Hugo Chavez Takes Over Venezuelan TV Station, page 7
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reply posted on 28-5-2007 @ 08:33 PM by Muaddib
Directly from a "Revolutionary/Communist website".

But Chavez also announced in that same program the creation of PetroAmerica, which like other massive oil projects in South America will likely cause massive environmental destruction and human suffering.

www.gnn.tv...

Yet what do environmental groups in Venezuela have to say?

Venezuela’s Environment Under Stress

Tuesday, Mar 01, 2005
.........
By: Jeroen Kuiper - Venezuelanalysis.com

Water pollution, gold, diamond and coal mining, oil drilling, gas exploration, wood logging, soil erosion: it all exists in Venezuela, and according to three environment NGOs in Caracas, the pressure on Venezuela’s environment under the rule of the Chavez government is increasing.

www.venezuelanalysis.com...

And before our resident "Revolutionary/Communist" responds to claim that "all those three groups are paid by the Capitalist petroleum pigs"...

The third interviewed NGO, Amigransa (Amigos de la Gran Sabana), has a more activist profile. “By principle, we don’t have employees”, emphasize Alicia Garcia and Maria Eugenia Bustamante, two of the activists of Amigransa. The activists pay for their activities themselves; they want to stay totally independent. “We are about ten active people, depending on the issue”, says Alicia Garcia. One of the successes that Amigransa is proud of is their successful campaign against British Petroleum (BP) a few years ago in the Orinoco delta: after a campaign of Amigransa, in which they proved that BP polluted the Orinoco Delta with its testing drills, they left. Amigransa seems to have the best overview on the overall state of environment in Venezuela.

www.venezuelanalysis.com...

Like religion, Chavez and other "Revolutionaries/Communists" are using environmental issues and concerns just to spread their agenda, even if they have worse environmental issues than most "Capitalist countries" after the so called "Revolutionaries/Communists" have taken power over their countries...

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Muaddib]


reply posted on 29-5-2007 @ 12:27 AM by Muaddib
Originally posted by sbob
.............

If the majority of the people want to peacefully replace him by referendum or election in the future.....His real worth as a man will be seen. And maybe the majority of the people in Venezuela in the future will like him more.


The Venezuelan people tried that, more than once, and everytime there were excuses given for not taking him out of office, even though the number of Venezuelans who voted to take Chavez out far exceeded the amount needed to do so according to the "new Constitution".

I just showed videos of Chavez stating clearly he will not be taken out of office, nomatter what the referendum outcome is, despite him claiming the contrary when he began to take control of Venezuela.

Venezuela is nothing like the U.S., the amount of Venezuelans who have taken to the streets, and have signed a referendum against Chavez would equal to more or less 10%-15% of the population in Venezuela or more. 10%-15% of Americans taking to the streets to protest against Bush would put the numbers of protesters at 30-45 million, yet the protesters in the U.S. have never even gotten close to a million protesters.

Also, in the U.S. police officers don't shoot to kill civilians for "peacefully protesting", yet in Venezuela it has happened.

In the U.S. people are not fired en mass for signing a referendum against president Bush, yet that has happened in Venezuela.

In the U.S. the media can freely criticize and even verbally attack the president, yet in Venezuela TV stations get shut down or are taken over by the government just for criticizing Chavez...

Sorry to burst the bubble of everyone who think so, but what is happening in the U.S., is nowhere close to what has been happening in Venezuela.

Anyways, the topic is about Venezuela...some will probably try once again to change the topic and bash at the U.S...

Chavez has even said he will be in office in 2011-2012 and beyond, and lets not forget that he has even "proposed" that he would stay in power for 25 years.

Hugo Chavez Suggests Holding Power For 25 Years
(AP) CARACAS, Venezuela President Hugo Chavez said Saturday that Venezuelan voters should have the chance to decide whether he should govern the country for the next 25 years.

Speaking at a stadium packed with supporters in central Lara state, Chavez said he would hold a referendum to put the question of his remaining in office to Venezuelans if the opposition pulls out of upcoming presidential elections.

"I am going to ask you, all the people, if you agree with Chavez being president until 2031," he said.

wbztv.com...

I wonder how impartial this is going to be when protesters have been harrassed, they have been fired en mass. TV and other communication media have been taken over by the Chavistas for criticizing Chavez etc...

Make no mistakes, i have said it for over 2 years, and will continue to say it, Chavez is doing step by step what castro did to Cuba.

[edit on 29-5-2007 by Muaddib]


reply posted on 29-5-2007 @ 01:07 AM by pepsi78

The Venezuelan people tried that, more than once, and everytime there were excuses given for not taking him out of office, even though the number of Venezuelans who voted to take Chavez out far exceeded the amount needed to do so according to the "new Constitution".

How do you know that is the majority of the people, acording the the Eu and the UN the election was clean and the majority voted for chaves.
If venesuela wants chaves let them have chaves, it's their choise and no one else.
I personaly don't like chaves, but if the venesuelans want him then who are you to say it should be otherwise.



I just showed videos of Chavez stating clearly he will not be taken out of office, nomatter what the referendum outcome is, despite him claiming the contrary when he began to take control of Venezuela.

A referendum can only hapen if the senate will pass a bill demanding the impeachment of the president.
If the bill will pass the senate with the vote of the majoraty of the senate then the president is officaly suspended.
Only after that the people will vote on the referendum if he should get back in office or not.
I don't know what referendum you are talking about, and I don't think you know what a referendum is.


U.S. have never even gotten close to a million protesters.

That is your opinion, the vietnam war says something else, in fact it was above one milion.

Also, in the U.S. police officers don't shoot to kill civilians for "peacefully protesting", yet in Venezuela it has happened.

They were returning fire.


[edit on 29-5-2007 by pepsi78]


reply posted on 29-5-2007 @ 04:53 AM by Muaddib
Originally posted by pepsi78

How do you know that is the majority of the people, acording the the Eu and the UN the election was clean and the majority voted for chaves.
If venesuela wants chaves let them have chaves, it's their choise and no one else.
I personaly don't like chaves, but if the venesuelans want him then who are you to say it should be otherwise.


Why? because in demonstrations by those Venezuelans who opose Chavez there have been as many and sometimes a lot more Venezuelans oposing Chavez than Chavistas.

During the April 2002 events it has been estimated that from 500,000 to 800,000 and some reports have the figure at a bit over a million Venezuelans took to the streets to protest against Chavez.

Of course you didn't see the bulk of these protesters close to the palace Miraflores because Chavez had mobilized all the troops, which included tanks and the mayority of Chavistas around the palace. While the Venezuelans who were demonstrating peacefully against Chavez were being shot at by the military, the police, and some Chavistas which have been identified from the videos taken that day.

Four of those Chavistas that were identified as shooters were Rafael Cabrices, Richard Peñalver, Henry Atencio, and Nicolás Rivera. They were put in prison for a year awaiting trial and then were released because supposedly there was no proof that they killed any of the demonstrators that were murdered that day.

How do you know that the mayority of Venezuelans don't want Chavez out when those who opose him have been able to gather as many and sometimes more people than the Chavistas have?


Originally posted by pepsi78
.................
I don't know what referendum you are talking about, and I don't think you know what a referendum is.


I gave a couple of videos which talk about the recall referendums done to get Chavez out of office. It happened at least twice.

If you don't know what referendums against Chavez I am talking about then you don't know enough of this topic.


UPDATED: 09:48, August 16, 2004
Referendum against Hugo Chavez to be held in Venezuela

english.people.com.cn...


Originally posted by pepsi78
That is your opinion, the vietnam war says something else, in fact it was above one milion.


First of all that was decades ago, when another president and another administration was in office...

Second the largest demonstration was estimated at 400,000, and much of this sentiment was also due to "some parts of the war such as the draft.

Some journalists didn't do much justice to some of the events which helped the "anti-war sentiment" such as the image of South Vietnamese Police Chief General Nguyen Ngoc Loan, who executed Viet Cong Captain Nguyen Van Lem. The journalist Eddie Adams just took a picture of the Police Chief General executing the Viet Cong Captain, but he didn't take pictures of the ditch where the Viet Cong Captain was found which had the bodies of 34 bound and murdered bodies of police and relatives, some of whom were close to the Police Chief General.

Such images, like the image of the Viet cong Captain being executed without reporting the motives behind the Police Chief General's execution instilled a sense of "american injustice" among the young American protesters at the time, but they didn't know much in what context such occurrences happened.

anyways, this is not about Viet Nam....so let's stay on topic....

Originally posted by pepsi78
They were returning fire.


BS, I have given videos in the past where you see many of the people who were shot did not have any weapons and noone close to them had weapons....

Here is another account as to what happened that day in English.
caracaschronicles.blogspot.com...

[edit on 29-5-2007 by Muaddib]


reply posted on 29-5-2007 @ 04:53 AM by Souljah
Originally posted by Muaddib
How about you "concentrate on staying on topic" and post about Chavez's involvement in "spreading the "Global Permanent Revolution" through "violence and has called for the violent overthrow of every Capitalist system in the world...including and foremost the United States...



You are not Serious here, are you? Well I just hope not! If you seriously belive, that a puppet like Chavez has the power and the means to start a so-called "Global Permanent Revolution", then I am sorry to say, but you seem to have some problems here. And if you REALLY think, that he has the politica, economial and military power to "OVERTHROW EVERY CAPITALIST SYSTEM IN THE WORLD" then you should have you head examined for a very serious case of Socialismophobia.




Why don't you talk about the claims of Chavez, among some other revolutionary/Communists like yourself, who claim "the world will be destroyed because of Capitalism and hence Capitalism must be overthrowed"?... To Chavez it doesn't matter if the environmental laws in Venezuela have actually gotten worse since he has been in office... He uses anything and everything, like some members around here, to blame Capitalism and seeks the "overthrow of Capitaslim."

Actually the World as we know it IS going to be destroyed because of Greed and Corruption of the people who are in power - and most of those most powerful ones, who have most money and most political power are from Capitalist systems, are they not? So Chavez is kind of right. But he is also a crazy dictator, who thinks he shall "Conquer the World". But I know why you are writing this - you do not belive that sincerly; you just want to spread more of that socialismophobia, which must be engraved in every man, woman and child, so that they fear countries like Cuba and Venezuela.


But Communists/Revoluitionaries like souljah always claim "it is only Capitalism that wants to overthrow poor people like Chavez, yet he says nothing about the ultimate goals of the "Revolutionary/Communists" on overthrowing Capitalism in every nation through a violent revolution...

So - just one question:

HOW MANY TIMES HAVE UNITED STATES TRIED TO OVERTHROW SOCIALIST/COMMUNIST REGIMES IN THE PAST AND HOW MANY TIMES IT WAS THE OTHER WAY AROUND?


I have given in the past links to "Revolutionary websites" of Venezuela where Chavez's speeches can be read and shown that he has called for the violent overthrow of Capitalism, and the first country to go according to Chavez must be the U.S....

And you do think that it is going to happen and that we should fear that day coming, just like Saddam who had weapns of (m)ass destruction and all he wanted to do was to attack United States one last time, before they wipe out his face from this planet for ever? Is that it?


But i guess according to our resident "Revolutionary/Communist souljah", as long as it is the "Revolutionaries/Communists" doing the overthrowing it is alright...but if any Venezuelan group in "Venezuela" decides in large numbers to stand behind Capitalism and instead to accept funds from the U.S. or other Capitalist countries, because Chavez will not give them money for this, and decide to make "peaceful" demonstrations against the "Revolutionary/Communist Chavez" and other such systems, it is the end of the world, the U.S. is evil for giving money to Venezuelans and other "working people" who don't want to be ruled by Communism/Revolutionaries"....



I just love how you call me a COMMUNIST.



Dude - you listen to Bushies for a far too long time; it is not all BLACK and WHITE as you want to see it; and if I am against a Capitalist system, I am not a Communist. It does not work this way in real life you know. Anyway, as I have written before, how many interventions in South America were sponsored by United States, who wanted to overthrow DEMOCRATICALLY elected regimes, just because they were based on Socialism? Do you want me to referesh your memory - but I think you do know how many times that happened. Hell, if you were from Cuba, they you do remember, certain Cuban Plane Bomber Being a CIA AGENT! Or am I quoting a SOCIALIST WEBSITE again? So I ask you again - how many times have Socialist/Communist regimes attacked United States in past 50 years? I would be more then happy to sent plenty of information your way about the history of CIA interventions in South America, or more.

[edit on 29/5/07 by Souljah]


reply posted on 29-5-2007 @ 05:14 AM by Souljah
Originally posted by Muaddib
It does not matter what you think...the truth of the matter is that Chavez has made such calls to overthrow Capitalist countries, and again "THIS THREAD IS ABOUT WHAT CHAVEZ IS DOING IN VENEZUELA, NOT ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL VENDETTA AGAINST THE UNITED STATES"....

Yes it does matter what I think - because this is a debate forum, and we exchange opinion, so it kind of does matter what I think. Well to me it does, but as it looks, to you it does not, which makes you a very poor debate partner. And if you still think I am on a "personal vendetta against an entire country", then you should have you head examined for a serious case of Souljahophobia, which is also very dangerous disease and no cure has yet been found. I can speak freely and openly against anybody, any government and any group of people who call themselves politicians or presidents or leaders or whatever. That is my RIGHT and my DUTY as a citizen of democratis society which we - the people of the west - live in now. And if you mistake that right for something of a vendetta, which has a whole negative meaing, then you are no better then the man you claim I am; a vengance seeking indivudual, on a path of personal vendetta against Socialism - or basicly against ANYTHING that is against current U.S. government.


I find it very enlightening that again you don't want to discuss what Chavez is doing to shut down media programs that are critical of him, or even about the demonstrations of Venezuelans who opose this move, and these demonstrations have lasted over a week now...

In my first post here I have already spoken about what this TV station did in order to earn themselves such a status, and they can be happy that they were not charged with TREASON - which a TV station in United States would be, in a similar situation which happened in Venezual in the 2002 failed coup. And who really cares about protestors these days? I saw several protests against more serious things then this, and you know what? NOTHING HAPPENED! Nothing changed! So please stop acting, as this is the end of the world as we know it, if Chavez shuts down a TV station.

That is ALL I wanted to say - now I am out of this topic and this thread and you can spread your pro-bushy-socialismophobic-propaganda however you like and in whatever ammounts you desire. And Peace with You.

Souljah Out.


reply posted on 29-5-2007 @ 05:20 AM by Souljah
Second Venezuela TV is under fire

Venezuela's government has accused a TV station of inciting a murder attempt on President Hugo Chavez, hours after taking another network off the air. It said footage shown on Globovision implicitly called for Mr Chavez to be killed. The station denies the claim.

Well, inciting a murder attempt on a president is something serious I think.


reply posted on 29-5-2007 @ 05:52 AM by the_sentinal
Yep, a second TV station is being targeted by the Chavez regime, but the charges sound bogus too me.

www.nzherald.co.nz...

The Chavez government is also filing a suit against CNN for linking him to Al Qadea apparently Chavez is going after anyone who says anything negative about him.


reply posted on 29-5-2007 @ 06:01 AM by infinite
Originally posted by the_sentinal
Yep, a second TV station is being targeted by the Chavez regime, but the charges sound bogus too me.

www.nzherald.co.nz...

The Chavez government is also filing a suit against CNN for linking him to Al Qadea apparently Chavez is going after anyone who says anything negative about him.


Yeah, I was just about to post that.

It seems that he is now targeting anyone who doesn't agree with his dogma, which is now looking like a cult of personality is building.


reply posted on 29-5-2007 @ 08:48 AM by infinite
Originally posted by the_sentinal
It baffles me, why the Venezuelan's voted this guy in?? or did they, it's not hard to rig an election if you can stir enough fear in the hearts of the election officials.


the thing is, he claims to be socialist..or apart of the bolivarism movement.

He is far from a socialist or even a communist. Anyone who has read Marx (myself included) will tell you that Chavez doesn't stick to the doctrine. In a Socialist or even Communist state, you aim to overthrow and remove the State. Not make it powerful. This is what Chavez is doing.

He is not nationalizing the industry, oil, TV, etc to distribute the wealth, but to gain more control. Of course, he has a good record of distributing the wealth and is now planning to redistribute the land. But thats not the point. Its giving with one hand and taking from the other.

If he was a true socialist, he wouldn't give a damn about how long he stays in power. Heck, he would remove the power he has and give it back to the people.

Socialism is;


a political or economic theory in which community members own all property, resources, and the means of production, and control the distribution of goods.


"community members" i.e the people. Not Chavez himself or his supporters. Thats a ruling elite. Mr Hugo has control of the means of production, resources and distribution of goods. Not the people. Plus, if he stays in power for ever, then the people have no control at all. Again, that is not socialism.

And by taking a TV station away from workers, that would make Marx himself turn in his grave. Socialist do not take from the workers.

We on th left are guilty of sympathizing with leaders who pretend to be socialist or even left wing.
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