A Challenge For Non-Believers Of Christianity

Originally posted by emjoi
Jana, I guess you've got to realise that you've stepped into a vipers nest in this forum. You have the extremes in this place from both sides of the track, and so you were always going to get some extreme replies.

Your faith works well for you, so be happy with that. Don't let this place mess that up. All that would do is take away a part of what makes you a whole person.

It's people like you, who help keep me going when the chips are down. It's what fellowship is all about. And i appreciate your support and understanding, no matter what side of the fence you're on.

Originally posted by janasstar
You wouldn't accept it if Jesus Himself walked up and handed you the first hand source. Some people say, "Well, if I saw Jesus I would believe. Many people did see Jesus and didn't believe!

i will state this, for the record. i am an atheist, that means if i saw jesus and had evidence of all of his godly stuff i would be the first to admit i was wrong.

What has me being a woman got to do with it? AND ONCE AGAIN, I NEVER, EVER SAID THAT THE OT WAS TO BE PERMANENTLY OMITTED!!!!

the new testament, you told us to read it. it's incredibly misogynistic. you telling us to read it is ironic because you are a woman.

I'm just going to jump in here, but as I saw the challenge for the atheist

I must jump in being an Ex- Christian going to Buddhism, I've read the bible countless times, Even asked to talk about it in my church. I can't help but feel like it's a 100% contradiction to itself, I can read it again but, why? I just came from a catholic school that made me even go to mass and have a religion class.

Granted it was good at senior year because, we talked about other faiths, even my teacher didn't agree with it. Their are just to many things in it that doesn't make sense, but their are a lot of good story spin-offs inside of the bible and some that are made by others. Such as Dante's The Divine Comedy, other than the story aspect I think the bible is more like a "Guideline" to how somebody wants people to live in the future. Instead if provoked fear, and I'm sure many got tired of hearing about "Oh! if you don't praise lord Jesus your going to Hell!" As many others who have heard that, it's that saying among many others that turned me away.

I still have a belief in "Something Godlike" but more so, it won't be the same one as Christianity.

Furthermore; one story has me baffled: How did people of this time learn of all the stories of creation of Adam and Eve and know their were only two people at that time, yet we are all diverse at a point? As we'll...How did they know just how God created the universe...?

Heres a thought.

Christians and many other religions are eager to convert, save souls and gain the approval of others in regards to their religion because deep inside themselves they're abit unsure and lost.

People who aren't into religion are eager to argue with religious people so that they can save not their souls, but their minds.

Originally posted by T0by
Heres a thought.

Christians and many other religions are eager to convert, save souls and gain the approval of others in regards to their religion because deep inside themselves they're abit unsure and lost.

People who aren't into religion are eager to argue with religious people so that they can save not their souls, but their minds.

Well then let me flip the script. Some of us religious folk (im not a christian but a Vaishna of Krishna) are so self assure and fixed upon our path that we give up persueing all those things most people call fun, and persue only those things that lead us to enlightenment.

However most (NOT ALL...I REPEAT FOR THE WORD TWISTERS AND VOULTURES NOT ALL) people who "are not into religion" use there position as an exscuse to live life with no regrets. To do what they want with out conscious or fear of repercussions. If I dont believe.... I dont have to live up to a certain standard. Now ask yourself is that My logic that blinds you or Gods eternal energy.

Originally posted by plague
However most (NOT ALL...I REPEAT FOR THE WORD TWISTERS AND VOULTURES NOT ALL) people who "are not into religion" use there position as an exscuse to live life with no regrets. To do what they want with out conscious or fear of repercussions. If I dont believe.... I dont have to live up to a certain standard. Now ask yourself is that My logic that blinds you or Gods eternal energy.

Uh-huh and you know this...how? Most of the people I know that don't believe in Jesus have very high integrity. It's the people who profess 24/7 that they follow Jesus who, IMHO, who often don't worry about their integrity. They bother me with their hypocrisy.

[edit on 15/8/07 by forestlady]

And once again, I really wish people would stop lumping Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, Amish, Mennonites and other such groups in with Christianity.
[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

This only serves to highlight your ignorance about the Christian religion. All of the current Christian religions came from the Catholic church. In 1517 Martin Luther, a German Catholic priest began to have problems with the church and in 1521 he was excommunicated, starting the Protestant Reformation, and the Lutheran church. Anglicanism was founded by Henry VIII so that he could get a divorce, and so that he could confiscate church property to enrich himself. Name your religion and I can show you just how it descends from its Catholic beginnings.

Catholics and the like do not even follow Bible teachings.
[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

Why don't we compare the Catholic Bible to the King James Version? The Torah, also called The Old Testament - both have all of the books of the Torah, in a different order than the Jews have them, and Chagai is renamed Haggai in the Old Testament, and neither have the Mishna or the Talmud. The Catholics also includes 9 Books edited out of the King James by the Protestants. They are; Tobit, 1st & 2nd Maccabes, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, Prayer in the Fiery Furnace, and Susanna & the Elders. Both the Catholic and the King James have the same books in the New Testament. Seems the Protestants have lost a few books along the way, making me wonder, if anyone has failed to follow all of the Bibles teachings, perhaps it would be those who don't have all of the Bible. And, as for your statement that Catholics do not follow Bible's teachings, I would like you to provide me with examples of the Catholic church violating the laws of God as written in the Bible, so that we may look at them in detail, and determine if they violate the Bible, or are just a different interpretation of the Bible.

Not being as familiar with the other three religions you mention, or having any idea who the "other such groups" are, I can not, and will not discuss them in any depth.

Everyone please forgive me if this has already been covered, I have not read all of the postings in this forum yet.

Lindulf

I have not read the rest of the replies to this thread, just the OP.

I was excited when I read this challenge, as I had taken it previously, before I ever read your post, on my own free will. I am an atheist. I don't believe in religion, and I don't believe god is something to be worshipped or prayed too. I merely read the bible to see what it was all about and try to unbias myself. I must admit, it was one of the hardest reads of my life. The moment I read, 'God created man in his image,' I took a deep breath and said out loud, this is gonna be tough.

I made it through the book, if I may call it that; however, my views and opinions have not changed from the experience. The bible is a man made book, with man made thoughts, and man made opinions. Some are undoubtably ficticious, and some are true. Yet the only thing in Christianity that I remotely agree with is the idea of god creating the universe through the big bang, but I don't think it's all a divine plan. Nothing will come of worship.

I am proud I took the challenge.

[edit on 15-8-2007 by ingeniouslycorrupt]

Originally posted by emjoi
Jana, I guess you've got to realise that you've stepped into a vipers nest in this forum. You have the extremes in this place from both sides of the track, and so you were always going to get some extreme replies.

Your faith works well for you, so be happy with that. Don't let this place mess that up. All that would do is take away a part of what makes you a whole person.

I read this reply and was kind of unnerved. Christiany is always trying to convert people to their religion. You just stated to not let the extreme athiest comments mess up Jana's faith. I find it oddly amusing that you have the guts to say don't change to what they are so blatantly infront of us all, but you want other people to gain faith in Christiany.

So much for balance??

Originally posted by forestlady

Originally posted by plague
However most (NOT ALL...I REPEAT FOR THE WORD TWISTERS AND VOULTURES NOT ALL) people who "are not into religion" use there position as an exscuse to live life with no regrets. To do what they want with out conscious or fear of repercussions. If I dont believe.... I dont have to live up to a certain standard. Now ask yourself is that My logic that blinds you or Gods eternal energy.

Uh-huh and you know this...how? Most of the people I know that don't believe in Jesus have very high integrity. It's the people who profess 24/7 that they follow Jesus who, IMHO, who often don't worry about their integrity. They bother me with their hypocrisy.

[edit on 15/8/07 by forestlady]

Well I guess there really not Christian now are they? Theres a difference between one whos walking the path and one who telling the story about the path.... Im shure you can tell the difference, but you cant lump all religious people into one huge group. There are some of us who are sincere with there thoughts and actions. But you bring up a good point and and i cant stand those people eaither they do a graet in just to the person and the memory of the man they claim to follow....there seems to be alot on ATS and out on the street.

Originally posted by plague

Originally posted by T0by
Heres a thought.

Christians and many other religions are eager to convert, save souls and gain the approval of others in regards to their religion because deep inside themselves they're abit unsure and lost.

People who aren't into religion are eager to argue with religious people so that they can save not their souls, but their minds.

Well then let me flip the script. Some of us religious folk (im not a christian but a Vaishna of Krishna) are so self assure and fixed upon our path that we give up persueing all those things most people call fun, and persue only those things that lead us to enlightenment.

However most (NOT ALL...I REPEAT FOR THE WORD TWISTERS AND VOULTURES NOT ALL) people who "are not into religion" use there position as an exscuse to live life with no regrets. To do what they want with out conscious or fear of repercussions. If I dont believe.... I dont have to live up to a certain standard. Now ask yourself is that My logic that blinds you or Gods eternal energy.

I expected that to be flipped, and accept that it can be.
It's not really a universal law of course but I think it can be applied in some clases

Originally posted by plague

Originally posted by T0by
Heres a thought.

Christians and many other religions are eager to convert, save souls and gain the approval of others in regards to their religion because deep inside themselves they're abit unsure and lost.

People who aren't into religion are eager to argue with religious people so that they can save not their souls, but their minds.

Well then let me flip the script. Some of us religious folk (im not a christian but a Vaishna of Krishna) are so self assure and fixed upon our path that we give up persueing all those things most people call fun, and persue only those things that lead us to enlightenment.

However most (NOT ALL...I REPEAT FOR THE WORD TWISTERS AND VOULTURES NOT ALL) people who "are not into religion" use there position as an exscuse to live life with no regrets. To do what they want with out conscious or fear of repercussions. If I dont believe.... I dont have to live up to a certain standard. Now ask yourself is that My logic that blinds you or Gods eternal energy.

I expected that to be flipped, and accept that it can be.
It's not really a universal law of course but I think it can be applied in some clases

Well, as an atheist, I don't expect to live life without consequences. I just don't need them to come from a sky fairy after my death.

I understand consequences in THIS life, and I also understand the Golden Rule completely without the benefit of religion.

The atheists I know personally in my life are the most ethical and caring people I know.

All that lack of belief in religion does for us is free us up from an extra heaping helping of guilt for just being human, something that many religions, especially Christianity, pile on peoples' plates until they groan from the weight of it.

Originally posted by ingeniouslycorrupt

Originally posted by emjoi
Jana, I guess you've got to realise that you've stepped into a vipers nest in this forum. You have the extremes in this place from both sides of the track, and so you were always going to get some extreme replies.

Your faith works well for you, so be happy with that. Don't let this place mess that up. All that would do is take away a part of what makes you a whole person.

I read this reply and was kind of unnerved. Christiany is always trying to convert people to their religion. You just stated to not let the extreme athiest comments mess up Jana's faith. I find it oddly amusing that you have the guts to say don't change to what they are so blatantly infront of us all, but you want other people to gain faith in Christiany.

So much for balance??

Okay, a big problem with a forum like this is that everyone takes extreme stances. Atheists need to paint all Christians with the most negative brush possible, Christians do likewise with Atheists.
And much of the troubles we see in the world are cause by exactly that sort of stance. Simplifying, demonizing groups of people who don't exactly align with your point of view.

I am Atheist/Agnostic/Undecided/Unconvinced/Whatever, just for reference.
I am not trying to convert anyone in any direction.

The Christians I have personal contact with are on the whole pretty nice people. I can see the good their religion does for them. Socially, emotionally, morally. My wife is a devout Catholic. It doesn't matter what the Christians did in the Crusades, or what Priests have done to little children, or what the Pope thinks, or whether Noah really built an Ark or not.
I just look at the people and see that they have something that works for them, and if I was to by some great feat of argument convince them that they were Wrong and should give up their religion, all I would be doing was to be taking away from them something.
Nothing given, just something taken away.

If Indians lost their Hinduism, if Chinese stopped praying to their Confucian ancestors, if Buddhist monks in Tibet became suited businessmen.
It'd just remove some of the poetry of humanity.
We'd become sensible and logical and a bit more boring.

Doesn't matter if their Truth is The Truth. Doesn't matter if they are Right.
But that's another thread.

(Here endeth the rave)
(Lots of editing to get the damn quotes working right)


[edit on 15-8-2007 by emjoi]

Same stale arguments. Can't you guys come up with anything new? i've stopped pleading with you to stop the arguing, that does no good. See if you can find something new to run by me. I have something new to run by you.
Christianity is not the only religion that I've studied. I once studied witchcraft. I once worked in nightclubs and drank too much. Thank God, that part is behind me. It's great waking up without a hangover!

Have you not figured out that ATS is one big stale argument?

I'm an atheist. Not because I choose to be. I have tried believing in God, but I can't. If you think atheists are just out to live life without regrets, you're wrong. Most (if not all) of us would love to believe in a heaven and a God who would promise to let us live in perfect harmony with fellow humans.

Know this: I have never in my life met an atheist who completely lacked basic ethics and morals. As a matter of fact, I'm proud to say that I have higher ethical standards than any of my "Christian friends". I know this for a fact, so don't just tell me it is my ego playing out.

As an atheist, I believe everyone in the world has only one chance to live. I believe life is much more precious of a thing than even the bible makes it out to be. In short, I hate rape, murder, genocide, and prejudice. I believe that, as fellow human beings, we owe it to each other to make the most out of our short time here.

I mentioned that I have a better moral code than my Christian peers. I'm a junior in high school; all my Christian friends want to do with their life is make money and then die and go to heaven. What do I want? I want to become a writer, a person who speaks out for the poor trembling masses who are stuck in a vicious system that they did not create. I want to promote peace, love, and empathy as the true next step in human evolution.

# Money. Sympathy, not greenbacks, is the answer. I know it. As for God and Heaven, they can wait until things are settled out here.

Just in case some of you think that I am one of those dumbed down people who believe in God and the bible, because it was spoon-fed to me, and I'm not intelligent enough to make a rational choice; I guess I should insert here that I have an IQ of 169. For those of you who don't understand the scale; Einstein had an IQ of 182. I made 2 grades in one year. the school wanted to move me up again, but my mom said, No! She felt like I would miss other important things.
I attended college. I studied many courses. The hard part was choosing what I really wanted to do. I set out one time to get a law degree, then changed my mind and went after a medical degree, then changed my mind and decided I wanted to teach. Decisions, Decisions!!! And yes. I've studied science. I got very good grades.
I wish you could understand that when a true Christian approaches you, that it's not from a position of superiority. That there is something we've found that has brought us such peace and unspeakable joy, that it's nearly impossible to keep to ourselves. It was meant to be shared. If someone approaches you with any other concept than, "The Good News!" It's possible that they are misguided into thinking that they can earn brownie points into heaven, rather than the true love of the message.

What does IQ have to do with anything? I'm highly intelligent also, but intelligence does not make one a believer or not a believer.

I hate it when people come up to tell me the "good news."

I've heard it. I have studied it and other systems of spirituality in depth and probably know the Bible better than a lot of highly devout Christians do. I've not only heard the "good news" I find it completely unnecessary.

It's impossible for me to believe in because it doesn't fit with what I can see and experience in the real world. There is no evidence for it other than a book written by other believers. There is no difference between the Bible and any other ancient historical/religious text. Bible, Bhagavad Gita, Egyptian Book of the Dead, it's all the same to me.

Religion was for a time when people didn't know how things worked. Now we either do understand how things work, or we know we will be able to figure it out someday. The god is in the gaps and the gaps get smaller with every new discovery, with every completed research project.

It's not good news to me, it's brainwashing memes I would prefer the door-to-door proselytizers would keep to themselves.

Originally posted by TheStarrunner
I'm an atheist. Not because I choose to be. I have tried believing in God, but I can't. If you think atheists are just out to live life without regrets, you're wrong.

As an atheist, I believe everyone in the world has only one chance to live. I believe life is much more precious of a thing than even the bible makes it out to be. In short, I hate rape, murder, genocide, and prejudice. I believe that, as fellow human beings, we owe it to each other to make the most out of our short time here.

I mentioned that I have a better moral code than my Christian peers. I'm a junior in high school; all my Christian friends want to do with their life is make money and then die and go to heaven. What do I want? I want to become a writer, a person who speaks out for the poor trembling masses who are stuck in a vicious system that they did not create. I want to promote peace, love, and empathy as the true next step in human evolution.

# Money. Sympathy, not greenbacks, is the answer. I know it. As for God and Heaven, they can wait until things are settled out here.

Bravo My Friend! Good for you! I'm sorry that you have such poor excuses for Christian friends. But in your age group, they probably have not reached the maturity level that you have. You hang in there. You have some great morals to be proud of. Don't be angry at God because of what men do.