Mormon Temple Ceremony is this real or fiction?, page 4
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reply posted on 5-6-2007 @ 01:54 AM by DragonsDemesne
I'm a Mormon, and while I haven't been through the temple ceremony in question, from what I know about it, this does look like it is probably it. I didn't read through it all, but it seems to be the real deal. Incidentally, most Mormons will probably be rather annoyed that you posted it, since we consider it sacred and don't like to discuss it. I don't mind talking a little about it in generalities, but out of respect I don't like to get into specifics. Now, I did mention that I hadn't been through this ceremony before, but I did see a copy of it once, and I skimmed through it, and from what little I can remember, this seems to be a close/exact match of what I saw at that time.

I don't know a lot about Masonry, but from what I understand, it's pretty obvious that there are some similarities, the number of such similarities being heavily in dispute depending on the source.

brotherforchrist: Yes Smith borrowed heavily from Freemasonry, I would be interested to hear from some Mormons on this, although I don't believe that they can speak about what goes on in Temple, and I have heard that they are less than truthful when it comes to revealing temple ceremony.Also I have read that they believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers.I also would like to know the reason that they wear the special Mormon underwear. Bear in mind I am not passing judgment on their religion, I am just curious as to what their theology is , as it is kept pretty secret generally.


While this is certainly subject to debate, the Mormon belief is that Smith received the ceremony directly from God, and that this same ceremony existed in ancient times. Some Mormons I have read have theorized that the Masonic rituals stem from Solomon's temple, and that is why they are so similar. And no, we aren't supposed to speak about the specifics of the temple ceremony out of respect for it. There is no prohibition against me saying, for example, that Mormon marriages are performed in temples, or that there is a baptismal font where people are baptised in proxy for their ancestors. Those are in fact, the two main purposes of a temple in our religion.

I would hope that no Mormon lies about what goes on in the temple, as you suggest. Most will simply say something like 'no comment' if asked to talk about something that they feel would violate the sacredness to discuss.

The Jesus and Lucifer as brothers thing: short answer is yeah. All human beings are children of God, and that includes you, me, Jesus, Lucifer, and everyone else. I think on the Mormon FAQ in my signature someone asked about that and I went into more detail, so I'll refer you to that.

The 'special underwear' is referred to as the 'temple garments'. It is worn under the clothing after you go through the temple ceremony, as a reminder of it. It's not really that different than a Catholic having a cross on their wall to remember Christ by.

ChrisJr03:
Most of what you say there depends on the individual. Some Mormons associate pretty much only with other Mormons, while others will associate with anybody. (the woman Whaaa asked out was obviously one of the former) I don't know about your uncle's case specifically, but I could see it happening that if he had quit paying tithing, that he would be removed from a position of leadership. It is one of the things we do as a sign of sacrifice, and a leader can hardly be called such if he isn't willing to show by example.

Annee:
From what I have read, Smith was a Mason, but not until after the temple ceremony had come out. However, to play devil's advocate, many of those close to Smith, such as his brother Hyrum, and Brigham Young, who would eventually be his successor, were Masons long before the temple ceremony came into existence. I do not recall the exact dates offhand, but I think Smith became a Mason in the early 1840s, and the temple ceremony came out in the mid 1830s. I think I researched and answered that question in my FAQ, as well.

Isaac:
Yeah, I never went on a mission, either, and I don't think of myself as any less a Mormon because of it. (I'm 25, now) Your point about the temple rituals, mission, etc, not granting salvation is also a good one. You don't get instantly saved just because you were in the temple for an hour or two. Salvation requires a lifetime of work, by trying to live a life as Christlike as possible.


reply posted on 5-6-2007 @ 11:17 AM by The Axeman
Originally posted by Annee
My husband was born and raised Mormon. He's also an avid reader with excellent retention. If I have questions I ask him.


Fine and good. Read it, don't read it, it really doesn't matter to me. You are the one dealing in absolutes here, not me.

However - I am fully aware of all you are presenting. I am fully aware of different views on how much connection there is between Mormons and the Masons.


Apparently not "fully", judging by your previous posts...

There are many articles - websites - viewpoints - on this subject. Some claim everything came from the Masons - - some claim that is incorrect.


Fair enough. True of most things.

You are CHOOSING which one works for you. The one you want to believe.


It has nothing to do with what I want to believe or don't. I'm dealing in historical facts here, not opinions. I make my opinions and theories based on the facts that I uncover in my research. That is a very well written and comprehensive paper on the subject that I chose to post for the benefit of our readers, and for you, should you choose to read it for yourself. I guess you could have your husband read it and then tell you what you think about it if you prefer. Or ignore it completely; again, it affects me not.

Making up your mind then finding documentation to prove it - doesn't fly.


Agreed. If that was what I am doing, you would have a point... as it is not what I am doing, again you are making assumptions about my mind. Not good practice.

Go to LDS.org - - - and get the official version.


What makes you think I haven't?

You're the one saying Joseph Smith didn't "borrow" (steal) Masonic ritual for his Endowment ceremony... I'm simply stating that I think you are wrong, why I think so, and some material to back my position. I can provide more, if you like.

P.S. To the best of my knowledge, Joseph Smith was indeed a Master Mason when he wrote the Endowment. I even think he was a Mason at the time the church was founded. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

If you have credible information to the contrary, I'd be pleased to see it.


reply posted on 6-6-2007 @ 10:47 AM by brotherforchrist
Originally posted by The Axeman
Originally posted by whaaa
Following that logic, Lucifer's fall is the ultimate reason for Christianity; for without him there would be no need for The Christ.


An excellent point. I don't get why people must insist that Lucifer or the
"Devil" are necessary aspects to Christianity. All of that seems to be rooted in mistranslations and misconceptions.
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I would say that Satan testing Jesus in the wilderness in an attempt when he was at his weakest physically from fasting in an attempt to get him to do sinful actions in order to usurp the ability of Christ to die for our sins as a blameless pure sacrifice was needed, which consequentially meant that if Christ had ever given into temptation there would be no salvation,or Christ saying that He [the devil] was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies (John 8:44).By Christian Theology Satan knows that ultimately the battle is lost, he has no power over God and therefore can not harm God himself overtly, he harms god through us through situations,can the devil ultimately "make" anyone sin? NO. You can be tempted but ultimately choosing to sin is your choice to disobey god.
_______________________________________________________________

Besides that, like you said; if God created everything (which is my belief) then that means that he created evil. I believe He created it for a purpose but I don't think that the personification of evil should be taken literally.
_______________________________________________________________

God did not create evil, stating that would assume that God were evil.
________________________________________________________________

Sin is referred to in the manner you would refer to an individual in the OT. Does this mean that Evil is an entity? Not to me. To me it is an expressive way of writing, and if you take the Bible for what it is, that causes no contradiction.
_______________________________________________________________

What do you mean by take the bible for what it is? You either believe or you don't.It's pretty cut and dry, either in your life the Bible is the divinely inspired perfect word of God, or it is not.And I have no qualms about people not believing, you can worship the pencil on your desk for all I care, and I am not intending for someone to take it to bizarre rationalizations,( ow i tripped Satan must have put that object on the floor to get me), but if you think that Satan holds no place in the bible, I would suggest that you read the New Testament over.
_______________________________________________________________

Christianity is about Christ, not Lucifer. Christ wants you to be good for goodness' sake, not because you fear Hell or the Devil.

_______________________________________________________________
Ephesians 6:12

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


Yes the message of Christianity is following Christ, however to assume that Satan has utterly no place in Christian theology is erroneous.


reply posted on 6-6-2007 @ 11:30 AM by The Axeman
Originally posted by brotherforchrist
I would say that Satan testing Jesus in the wilderness in an attempt when he was at his weakest physically from fasting in an attempt to get him to do sinful actions in order to usurp the ability of Christ to die for our sins as a blameless pure sacrifice was needed, which consequentially meant that if Christ had ever given into temptation there would be no salvation,or Christ saying that He [the devil] was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies (John 8:44).By Christian Theology Satan knows that ultimately the battle is lost, he has no power over God and therefore can not harm God himself overtly, he harms god through us through situations,can the devil ultimately "make" anyone sin? NO. You can be tempted but ultimately choosing to sin is your choice to disobey god.


Exactly. Jesus/God wants you to be virtuous by your own free will that's the whole point. Righteousness for the sake of fear of the consequences of wickedness is of little or no value. Righteousness for the sake of being righteous in the sight of God is the goal.

God did not create evil, stating that would assume that God were evil.


No, stating that would assume that God created evil in order to give us the oppertunity to choose to be good. The ideas of Good/Evil are useless without the contrast between them.

Evil obviously exists; if God didn't create it, where did it come from?

What do you mean by take the bible for what it is? You either believe or you don't.It's pretty cut and dry, either in your life the Bible is the divinely inspired perfect word of God, or it is not.


It is Man's attempt at recording and explaining the nature of God, and a history book of sorts to the Hebrews. Does it have value as Divinely inspired literature? Absolutely. Does it contain errors, inaccuracies, and contridictions? Yes. Does it contain allegories and stories to teach lessons that more than likely have no place in historical fact? Yeppers. Does it contain the "Perfect Word of God"? In my opinion, no. It contains men's descriptions and accounts of what God showed to them. Big difference.

Does that keep me from making it the "Rule and Guide to my Faith and Practice? An emphatic No.

Does that mean I'm occasionally at odds with my Baptist wife? You betcha.

And I have no qualms about people not believing... but if you think that Satan holds no place in the bible, I would suggest that you read the New Testament over.


Not what I'm saying.

Yes the message of Christianity is following Christ, however to assume that Satan has utterly no place in Christian theology is erroneous.


Again, not what I'm saying. But most people today have no idea why the church doctrines are what they are today, nor what they were in the time of Christ, comparatively.

The words of Christ in the Bible are certainly compelling and are the basis of what I believe, but to say that they are 100% word-for-word exactly what came out of His mouth is in my opinion teetering on the brink of folly.

Considering that the New Testament was written 100 some-odd years after Christ died, it just doesn't seem very likely. It is Man's interpretation of the teachings of Jesus, not a verbatim transcript.

There's something to be said for Faith, of course, don't get me wrong. I have Faith, too. But where does faith become blind? God blessed us with Reason and intellect; why wouldn't He want us to use it and apply it to our relationship with Him?

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