Hugo Chavez Takes Over Venezuelan TV Station

Originally posted by jsobecky
You are talking theoretical here. There is no pure socialistic society in existence. It cannot exist because it goes against human nature.

True no purely socialist society exists, but there are many places, Europe in general
where Democratic Socialism is a major sociopolitical factor.

As for human nature, I have to disagree with you.

Socialism requires victims to extort from. Sooner or later, you run out of host systems, then the parasites die.

Socialism requires equality, and people willing to work to better themselves and
humanity as a whole, it in no way requires a victim-class.

Socialism cannot create wealth, it can only extort it from the productive members of society.

Socialism is not meant to be a wealth creating system, it is meant to be at first a wealth
redistribution system, but in the long term it's meant to be a system that eradicates the
concept of wealth all together.

What if? It has not been proven.

And a truly free nation should be able to stand up to criticism. We in the US allow dissenting groups to be funded from the outside; that's what makes us so strong.

We don't allow people to go on major national channels and tell people to overthrow the government.

If we were really so great on the freedom of the press thing(we are ranked 53rd)
than stations like Al Jazeera would be relatively easy to access.

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by stumason

To be honest, I never knew he said that.

I hope you don't mind if I try and find a translation though. It's not that I don't believe you, I just prefer to see things for myself..

Stumason...we have discussed this many times in the past, and you were discussing in other threads related to this topic where i have posted the videos, and when i asked Marg, who speaks Spanish, to watch the video and see whether nor not i was saying the truth...

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Muaddib]

I do vaguely recall such a conversation....

Sorry, brain cells have taken a beating over the years, so my memory is not to be relied upon 100% .. Wacky tobaccy for you...

Ok fair enough. The guy is like a Dictatorial limpet, it would seem.

So, you have me sold on that point, but even so, he did win the election that was declared fair by the EU, the Carter Commission (or whatever it's called) and the UN. So for the time being, it would seem he does have the support of the majority.

Muaddib, have you seen the film?
Those seem to be rather sweeping statements. How do you know whatever they say inb the film are all lies? Don't forget, they were there on the ground witnessing what was happening, not cherry picking quotes and editing video to distort in favour of a particular point of view.

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Britguy]

Originally posted by stumason
.................
So, you have me sold on that point, but even so, he did win the election that was declared fair by the EU, the Carter Commission (or whatever it's called) and the UN. So for the time being, it would seem he does have the support of the majority.

stumason, many claim that the "election process in Cuba" is also fair, when it is not. Carter himself has said in the past that Cuba is not a "state sponsored terrorist nation", and has even implied that Cuba is a wonderful place for Cubans, yet there are many terrorists who seek refuge in Cuba, including former black panther members who have murdered police officers, and other people in the States, as well as members from other terrorist groups, such as ETA, the IRA, etc, etc..

Cuba has provided “limited support” to designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations, as well as safe haven for terrorists, such as members of the Basque terrorist group ETA—despite a November 2003 public request from the Spanish government to deny them sanctuary. The State Department also says that Colombia's two leftist rebel groups—the National Liberation Army (ELN) and the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), both of which regularly carry out acts of terrorism—maintain a “permanent presence” in Cuba. But experts agree that the Castro government ceased arming or training the former group in 1991 and never gave military support to the latter. The Colombian government, the United Nations, and the European Union all say that Cubahas played a useful role in advancing peace talks with the rebels. Moreover, both rebel groups also have offices in many other Latin American capitals and in many European capitals.

www.cfr.org...

Other nations such as Spain have asked castro not to give refuge to Basque terrorists, yet they continuously do so. Even if this is out of topic, it does show the "Carter Commission" and Carter himself has lied in the past in order to help Communists such as castro and Chavez.

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Muaddib]

You are talking theoretical here. There is no pure socialistic society in existence. It cannot exist because it goes against human nature.

Before posting this I will tell you that I'm more in favor to capitalism but to a limit.
One notion of socialism is that the state provides services from public institutions like health care , public services, state pension
The notion of socialism is giving every one a equal chance while capitalism does not arbitrate the market.
There is good and bad in all of them.
For example in socialism it's good that every one gets an equal chance but bad that you can not evolve beiond some limits.
In capitalism you can evolve as much as you like but it can have a bad outcome for the little people.

As big corporations grow the small ones die, for example a new K mart comes in to town, all the other bussines in that small town that were grocery stores, fish markets, clothing stores and so on will suffer...people prefere to go in to one place to get all they need to shop, general motors fierd alot of emploies in it's home town after closing down and moving in another direction, because every one in that small town was dependent on GM and worked at GM , since the big company moved away it left in poverty a whole town, the city was called flynt I believe, most of the people in that town were evicted out in to the streets because there was no money any more to pay the rent.

What socialism does it makes sure that the little guy gets a chance by puting a limit to the biger one, so little owned bussineses get a chance of evolving them selfs, while it does this tho it creates other problems, it's legislation makes it not imposible but very hard to accive total success as a bussines owner, I'm talking milions and milions of dolars of course, but there are exceptions of monopol in socialism also, but it's harder to get there.
I believe that some where in betwen of this 2 economical ways is the answer, of course that is just my opinion.

To state that an economical policy leads directly to a political flavor like comunism then I must insist you are wrong.
It's another thing if they chose socialism, comunism can also chose capitalism, just look at china, it's the bigest comunist country on earth, and it's corporate free while it's sistem regarding people in general with out economical implications is not.

Originally posted by Britguy
Muaddib, have you seen the film?
Those seem to be rather sweeping statements. How do you know whatever they say inb the film are all lies? Don't forget, they were there on the ground witnessing what was happening, not cherry picking quotes and editing video to distort in favour of a particular point of view.

Yes, I have seen it.

I have provided videos in Spanish, and asked those spanish speaking members who have been defenders of Chavez to watch them and see for themselves whether i said the truth or not, so noone can cherry pick what is being said and edit videos to spread an agenda.

How do i know what that video says is a lie? Because Chavez himself has been caught on video and audio as the person who called for violence against Venezuelans, he has called for harrasment and for Venezuelans to be fired for voting against him in referendums, etc, etc...

Originally posted by Britguy
Muaddib, have you seen the film?
Those seem to be rather sweeping statements. How do you know whatever they say inb the film are all lies? Don't forget, they were there on the ground witnessing what was happening, not cherry picking quotes and editing video to distort in favour of a particular point of view.

Yes, I have seen it.

I have provided videos in Spanish, and asked those spanish speaking members who have been defenders of Chavez to watch them and see for themselves whether i said the truth or not, so noone can cherry pick what is being said and edit videos to spread an agenda.

How do i know what that video says is a lie? Because Chavez himself has been caught on video and audio as the person who called for violence against Venezuelans, he has called for harrasment and for Venezuelans to be fired for voting against him in referendums, etc, etc...

Originally posted by iori_komei
........................

We don't allow people to go on major national channels and tell people to overthrow the government.

Show me where there was a call for a violent overthrow of Chavez....

The people were "peacefully protesting", they were not armed going towards the palace shooting in the air....

when the police and Chavistas became violent there were some protesters who responded in kind, but in the videos i have posted in the past it can be seen that the protesters were peaceful, until shots were fired at them and many were killed.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Show me where there was a call for a violent overthrow of Chavez....

I did'nt say violent.

And I was more pointing something out about America, not backing President Chávez.

Originally posted by iori_komei

I did'nt say violent.

And I was more pointing something out about America, not backing President Chávez.

People protest in the U.S. against president Bush and they are not detained unless they start throwing bottles, and resort to violence...


To keep this in perspective, here is some of what Chavez has done to supress freedom of expression in Venezuela.

Venezuela: Curbs on Free Expression Tightened
(Santiago, March 24, 2005) — Amendments to Venezuela’s Criminal Code that entered into force last week may stifle press criticism of government authorities and restrict the public’s ability to monitor government actions, Human Rights Watch said today.

“By broadening laws that punish disrespect for government authorities, the Venezuelan government has flouted international human rights principles that protect free expression,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. “While countries across Latin America are moving to repeal such laws, Venezuela has enacted further restrictions on the press that will shield officials from public scrutiny.”

The amendments extend the scope of existing provisions that make it a criminal offense to insult or show disrespect for the president and other government authorities. Venezuela’s measures run counter to a continent-wide trend to repeal such “disrespect” (or “desacato”) laws. In recent years, Argentina, Costa Rica, Paraguay, and Peru have already repealed such laws, and other countries like Chile and Panama are currently considering legislation that would do so.

The human rights bodies of the United Nations and of the Organization of American States have repeatedly urged states to repeal such provisions.

Link


[edit on 28-5-2007 by Muaddib]

I really do not understand certain people, writing posts in this topic. They are so angry at Socialism, that their only wish is to spread this anger and fear and paranoia towards Socialism by constantly writing against countries with this kind of socials structure. Why is that? Why is it such a BIG deal, if a TV station is attacked by the president of a country? At least he did not say, "Let's Bomb Them!", like some presidents like to do. Anyway, you have such problems, concerning a TV station, that is not even in YOUR country - when governments of countries YOU live in, are currently spying on your mobile phones, reading your emails, watching you through a gazillion cameras, recoding every activiting you do on the internet - but that is okey. The Evil always comes in a form of a socialism, right?

I lived in a Socalist country once upon a time, and I can assure you that things are not nearly as bad as SOME people would like you to see. It is pretty cool to have a free medical service, free education and that you really have a feeling, that the system works for the PEOPLE, not the other way around, like in Capitalism, where people support the pyramid of power on their backs, and the top 1% owns everything, while the ordinary common man can just live and work and drown in taxes. I have seen the transition from Socialism to Capitalism - and I can spot the changes and the differences and the dark sides of both social structures.

How ever you try to turn it - both systems are good and bad at the same time.

Now, if that makes Chavez a dictator...



...then Bush must be EMPEROR himself!





“The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting.” - Charles Bukowsky

Some of the other moves by Chavez and the Chavistas.

Venezuela: Court Orders Trial of Civil Society Leaders
(Washington, July 8, 2005) — In ordering the trial of four civil society leaders on dubious charges of treason, a Venezuelan court has assented to government persecution of political opponents, Human Rights Watch said today.

Yesterday, a court in Caracas ordered that María Corina Machado and Alejandro Plaz be tried on treason charges brought by a public prosecutor because their nongovernmental organization, Súmate, accepted foreign funds for a program that encouraged citizen participation in a referendum on President Hugo Chavez’s presidency in 2004. Two other Súmate leaders, Luis Enrique Palacios and Ricardo Estévez, will also be tried on charges of complicity with this alleged crime.

hrw.org...

anyways, here is another story from Venezuela where tens of thousands of Venezuelans took to the streets two days ago trying to stop Chavez from closing the TV station.

Venezuelans march against closure of TV station
Sat May 26, 2007 2:33PM EDT

By Brian Ellsworth

CARACAS (Reuters) - Tens of thousands of Venezuelan protesters marched on Saturday to the Caracas headquarters of an anti-government television station, which is being forced off the air after President Hugo Chavez's administration refused to renew its broadcasting license.

Waving flags with the logo of RCTV, demonstrators packed the streets of the capital where news anchors and soap opera stars slammed the imminent closure of the opposition channel.

The government is not renewing RCTV's license after 53 years on the air because of accusations that the broadcaster participated in a bungled 2002 coup against Chavez, incited violent demonstrations and aired immoral programming.

www.reuters.com...

That is the claim of Chavez for shutting down the TV station, even though there is proof that the only person who "incited violence' was him when he activated the "Avila Plan".

Souljah, why don't you stay on topic?.....

Everytime you want to change every topic to bashing contest against the U.S.....

So typical of "revolutionaries"...

People protest in the U.S. against president Bush and they are not detained unless they start throwing bottles, and resort to violence...

It's true, if people want impeachment then I don't think that the goverment will do anything, but instigating to overhrow an elected president by force as long as he is supported by the majoraty is clear treason.
It's one thing to go on tv and say, we want impeachment for this president, and another thing on tv to come on air and say come on people let's march down at the white house and take him down, I would say okay, but with only one condition, that the people support this.
Can you just imagine CNN saying this? "come on let's go torch the white house people" those people would get arested on spot by federal agents for treason.

Originally posted by pepsi78
............
It's one thing to go on tv and say, we want impeachment for this president, and another thing on tv to come on air and say come on people let's march down at the white house and take him down, I would say okay, but with only one condition, that the people support this.
Can you just imagine CNN saying this? "come on let's go torch the white house people" those people would get arested on spot by federal agents for treason.

Yes, but the Venezuelan TV station did not call for any violence.

There is a big difference between calling for violence, and supporting a peaceful protest.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Souljah, why don't you stay on topic?.....

But I am staying on topic - I am only spreading the borders of debate. See some people think it is wrong to close down a TV station and call that dictatorship - well others think that a dictatorship is something far more wicked then just that. So - how many countries has Venezula invaded in past 50 years and how many countries have United States invaded (to DEFEND themselves against the evils of socialism of course)?

Everytime you want to change every topic to bashing contest against the U.S.....

I am comparing two social structures here.

If you did not notice that, and can quickly assume, that I am merly bashing United States, then I guess you should stop reading my posts. I think that should help you very much. Thank You!

BS, you are once again trying to change any and every topic into your typical "let's change the topic and bash the U.S. instead".

Originally posted by Souljah

I am comparing two social structures here.

Which would be a thing of beauty if it was the topic, it isn't. Let's keep on the topic please.

Originally posted by Muaddib
BS, you are once again trying to change any and every topic into your typical "let's change the topic and bash the U.S. instead".

He was not bashing the U.S. in any way, Capitalism, yes, Bush, it could be construed that
way simply because of the picture, but all in all he was not bashing the U.S.


Nor was he to terribly off topic.

[edit on 5/28/2007 by iori_komei]

Now, if that makes Chavez a dictator...

...then Bush must be EMPEROR himself!


You forgot about this one:lol
Comunist stile.



[edit on 28-5-2007 by pepsi78]