A Challenge For Non-Believers Of Christianity

Originally posted by Quazga
It's not Christianity I have a problem with. Hell, I am a Christian.

What I have an issue with is the dire need some people feel to convince me that Santa Claus is real.

Yeah its great for society to love eachother, and it's easier for us if we forgive and don't get wrapped around the axle about stuff. But I'm a grown adult. I don't need fairy tales to give me these morals, other than the general narrative context they provide.

And the fact remains, if Santa is real or not, I'm still getting presents on Christmas morning. As a Christian, I reall wish there would be some definitive evidence that Jesus did not exist. That way everyone who beleives in the philosophy attributed to him will actually have to figure out why they believe that way. His philosophy either works or it doesn't, it's not predicated on his existence.

Now personally, I find that following the teachings of Christ is a great path which brings many blessings. But I also see that Christianity is completely opposite of anything Jesus stood for.

It would be great if someone would just codify his teachings without wrapping it in the trappings requried for children.

I think I am beginning to understand you better now, since you said that. There's never been any doubt that Jesus existed. He's mentioned in the Encyclopedia Brittanica as an historical fact. The question has always been, "Was He the Son of God?"
It is a crying shame what humanity has done to Christ's teachings. And once again, I really wish people would stop lumping Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, Amish, Mennonites and other such groups in with Christianity. It does not fit. Catholics and the like do not even follow Bible teachings.
Chances are, that if I had been brought up Catholic, I too would now be an atheist.
Also, I see that some people have already misunderstood what I have asked of them here. I never suggested that the old testament was to be forever forgotten. I enjoy that part myself. But just for this experiment, since we are living in new testament times, that's where I wanted everyone to start. I get great comfort from the Psalms. There's a lot of history in the old testament. I love the Book of Daniel. There is a lot of prophecy there. It just seems that most of the quotes I see used against people for the purpose of ill will, come out of the old testament. Did you know that the 91st Psalm has the greatest promises of protection in the whole Bible? Please don't read something into this that I didn't say.
I'm not trying to start a war. I thought maybe if you guys could pick up on the personality of Jesus, you might see why He had such a steadfast following. Why people were willing to go down in burning buildings, or be burned at the stake, rather than denounce Him. Maybe you won't. I thought it was worth a try. And please forgive me, I didn't mean to insinuate that only atheists have hate in their hearts. Anyone that's had to live any amount of time in this world and experience needless suffering pain and trauma; we all know about hate!

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

You are correct, Catholics and Christians are completely different although many Catholics will tell you they are Christians.

Catholics are for the most part people of religion while Christians are for the most part people of Faith. Catholics work toward salvation while Christians work from salvation. Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying Catholics are bad people here.

I can see already that the OP's words are being somewhat misread, so imagine if you will how misread and misinterpreted the Bible is?

IMO that is one of the major problems with how people view Christianity. If I had just a penny for every time I've seen someone misunderstand scripture. There are literal parts of the Bible but it is also filled with phrases and words that mean something completely different in todays world than what they meant during the original penning.

So why not just change it? Well, it's not so simple as that. The Bible has never changed in content but it does change in style from time to time. It is commanded however to remain as it was in origin. A great place to start to really understand the Bible is to read it of course but I also need guidance in understanding. When I reach out for definition I often go here: equip.org or I listen to Hank Hanegraaff's radio show. If anyone understands the Bible it's him.

There are some slight differences among the denominations but overall we are all parts of the same body. I think the important things to remember are to act as an ambassador of Christ with love and understanding. As an imperfect human being I am guilty of making mistakes just like everyone else. There are times when I get frustrated to the point of saying things that I'm not proud of but I do my best and that's all we can do.

Instead of attacking each other (I think someone said that on page 1), it would be great if we could listen to each other and try to learn something. Many have horror stories or bad experiences at some points in their lives as it relates to church, religion, etc..but you have to trust that those experiences were probably not the best examples of what God intended. They were more having to do with people than God and that's where the water starts to get muddy and people begin to move away. It's unfortunate but it happens, however, I can tell you that if you gave it a chance somewhere else you may be surprised at how much different you find things and you will see that it's not that horrible thing that you lived thru years ago. It was just the wrong place at the wrong time.

There are wonderful Christians out there that want to share the good news but they often don't get the chance because too many came before and pushed the wrong buttons in the wrong way at the wrong time.

All I can say is if it doesn't feel good in your heart then it probably isn't and it's time to try somewhere else. However, it doesn't mean you should throw the baby out with the bath water. Don't throw Christ away with the bad teacher or experience because I can guarantee that Christ is about love.

OK, I'm done babbling.

janasstar

I am an agnostic and i take a massive issue with your statement that we should take the hatred from our hearts. I don't hate the bible or christians and i really take serious offense that being agnostic means i hate people or ideas.

I don't care what religion someone follows. Some christians hate islam or any other religion, some hate agnostics, some hate atheists, some hate pro abortionists. You have no right to talk about hatred when people who claim to follow your religion hate others.

The hatred in my heart as an agnostic? How dare you.

Why shouldn't we study the bible logically? Isn't it gods word? Oh wait no it isn't, a lot of it was written by priests who claimed to be speaking to god.

Again i take a massive amount of offence at someone claiming my heart must be full of hatred because i'm agnostic. This would be like saying your heart must be full of hatred because some christians bomb abortion clinics or homosexual clubs.

[edit on 11-8-2007 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by janasstar
I can't help but wonder what the results would be, if the non-believers, agnostics and atheists would take a certain amount of time (the amount will be up to the individual), and wipe all the hate from their hearts, or as much as is possible.

i really dont have much to say on the subject of religion.i simply wanted to state that im offended in your assumptions that non christians automatically have hate in them.i am a very love oriented person who belives in spirituality to my own definitions.but i harbor no ill will or hate towards organized religion.i have read the bible and went to church when i was younger i dont follow christianity now because i came to the logical conclusion...Imo..that the bible is equal to the works of nastradamus or plato.great writting with a wonderfull message for...the most part.buh in my eyes theres just to many inconsistencies and alternitive explanations for me to fully belive exactally what the bible says.

Originally posted by Quazga
It's not Christianity I have a problem with. Hell, I am a Christian.

What I have an issue with is the dire need some people feel to convince me that Santa Claus is real.

Yeah its great for society to love eachother, and it's easier for us if we forgive and don't get wrapped around the axle about stuff. But I'm a grown adult. I don't need fairy tales to give me these morals, other than the general narrative context they provide.

And the fact remains, if Santa is real or not, I'm still getting presents on Christmas morning. As a Christian, I reall wish there would be some definitive evidence that Jesus did not exist. That way everyone who beleives in the philosophy attributed to him will actually have to figure out why they believe that way. His philosophy either works or it doesn't, it's not predicated on his existence.

Now personally, I find that following the teachings of Christ is a great path which brings many blessings. But I also see that Christianity is completely opposite of anything Jesus stood for.

It would be great if someone would just codify his teachings without wrapping it in the trappings requried for children.

First Santa Claus is real at least he was a living man at one time.
Maybe those trying to convince you he is real have something after all and might need to be paid a bit more attention too.

www.stnicholascenter.org...

www.culture.gouv.fr...

www.christmas-day.org...

This is merely a small portion of links you can find on him. He was a nice guy or seems to be from what history tells us of him. Remember to deny ignorance here at ATS.

Now had you said the easter bunny or tooth fairy that may have been a different story. Research can be done on the myth and how they got started though there may be a suprise in the end who knows.

Raist

Wierd, i am reading the Bible in its entirety again.. this time with a green and a red Highlighter. Green= good (no discrepencies or good morals) REd = the opposite. From the looks of things Imma need to buy a few more red highlighters!


Sux cause I a broke !

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

Originally posted by future flow

Originally posted by janasstar
I can't help but wonder what the results would be, if the non-believers, agnostics and atheists would take a certain amount of time (the amount will be up to the individual), and wipe all the hate from their hearts, or as much as is possible.

i really dont have much to say on the subject of religion.i simply wanted to state that im offended in your assumptions that non christians automatically have hate in them.i am a very love oriented person who belives in spirituality to my own definitions.but i harbor no ill will or hate towards organized religion.i have read the bible and went to church when i was younger i dont follow christianity now because i came to the logical conclusion...Imo..that the bible is equal to the works of nastradamus or plato.great writting with a wonderfull message for...the most part.buh in my eyes theres just to many inconsistencies and alternitive explanations for me to fully belive exactally what the bible says.

Once again, in case you didn't see it the 1st time, I apologize for my choice of words. I really didn't mean that only non-believers had hate in their hearts. I did a full explanation on that a few replies back. We all have forms of hate in us, no matter who we are. The point I was trying to make, was to try to remove these feelings while reading the Bible. Do you think you could forgive me, just this once? :-)

When you say we all have forms of hate in us, just what is it that you mean?

It would seem that you're not really clarifying things sufficiently and I'm trying to support you here dear.

Once again, in case you didn't see it the 1st time, I apologize for my choice of words. I really didn't mean that only non-believers had hate in their hearts. I did a full explanation on that a few replies back. We all have forms of hate in us, no matter who we are. The point I was trying to make, was to try to remove these feelings while reading the Bible. Do you think you could forgive me, just this once? :-)


no i didnt see your apoligie so for that i apologize buh the fact still remains when i read the bible i didnt have hate in my heart just good ole fashion skepticism. i understand what your trying to do but i warn you many will not be as accepting of this as you think and will probably see it as some sort of challenge to prove you wrong.my advice dont worry about getting other to belive what you do.just live and lead by example.

Originally posted by jbondo
When you say we all have forms of hate in us, just what is it that you mean?

It would seem that you're not really clarifying things sufficiently and I'm trying to support you here dear.

I'm sure that the emotion 'hate' is a different and sometimes personal thing with each individual. I try hard to have the right perspective, but so help me, in spite of everything, I hate child molesters. With the Lord's help maybe I can just hate the sin and not the person. But this cost my baby sister her life at a very young age. So yes, I have a problem in this area.

Heres something ive been meaning to aska christian....Do you only go into heaven if you follow the bible or do you get into heaven for being a good person? I mean there are plenty of atheists out there that I know of (yes iam an atheist) that are good people that have been told that they are going to hell for not following the whole christian/ religion thing. I know that sounds funny because atheists dont believe in heaven and hell but say there is (hypothetically from my point of view), would only the religion worshippers get into heaven?

How about we just forget about it? I see that no one is going to go about this in the right frame of mind anyway. All it did was start a bunch more arguing and more hard feelings that we didn't need. I really wasn't trying to do a bad thing. So forgive me for wanting to share something that I felt was very special and worth sharing. My words have been twisted to the the point that I don't recognize them.
I see that everyone is happy just like they are. Peace be with you!

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
Heres something ive been meaning to aska christian....Do you only go into heaven if you follow the bible or do you get into heaven for being a good person? I mean there are plenty of atheists out there that I know of (yes iam an atheist) that are good people that have been told that they are going to hell for not following the whole christian/ religion thing. I know that sounds funny because atheists dont believe in heaven and hell but say there is (hypothetically from my point of view), would only the religion worshippers get into heaven?

Actually, according to Jesus, the Kingdom of Heaven is inside of us. We only have to wake up to it. Or as he said "die to this world". Now for those who feel guilty or believe false laws, the way to do this is through forgiveness of all sins. Once this mindset is practiced enough, people will not become chained by the false beliefs perpetrated on them in the name of God, and then won't require forgiveness at all. That's why he did things that were against the law like eat with defiled hands, work on the sabbath, etc. Because he realized that people had an overdeveloped sense of the law. The law wasn't put in place to enslave humans but free them, however it had become the tool of enslavement used by the pious of his time.

This malarke about going to heaven after only after you die, well thats just superstition.

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
Heres something ive been meaning to aska christian....Do you only go into heaven if you follow the bible or do you get into heaven for being a good person? I mean there are plenty of atheists out there that I know of (yes iam an atheist) that are good people that have been told that they are going to hell for not following the whole christian/ religion thing. I know that sounds funny because atheists dont believe in heaven and hell but say there is (hypothetically from my point of view), would only the religion worshippers get into heaven?

Jesus' answer to that was, "ye must be born again to enter Heaven." What does that mean, you might ask? Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. John 3:16

Originally posted by janasstar
I see that everyone is happy just like they are. Peace be with you!

This above statement is truely the escense of wisdom.

No sarcassim intended.

Vas

Well im screwed then......i think i might follow buddhism, at least its a known fact that buddah WAS a real person and there are different levels of worship for buddah to

Originally posted by janasstar

Jesus' answer to that was, "ye must be born again to enter Heaven." What does that mean, you might ask? Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. John 3:16

When someone is born are they aware of Jesus? No. This implies that Jesus is not necessary for a rebirth. In fact, I have even experienced this rebirth you speak of, and it had nothing to do with Jesus at all. No, it all came from within.

[edit on 11-8-2007 by Vipassana]

Originally posted by Vipassana

Originally posted by janasstar

Jesus' answer to that was, "ye must be born again to enter Heaven." What does that mean, you might ask? Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. John 3:16

When someone is born are they aware of Jesus? No. This implies that Jesus is not necessary for a rebirth. In fact, I have even experienced this rebirth you speak of, and it had nothing to do with Jesus at all. No, it all came from within.

[edit on 11-8-2007 by Vipassana]

Obviously then, you didn't have the re-birth that Jesus is speaking of. That's the one that Christians believe you need to enter Heaven. And that's who the question was directed at. Most times, people are not aware of Jesus at birth, and whether they are or not, the Lord said that we must be born again. Which is a spiritual re-birth. Which comes from believing that Jesus is the Son of God (Lord). Then 1st, you believe it in your heart, then confess it with your mouth. Then you shall be saved. It's a free gift.

Originally posted by janasstar


Obviously then, you didn't have the re-birth that Jesus is speaking of. That's the one that Christians believe you need to enter Heaven. And that's who the question was directed at. Most times, people are not aware of Jesus at birth, and whether they are or not, the Lord said that we must be born again. Which is a spiritual re-birth. Which comes from believing that Jesus is the Son of God (Lord). Then 1st, you believe it in your heart, then confess it with your mouth. Then you shall be saved. It's a free gift.

But don't you know that somepeople don't want, or even need that gift?