A Challenge For Non-Believers Of Christianity

Originally posted by Quazga

It would be great if someone would just codify his teachings without wrapping it in the trappings requried for children.

Someone did...hobbes.ncsa.uiuc.edu...

Sums up all the good points without resorting to dogma.
BTW, I'm not christian, I suppose I'm agnostic but leaning toward atheist. Read the bible, been "saved", but then woke up. No hate in my heart. How presumptuous to say so, OP. You must think so little of us non-believers. It's ok. Andy

I believe in two things, and by not stating the unclear concept of love, I'd say compassion and liberty.

Jesus as a historical character probably existed. (I'm saying probably because of the slight chance our officials have modified history on this matter, what was it that Napeleon said: "History is written by the winners"?)

Now, that man Jesus encouraged obvious universal moral values. The story of Jesus ends there. Then the story of power hungry men starts from there. I have no idea how and under which circonstances the bible was written, but what I know is that it was not written by Jesus himself, thus no reason to trust whatever it says­. Throughout ages, Christianity was used to control and take advantage of people. In middle ages, the Church (yes, the same holy Church you christians love so much) said to the much numerous Christian population that they would have slimmer chances to go to hell or the purgatory if they gave lots of money to the Church. Practical isn't? After that, maybe around 100 years ago, the Church decided that all Christians had to make numerous children. Women were rushed into unwanted marriages, and forced to be baby-producing machines, and if they didn't, they would be rejected by their family, and looked down upon by their entire society. Again, a much devious and useful move to increase the amount of Christian children, an easily controlled population. And today, you have the same church stemming intolerance against gays, causing further pain to them. Tolerance which is one of the Universal moral values Jesus preached. This is how far from Jesus, God, and the Universal moral laws, Christianity has gotten. Sorry, no cookie for you.

Originally posted by Hallberg Rassy

so then the question again becomes what happens to people that have never heard of jesus or jesus teachings..?

Well Jesus told his followers to not teach the gentile (non jews) for he is here to save gods fallen children of isreal. He also said that the gentiles would also sitt with them in heaven. This to me alludes that Jesus is not the only way, and that he was sent at that time for the jews who had strayed from his commandments.
As for those who never heard the word of Jesus. What you do is more important then what you say. If you follow a path (no matter how primitve we think it is) to God with full faith and love he will surely look at you positively. God reveals himself according to time and circumstance. He is god and greather then us.. he can assume any role he wishes for he is god.

Originally posted by plague

Originally posted by Hallberg Rassy

so then the question again becomes what happens to people that have never heard of jesus or jesus teachings..?

Well Jesus told his followers to not teach the gentile (non jews) for he is here to save gods fallen children of isreal. He also said that the gentiles would also sitt with them in heaven. This to me alludes that Jesus is not the only way, and that he was sent at that time for the jews who had strayed from his commandments.
As for those who never heard the word of Jesus. What you do is more important then what you say. If you follow a path (no matter how primitve we think it is) to God with full faith and love he will surely look at you positively. God reveals himself according to time and circumstance. He is god and greather then us.. he can assume any role he wishes for he is god.

Where do you get your info on that? I had to write a paper on the gospels and how, for example, the gospel of Matthew was for gentiles, the gospel of Luke for Jews, etc. And not to mention the gospels thrown out at the Council of Nicea. Now, I might just be reciting sunday school rhetoric, but wasn't Jesus here to save everyone?

OK i'll read the bible if you read the stories of Horus Isis and Osiris, and tell me there is no similarities, OK?

I have alot of hatred in my heart, but only towards arrogant, ignorant people.

I now believe in Satan, thats right, christianity does my head in so I'm going against it!

Originally posted by drumist69

Originally posted by Quazga

It would be great if someone would just codify his teachings without wrapping it in the trappings requried for children.

Someone did...hobbes.ncsa.uiuc.edu...

Sums up all the good points without resorting to dogma.
BTW, I'm not christian, I suppose I'm agnostic but leaning toward atheist. Read the bible, been "saved", but then woke up. No hate in my heart. How presumptuous to say so, OP. You must think so little of us non-believers. It's ok. Andy

Hey, Thanks for that link! Really appreciate it!

Originally posted by plague

Originally posted by Hallberg Rassy

so then the question again becomes what happens to people that have never heard of jesus or jesus teachings..?

Well Jesus told his followers to not teach the gentile (non jews) for he is here to save gods fallen children of isreal. He also said that the gentiles would also sitt with them in heaven. This to me alludes that Jesus is not the only way, and that he was sent at that time for the jews who had strayed from his commandments.
As for those who never heard the word of Jesus. What you do is more important then what you say. If you follow a path (no matter how primitve we think it is) to God with full faith and love he will surely look at you positively. God reveals himself according to time and circumstance. He is god and greather then us.. he can assume any role he wishes for he is god.

Plague,
There is an obvious reason for this. Jung used to say that the job of a psychoanalyst is not to convert someone from what model of thinking to another, as much as it is to make the Jew a better Jew, the Chrisitan a better Christian, and the Muslim a better Muslim, etc.

Thats because each of the unique cultural mindsets come with their own unique neuroses which each have a unique type of therapy to bring them back into balance with the individual.

We always hear about Jewish Guilt, which is most likely why one of Jesus's biggest tennants was Forgiveness.

Originally posted by TheOmen
OK i'll read the bible if you read the stories of Horus Isis and Osiris, and tell me there is no similarities, OK?

I have alot of hatred in my heart, but only towards arrogant, ignorant people.

I now believe in Satan, thats right, christianity does my head in so I'm going against it!

Of course there are similarities, all human cultures produce similarities because they are all within one species of similarity.

[edit on 12-8-2007 by Quazga]

I believe God is with the suffering. God is a state of mind.
When I had my car accident, I believed God was with me.
Would heal me, help me walk again and see again.
My husband called it pure will power.

The bible is a book. Books are a teaching. Teachers teach
and pupils learn. You will believe what your taught.

Religion is a subject no more or less then History, Science or
Math.
However add the name Jesus or God and you got a mix for
all kinds of feelings and thoughts. We want to believe someone is super-human. Someone is greater then all. Can fix anything that ails us with a prayer and a bunch of kneeling.

We believe it so much, that some folks will kill others to prove it.

God is in your mind. How much you believe of it is up to the individual.
I know all the gospel songs and church songs. Was bused to church as a child. Grew up a Baptist and married a Methodist.

God is real and he is with the suffering. Do I believe there is a Higher Power? Absolutely. Do I believe in God? Absolutely.
Is God real - Yes, only in your mind.

Originally posted by Vikki
I believe God is with the suffering. God is a state of mind.
When I had my car accident, I believed God was with me.
Would heal me, help me walk again and see again.
My husband called it pure will power.

The bible is a book. Books are a teaching. Teachers teach
and pupils learn. You will believe what your taught.

Religion is a subject no more or less then History, Science or
Math.
However add the name Jesus or God and you got a mix for
all kinds of feelings and thoughts. We want to believe someone is super-human. Someone is greater then all. Can fix anything that ails us with a prayer and a bunch of kneeling.

We believe it so much, that some folks will kill others to prove it.

God is in your mind. How much you believe of it is up to the individual.
I know all the gospel songs and church songs. Was bused to church as a child. Grew up a Baptist and married a Methodist.

God is real and he is with the suffering. Do I believe there is a Higher Power? Absolutely. Do I believe in God? Absolutely.
Is God real - Yes, only in your mind.

Viikki,

Thank you for your post. I think you have quantified the question of the existence of God rather nicely.

PROPHET JESUS : A PROPHET, NOT A SON, OF GOD:

www.harunyahya.com...

I personally feel belief should come down to experience and just what makes sense to you as a person, what feels right and true. What is right for one person isnt right for everyone. I used to be christian, but I lost interest completely in religion during my teenage years. However over the last year or so, personal experiences, the experiences of others who I consider trustworthy and well just personal intuition and logic have led me to believe in the dharmic religious systems (those based on vedic scriptures eg buddhism, hinduism and jainism).

Based on these experiences, dharmic religions became the only answer for me, as they are based on reincarnation and spirit, which I believe these experiences validate. The other main belief of the eastern religions is that god is not a big man with a beard, but brahman, the culmination of annything and everything in the universe, everything is connected, which makes a lot more sense to me.

Christians I have spoken to about dharmic religions claim that the devil created them to make man stray from the truth. Whether they are correct or not, such narrow minded disrespect for other peoples beliefs is something that most people would not accept if it was in everyday life and not religion based. Whereas all the followers of dharmic relgions I have spoken to show the utmost respect for the beliefs of christians and in fact all other religions. Those of them who knew about christianity have generally said that jesus was a great man and that his teachings are just a different path (than those taught in dharmic religions) with the same goals and ending.

Dharmic religions teach selflessness, peace, harmony, non violence and respect over all else, as well as keeping yourself healthy with exercise (yoga) and your mind clear and focused (meditation). These things make dharmic religions far more appealing to me than anything else, because morals, health and learning are all emphasized, things people in the west could learn from. I personally have no intention of converting to any of the dharmic religions, but they make the most sense to me.
However, like I said before, what makes sense to some does not to all.

Great... another Christians vs Atheists topic, how i love these.

In relation to the OP, yes my heart is filled with hate. Hate for generalizing zealots like yourself. I live my life and harm no-one, so how dare you judge me by your beliefs or 'book'.

I've read the Bible in it's entirety, and i see more hate in it than i've seen in my entire life.

Now, for my generic disclaimer for these types of topics:

I believe that religion in the present day, and in the past few centuries is far more geared towards maintaining power and controlling the populace rather than spreading any sort of faith.

I was brought up in a Catholic household, with Seven Day Adventist and Methodist relatives, so i had a fair whack of Christianity thrown at me. Up to adolescence i believed, you could say, but when i started to gain a bit of independence i realized that i had no faith whatsoever in their God. Why should I?

My only beliefs that go anywhere near religion is that possibly, tens of thousands of years ago, our planet was visited by another race that gave humanoids evolution a little shove. Whether they are still here now, i am not to say. I do believe, however, that they are responsible for some of the great races, such as Maya, Egyptians etc.

That clash too much with your religious beliefs? Tough. I can't really stop you or anyone else from being brainwashed to follow a deity that doesn't exist, but i can certainly save myself.

My stance on life is that i can lead a good, moral life without doing it for a God. There is no such thing as living a 'Christian' lifestyle, it is simply being a good person.

Originally posted by mrmanuva
I personally feel belief should come down to experience and just what makes sense to you as a person, what feels right and true.

Funny how that's what the scientific method was based on ... "Experience".

See Empirical...

www.webster.com...

Considering that many atheists come from Christian families or backgrounds, I really don't see the point of this challenge. Although I can't speak for all non-believers, Christians are like anyone else, nothing special, simply individuals with their own minds and beliefs.

All this has gone on for 5 pages now, and not one person has accepted the challenge. I have posted twice and apologized for my wording on the hatred in the heart. Didn't mean that it only existed in certain groups. Just the way it came out. I would edit it, but haven't found a way to do so. So for the 3rd time, I did not mean it that way.
The only thing I've seen here is the same old stale arguments from atheists and Christians alike. So, it has changed nothing, and frankly, I'm quite bored with the whole thing. Got a life to get on with. Might drop in from time to time to say hello. But you guys just keep, keepin' on. Be happy!

Originally posted by janasstar
All this has gone on for 5 pages now, and not one person has accepted the challenge.

well, i already told you that i completed the challenge a while ago, so that should count as someone accepting it.

I have posted twice and apologized for my wording on the hatred in the heart. Didn't mean that it only existed in certain groups. Just the way it came out. I would edit it, but haven't found a way to do so. So for the 3rd time, I did not mean it that way.

then exactly what way did you mean to presume that all non-christians have hate in their hearts?

Like I said, I've fully explained this twice, but I'll do it again. I just meant that if you had any feelings of hatred in your heart, to try to remove them, just for the experiment. It came out wrong. I've also explained that sometimes I have to deal with feelings of hatred, myself. So, I'm not someone who can cast stones at anybody. Sometimes I say things here being in a playful mood, trying to get people to lighten up, and I even put a smiley on it; and all Hades breaks loose. Like the remark about turning the other cheek. I thought surely that everyone had seen that on, "The Gambler." Starring Kenny Rogers.

I have read this thread since it started.
And actually I disagree with the auteur of the thread, this thread is not boring at all.
In the vast world of spiritualism and faith, only those that believe can take the challenge offer by this thread. This is what we tent to believe.
I my self believe that no one really reject the notion of God. Atheist, agnostic and other are unconsciously not really rejecting the notion of God himself but they do reject the notion of stereotyping Divinity. This is what all religion are doing today is labializing the notion of God.
Therefore, this "challenge" has already been taking by those that have been targeted. This is a fact because they are Human to the same extent as any believer of God.
I have included an extract of a book (The future of man) that deal with the evolution of faith in man.
The auteur Teilhard De Chardin, Jesuit priest.

(To the eye of the material science, one of the most extraordinary uniqueness of life is its additive quality.
Life spreads itself without end adding to itself what is successively acquires- like a memory, as has often been said.
Every living being passes on to his successor the being he himself inherited, not merely diversified but accentuated in a given direction, according to the line of which he seem in varying degrees and each after its own formula to move a greater or lesser distance in the general direction of greater spontaneity and consciousness. Something passes, something grows, through the long chain of living creatures this is the great fact, or the great law, whose discovery has transformed our vision of the universe during nearly 2 centuries.)

Kacou.
Ps. English is not my mother tongue.

ACtually I was watching TV two nights ago. There was a show called "30 Days" on where an Athiest who had been a christian for 27 years before... took a "challenge" to go live in a christian home for 30 days, do bible study, etc, and when she was talking and a few otehr athiests were talking with some christians, One Athiest fellow said "On the money we use every day it says "In God we trust". That is a religious belief that I and many people do not share. How would you like it if the money said "There is no God"? And all this chirstian bloke could do was say "But it says "In God we trust". it says "In God we trust". He couldn't open his mind up to understand this other persons point of view. His feelings on the subject.

Another part of the TV show was about What the parents of this christian family thought of Athiests before actually meeting the lady. "An Athiest family, must have no or bad morals, sin a lot".

Now dont get me wrong. I grew up as a Roman Catholic Christian. Christian morals, etc, Read the Bible, read it again. Sung songs at church. Was baptised. Received commmunion, went to church every week. The morals are good. The morals are fine. You know what bugs me? Jesus this. Jesus that. Must come to church every week. There are a lot of contradictions in the bible. You know. First off. Why is the image of jesus on a cross. Well the image of jesus thats spread throughout the world is the image of a murderer. He is a murderer. Im not saying the jesus was a murderer. But the physical image of jesus is that of a person who was a murderer. Secondly... Jesus was a "son of God". Well i think he was human but apparently "a messiah". I'm sure Jesus was a good man if he did in fact exist. But a man and only that. Jesus wasn't around when the world was "created" and the universe was "created". So "thou shall not worship false idols", "There is one true God". Who wrote these words? Men. Fallible men.

Instead of believing one thing and only one thing, how about you try to open your mind, and do some research on things. Such as Horus and Jesus. Zeitgeist. Just dont try and tell us to change our beliefs. I think all the time on life, reality, what is it, paranormal ativity, science, quantum physics, philosophy, theology, physics, conspiracies, etc. I try and take in as much info as i can, and have a wide variety of things to read and take in. Sure i believe in god, or a god, or osmething like that. I believe in a "life" after death not kowing exactly what it would be, could be, but when you start trying to unravel what reality is it will get you thinking along the lines as "i exist and dont exist at the same time", I'm here and everywhere all at once, but im also nowhere at the same time"