Originally posted by stumason
America can't really afford to blockade Venezuela..Not with all that Oil... So what will they do? What can they do?

I think Chavez is trying to get a US backlash, but the Yanks aren't biting. He's done lots of things to get the Americans to slap them with a embargo, but US is wise just to ignore him.

What of the other extreme-left, SA Presidents recently elected. What are they up too?

I dunno :S but I feel that there is something I should know

Originally posted by Muaddib
The Chavistas see Chavez as someone higher and better than Jesus Christ. "Chavismo" has become a religion.

There's a big difference between people considering someone to be such and a state enforced ideology of it.

Chavez has claimed that Jesus was a socialist, and even more a Communist.

A socialist, perhaps, but a communist no.

My own personal opinion on that of course.


Anyways, does it really matter if he believes it and says what he believes in that regard?

Originally posted by iori_komei

Chavez has claimed that Jesus was a socialist, and even more a Communist.

Anyways, does it really matter if he believes it and says what he believes in that regard?

I think it may of hit a nerve in "Christian" America. You know how they feel about Jeebus and how they feel about Socialists... God forbid you put the two together!

Originally posted by iori_komei
Anyways, does it really matter if he believes it and says what he believes in that regard?

Yes, it does.

its tapping into people's belief and saying

"hey, you know Jesus right? well..he was a socialist, just like me!".

You are exploiting religious belief to gain and control power. Just like the President of Iran and even Saddam portrayed himself to be a Muslim so the Iraqi's supported him.

Originally posted by pepsi78


I'm sorry but what has this got to do with democracy, you could be democratic but broke as hell, unemployment and poverty has to do with the economical factors, it has nothing to do with freedom of speach or any other freedoms.

United States is not exactly 100% literacy rate, there are alot of people that don't know how to read and write in the US, that means that I can read and write in english better then alot of people from your country in your own languege,
Some 40 milion people in United States are under minumum earnings in poverty by statistics.

I don't really see your point, economics are not related to rights and freedoms of the people, money in general has nothing to do with it, they are 2 branches , one referes to economics and the other to democracy.

Why compare Venezuela with life in the US; this thread is about Venezuela.

That is a very common diversionary tactic used here.

Anyway, I was responding to this statement:

People should fear a military regime than a radical socialist.

The economic and political systems are absolutley intertwined. You cannot separate one from the other. One dictates the other.

As for what it has to do with this thread, you have to ask yourself why such an oil-rich country has such a large incidence of poverty. And why Chavez needs to silence freedom of speech.

The answer is simple Economics 101: Guns or butter. Chavez has chosen guns, because he needs them to prop up his dictatorship.

Originally posted by jsobecky
As for what it has to do with this thread, you have to ask yourself why such an oil-rich country has such a large incidence of poverty. And why Chavez needs to silence freedom of speech.

Wouldn't be the first Oil rich nation to have grinding poverty. In fact, there are few that don't.

Originally posted by jsobecky
The answer is simple Economics 101: Guns or butter. Chavez has chosen guns, because he needs them to prop up his dictatorship.

Ironically, had he chosen butter, he wouldn't need to prop up his dictatorship.....

Why compare Venezuela with life in the US; this thread is about Venezuela.

That is a very common diversionary tactic used here.

Anyway, I was responding to this statement:

Because you can not base your statements regarding if a state is democratic or not by looking at how it's people are doing financialy.

The economic and political systems are absolutley intertwined. You cannot separate one from the other. One dictates the other.

Then france , italy, poland, as well as other europian countrys that have a socialist view on economy but that are democratic by providing rights to it's citizens are all dictatorships in your conclusion, but then again if I would
want to contradict you all the way I would say, hey look at china it looks more and more like a huge corporate capitalist nation, but it's sistem is not democratic is it, well 2 different things I would say then,
Economy has nothing to do with what you stated.



[edit on 28-5-2007 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by jsobecky

People should fear a military regime than a radical socialist.

The economic and political systems are absolutley intertwined. You cannot separate one from the other. One dictates the other.

A country being Socialist does not mean it will have a military regime or any sort of dictatorship.
Socialism, the true kind, not the kinds that have been warped to fit into other ideologies,
is democratic in nature.

As for what it has to do with this thread, you have to ask yourself why such an oil-rich country has such a large incidence of poverty. And why Chavez needs to silence freedom of speech.

Considering things were bad before he was president, and you can't fix things in a few years,
it's not surprising that there are still people in poverty.

As for the oil rich aspect, well he only nationalized the oil production in the last year or two,
so the flow of money from it is pretty new.

In regards to the freedom of speech thing, well, what if it turns out this station is getting
monetary support from say the CIA, I think, in such an instance the shutting down
of the station would be justifiable, however if it is just because of the criticism aspect,
than it is not right.

Originally posted by stumason
That is contrary to what is reported. The last election only last year was declared fair. It had some minor irregularities, but so did the UK election!

At one point, Chavez stated that he would not relinquish power regardless of what the election results were.

It's funny his supporters are the poor (which is not his creation, but previous Governments) and that his opponents are the Elite, US friendly, rich people though. You know, the one's who control(ed) the media....................

Yes, the ones who create the wealth. The ones who had resources that Chavez could steal.

And you think it's funny that those who have nothing to offer, but who stand to gain from nationalization of the country's resources, support Chavez? I would be surprised if the reactions were any different.

Originally posted by iori_komei
In regards to the freedom of speech thing, well, what if it turns out this station is getting
monetary support from say the CIA, I think, in such an instance the shutting down
of the station would be justifiable, however if it is just because of the criticism aspect,
than it is not right.

The station called for the overthrow of Chavez in 2002, and he didn't like it. Regarding the CIA, its more likely that their money would go to the opposition itself rather than TV stations.

Originally posted by stumason

That is contrary to what is reported. The last election only last year was declared fair. It had some minor irregularities, but so did the UK election!
...............

Stumason, i have given videos to speeches of Chavez, in Spanish as these videos are never translated into English for whatever reason, in the past, where he himself has said he would not get out of office, nomatter what the referendum voting said, that noone will get him out of office.

I even challenged those spanish speaking members who were saying the contrary and defending Chavez, to watch those videos and tell me what I said was not true. Noone responded, because that's exactly what Chavez has said in the past.

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Muaddib]

to my thinking both President Chavez and President Musharref
are made from the same cloth....
and right now one is more under fire than the other,

each President is engaging in acts that we Americans deem unfair, undemocratic, by Americans
(seeing the world through certain filters)


bottom line:
the TV channels license expired, and it won't be renewed,
that's a far cry from sending troops with fixed-bayonets to seize a
station during a telecast...throwing the telecast crew before a firing squad.

The appropriate thing is being done, to thwart any pirate telecasts;

the stations transmission infrastructure is being tuned over to the
authorities who will use the equipment to start a 'peoples' station
...& there may well be programs dealing with voicing opposition or
discussing Venezuelan policies, its too early to tell how this whole incident
will evolve.

Venezuela is doing things in Venezuelas way, not in the way the U.S. does it...
the takeover was/is being done in a civilized and law&order way,
many may not agree with the process or the event spin,
that's our perogative...
i give him a probationary for now....
& wait to see what develops further

Originally posted by Muaddib
Chavez has claimed that Jesus was a Communist, an anti-imperialist, which is not true. Chavez is just using religion because he knows most Venezuelans are religious.

It's still very different from forcing people to believe that their leader is in some way divine.

It's not like leaders throughout the ages, and even today don't do similar things,
when Bush says something about god, he knows that he is getting a sizable amount
of people to vote of or against something/someone.

Sorry to tell you that "your opinion" on him is wrong.

An opinion by its very definition and nature can not be wrong, if I had claimed
something as fact, than the right or wrong moniker could be used, but opinions are
opinions, neither right or wrong.

Opinions can be wrong when the "facts" show those "opinions" to be wrong.

Again, you are trying now to play with semantics, but opinions can be wrong.

Originally posted by iori_komei
It's still very different from forcing people to believe that their leader is in some way divine.

Thats what he is kinda doing.
He was in London, a year or two ago, visiting the Mayor of London (good old Ken)..the London Mayor is nicknamed "Red Ken" btw

Well, Chavez basically compared himself to Jesus and made himself out to be the Messiah.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Stumason, i have given videos to speeches of Chavez, in Spanish as these videos are never translated into English for whatever reason, in the past, where he himself has said he would not get out of office, nomatter what the referendum voting said, that noone will get him out of office.

I even challenged those spanish speaking members who were saying the contrary and defending Chavez, to watch those videos and tell me what I said was not true. Noone responded, because that's exactly what Chavez has said in the past.

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Muaddib]

To be honest, I never knew he said that.

I hope you don't mind if I try and find a translation though. It's not that I don't believe you, I just prefer to see things for myself..

St. Sudio, Chavez has shut off TV stations in the past. During the April 2002 protest/massacre, many Venezuelan TV stations were shut down, and Chavez himself stated so as he was talking to the Venezuelan public, trying to stop Venezuelans from uniting with the probably more than a million Venezuelans who took to the streets to protest against him. When he was afraid that they were getting closer to his "palace" he implemented the "Avila Plan", and the ensuing massacre that is well known aorund the world occurred at the hands of the militaries and Chavistas who opened fire against the peaceful protesters.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Opinions can be wrong when the "facts" show those "opinions" to be wrong.

Again, you are trying now to play with semantics, but opinions can be wrong.

If I stated that my opinion was fact and was correct, than yes it could be wrong,
however opinions in general are not subject to being right or wrong unless you state them as such.

And I am not playing semantics, nor have I at any point before now.

Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by iori_komei
It's still very different from forcing people to believe that their leader is in some way divine.

Thats what he is kinda doing.
He was in London, a year or two ago, visiting the Mayor of London (good old Ken)..the London Mayor is nicknamed "Red Ken" btw

Well, Chavez basically compared himself to Jesus and made himself out to be the Messiah.

It is still vastly different from enforcing the ideology on the people and discipling
those who do not accept it.



[edit on 5/28/2007 by iori_komei]