singular designation nor a specific one. It is a doctrine of man taught as scriptural truth. But it is false.

We ALL start out as Christ's opposition; just by virtue of the fact that we are naturally self-centered beings as humans.

Until we love our neighbor as ourself, IN TRUTH, we are 'anti-christ.'

And besides our self, only God knows when our soul converts because it HIS law that converts us and HIS eye that searches our hearts and reins.


Satan comes pretending to be Christ.


It does NOT say that. Men say that and men believe that. The bible says no such thing.


Throughout the Bible you will see references to his impersonation, as in the morning star.


Throughout?
Like often? How many times? Where?

Sons of God are 'morning stars' in the book of Job.


We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
~ 2 Peter 1:19


The 'day-star' upon which Peter tells us will arise in our hearts as a signal to the dawn IS phosphorus:


G5459
phōsphoros
From G5457 and G5342; light bearing (“phosphorus”), that is, (specifically) the morning star (figuratively): - day star.


That IS FACT. Undeniable fact. It is ALSO undeniable fact that St. Jerome translated BOTH 'heylel' and 'phosphorus' as Lucifer.

Now, you can do with that what you want, to be sure. BUT the facts of what is actually written in the Bible are, indeed, facts. Meaning something we can all look at and see the exact same thing (as far as what the ink is shaped as upon the paper.)



posted on Sep, 3 2007 @ 01:24 AM
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Originally posted by pepsi78



Show me where helel is an angel. Isaiah specifically says he is a man and that he will die.

1
You got the Canaanitish mythology
Helel - In Canaanitish mythology, a fallen angel, son of Sahar or Sharer, a winged deity. Helel sought to usurp the throne of the chief god and, as punishment, was cast down into the abyss. Cf. the Lucifer legend.
Same story, exactly identical angel with wings tring to take over the throne.

2 I posted a link above, study of the name hellel and all it's representation.


3 Also mentioned in the dead sea manuscripts.


4 There is no important figure by the name of helel, no king nothing at the time present in babylon.






Winged what? Where did you get the wings idea? Helel can be a name used for the planet Venus. In ancient times it may of been Mercury.

I have seen some research where Mercury is a better fit. I have also seen where it may have nothing to do with Hebrew Astronomy. See the following:


Exactly because in pure latin it's not the morning star, but the light bringer.
So what is your point , it's still called the light bringer, shiny one. lucifer taken apart as a word means just that.


I'm not going to argue with you anymore, it's pointles


Helel in Canaanite myth is a deity and possibly an epithet of Ashtar and not the son of Shaher. He or She doesnt try to usurp the throne of the Cheif deity which would be El, but sits in Baal's throne.

What is this Angel with wings thing? The Seraphim and Cherubim have wings and thats it. Malakhim dont have wings. Ofanim dont have wings. The Morning Stars dont have wings. The Sons of G-d dont have wings. The Sarim dont have wings.

Your link to: ALPHA & OMEGA ALMIGHTYWIND RUACH HA KODESH WILDFIRE LAST CHANCE MINISTRY
I dont know what that place was but that wasnt even Reform Judaism.

Show me in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The usage in that passage is a prophecy. Dont forget that. So it may apply to Nabonidus the last King of Babylon or a future king.



posted on Sep, 3 2007 @ 07:35 AM
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reply to post by pepsi78
 


Hellel/heylel is derived from the primitive root word " halal "

"" the book which introduced this dark spirit to mankind, uses a different name—Heylel. It is derived from halal. (The paleo-Hebrew of Isaiah’s time, the man who first used the name, did not include vowels, and from what we can tell, the “e” and “a” sounds were interchangeable. What scholars transliterate as “Heylel” could just as easily have been, and probably was, “Haylal.”)
The Hebrew “halal” (pronounced, haw-lal’) is like many words in that it has a dual nature—reflecting both good and bad characteristics. It means, “to be clear.” Originally this clarity pertained to sound, or words but it migrated to color, or light. Thus it came to mean “shine.” Isaiah had this meaning in mind when he said that Heylel was the Morning Star, better known as the sun—the principle deity in most cultures throughout history. It is why we know Satan as Lucifer, or light.
There is more to the Hebrew word halal. It means to make a show, to boast, to be clamorous and foolish. Halal also means to rave and celebrate in rage."""


"""The word translated Lucifer in Isayah 14:12 comes from two Hebrew words: Heylel and Halal, Strong's Hebrew Dictionary gives the definitions of these two words:

1966. heylel, ay-lale'; from 1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:--lucifer.

1984. halal, haw-lal'; a prim. root; to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causat. to celebrate; also to stultify:__(make)boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine."""



posted on Sep, 3 2007 @ 07:57 AM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 



Originally posted by whirlwind
From Babylon have come false religions. If it isn't God that is worshiped who would it be?



All religions are basically false because they are made by men. God is pure spirit, remember? And so only to worship in spirit and truth is true worship. And religion - ALL religions - are somehow associated with praxis, rituals, or some other sort of 'showing.' And so in the end, even though they serve a purpose and also are just as capable as leading one to God as they are as leading one away, ultimately it comes down to the innermost being of a person's soul.


Yes, religions are basically false. Christianity isn't a religion but a way of life. It isn't man-made. When you say, "God is pure spirit, remember?". I don't remember, nor do I understand. Please tell me where it is written so I can see what you mean.


Bullinger states that the verse should read: "And upon her forehead (she had) a name written, a secret symbol (musterion), Babylon The Great, the mother of the harlots and of the abominations of the earth.
The name of the woman is therefore a secret sign or symbol of "that great city" which she personifies."......Musterion = mystery. EXACTLY.....(snip]....Now, here is the BIGGIE:.....

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery (musterion): but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
~ Ephesians 5:31-32

Now, if you read ALL those verses I listed, in their context, with an OPEN MIND instead of automatically referring to Bullinger's understandings...then you might see something amazing.


Because I quoted Bullinger you believe I have a closed mind? I don't "automatically quote him" and there are things I disagree with but I rely on his knowledge of what was in the original manuscript and their meaning.

I believe "Mystery Babylon" is religion, all religion.


I have nothing at all against Bullinger; in fact, he is one of the few biblical scholars that I have found to be of value - obviously his heart was pure and he was led by the Holy Spirit. BUT if the Holy Spirit can lead Bullinger, then no doubt the same can lead you. BUT if you do NOT give it a chance, then you miss out. Listening to another who was led by the Spirit and just accepting what they say instead of allowing the Spirit to help you understand better with such help, then you are not allowing yourself to be taught by the Holy Spirit. You are choosing to be taught by a man. And since the first Pentecost, there is absolutely no reason ANYONE cannot have the same access to the TRUTH as it comes from G.O.D. and G.O.D. alone!.....We have two choices: to trust in God or trust in men....To trust in a man who trusted God is still to trust in a MAN.


Why do you assume I am not guided by the Holy Spirit?


.........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 3 2007 @ 08:02 AM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 


You mentioned "false messiahs" and i was just wondering how many people know what that word really represents as well...

""Definition. Messiah is the transliteration of a Hebrew term, Mashiach. The New Testament (Greek) equivalent is Christos. Both terms mean "the anointed one." The verb mashach, found about 140 times in the Old Testament, means "to smear, anoint, or spread."
Description. The verb was frequently used for the ceremonial induction into leadership. Three types of leaders were anointed:

Prophets represented God among the people (1 Kings 19:15-16).

Priests represented the people before God through sacrifices and prayers (Ex. 28:40-41).

Kings defended and ruled over the people on Gods behalf
(1 Sam.16:12-13).

Implications. The anointing meant that someone was authorized to serve God in a position of honor and responsibility. Divine enablement often accompanied the anointing. While many were anointed, only One was given the title of "the Anointed One."""


"""the word messiah is an anglicized form of the Hebrew word, moshiach. Its root word, mashach, is found about 140 times in the Old Testament, and means “to smear, anoint, or spread.”

Mashach in Hebrew or masaha (literally to rub, to massage) in Arabic, has the meaning of anointing someone in a religious ceremony by putting holy water or oil on them. Priests and kings were anointed when being consecrated to their offices. Prophets were anointed by God in the sense that they were specially chosen by God for a specific religious mission.

In fact, the Bible is replete with “anointed” ones. Although, every prophet of God is an anointed one of God, the title Messiah or its translation “Christ” is exclusively reserved for Jesus the son of Mary (`Isa ibn Maryam) in both Islam and in Christianity. This is not unusual in religion.

There are certain other titles that can be applied to more than one prophet, yet are specifically used for only one prophet, like Rasul Allah, meaning “Messenger of God.” This title is applied to both Moses (19:51) and Jesus (61:6) in the Qur’an, yet Rasul Allah among Muslims stands for Muhammad, (peace and blessings be upon him). Indeed, associating certain titles with certain personages does not make them unique on that score. In olden days, priests and kings were anointed as part of the consecration ceremony."""


Many men have been hailed as messiah because they have saved/freed the jewish people etc.for example....

Cyrus the Great.
Simon bar Kokhba.
Alexander the Great.
Sabbatai Zevi.

but the "greatest" must be Arthur James Balfour,as it was his Balfour Declaration of 1917 that led to the founding of the modern state of Israel.


[edit on 3-9-2007 by jakyll]



posted on Sep, 3 2007 @ 08:34 AM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 


Continued:



WW - "Either of those two give the meaning in which I used the word "pure confusion". I don't find it to be an oxymoron.....QA - "Babel means 'confusion; mixture.' Pure means 'unmixed.' Do you see, now?
An unmixed mixture?


No I don't. Babel creates pure confusion. Unmixed confusion, nothing but confusion.


They all seemed to say the same thing......

No doubt. They DO say the same thing. And yet NONE of them mentioned anything even remotely akin to 'evil' or 'satanic.'

And you didn't tell me where it was that you got that idea, anyway. Would you mind sharing that?



Why was the confusion caused and who caused it? As I've said before, if it is there to take us away from the worship of God what could it be except evil or satanic?

As far as I remember no one gave me that idea. To me, it seems obvious. Mystery Babylon the Great Mother of Harlots, etc. - Babylon and the things she stands for isn't a good thing.

....Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 3 2007 @ 09:21 AM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 


WW - That is a beautiful verse and our expected end is peace. To achieve that however you must read the scriptures that follow that one.

QA - Yes, my dear. It is not achieved; it is a gift from God. It is not found but rather revealed.

I KNOW that. How do I know? Because I have. I have never sought anything else but God. I have read the scriptures until they have become part of my gray matter. God has shown me things I can't even begin to try to explain...but suffice it to say that I have come to understand what Isaiah wrote which Paul referenced: ....~ 1 Corinthians 2:9


It is a gift from God but to receive his gift you must "show yourself approved", as you have by studying His Word and by seeking only God. If you had not done that you may have been "called by the Holy Spirit" but would you have understood to the depth you now do?

11Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.



WW - Those that do not teach what to expect in the end of days don't warn that Satan comes first pretending to be Christ.

QA - Well....what if that one has already come? And what if hardly anyone realized they were fooled? Is that not what is written in Revelation?

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
~ Revelation 13:8

ALL that dwell upon the earth...do you know that the book of life of the Lamb is the bible which you study every day? It is. Is your name in there? Would you know it if it were?

I can assure you that while it seems like total doom to be included in those that are fooled, it is not. But it HAS already happened; long long ago. It is just about over in our present time, although this is not understood yet.

It is actually for the good of all that this has happened. All that God does is for our good even though we fail to see that. It is because of judging according to the flesh that we do not see.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
~ Romans 11:32-33


I don't believe we are living in the millennium now. I've read points pro and con. The destruction of Jerusalem was not what Christ referenced when He told us of the end of days. It isn't far but it is not yet.

I do know that the "book of life" is the Bible and I feel that my name is written there, I pray it is. God has "concluded them all in unbelief", or in other words, sent the spirit of slumber. He blinded their eyes and ears to the truth for their protection. There is one unforgivable sin and only the elect can commit it. Others are protected from that sin by not knowing the truth.


WW - If He isn't the one we call upon, pray to, seek and find and instead follow the false one masquerading as Him, then we will not find peace as our "expected end".

QA - I have peace within myself. Total and indescribable - all the time 25/7. Now I am waiting for the world to experience the same and doing all I can to hasten it along. But yet it is not up to me to do anything but the little bit I can...love my neighbor as myself....fear not...and believe only.


I have that peace too - it is indescribable. You are right in that only God can open the eyes of others but it is up to us to plant seeds - He will, or will not, make them germinate.

God bless you too.

.......Whirlwind



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