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Satan is not Lucifer.

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posted on Sep, 1 2007 @ 06:59 AM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 



Micah says, in chapter 4, verse 5:
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever"....
It does not say EVERYONE. It says WE. ....If it makes a contradiction in your understanding, then there is an explanation in scripture. You can't throw one verse out because it doesn't fit in with what you believe....I know you know this.


I do know that but I also know that God does not contradict Himself. It isn't that it "doesn't fit in with what I believe" but it goes against His Word. When scripture throws up a red flag, as this one does, you must stop and consider the possibilities. From the beginning of the Bible through the end He warns us about having any other gods before Him. Following another god, Satan, keeps us from being part of the first resurrection (Rev.20:4-5). That lesson is drilled into us throughout.

Another scripture that throws up that same flag is Luke 14:26

If any man come to Me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

It doesn't make sense that we should hate our parents when we are told, in the 10 Commandments, to "Honor our Mother and Father". The puzzle is solved when we go to the same scripture as Luke 14:26, as told in Matthew 10:37

He that loveth father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

The true meaning is that we must Love Him more, not hate mom and dad.

So...when you say: "Obviously so. It says so right there in Micah! And also says: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it....God told Israel not to have any other Gods before him....not everyone else. True, in the end, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess - but this is going to be because of the witness of Israel." I have to disagree with that because it is a contradiction in God's Words.

The word "god" does not mean "Our Lord god" as we know Him, or even a pagan god...it means: 430. 'elohiym (el-o-heem') gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative; angels, X exceeding, God (gods - dess,), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

An example is in the Book of Ruth where the "gods" (Ruth 1:15) were really judges, as indicated in 1:1.

Micah is speaking of the millennium (last days...vs 1) and is indicating that many disputes will be settled (vs 3) and during the millennium the Lord will have resurrected Saints (now immortal beings) helping Him to do just this...and judge the affairs (vs 3) of mankind. During the 1,000 year period, where there is no Satanic influence, it will be a great learning experience for mortals yet inhabiting the Earth....learning to do things God's way.

So...to me, rather than that time being when everyone can following whatever god they choose, it means all will walk the path of our Lord and there will be saints, judges, elect (gods) there to instruct them.

I'll have to continue this is another post:

.......Whirlwind




posted on Sep, 1 2007 @ 08:39 AM
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reply to post by whirlwind
 



"Babylon, bable/confusion, is being void of the knowledge of God."...NO. Babel simply means 'confusion.' What dictionary do you use?


Smith's Bible Dictionary: Ba'bel (confusion), Bab'ylon (Greek form of Babel)...

Everything associated with it is pure confusion. The Tower of Babel, Baal, Bel - Evil confusion, much, if not all of it Satanic. All of the "confusion" of Babylon leads to "being void of the knowledge of God", the true knowledge. Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to Me: seeng thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.


NO WHERE in the bible does it say that OR insinuate that.
In fact, Nebuchadnezzar ended up anything but void about the knowledge of God:


That is true. He wrote the beautiful 4th chapter of Daniel but nevertheless he was a type of the anti-christ. God teaches us that as he instructed Jeremiah to tell His children they must go into captivity to the king of Babylon so must we at the end of days. Satan, prince of this world age, will have all nations follow him, a one world political and religious system (the beast and the false prophet). God will use us during that time and then the end will come - the True Christ will reign.


Those are teachings of men. Satan means 'accuser.' He is NOT a serpent or a particular being or anything like that. Simply an adversary. I am being your 'satan' in this discussion, technically speaking....God NEVER says that the King of Babylon is Satan; in fact, He calls the King of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar, specifically) his servant. More than once!


I believe it is the teaching of God, not man. Satan is the accuser but he is also the serpent - he has many names. The king of Babylon was His servant, just as Satan is. Rev.13:7

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Satan is God's servant as Nebudchadnezzer was.


According to Jeremiah 27:7-8, ALL NATIONS were to serve King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon; until the time of 'his land come' and then still nations and kings will serve him...nothing is said at all about excluding Christianity (which of course DID NOT EXIST and was not EVEN foretold of the prophets).


They were to go into captivity to him as we will. As children of God we cannot worship him. Our lesson is given in the story of the 3 Hebrew children who would not bow to his statue. They were thrown in the fire but WERE NOT harmed. Nor will we be harmed if we do not worship Satan.

I don't understand what you mean about Christianity not even being foretold of - Christ was foretold by the prophets, in many places and I know you know that so..... please explain.

I must continue this later......Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 1 2007 @ 11:50 AM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 



There is one assembly that is God's elect - Israel (not the UN-sanctioned country but God's elect). If God tells us to do something, then I guess we better do what He says, right? WHATEVER it is... If we are to be over-comers (prevail with God), that is.


I agree in that the Israel of the Bible is not the "nation" of Israel today but rather the 10 scattered tribes. All of the 12 tribes are God's chosen people. But, there are the elect and the very elect. There are the 7,000 and then the 144,000.


Until you understand who/what the 'beast' is, your theology is going to be confused. The beast is man -the sons of men. Ecclesiastes 3:18


....and that they might see that they themseles are beasts

They aren't the "beast" of Revelation. In Ecclesiastes he is telling us that, like the beasts, we too will die and , all go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.(20)

The "beast" God warns us of you will find in Rev. 13. The first beast is multi-headed and is a political system. The second beast is Satan under the guise of Christ, and he had two horns as a lamb and spake as a dragon. He is the dragon, Satan, pretending to be Christ, the Lamb and he will deceive many.


Worshiping the man Jesus is worshiping the beast. We are to worship God only. Who is pure spirit. Jesus said so, himself.


We must believe in the Son to receive salvation. Where did Jesus tell us we are to worship God only?
John 10:30 I and My Father are one.
14:6 Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.
14:7 If ye had known Me, ye should have known My Father also: and from henceforth ye know Him, and have seen Him."



The strong delusion. It is the division that religions cause. The ONLY way to peace is to cease division. God is going to give us an expected end:


Yes, religion does cause delusion and division but the "strong delusion" of end times is different than what the world has experienced since Christ. The delusion is that Satan comes pretending to be Christ and "the whole world will wonder after him". What are many of our churches teaching now? That we will be raptured away and that teaching goes against everything Jesus told us. There is no rapture. We will be here and most will not be ready for it and will fall for the deceit of Satan. That is the strong delusion God sends to see if we have read His letter, to see if the teachers have taught us. They have not! Those that don't teach rapture also don't teach what to expect in the end of days. The world is unprepared.


"The daughter of Zion, will go to Babylon and be delivered from her enemies. How will that happen? God's elect will speak God's truth in Jerusalem (the Holy Spirit will speak through them) and "even the gainsayers cannot resist" Luke 21:15."........EXACTLY. Right now. These present days. The very days in which we wake and sleep day after day.


No, we're close but we aren't there now. There will be no doubt when that happens.


........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 1 2007 @ 01:01 PM
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reply to post by MikeboydUS
 



G-d puts enimity between its seed and humanity. Not metaphorical seed remember this is a living creature and so is Adam.


I didn't mean it in a metaphorical way. There is enmity between his seed and the seed of Adam today.

Satan is the serpent of the garden. When it was said of him that he was "more subtil than any beast of the field", perhaps his wisdom was most craftily aided by mankind just seeing what it wishes, the picture of a snake and an apple in the garden. Neither were there. Satan is the serpent, he is the fruit she "took of". The fall of man had to do solely with the Word of God, and is centered in the sin of believing Satan's lie instead of the truth of Father. As it was in the beginning so shall it be in the end.


Leviathan is most assuredly not the Ha Satan of Job. Leviathan is not an angel, not in heaven, and mentioned in Job with no connection even with Satan.


Leviathan #3882 livyathan, a wreathed animal, i.e. a serpent (espec. the crocodile or some other large sea-monster); fig. the constellation of the dragon; also as a symbol of Babylon - leviathan, mourning

There is a connection to Satan, the serpent, the dragon, the one those of Babylon worship.

Isaiah 27:1 In that day the Lord with His sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and He shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

The day spoken of is the Day of The Lord, when Christ returns. Satan, the serpent, the leviathan, the dragon is "in the sea", which means people, as a sea of people. "The whole world will wonder after him".


........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 08:44 AM
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reply to post by whirlwind
 


What do you expect to happen when Jesus returns?



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 10:41 AM
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reply to post by jakyll
 



What do you expect to happen when Jesus returns?


He returns at the 7th trump, 7th vial, 7th seal. Satan preceeded him at the 6th trump, 6th vial, 6th seal = 666. That is all that number means. It tells us when Satan will be here, (Rev.6:12).

At the end of Satan's tribulation (one of love and peace - all deceit) the "two witnesses" (Rev.11:3) which have been prophesying will be killed by "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" (Rev.11:7). Their bodies will lay there, in Jerusalem, for three 1/2 days. Then the "spirit of life from God entered into them" (Rev.11:11) and they ascended to heaven "in a cloud". That is when the true Christ returns, "the same hour" the "seventh angel sounded" (11:15) and "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign forever and ever."

It is no coincidence to me that the great imam Islam is expecting to arrive is said to be coming from a well inside one of the holy mosques. (the bottomless pit?)

Upon His arrival, amidst a great earthquake, "were slain of men seven thousand;" (11:13) The talk of death is usually a spiritual death but here it is a real death. These are the 7,000 fallen angels that have been held in chains. They were released at the beginning of Satan's tribulation and fell to earth (Rev.12:9). They will literally be slain, Satan will not.

Christ arrives (Zech.14:4) "And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst ....". He comes to "judge and make war" (Rev.19:11).

It will be the time for the "cup of wrath" to spill over but how much we experience I don't know. One, those that stayed true and waited for Him, the real Christ, will not receive any wrath. That was His promise. Two, when He arrives we are changed into our spirit bodies so will we experience anything that would only affect flesh?

1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the
trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Satan is thrown in a pit for the millennium. All are judged as far as where they will spend the millennium, either as "priests of God" or those that will be taught during that time. (Rev.20)


.........Whirlwind_



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by whirlwind
 


Only a few lines explain what you think will happen,lol.thats what i wanted,a personal reply,not quotes.sorry for not making myself clear.

I'm just curious y'see.i always think,well someone who has lived a good life,doesn't have a bad bone in their body,but their an atheist.will they suffer?
And if Jesus is going to battle Satan,why does it have to happen on earth,why not in heaven? More importantly,will he really succeed.coz if you look at Jesus' last visit,he failed miserably at converting man into a loving and peaceful creature.instead he left scriptures,some so unclear,that man perverted them for then own ends.the bible says he will,but the bible says a lot of things....also,what will happen to those tribes & peoples of south america,indonesia,mongolia etc,who in this day and age still haven't heard of god almighty and Jesus? and if Jesus is meant to be a figure of peace and non-violence,doesn't it seem strange for him to come back and pass judgement on people in a forceful and violent way? does that not contradict who he is and what he symbolizes?




[edit on 2-9-2007 by jakyll]



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by whirlwind
What are many of our churches teaching now? That we will be raptured away and that teaching goes against everything Jesus told us. There is no rapture.


ASIDE from the rapture theology, they teach, essentially, the VERY SAME superstitious ideas that you are promoting as spiritual fact, on this thread. I hope I do not offend you but that is how I see it, just based on the fact that all of it is the same old blah blah blah that, when really scrutinized, is inconsistent with the bible and in and of itself!


We will be here and most will not be ready for it and will fall for the deceit of Satan.


But if you already have, how would you know? There is no way to truly understand deception until the truth is EXPERIENCED. But those that are convinced that they KNOW, know NOTHING. Those that understand realize that they know very little, if anything at all, and even if that isn't literally true, it speaks more about the attitude of open-mindedness than anything else.

To the expert, there is little possibility. To the beginner, the possibilities are limitless.


That is the strong delusion God sends to see if we have read His letter, to see if the teachers have taught us.


What teachers? There is but ONE teacher.


Do you KNOW anyone that understands things in exactly the same way that you do? NOT believes but understands?

At-one-ment is evidenced by unity in the spirit which is manifested as understanding in concordance without divisions and the strife of trying to prove one's point. And there is a difference between that and the effort of attempting to demonstrate the way.

Psalms 118:8



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by MikeboydUS
 



Taking things out of context in the bible is one problem,the bigger one is mistranslation.I think too many people forget or don't realise that the books in the bible have been translated form different languages.they also don't realise that certain words or phrases in one language can not translate into another,as happens in this day and age.plus,when spending hours copying from one book to another, ts easy to misspell words and not have the correct punctuation.


Excellent post, jakyll! All your posts following this one are excellent! They promote inquiry of the spirit rather than false confidence in your own understanding. I like that.



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 12:08 PM
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Originally posted by whirlwind
I do know that but I also know that God does not contradict Himself.


Well, then, what is the difficulty with just accepting what those verses in Micah say?

I am NOT saying that we are not to follow our G.O.D. (the G.O.D. of Is Real - the LIVING G.O.D.)

What I am saying is that G.O.D. obviously has far more tolerance for things (and no doubt because HE SEES ALL THINGS in the heart of men) than we do!!!


Another scripture that throws up that same flag is Luke 14:26


I don't find any 'red flags' in the scriptures, these days. G.O.D. works them out for me and there is nothing I see in there as contradictory, muddy, or debatable as far as consistency. Anymore, that is.


The puzzle is solved when we go to the same scripture as Luke 14:26, as told in Matthew 10:37


Then COMPARE 1 Chronicles 21:1 with 2 Samuel 24:1.


So...to me, rather than that time being when everyone can following whatever god they choose, it means all will walk the path of our Lord and there will be saints, judges, elect (gods) there to instruct them.


YET that is not what it SAYS nor what it implies. That is what it seems to YOU. It may be true but so far all you seem to be going on is what your own reasoning has formed in order to force understanding (or the idea of understanding.)

It takes time...a LONG time, of intense studying, to get to the underlying unquestionable unity of the biblical message. And it doesn't come by way of human reasoning.



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by whirlwind
Everything associated with it is pure confusion. The Tower of Babel, Baal, Bel - Evil confusion, much, if not all of it Satanic.


Where do you find THAT insinuation? (the evil/satanic part)

What does PURE mean?


From Noah Webster's:


Pure
PURE, a. [L. purus.]

1. Separate from all heterogeneous or extraneous matter; clear; free from mixture; as pure water; pure clay; pure sand; pure air; pure silver of gold.
Pure wine is very scare.
2. Free from moral defilement; without spot; not sullied or tarnished; uncorrupted; not debased by moral turpitude; holy.
Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil. Hab 1. Prov 20.
3. Genuine; real; true; uncorrupted; unadulterated; as pure religion. James 1.
4. Unmixed; separate from any other subject or from every thing foreign; as pure mathematics.
5. Free from guilt; guiltless; innocent.
No hand of strife is pure, but that which wins.
6. Not vitiated with improper or corrupt words or phrases; as a pure style of discourse or composition.
7. Disinterested; as pure benevolence.
8. Chaste; as a pure virgin.
9. Free from vice or moral turpitude. Titus 1.
10. Ceremonially clean; unpolluted. Ezra 6.
11. Free from any thing improper; as, his motives are pure.
12. Mere; absolute; that and that only; unconnected with any thing else; as a pure villain.
He did that from pure compassion, or pure good nature.

PURE, v.t. To purify; to cleanse. [Not in use.]


'Pure confusion' is an OXYMORON.


----------------------

Hitchcock’s Bible Names:


Babel
confusion; mixture
(same as Babylon)


Easton’s:


Babel, Tower of
The name given to the tower which the primitive fathers of our race built in the land of Shinar after the Deluge (Gen 11:1-9). Their object in building this tower was probably that it might be seen as a rallying-point in the extensive plain of Shinar, to which they had emigrated from the uplands of Armenia, and so prevent their being scattered abroad. But God interposed and defeated their design by confounding their language, and hence the name Babel, meaning “confusion.” In the Babylonian tablets there is an account of this event, and also of the creation and the deluge. (See CHALDEA.)
The Temple of Belus, which is supposed to occupy its site, is described by the Greek historian Herodotus as a temple of great extent and magnificence, erected by the Babylonians for their god Belus. The treasures Nebuchadnezzar brought from Jerusalem were laid up in this temple (2Ch 36:7).
The Birs Nimrud, at ancient Borsippa, about 7 miles south-west of Hillah, the modern town which occupies a part of the site of ancient Babylon, and 6 miles from the Euphrates, is an immense mass of broken and fire-blasted fragments, of about 2,300 feet in circumference, rising suddenly to the height of 235 feet above the desert-plain, and is with probability regarded as the ruins of the tower of Babel. This is “one of the most imposing ruins in the country.” Others think it to be the ruins of the Temple of Belus.


Nave’s Topics:


Babel
A city in the plain of Shinar.
Tower built, and tongues confused at Gen 11:1-9
See Babylon


Smith’s:


Babel
Ba'bel. (confusion). Bab'ylon, (Greek form of Babel), is properly the capital city of the country, which is called in Genesis, Shinar, and in the later books, Chaldea, or the land of the Chaldeans. The first rise of the Chaldean power was in the region close upon the Persian Gulf; thence, the nation spread northward up the course of the rivers, and the seat of government moved in the same direction, being finally fixed at Babylon, perhaps not earlier than B.C, 1700.


Noah Webster’s:


Babel
BA'BEL, n. [Heb.] Confusion; disorder.


Strong’s:


H894
From H1101; confusion; Babel (that is, Babylon), including Babylonia and the Babylonian empire: - Babel, Babylon.


Brown-Driver-Briggs:


H894
BDB Definition:

Babel or Babylon = “confusion (by mixing)
1) Babel or Babylon, the ancient site and/or capital of Babylonia (modern Hillah) situated on the Euphrates
Part of Speech: noun proper locative
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H1101
Same Word by TWOT Number: 197



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by whirlwind
Those that don't teach rapture also don't teach what to expect in the end of days.


What should we expect?

Jeremiah 29:11.

PEACE



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by whirlwind
 



Only a few lines explain what you think will happen,lol.thats what i wanted,a personal reply,not quotes.sorry for not making myself clear.


I can tell you, in a personal way, what I believe will happen but then why should you believe me? Everything you are taught should be substantiated in the Word of God - everything. He is the one you should listen to, not me or anyone else.


I'm just curious y'see.i always think,well someone who has lived a good life,doesn't have a bad bone in their body,but their an atheist.will they suffer?


God tells us that we shouldn't judge - "Judge not that ye be not judged'" (Mt.7:1), so I don't know what will happen to that person. He also tells us that the only way to the Father is through the Son, belief in the Son. It is that person's choice, just as it is yours or mine.

Matthew 10:32-33
"Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I
confess also before My Father which is in heaven.
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not
to send peace but a sword.



And if Jesus is going to battle Satan,why does it have to happen on earth,why not in heaven? More importantly,will he really succeed.coz if you look at Jesus' last visit,he failed miserably at converting man into a loving and peaceful creature.instead he left scriptures,some so unclear,that man perverted them for then own ends.the bible says he will,but the bible says a lot of things....also,what will happen to those tribes & peoples of south america,indonesia,mongolia etc,who in this day and age still haven't heard of god almighty and Jesus?


Jesus battles here because this is where He will be. He will rule here, on earth. The battle is because of us, for us, God's children. There are also battles in heaven. "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels."(Rev.12:7)

Of course He will really succeed and many of us will help. It is our destiny as a Christian, the reason we were born into this world when we were.

Jesus DID NOT FAIL miserably. He didn't come here to bring peace but to defeat death - He did. Because He died for our sins we can, with repentance, be forgiven and have eternal life with Him. He did teach that we should be loving and peaceful but you must realize we aren't in heaven yet. Before there can be a heaven on earth full of peace and love those that will not accept God or God's ways will be weeded out. Again - their choice.

Those that have not heard of Christ will be judged on the type of life they did live. Nature itself tells one what is right or wrong.

Rom.4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.


and if Jesus is meant to be a figure of peace and non-violence,doesn't it seem strange for him to come back and pass judgement on people in a forceful and violent way? does that not contradict who he is and what he symbolizes?




I've shown where He isn't supposed to be a figure of peace and non-violence. That is the goal but it can't happen yet. Every chance is given to those He "passes judgement on in a forceful and violent way" and is not at all contradictory. He first came in the form of a babe. He next comes on a white horse with eyes as a flame of fire, with a sword, clothed with vesture dipped in blood with armies. "He shall rule with a rod of iron and He treadeth the winepress of the fiereceness and wrath of Almighty God." (Rev.19:11-15)

It's not a game.


...........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 03:03 PM
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reply to post by whirlwind
 


It doesn't matter if i believe your personal view or not.I'm not one to make fun of someone's faith.I just find all the different version's people have interesting.

The coming of Christ sounds like it'll be a time of great upheavel.I've debated with people many times that maybe the book of revelations is talking about the end of one of earth's cycle and the starting of another.the Mayan's had that belief.that the earth had been destroyed and reborn several times,and the cycle we're in now is due to end in 2012.(as mentioned earlier in the thread,words and ideas can be used as metaphors again and again.)
Its a known fact that this has happened before.people rant about global warming now,but fail to understand that about 16,000 yrs ago the ice caps started to melt.from the second that happened this planet started getting warmer.(man=250yrs pollution on global scale.nature=15,750yrs of pollution.)anyways.we know there has been more than one ice age.we know that there was a global flood as described in the bible.evidence for this can be found in many places around the world and is in the history and mythology of many peoples.they differ only in date.we know what the earth and nature are capable of.the planet is alive,it lives on cycles,probably always has and always will.you get yearly forest fires,floods,earthquakes,sand storms etc.they are nothing new.

so,when it comes to that big global upheavel,is it nature doing what she has always done? or is it god making sure his prophesies are fulfilled?



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 03:06 PM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 


Many thanks

I like your posts too.very knowlededgeble and always backed up with plenty of information.



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 03:14 PM
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You do realize Lucifer is a Roman deity. I'll repeat a Roman deity. We might as well start translating everything as the name of Roman gods if we go along with that rediculous idea. Its Helel and only Helel. Helel is not a Roman god

What don't you get? it's not about other god names, it's about translation.
If your name was sparky in hebrew, then that is your name, translated in english it means just that , sparky.
It was translated in latin simply because it needed a latin name and everything that was translated was done properly.

The original text in the bible referes to hellel and in stead of the translation in english or latin you get the name hellel that apears in the original version of the bible that is untranslated, you can check it if you wish.


In latin:
quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes.


As it was in hebrew:

"Isaiah 14:12 (KJV with Hebrew) 'How art thou fallen from heaven, O Helel, son of Shahar! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations.






. Helel is not even a god. Helel is a man who wants to be a god, thus by calling him Lucifer youve fulfilled his desire by making him into a Roman god.

A man
?

Seems you got to review your statement.
From the jews:

www.whiterosesgarden.com/Nature_of_Evil/fallen_angels/FAngels_G-H/helel.htm




Helel - In Canaanitish mythology, a fallen angel, son of Sahar or Sharer, a winged deity. Helel sought to usurp the throne of the chief god and, as punishment, was cast down into the abyss. Cf. the Lucifer legend. The 1st star to fall from Heaven (Enoch I, 86:1) was Satan-Helel. This is an interpretation offered by Morgenstern, "The Mythological Background of Psalm 82" (Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion Annual XIV, pp. 29-126). However, in his Fallen Angels, Bamberger argues: "The more natural explanation is that the 1st star [that fell] was Azazel." Helel was head or leader of the nephilim (q.v.). Generally speaking, angels can have no offspring, since they are pure spirits; but when angels sin, when they "put on the corruptibility of the flesh" and cohabit with mortal women, they are capable of producing progeny. A case in point is the incident in Genesis 6. In the cabala and rabbinic lore there are numerous instances of such heteroclitish productivity. [Rf. Graves and Patai, Hebrew Myths.] (a)


It's him alright, seems familiar ?







I'll have to agree to disgree over the Helel is Satan assertion which I have already shown why I do not agree, but Please stop calling a figure from the a Bible by the name of a Roman divinity.

I proved you wrong.
Hellel in latin is translated lucifer.
It's as simple as that, because that is what it means.


[edit on 2-9-2007 by pepsi78]

[edit on 2-9-2007 by pepsi78]



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 03:24 PM
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reply to post by pepsi78
 


Welcome to the debate.

I'm guessing you haven't read the whole thread,or there are things mentioned you've just totally ignored?

Lucifer is actually a name for Jesus,he even calls himself that.

""""I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.""""" (Revelation 22:16)



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 03:38 PM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 


ASIDE from the rapture theology, they teach, essentially, the VERY SAME superstitious ideas that you are promoting as spiritual fact, on this thread. I hope I do not offend you but that is how I see it, just based on the fact that all of it is the same old blah blah blah that, when really scrutinized, is inconsistent with the bible and in and of itself!


No offense taken but I would appreciate you're telling me what "susperstitious ideas I'm promoting as spiritual fact". What have I said that is "inconsistent with the Bible". I'm being very careful to only quote scripture so I don't understand why you say that.


"We will be here and most will not be ready for it and will fall for the deceit of Satan".....But if you already have, how would you know? There is no way to truly understand deception until the truth is EXPERIENCED. But those that are convinced that they KNOW, know NOTHING. Those that understand realize that they know very little, if anything at all, and even if that isn't literally true, it speaks more about the attitude of open-mindedness than anything else.


The "way you would know", would be to read His letter before it happens. Read and heed His warnings so you do not fall for the deceit. You are right in saying that those that "understand realize that they know very little" and for that reason they continue to search and study. As the following verse shows, the more you study the more He opens scripture to you. One should be open-minded enough to receive all of God's Word, all we are capable of at the time it is given, but not so open we allow the ideas of man in.

Matthew 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.


"That is the strong delusion God sends to see if we have read His letter, to see if the teachers have taught us.".....What teachers? There is but ONE teacher.


He sent His prophets to us and we learn from them. His priests, preachers, reverends, etc. are also to be our teachers. Some are, some are not. The only safe guard we have is to compare what they teach against His Word.


Do you KNOW anyone that understands things in exactly the same way that you do? NOT believes but understands?


Yes. But does that make me right or wrong, no matter who does or does not understand as I do? Again, the only safe guard is to check each person's words against God's.


At-one-ment is evidenced by unity in the spirit which is manifested as understanding in concordance without divisions and the strife of trying to prove one's point. And there is a difference between that and the effort of attempting to demonstrate the way....Psalms 118:8


Ps.118:8 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in man.

Yes it is and to do that one must compare man's word against that of God, which is what I have been saying. One should not try to prove their point but rather prove what God states.

......Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 03:57 PM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 


Originally posted by whirlwind...I do know that but I also know that God does not contradict Himself.



Well, then, what is the difficulty with just accepting what those verses in Micah say?


Micah 4:4 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God forever and ever.

To accept the verse as you say it should, that everyone will be able to follow their own religion, their own gods, would be to throw away all the other teachings of God about that very subject.

From the beginning to the very end of the Bible He tells us that He is God, He is the only God to be loved and worshipped. He is a jealous God. Have no other gods before Me......Those that do not make it to the right side in the first judgement of Christ do not because they followed another god - Satan.


I am NOT saying that we are not to follow our G.O.D. (the G.O.D. of Is Real - the LIVING G.O.D.)....What I am saying is that G.O.D. obviously has far more tolerance for things (and no doubt because HE SEES ALL THINGS in the heart of men) than we do!!!


Yes and He warns us about following any other god. He tells us He will not be tolerant about breaking that commandment.


I don't find any 'red flags' in the scriptures, these days. G.O.D. works them out for me and there is nothing I see in there as contradictory, muddy, or debatable as far as consistency. Anymore, that is.


Then you are blessed. I found the Micah 4:5 scripture to be very contradictory.


Then COMPARE 1 Chronicles 21:1 with 2 Samuel 24:1.


I compared and I find them to also be contradictory. What about you?


"So...to me, rather than that time being when everyone can following whatever god they choose, it means all will walk the path of our Lord and there will be saints, judges, elect (gods) there to instruct them."....YET that is not what it SAYS nor what it implies. That is what it seems to YOU. It may be true but so far all you seem to be going on is what your own reasoning has formed in order to force understanding (or the idea of understanding.)


I don't agree. As I said, it sent up a red flag to me and I found (I believe) the answer in God's Word, not my reasoning, but His.


It takes time...a LONG time, of intense studying, to get to the underlying unquestionable unity of the biblical message. And it doesn't come by way of human reasoning


I agree, it comes by way of His Word and the Holy Spirit.


.......Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 04:50 PM
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Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by pepsi78
 


Welcome to the debate.

I'm guessing you haven't read the whole thread,or there are things mentioned you've just totally ignored?

Lucifer is actually a name for Jesus,he even calls himself that.

""""I am the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.""""" (Revelation 22:16)


But his name is not morning star.
As saying I'm something, I look like a butercup is something and your name being actuly buttercup that is a totaly different thing.

Any way totaly off my quoting, I just wanted to explain what is the connection to the name lucifer, and why it was translated this way.
Because it was translated for a reason.
Can you understand or not, his name is lucifer hellel in hebrew, that is his name, it's not a meaning of somethign but an actual name, if you can understand that then you can figure it out.

It's something to say , I'm a light pole, and another thing when your name is actualy Light Pole.
It's not about what representation it has, it's about the simple fact that it's a name, if your name is big bear? it does not mean you're a bear, but it is your name so people will call you big bear.





I just explained to you why satan has the name of lucifer, it's a matter of a simple translation from hebrew to latin.
Morning star, light , lighting shining, are not bad or negative words, but if your name is that, then that is your name, the morning star is shiny, it's a beauty, there is nothing bad about it, so jesus chose a representation , but from that to my name is morning star it's a big difference, because jesus does not go by that name in saying my name is that.
while on the other side there is an actual caracter that does go by that name, it's his name, like your name is george or something his name is hellel.


As for thetranslation, you can check it out, and you can also check out the name reference in a untranslated bible and see that the name hellel apears in that passage, it's an actual name of a character, some as an argument would say it was the king of babylong but since there is no king that go's by the name of hellel it;s clear.

Saying that jesus is called morning star is sily, it;s a representation, but not an actual name, while lucifer is an actual name of a character.
Jessus said I'm the morning star , not .....my name is morning star.





[edit on 2-9-2007 by pepsi78]



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