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Satan is not Lucifer.

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posted on Sep, 5 2007 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by whirlwind
There is a truth to God's Word. There may be different levels of understanding to that truth but it is truth nevertheless.


That’s exactly what I meant when I mentioned ‘mile-markers.’ It is more like the truth is the very core and we are all working our way from the outer deceptive layers down toward the root truth.


What you say I am STUCK in I believe is truth.


Yes, I realize that. But are you so convinced that there is no truth deeper that you are becoming attached to your beliefs? Many people do; they misunderstand the difference between believing and being faithful. Being faithful means remaining loyal to God. Believing is subject to revision and change as we learn more and more. That is, if we don’t get ourselves in a rut of belief – for myself, personally, I have found a few ‘cornerstones’ of belief that have not changed. Not that I expect you to adopt anything that I say I have discovered; but I will tell you what they are so that you understand what I mean:

God is love.
God is more powerful than all other things.
With God, all things are possible.
God intends not to lose a single soul.
God keeps ALL His promises.
God does all things for our good.


When I hear another idea put forth I consider it. Does it align with His Word? If it does I study and reconsider. I am open to that.


But how will you truly know if you do not reconsider FIRST and THEN study? There is nothing wrong with questioning all things that you hear. God will not let you be led astray if you trust Him.


The problem I am having here is that you say, "That's a tradition of man, not true, it didn't mean that, mistranslation, etc." but you don't give a corrected version.


I say, over and over, trust the Spirit – do not trust a (hu)man. Well I am a human, too. I don’t expect you to listen to me over what the Spirit will reveal. I will tell you what it DOES NOT say – and only because from my own studying I have found that every time I tried to find actual proof for the many standard Christian teachings in the bible, I found exactly the opposite.

You can approach it various ways: from the idea that you are going to prove the opposite – or prove that what you believe IS in there in black and white – or try to go beyond the usual verses that most give in support of various commonly accepted ideas. Regardless, if you truly wish to find the TRUTH according to God, you will find it. And it is nothing like what we start out with.

The only way you will believe the amazing truth is if God shows you – He can convince you. I won’t even try. I am only trying to stir you up a bit so that maybe you will question.


Yes, that is true but I would add to that the necessity of doing what we can to bring others to that same point.


That is exactly why I’m harping on you so much. I am so glad that you have not gotten offended or defensive because truly I would not be debating for so long if I didn’t think that you weren’t of the same heart as I.


I disagree. We all have the ability to find the truth but not all of us have that truth yet. Perhaps we aren't supposed to but instead stay on a path to learn that truth all our lives. I don't know....


Exactly. But we can hinder ourselves. And I do believe (and hope) that learning about God has no end!!


Then you must be more explicit in pointing them out. What are they? Where did I not use the bible to support what I have said? What are the ABC's of your understanding of the topics we have discussed?


I have already posted those kinds of things but I will go back, in a bit, and point a couple of them out.


Of course His love is perfect but there are conditions and He tells us what they are. He doesn't leave our salvation to chance.


EXACTLY. That is why He made it fool-proof. With Jesus.


Deu.7:9


Even though the OT is just as educational as the NT, you must remember that the days of Jesus were far removed from the days of Moses. His anger is not forever:


For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.
~ Isaiah 10:25


He has reconciled us to Him – usually reconciliation requires the active participation of TWO parties, but God took care of BOTH sides for us!


2 Corinthians 5:
~ 18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
~ 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
~ 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
~ 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.



There are "If's" attached to His promises. If we follow His commandments, If we repent, If we believe in His Son......


In the end, the ‘if’s’ will be all taken care of:


The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
~ 2 Peter 3:9


All WILL come to repentance. If God says so, then it will be.


The idea of punishment is so often just assumed to be CAPITAL punishment; however it is for our own sakes that we are ‘punished.’ It is not toward death but toward life. And in opposition to punishment, there is reward:


If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
~ 1 Corinthians 3:14-15


Regardless of loss or reward, all souls will be saved!


In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
~ Revelation 22:2-3


There is an inside and an outside, in the New Jerusalem. And the ‘nations’ will be outside but yet they will be healed.

To get in, one must simply follow His commandments.


Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
~ John 14:23-24


The sermon on the mount says it all. Matthew chapters 5 – 7.


Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
~ Revelation 22:14-15


If we do our best to love one another the same as ourselves, then we will be shown the truth. That is TRULY all it takes. And while it is extremely hard to do such a thing, the starting point is judgment. Judge NOT. This INCLUDES angels and men.


Jude 1:
~ 8
Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
~ 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
~ 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.


Regardless of how much it seems someone is a ‘sinner’ or 'evil' or whatever, judge them not. Understand that not only does God love them the same as He loves you, just as you have had reasons and circumstances leading you to do things that you wish you had not done, etc., SO DOES everyone else!

Once you realize that God is no respecter of persons, you begin to understand what it means to respect all persons equally. Including yourself.




posted on Sep, 5 2007 @ 07:01 PM
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reply to post by MikeboydUS
 



What an interesting topic and one I have spent much time researching, just thought I would add my two cents on the fiery serpent topic, I have enjoyed Mike's posts.

Antique worm



This nematode has been found in Egyptian mummies and was known as a parasite of humans about 1530 B.C. It is thought that the fiery serpent on the end of Moses's stick, which plagued the Israellites by the Red Sea in the Biblical story was really Dracunculus. The disease they caused was recognized and named Drancunculiasis by Galen. In the 2nd century BC, the Greek writer Agatharchides described this affliction as being endemic amongst certain nomads in what is now Sudan and along the Red Sea.


everything2.com...

prim8.org...

6Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people. 8The Lord said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

I have been looking into the boundry stones, of Babylon and Sumeria.


www.thunderbolts.info/.../041110one-story.htm

I haven't seen the Yezidi mentioned yet.



posted on Sep, 5 2007 @ 07:17 PM
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reply to post by jakyll
 



What would you say to a man who has lost his faith because his wife and 4yr old daughter were raped and murdered? (was in a magazine recently.)would you look this man in the eye and say that it was god's will,that his wife and daughter had be chosen to be god's lil sunbeams? would you say that he was now destined to be condemned for his loss of faith?


No, I would not say that. What a terrible situation. In the worst of times faith can be your only comfort. If one can maintain their faith they would know that their loved ones were now with God. They wouldn't blame Him for what one driven by evil had done. It isn't God's fault that person did what he did but it may be the fault of a judge or jury that allowed him out of jail or a death penalty because of ill placed liberal thoughts. If a previous crime had been committed that person should have paid with his life for a murder or rape. Those are God's laws, God's penalties for those crimes. If we carried that out many innocent lives would have been spared. Would that make the man experiencing the loss feel better - No, I don't think so........How very terrible this life can be at times.


God must have many laws on which to judge people by,it can't all be black and white.just because you believe it may not be an automatic ticket to heaven.You may find yourself in a different place coz,yeah you have the faith,but you've done sod all with your life,you've wasted a gift from god!


I think it takes more than just faith Jakyll.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15.If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16.And one of you say unto them, "Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled: "not withstanding ye give them not those thing which are needful to the body: what doth it profit?

17.Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

22.Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?



...........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 5 2007 @ 07:22 PM
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it's possible that the “fiery serpents” were as symbolic as much as literal. The Hebrew word for “fiery serpent” is saraph which means not only “serpent” and “burn” but is also the root word for seraphim a type of angel (also related to cherubim). “Flying” saraphs may then perhaps refer to the belief that seraphim had wings. Among those believed to be seraphim is Satan (Encyclopedia Mythica.) Lucifer, of course, is also depicted as a serpent in the Garden of Eden. A “fiery” angel may also be analogous to an “angel of light.” All scriptures mentioning an “angel of light” (2 Corin. 11:14; 2 Nephi 9:9; D&C 128:20; D&C 128:8) refer to Satan. It's possible that the “fiery serpents” symbolized the spiritual death that follows the sting of Satan's bite (the Israelites, of course, were struggling with sin). The effects of sin can be “fiery” to the soul.


www.pantheon.org...

I don't believe in a literal satan, yet if god gave positions to his creating angels, they never leave those positions, satan would always be there to tempt us to do that which is unrighteous, satan cannot leave his position, he would neither be good, nor evil but will always be the hinderer, a job to do not unlike Judas,,yet the creator made us so much more, as to be able to overcome evil, with will and conscience.

Mankind is just attempting to understand mankind.



posted on Sep, 5 2007 @ 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by MikeboydUS
 



What an interesting topic and one I have spent much time researching, just thought I would add my two cents on the fiery serpent topic, I have enjoyed Mike's posts.

Antique worm



This nematode has been found in Egyptian mummies and was known as a parasite of humans about 1530 B.C. It is thought that the fiery serpent on the end of Moses's stick, which plagued the Israellites by the Red Sea in the Biblical story was really Dracunculus. The disease they caused was recognized and named Drancunculiasis by Galen. In the 2nd century BC, the Greek writer Agatharchides described this affliction as being endemic amongst certain nomads in what is now Sudan and along the Red Sea.


everything2.com...

prim8.org...

6Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people. 8The Lord said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

I have been looking into the boundry stones, of Babylon and Sumeria.


www.thunderbolts.info/.../041110one-story.htm

I haven't seen the Yezidi mentioned yet.






That was really interesting. I havnt seen the worms idea before. Thanks.

Are refering to the Melek Taus when you mentioned the Yezidi?



posted on Sep, 5 2007 @ 07:38 PM
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Are refering to the Melek Taus when you mentioned the Yezidi?


Yes.


And the boundry stones, do you know much about them and how they might tie into the big picture?
www.quantumuniverse.co.za...

And about the divine council,

www.thedivinecouncil.com...

I had just stumbled upon that site last week, odd.


[edit on 5-9-2007 by Stormdancer777]



posted on Sep, 5 2007 @ 08:05 PM
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I don't know how far to take this exactly, but I thought I might post some info that might help,
Ancient spell may be oldest Semitic text By LAURIE COPANS, Associated Press Writer
Tue Jan 23, 6:42 PM ET
news.yahoo.com...

A magic spell to keep snakes away from the tombs of Egyptian kings,




The Semitic language of these texts that have now been deciphered was a very archaic form of the languages later known as Phoenician and Hebrew



posted on Sep, 5 2007 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by Stormdancer777


Are refering to the Melek Taus when you mentioned the Yezidi?


Yes.


And the boundry stones, do you know much about them and how they might tie into the big picture?
www.quantumuniverse.co.za...

And about the divine council,

www.thedivinecouncil.com...

I had just stumbled upon that site last week, odd.


[edit on 5-9-2007 by Stormdancer777]


The Divine Council appears to be a good site. Ive been reading over it and I like alot of the info on it.

I dont have much info on the boundary stones. If you could elaborate that would be great. Thanks.



posted on Sep, 5 2007 @ 08:32 PM
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reply to post by Stormdancer777
 


Yuck! Very, very interesting, though. But gross. How awful. Thank you for the information - there seems to be a lot of similarities, as you said.



posted on Sep, 5 2007 @ 10:28 PM
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I want to look further into the boundry stones before I post anything,but I think they may tell a story.

Have you considered Enlil?




In ancient Sumero-Babylonian myth, Enlil ("lord wind") is the god of air, wind and storms. Enlil is the foremost god of the Mesopotamian pantheon, and is sometimes referred to as Kur-Gal ("great mountain"). In the Sumerian cosmology he was born of the union of An heaven and Ki earth. These he separated, and he carried off the earth as his portion. In later times he supplanted Anu as chief god. His consort is Ninlil with whom he has five children: Nanna, Nerigal, Ningirsu, Ninurta, and Nisaba.





Enlil holds possession of the Tablets of Destiny which gives him power over the entire cosmos and the affairs of man. He is sometimes friendly towards mankind, but can also be a stern and even cruel god who punishes man and sends forth disasters, such as the great Flood which wiped out humanity with the exception of Atrahasis. Enlil is portrayed wearing a crown with horns, symbol of his power. His most prestigious temple was in the city Nippur, and he was the patron of that city. His equivalent is the Akkadian god Ellil.


www.laputanlogic.com/

Notice in Eph. 2:2, satan is refered to as the prince of the power of the air, as Enlil ("lord wind") is the god of air?

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

When you think of Enki and Enlil what do you see?

Jesus says,
John 8:44
(KJV)

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

A murderer from the beginning?

But who did he murder?

Was he Enlil who destroyed the Igigi with the flood?

And was Enki the saviour?

www.ancientworlds.net...






[edit on 5-9-2007 by Stormdancer777]



posted on Sep, 5 2007 @ 10:30 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
reply to post by Stormdancer777
 


Yuck! Very, very interesting, though. But gross. How awful. Thank you for the information - there seems to be a lot of similarities, as you said.



Yes yucky,



posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 12:24 AM
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stormdancer777 - thank YOU for the link to the website of Michael S. Heiser, PhD!

I downloaded all the PDF's and have read at least 3 of them already; they are excellent and totally scholastic in their approach.

Anyone interested in the issues discussed in this thread should really consider reading them; some if not all. They are not long to read or to download nor are they hard to understand.

--------------------

When you talk of boundary stones, do you mean of the sort called 'Kudurru?'

--------------------

And about Enki and Enlil?!?!

'Bel'/'Baal' really just means 'lord' and so when the Sumerian texts were written, it would seem that Enlil had already usurped his father, Anu; or at least there was a schism between the heavens (Anu) and the Earth (Enlil). But since it was Enki who was the guardian of the me's, it would seem that truly Enki/Ea had the ultimate say-so. And he, of course, gave them up to Inanna.

So...there would come a day, upon Inanna's return to the land of the living, that then SHE would be 'Bel.'

Even though it is believed that Enlil was the god of the winds, it is Enki who possessed the storm-bird, Zu. And storms overcome the regularly blowing winds. IOW, Enki's command over the environment exceeded that of Enlil's. It might even be that, due to earlier mistranslations of ancient language, that the title Bel belongs to whomever is in ultimate command of the forces. While Inanna was 'dead' then Enlil no doubt assumed that power and Enki allowed it (since Enki is too wise to fight over something already divinely decreed and set in irreversible motion, that is, the possession of the me is the ultimate royal sceptre). The bigger they are, the harder they fall.


In Enki is the key.

The key to life (AKA the keys to death and the grave) - at least it was for his sister, Inanna - the 'original resurrected god-man'.


Enki
In Key
The Key of Hermes
Her me's



posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 02:14 AM
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Just as ‘I AM’ (I absolutely dislike the term ‘Yahweh’ – its not even a real word, really, and certainly not the name of the most high GOD) is GOD of gods, so do we read the similar idea of KING of kings. In the KJV, the term (rendered melek melek in the Hebrew and basileus basileus in the Greek) is found only 6 times:


Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.
~Ezra 7:12

For thus said the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.
~Ezekiel 26:7

You, O king, are a king of kings: for the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
~Daniel 2:37

Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
~1 Timothy 6:15

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
~Revelation 17:14

And he has on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
~Revelation 19:16


Now, when Artaxerxes dictates to Ezra, he is self-proclaiming. Throw that one out.
As concerning THIS study, anyway. The return from exile is whole other thread, altogether.


The rest, however, are either talking about Nebuchadnezzar (OT) or the returning Messiah (NT). In the OT, it is just KING of kings, but in the NT, the phrase LORD of lords is also included (kurios kurios) which essentially means, supreme controller/magistrate.

In addition, Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar that he has been given ‘a kingdom, power, strength, and glory’ by the God of heaven

The last line of the Lord’s prayer:


And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
~ Matthew 6:13


Excepting strength, that is. But, in the book of Revelation, immediately following Michael’s battle with the great dragon, we read:


And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
~ Revelation 12:10


There is the ‘missing’ strength!

Furthermore, when we go back to Daniel and read about Nebuchadnezzar’s first dream, the one with the composite statue which is crushed by the rock hewn from a mountain without hands, Daniel tells Neb that HE is the head of gold and also that the kingdom(s) shall be broken/shattered into pieces.
(Chapter 2:38-45)

We find the same imagery in Revelation:


And he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
~ Revelation 2:26-27


And what does verse 28 say?


And I will give him the morning star.
~ Revelation 2:28


And both are in the second chapter of their respective books.

The head of gold:


The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
~ Psalms 118:22


Jesus reiterates this in all 3 synoptic gospels. And Peter also mentions this in his first letter:


Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: where unto also they were appointed.
~ 1 Peter 2:7-8


Then he mentions this:


Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
~ 1 Peter 2:12


Evildoers?

Just prior, Peter writes:


To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
~ 1 Peter 2:4


Disallowed of men?

There is just one HEAD. Just one kingdom. One KING of kings. Both Daniel and Ezekiel called Nebuchadnezzar KING of kings. Would either one of them lie or be misled by God? Certainly Daniel, in particular, would not say this to the very same King before whose idol, he, Daniel himself, and his three comrades, REFUSED to bow!

Or is perhaps the idea of Nebuchadnezzar being an example of evil and of ‘the accuser’ far from the truth? It would be a very offensive idea to many that God might restore Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylon.

Yet Nebuchadnezzar repented! And therefore he was washed of his pride and realized just WHO was in charge. Because of that, he was much like Job: his ‘after’ more glorious than ‘before’ chastisement.

Who is accusing Nebuchadnezzar of evildoing? Who rejects and disallows Nebuchadnezzar? Everyone but God. The Jews did, the Christians do…but God’s thoughts are not men’s thoughts.



posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 08:02 AM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 


WW - What you say I am STUCK in I believe is truth.

QA 38 - Yes, I realize that. But are you so convinced that there is no truth deeper that you are becoming attached to your beliefs? Many people do; they misunderstand the difference between believing and being faithful.


Of course there is a deeper truth to beliefs and for that reason I continue to study. However, there will always remain a basic truth no matter what depth of understanding is achieved. What we are taught, whether by man or spirit, what we read, interpret, etc. must agree with His Word or it should be questioned.

Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Although this was taught when He was warning about the events in the end of days (which I beleive we are in) I believe it also means that He told us in the Bible the truth of things and we will find the truth there.

An example would be reincarnation. There is no reincarnation because He told us: Heb.9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: I believe that. In these flesh bodies we will experience life one time. However, a deeper understanding of His Word tells us that there was an age before this one and our souls, the same souls we are now, were living in that age but we were not in flesh. We know that we will be in the next age in a spirit body so I assume we were as that in the first age.


WW - When I hear another idea put forth I consider it. Does it align with His Word? If it does I study and reconsider. I am open to that.

QA 38 - But how will you truly know if you do not reconsider FIRST and THEN study? There is nothing wrong with questioning all things that you hear. God will not let you be led astray if you trust Him.


It could be done either way, as I said when I hear it I consider it. The deciding factor isn't if I study before or after but if it aligns.


WW - The problem I am having here is that you say, "That's a tradition of man, not true, it didn't mean that, mistranslation, etc." but you don't give a corrected version.

QA 38 - I say, over and over, trust the Spirit – do not trust a (hu)man. Well I am a human, too. I don’t expect you to listen to me over what the Spirit will reveal. The only way you will believe the amazing truth is if God shows you – He can convince you.


I do trust the Spirit and I do see amazing truths. The difference in what is contained in His Word and what is taught in some churches is unbelievable and shameful. Please realize that I am able to "trust the Spirit" because He opens understanding of His Word. He verifies His Word. He does not take me away from that and if He did I would question who that spirit was.

So...When you ask me to "trust the Spirit" I will and do but I believe it is necessary for you to give me your understanding of scripture if you disagree with mine. It isn't enough, for me, to simply say my understanding is wrong. The Spirit may speak to you in a different manner but to me it is through the Word.


........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 08:14 AM
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reply to post by whirlwind
 


Aye,life can be that.

Sorry for having a rant at you mate,i kinda went off on one,lol.its just that i know people who would say such things to that man.they would tell him to find his faith again or he'll be doomed.it just boggles the mind!



posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 08:23 AM
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reply to post by Stormdancer777
 


Haven't got round to looking at them all yet,but thanks for the links!



posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 10:50 AM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 


WW - Of course His love is perfect but there are conditions and He tells us what they are. He doesn't leave our salvation to chance.

QA 38 - EXACTLY. That is why He made it fool-proof. With Jesus.
(Deu.7:9) Even though the OT is just as educational as the NT, you must remember that the days of Jesus were far removed from the days of Moses. His anger is not forever:

For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.
~ Isaiah 10:25

He has reconciled us to Him – usually reconciliation requires the active participation of TWO parties, but God took care of BOTH sides for us!

2 Corinthians 5:
~ 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
~ 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
~ 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
~ 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Jesus is our way, His anger is not forever, we are reconciled to Him through Christ - by there are still great big IF'S. There are still requirements. To simply say He has taken care of everything for the salvation of our souls is too simplistic. He has paved the way and made it possible but we must still open that door. That is our part.


WW - There are "If's" attached to His promises. If we follow His commandments, If we repent, If we believe in His Son......

QA 38 - In the end, the ‘if’s’ will be all taken care of:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
~ 2 Peter 3:9

All WILL come to repentance. If God says so, then it will be.


He didn't say All Will Come To Repentance but that He is willing for that to happen. The very next verse warns that, "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;..... and that (11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness. (14.) Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless. (17)We therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness

There is only so much time for the "If's" to be followed.


QA 38 - The idea of punishment is so often just assumed to be CAPITAL punishment; however it is for our own sakes that we are ‘punished.’ It is not toward death but toward life. And in opposition to punishment, there is reward: ~ 1 Corinthians 3:14-15...Regardless of loss or reward, all souls will be saved!


Yes, I agree, but where will they "be saved" and for how long?


In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
~ Revelation 22:2-3

There is an inside and an outside, in the New Jerusalem. And the ‘nations’ will be outside but yet they will be healed. To get in, one must simply follow His commandments.


Yes, but Rev.22 is during the eternity, not the millennium. Those that did not accept Christ are not part of the Nations, that are on the outside, but they are no more. They are gone, finished, thrown in the lake of fire.

At the end of the millennium - Rev.20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Then the eternity begins! As far as the nations being healed, yes they are but they do not "get in".

Ez.47:5. Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over. However, the kings and queens of those nations do come to the city:

Rev.21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
26.And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.



[QA 38 - The sermon on the mount says it all. Matthew chapters 5 – 7.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
~ Revelation 22:14-15


The "dogs, sorcerers, etc." were done away with at the end of the millennium - their choice. They are not standing outside the gates, they are gone.


If we do our best to love one another the same as ourselves, then we will be shown the truth. That is TRULY all it takes. And while it is extremely hard to do such a thing, the starting point is judgment. Judge NOT. This INCLUDES angels and men. ..Regardless of how much it seems someone is a ‘sinner’ or 'evil' or whatever, judge them not. Understand that not only does God love them the same as He loves you, just as you have had reasons and circumstances leading you to do things that you wish you had not done, etc., SO DOES everyone else!...Once you realize that God is no respecter of persons, you begin to understand what it means to respect all persons equally. Including yourself.


I love and respect others but it is not unconditional. Even then, I can still find love for the person but not for what he/she did. I do not judge but I choose not to take part or be with what I discern to be wrong. I try to change what I can and pray for what I cannot. I do not respect all persons equally if they act in a wicked way but I do forgive easily when an attempt to change is made.



........Whirlwind



posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 02:52 PM
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Do some research on Ezekiel 28 youll find that its referencing a human, the King of Tyre in prophecy. Its comparing him to Cherubim that are close to G-d. Its highly unlikely that Satan from Job would be a Cherubim. The Cherubim are guardians. In Job the Adatel is filled with the Morning Stars, Kowkab Boquer not Helel, and the Sons of G-d or Beni Elohim. Most likely he is one of those types and I'm leaning towards Ha Satan being a Son of G-d.

None sence, it's refering directly to him, satan was very close to god, there is no indication that it's a comparation, it states that he was in the garden of eden, it also describes him, it also uses the word cherubium that is an alngelical being, so his not refering to a human, this is just your interpretation that does not follow with the text sice the text is clear.
If you want to beiive that satan is not lucifer be my guest, but no one is going to take you serios with out any resources, evidence.
I can also say, no the sky is yellow, it's not blue, for no particular reason.




Nonsense?



It's very clear , god is refering to a character behind the king of tire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

He was created....not boren...
it states clear the day that you were cretaed.


It means then in your opinion that king of tire was created?

And please follow, he was perfect the day he was created? how can a king be perfect from the day he was created, god tels us that we sin from the day we are boren, boren not created, and he was perfect until the day
iniquity was found in him, meaning by your opinion that he was perfect in all aspects but once he became king he commited his first sin, because let's face it no human is perfect, no one is.

I havent herd of such people being perfect , then they must not be human.
at all

How can god compare the king of tire to an angelical being, because man can't be perfect, man is no where near perfection, we sin the day we are boren, it's the primordial sin from adam and eve and even if jesus came and took all our sins away .....just remember this is before jesus arived, were talking about the old testament.

Any way you put it you are wrong any way.

I just wanted to make a point to the fact that you stated what wings? regarding helel, well I guess satan had wings just like hellel did






[edit on 6-9-2007 by pepsi78]



posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 04:22 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78


Do some research on Ezekiel 28 youll find that its referencing a human, the King of Tyre in prophecy. Its comparing him to Cherubim that are close to G-d. Its highly unlikely that Satan from Job would be a Cherubim. The Cherubim are guardians. In Job the Adatel is filled with the Morning Stars, Kowkab Boquer not Helel, and the Sons of G-d or Beni Elohim. Most likely he is one of those types and I'm leaning towards Ha Satan being a Son of G-d.

None sence, it's refering directly to him, satan was very close to god, there is no indication that it's a comparation, it states that he was in the garden of eden, it also describes him, it also uses the word cherubium that is an alngelical being, so his not refering to a human, this is just your interpretation that does not follow with the text sice the text is clear.
If you want to beiive that satan is not lucifer be my guest, but no one is going to take you serios with out any resources, evidence.
I can also say, no the sky is yellow, it's not blue, for no particular reason.




Nonsense?



It's very clear , god is refering to a character behind the king of tire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

He was created....not boren...
it states clear the day that you were cretaed.


It means then in your opinion that king of tire was created?

And please follow, he was perfect the day he was created? how can a king be perfect from the day he was created, god tels us that we sin from the day we are boren, boren not created, and he was perfect until the day
iniquity was found in him, meaning by your opinion that he was perfect in all aspects but once he became king he commited his first sin, because let's face it no human is perfect, no one is.

I havent herd of such people being perfect , then they must not be human.
at all

How can god compare the king of tire to an angelical being, because man can't be perfect, man is no where near perfection, we sin the day we are boren, it's the primordial sin from adam and eve and even if jesus came and took all our sins away .....just remember this is before jesus arived, were talking about the old testament.

Any way you put it you are wrong any way.

I just wanted to make a point to the fact that you stated what wings? regarding helel, well I guess satan had wings just like hellel did






[edit on 6-9-2007 by pepsi78]


Old Testament? Well its my Testament. I much prefer the term Jewish Testament.

Regardless of what either of us believe the Text calls both of those Kings human. It calls them that not me. It also says they will be killed. It says that not my opinion. Lastly the texts are Prophecies given to Isaiah and Ezekiel. Thats not my opinion thats what the text says.

So at a bare minimum:

1. They are human.
2. They will be killed.
3. The texts are prophecies.

Now someone could go off on a tangent about how they were incarnated or made mortal. That they were originally Sarim. That still doesnt make them Satan. The Sarim and Satan are completely different jobs.



posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 06:30 PM
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reply to post by Stormdancer777
 



Jesus says, John 8:44 (KJV)

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

A murderer from the beginning? But who did he murder?


Jesus is speaking about Cain. He was the murderer from the beginning.


........Whirlwind



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