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Satan is not Lucifer.

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posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 08:42 AM
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I cant stand it. I keep hearing Christians and even Satanists referencing myths that are not substantiated by the Bible. Well I have had enough and I am here to set the facts straight.

Ha Satan or The Satan of the Books of Job and Zechariah is not the same as Lucifer in the Book of Isaiah.

Lets look at the Famous chapter in Isaiah in Context: Chapter 14:3-4

"3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy travail, and from thy trouble, and from the hard service wherein thou wast made to serve,
4 that thou shalt take up this parable against the king of Babylon, and say: How hath the oppressor ceased! the exactress of gold ceased! "

Notice this is a prophecy. Notice that this is a Parable against the King of Babylon.

"9 The nether-world from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; the shades are stirred up for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; all the kings of the nations are raised up from their thrones.
10 All they do answer and say unto thee: 'Art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the nether-world, and the noise of thy psalteries; the maggot is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee."

Notice that the dead are greeting the arrival of this King of Babylon, who has died.

The famous often used out of context verse:

"12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations! "

Day Star is often translated as Lucifer. Lucifer in fact is a Minor Roman deity son of Aurora. He is the same as the Greek god Phosphorus son of Eos.

The Day Star is actually the word Helel. Helel is a Hebrew word for the planet Venus in the morning, aka Morning Star.

Here Helel dies and is not even given proper burial:

"18 All the kings of the nations, all of them, sleep in glory, every one in his own house.
19 But thou art cast forth away from thy grave like an abhorred offshoot, in the raiment of the slain, that are thrust through with the sword, that go down to the pavement of the pit, as a carcass trodden under foot.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, thou hast slain thy people; the seed of evil-doers shall not be named for ever. "

Satan is not the King of Tyre from Ezekiel 28 either. Again like the Prophecy Against the King of Babylon this is a Prophecy against the King of Tyre (Phoenecia)
Again G-d kills a mortal being.

Satan on the other hand is not the Prince or King of any nation of Men. The being in Job and Zechariah is an Accuser, Prosecutor, and Persecutor. He is not the Enemy of G-d, but he is the Enemy of Humankind. He does not care for humanity. He is not some Gnostic Liberator. He hates the Human race like Hitler hated Jews. He sees us as maggots to be crushed.

Reality is not a cosmic struggle between G-d and Satan. It is a Trial of Humanity. Satan is the Prosecutor before the Divine Court, the Adatel. He accuses the Human Race of being unfit to exist. G-d is the Judge. An even better example is the Office of Public Procurator in either the USSR or the People's Republic of China. Satan's function is similar if not identical to the Procurator General in the USSR than the Attorney General of the USA. In Zechariah an Angel of the Lord is shown to be an Advocate for humanity. The identity of this Advocate is not given. Interestingly the Identity of Satan is not given either.

Here's a recap:

Satan is not Lucifer.
Satan is a title, like Procurator, of a Celestial Being in the Adatel.
Lucifer is a Roman deity.
Helel is the poetic name of the King of Babylon.
Humanity is on Trial.
Satan is the Procurator.

Thanks for taking the time to read my ramblings.




posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 08:52 AM
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Thanks for that. My gal and I both felt they were not the same. I read Satan was like the DA for God, or the disciplinarian. So folks hated when he showed up.
Lucifer, to me, has too many parallels to Jesus to ignore. They could be the two sides of the same entity.
Don't know if any of it is right, though.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Thanks for that. My gal and I both felt they were not the same. I read Satan was like the DA for God, or the disciplinarian. So folks hated when he showed up.
Lucifer, to me, has too many parallels to Jesus to ignore. They could be the two sides of the same entity.
Don't know if any of it is right, though.


I'm kind of curious about these parallels youve drawn. The only one I can think of is the Morning Star reference. Oddly Morning Stars are mentioned as Celestial Beings in Job.

"When the Morning Stars sang together and all the Sons of G-d shouted for joy?" Out of Context Job 38:7

Unless your implying Jesus and the Greek /Roman Divinity are related?

I dont think the Prophecy in Isaiah about the King of Babylon applies to Jesus.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 09:04 AM
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This is a subject that has been discussed several times here at ATS... For me, the jury is still out on this one.

However, here are a few things that come up when you do a search for this:

The bible plainly states that the Devi (Satan) was a murderer from the beginning


"Ye [Gk: ‘all’ of you] are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not [does not stand] in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not" (John 8:44-45).



Lucifer was actually an angel at one time. That is not a murderer. Lucifer was the "light bearer." That's not very indicative of this character we have come to know as Satan..



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 09:09 AM
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reply to post by SpeakerofTruth
 


2 Corinthians 11:14

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
This is a subject that has been discussed several times here at ATS... For me, the jury is still out on this one.

However, here are a few things that come up when you do a search for this:

The bible plainly states that the Devi (Satan) was a murderer from the beginning


"Ye [Gk: ‘all’ of you] are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not [does not stand] in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not" (John 8:44-45).



Lucifer was actually an angel at one time. That is not a murderer. Lucifer was the "light bearer." That's not very indicative of this character we have come to know as Satan..


Lucifer was a Roman divinity, the Son of the Roman deity Aurora. The word Lucifer is Latin and does not appear in Hebrew or Greek. There is no Light Bearer, only the word Helel meaning Morning Star. Read the whole chapter in context it is a Prophecy against the King of Babylon.

When the New Testament contradicts the Tanakh there is a misunderstanding at hand. The idea that Ha Satan could act without the Will of G-d simply does not exist in the Tanakh.

We should examine if John is even applicable and if so who is this Devil?



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 09:20 AM
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Sun I am aware of the verse you are mentioning. However, how is it that an angel, as Lucifer once was, is a murderer? That is a contradiction of terms.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 09:22 AM
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Originally posted by Sun Matrix
reply to post by SpeakerofTruth
 


2 Corinthians 11:14

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


Again when there is a contradiction between Tanakh and the New Testament there is misunderstanding. Corinthians is one of the Pauline Epistles.

I can see this is going to turn into a What is Canon debate.

Remember that the Tanakh does not include the Writings of Paul or the Apostles.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 09:34 AM
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Originally posted by MikeboydUS
Remember that the Tanakh does not include the Writings of Paul or the Apostles.


Right.. It is the writings of the OT...



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
Remember that the Tanakh does not include the Writings of Paul or the Apostles.


Right.. It is the writings of the OT...


Me being Jewish, the Tanakh is the most important guide to my understanding. Jesus and the Apostles had access to the same Tanakh in their time, with the exception of the Book of Enoch. Which is a very fascinating book that they had access to and even quote from in the New Testament. Knowing what they knew and had access to helps put things in a historical context.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 01:13 PM
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I read recently that Lucifer comes from the word Lucifera which is a woman's name. So apparently Lucifer is a female. The church turned Lucifer into the devil because it considers the female of the species to be evil, as in, Eve, Mary Magdalene etc. & that's why the big witch burnings in the past too. Any free-thinking woman was a threat to establishment and destroyed. Basically it's all to do with power, as usual.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by MikeboydUS
I'm kind of curious about these parallels youve drawn. The only one I can think of is the Morning Star reference. Oddly Morning Stars are mentioned as Celestial Beings in Job.

"When the Morning Stars sang together and all the Sons of G-d shouted for joy?" Out of Context Job 38:7

Unless your implying Jesus and the Greek /Roman Divinity are related?

I dont think the Prophecy in Isaiah about the King of Babylon applies to Jesus.

It is my take on it that there are many names for the one they call Lucifer. I see parallels in that he was the first son, the most perfect angel God made, and Jesus is considered the same.
Venus is the planet symbolizing love, as Jesus is also a symbol of love. T Lucifer as the light bringer, and Jesus as the light of the world is another.
I am the light and the way, etc. They are both firmly connected to light.
Jesus rebelled against the leaders of the church, Lucifer rebelled against God.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by MikeboydUS
There is no Light Bearer, only the word Helel meaning Morning Star. Read the whole chapter in context it is a Prophecy against the King of Babylon.




And so...........who is this King of Babylon that is being talked about????



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 03:28 PM
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the devil was the angle of light but felt he could do a better job then god and so god cast him out of heaven. no more an angle he now dwells in hell and reaks havoc on earth. God knows all and is almighty. Creating Lucifer at the time of creation he knew he would turn on him for he was meant to. All is being done and has been done. Time means nothing to god. whatever was or is to be for us and angles and anything would and is known to god.Nothing comes as a shock. We could never comprehend the power and knowledge of the almighty creator. Satan, Lucifer , Beazulbug , the devil what ever his name he" it " exist for a reason needed for us. The purpose is most likely mis understood. Being lost in Translation could be the major cause for our societies confusion on the Bible. After all our language didn't exist 2,000 years or more ago. We'll realy have to take or time and ponder the messages for us in the bible and not argue the interpretation of message.
oh and on the Jesus and the church . The church turned into a money making flea market that made Jesus angry and yell at the church and it's members. It wasn't Jesus Being like the Devil it was man using the word of god to profit from and even trying to trick Jesus into a debate many times. Men are more like the devil then Jesus ever could be compared too.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by wigit
I read recently that Lucifer comes from the word Lucifera which is a woman's name. So apparently Lucifer is a female. The church turned Lucifer into the devil because it considers the female of the species to be evil, as in, Eve, Mary Magdalene etc. & that's why the big witch burnings in the past too. Any free-thinking woman was a threat to establishment and destroyed. Basically it's all to do with power, as usual.


You'll have to show me what your talking about. As far as I know Lucifer is the name of a Roman male deity and the son of a female Roman deity named Aurora.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by mrRviewer We could never comprehend the power and knowledge of the almighty creator. Satan, Lucifer , Beazulbug , the devil what ever his name he" it " exist for a reason needed for us. The purpose is most likely mis understood. It wasn't Jesus Being like the Devil it was man using the word of god to profit from and even trying to trick Jesus into a debate many times. Men are more like the devil then Jesus ever could be compared too.

I like your post. I agree, if there is a supreme being, we are far too limited in understanding to ever know what it is like. It is beyond us, by its very definition. Buddha is said to have taught people to spend time helping others and not trying to learn what is impossible to learn. It is my take that the duality of many aspects of reality is required. Darkness is needed for light to exist, mountains require valleys, and maybe Lucifer is needed for that same reason.
Men are devilish. I like the reference to Jesus' little tantrum, it is hard to picture the prince of peace throwing a hissy fit.
What I don't get is why there need be a God and Devil anyway? There is good and evil, for sure, but does that require there be God and the Devil?



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 03:58 PM
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Lucifer is the Roman name for the planet Venus, also known as The Lightbringer, or The Morning Star. When the sun rises, Venus precedes it, thus earning its name The Lightbringer.

Christianity borrowed from Roman mythology, as it has with many other cultures' mythos, by claiming that Lucifer, or Venus, was cast out by God - or the Sun. In the sky, Venus precedes the sun before the sun rises/triumphs over Venus/Lucifer and casts Venus/Lucifer out of the sky/heaven.

It wasn't until medieval time when St. Jerome gave Satan/Lucifer the same name and equated one with the other in his translation of The Bible. Today, however, in most versions of the Bible the proper noun "Lucifer" does not appear once. All references to Lucifer in the Bible were merely allegorical to the kings/rulers of the time. It wasn't until later that people like St. Jerome, Dante Alighieri and others influenced the belief that Lucifer/Satan were one in the same. The epic poems The Iliad and Paradise Lost also helped ferment this belief.

On an interesting side note, I saw this great lecture Jordan Maxwell gave in which he explained how George Lucas came up with the name Luke Skywalker. Luke is a derivative of Lucias, which is a derivative of Lucifer. Lucifer is another name for Venus. Venus Skywalker. The planet Venus "walks" the sky as the sun rises and "triumphs" over evil/the dark side/night time.

I could go on forever with this subject..



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 04:01 PM
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Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
There is no Light Bearer, only the word Helel meaning Morning Star. Read the whole chapter in context it is a Prophecy against the King of Babylon.




And so...........who is this King of Babylon that is being talked about????


The King of Babylon in the prophecy could be the last King of Babylon before the Persian Empire conquered the Babylonian Empire. The Last King of Babylon was named Nabonidus.

Look at the book of Daniel where Daniel interprets Balshazzar's dream about the fall of Babylon. Nabonidus like the king in the prophecy was never placed in a tomb. In fact no one knows what exactly happened to him. Cyrus, Emperor of Persia was greeted as a Liberator at the fall of Babylon. Historically Cyrus kept Kings from lands he conquered alive and often served in the Empire, but Nabonidus was an exception.

Another idea is that it refers to a future King of Babylon, a False Messiah. For some odd reason I keep finding people who think it's Jesus but I just dont see how thats possible.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII

Lucifer, to me, has too many parallels to Jesus to ignore. They could be the two sides of the same entity.



Much like the yin and yang, the light and dark side, etc.

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star." -Revelations 16:22

Both are one in the same, neither good or evil.

It's also interesting to note that the story/myth of the main Mayan god Quetzalcoatl almost identically parallel the story/myth of Jesus. Only difference is that when Quetzalcoatl passes on, he ignites himself and ascends into the sky, and becomes the morning star, or Venus.

Very, very interesting stuff.



posted on Aug, 17 2007 @ 04:11 PM
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Originally posted by mrRviewer
the devil was the angle of light but felt he could do a better job then god and so god cast him out of heaven. no more an angle he now dwells in hell and reaks havoc on earth. God knows all and is almighty. Creating Lucifer at the time of creation he knew he would turn on him for he was meant to. All is being done and has been done. Time means nothing to god. whatever was or is to be for us and angles and anything would and is known to god.Nothing comes as a shock. We could never comprehend the power and knowledge of the almighty creator. Satan, Lucifer , Beazulbug , the devil what ever his name he" it " exist for a reason needed for us. The purpose is most likely mis understood. Being lost in Translation could be the major cause for our societies confusion on the Bible. After all our language didn't exist 2,000 years or more ago. We'll realy have to take or time and ponder the messages for us in the bible and not argue the interpretation of message.
oh and on the Jesus and the church . The church turned into a money making flea market that made Jesus angry and yell at the church and it's members. It wasn't Jesus Being like the Devil it was man using the word of god to profit from and even trying to trick Jesus into a debate many times. Men are more like the devil then Jesus ever could be compared too.


There is no basis for this in the Bible. Satan is a the Heavenly Procurator, Lucifer is a minor Roman deity, and Baal Zebul was the title for a Canaanite deity.

You should check out Isaiah 45:7

"I form the Light and the Darkness, I make Peace and create Evil. I, the Lord do all these things."

The G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has no equal and no opposite. There is no Cosmic Dualism according to the Bible. There is only G-d, Humanity's Trial, and eventual Final Judgement.



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