Originally posted by tgidkp

Originally posted by scientist

Originally posted by tgidkp
it is NOT merely mumbo-jumbo rhetoric. it is also well beyond the scope of freemasonry.

could you elaborate on that? particularly the "scope?"

the mormon temple endowment and the teachings of freemasonry are identical in many important ways. it is true that Joseph Smith participated in freemasonry, way back in the day.

WARNING: opinion follows...

by 'scope', i refer to the concept that freemasonry, as it exists today, is a doctrine of mind-control and enslavement which stems from the darkest corners of history. in contrast, the intent of the endowment is freedom of the mind from the tyranny of men.

but both of them are depictions of the structure of the human soul (and thus universe). freemasonry teaches the ancient method of building the temple of god. mormonism teaches that "YOU are the temple of god."

>>>>>

i am going to bed now...

dkp

I would say that Freemasonry to me is about perfection of the soul, not to attain an eternal reward or as a theological tenet in and of itself, but to have moral conduct and do always the just and honorable and truthful things to instill that in your life, on the basis of their rightness, and the fact that doing good works , though it is not a method of salvation, does definately bring on closer to God, as everyone is a reflection of God, and made in God's image, and as is said in proverbs (I forget the exact verse or the exact words), if it is within your ability to help another, do so, your hand is God's hand in this circumstance.

Note that this is NOT masonic rhetoric, this is my own personal view and belief, I think a lot of people have a hard time accepting that masonry allows and encourages others to think for themlselves

Originally posted by brotherforchrist
I would say that Freemasonry to me is about perfection of the soul....I think a lot of people have a hard time accepting that masonry allows and encourages others to think for themlselves

...as pointed out in the previous reply, the mormon and freemason rites are directly related to the priesthoods of ancient times. on the surface, they both appear to be relatively innocuous. otherwise, how could they expect to prosper?

if you take the time and effort, and open yourself to inspiration, you will probably find that they contain the details of "whats really going on".

the reason that certain people in this world have attained such high degrees of power, wealth, and control, is that THEY know something that you DONT...and they are trying to keep you from discovering that knowledge. where does this information come from? it is coded within the ancient mythologies. both freemasonry and the endowment are adaptations of that ancient mythology.

something tells me that everyone here at abovetopsecret knows something of these mysteries. perhaps not on a conscious level...but these things are built-in to the soul, and we live in a time of the awakening of the soul.

and to annee, re: hiding in plain sight. the rituals and symbols are all here, layed out before you. it doesnt get any plainer. you seem to be contradicting yourself by downplaying their significance.

Originally posted by tgidkp

Originally posted by brotherforchrist
I would say that Freemasonry to me is about perfection of the soul....I think a lot of people have a hard time accepting that masonry allows and encourages others to think for themlselves

...as pointed out in the previous reply, the mormon and freemason rites are directly related to the priesthoods of ancient times. on the surface, they both appear to be relatively innocuous. otherwise, how could they expect to prosper?

if you take the time and effort, and open yourself to inspiration, you will probably find that they contain the details of "whats really going on".

the reason that certain people in this world have attained such high degrees of power, wealth, and control, is that THEY know something that you DONT...and they are trying to keep you from discovering that knowledge. where does this information come from? it is coded within the ancient mythologies. both freemasonry and the endowment are adaptations of that ancient mythology.

something tells me that everyone here at abovetopsecret knows something of these mysteries. perhaps not on a conscious level...but these things are built-in to the soul, and we live in a time of the awakening of the soul.

and to annee, re: hiding in plain sight. the rituals and symbols are all here, layed out before you. it doesnt get any plainer. you seem to be contradicting yourself by downplaying their significance.

This I agree with. Was just waiting to see where this all went. Non-Mormon's can be rather inventive in their "knowledge".

I am Mormon - - and I have been through the Temple Rites.

Yes - sadly Man corrupts everything.

The original Mormon belief is quite metaphysical.

Unfortunately - today they are lining up with the Right Wing Christians.

Originally posted by tgidkp
by 'scope', i refer to the concept that freemasonry, as it exists today, is a doctrine of mind-control and enslavement which stems from the darkest corners of history. in contrast, the intent of the endowment is freedom of the mind from the tyranny of men.

Holy Cow... What on Earth have you been reading? Do you think that Joseph Smith took the "doctrines of mind control and enslavement from the darkest corners of history" (very dramatic, btw) and cleaned them up into "freedom of the mind from the tyranny of men"?!

Please. Masonry is and always has been exactly what it is and always has been.

I've read quite a bit about the endowment ceremony and with some exceptions, as was stated earlier, it is so close to Masonic ritual that it's no small wonder that at the time of the founding of the Mormon Church there was alot of animosity between Masons and Mormons -- especially out in Utah where the Mormons settled. They were mutually exclusive - If you were a Mason you couldn't be a Mormon and if you were a Mormon you couldn't be a Mason...

Do you think that could possibly be because Joseph Smith basically ripped off Freemasonry for his Endowment ritual? The Square, compasses, grips and words... forms and ceremonies... where do you think that all came from? He certainly didn't make it up. Well, he did make some of it up.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Mormons, in fact I have some good friends that are Mormons; not to mention that the Mormons today have nothing to do with all that, other than participating. The vast majority of them probably have no idea how close their ties are to Masonry, ritualistically speaking. But for you to say something like I quoted you saying above, I can't let that pass by without comment.

Obviously you are neither a Mormon nor a Mason, so who are you to say what either one is or is not?

Have you ever been to a Masonic lodge? Have you ever been to a Mormon Endowment ceremony? Do you have any idea of the similarities and differences between the two?

If you answered no to any of those questions, then... well, you get it.

I won't turn this thread from Mormonism to Masonry by asking the questions I would like to ask and saying what I want to say, out of respect for the original poster. However, I will say that if you see Masonry's ceremonies as "bad" and the Mormon Endowment ceremony as "good", then it is clear to me that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Some people just have to bash what they do not understand...

The Mormon's did not get their endowment ceremony from the Masons. They got it from the same place the Mason's got theres.

I think you need to have some deep discussions with your Mormon friends to clear up a few things.

Originally posted by Annee
The Mormon's did not get their endowment ceremony from the Masons. They got it from the same place the Mason's got theres.

I have to disagree. It is telling that Joseph Smith wrote the Endowment only a couple of months after he himself was initiated into Masonry. The Masonic influence on the Endowment is extremely obvious.

The Masonic ritual, unlike the Mormon counterpart, does not claim to be of divine origins. The modern Masonic ritual was invented in England during the Enlightenment.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Annee
The Mormon's did not get their endowment ceremony from the Masons. They got it from the same place the Mason's got theres.

I have to disagree. It is telling that Joseph Smith wrote the Endowment only a couple of months after he himself was initiated into Masonry. The Masonic influence on the Endowment is extremely obvious.

The Masonic ritual, unlike the Mormon counterpart, does not claim to be of divine origins. The modern Masonic ritual was invented in England during the Enlightenment.

None of us know the exact truth.

I'm speaking from Mormon belief - - that Smith was visited by beings who showed him the original writings. And restoring the gospel stuff.

My husband was raised Mormon - he knows this stuff backward and forward - I'm just giving general info.

Because I do believe in the "watchers" - that we have been monitored and manipulated by higher evolved beings from early on - - - I have no problem believing that Joseph Smith was a contactee - - was provided this information - - and instructions to follow.

Some of Joseph Smith's original translations are amazingly metaphysical leaning - - and really unusual for the time. Which IMO - gives more support to him being "contacted".

It is too bad Man has corrupted those original teachings and brought them around to fit more with the fundamental right Christians of today.

According to Mormon teachings: Latter-day Saints believe that the Temple endowment is an eternal ordinance that Joseph Smith received by revelation from God.

This is why I mentioned "Alien Contactee". I am NOT saying this is FACT - its just a THEORY.

All I'm saying is some of Joseph Smith's original writings were a bit odd and very metaphysical for that time. He had visions and revelations - - and so did his parents. Aductions/Contactees tend to run in family lines.

The whole story is kind of weird - unless you believe in Contact by higher beings. Smith would have thought they were angels or prophets.

They gave him the Temple Endowments.

If you all want to insist it was stolen from the Masons - - Fine.

I'm just offering another option - theory.

Actually, what I'm saying, is that the FreeMasons were originally a Gnostic sect(and the original or first Christianity is Gnosis).

So Joseph Smith(and whoever else, whether it be 'aliens', Angels, or Masons) modelled the Mormon doctrine based on that of the Gnostic teachings.

But he never mentioned the word "Gnostic"(even though he had to have known of it), perhaps because he didn't want his followers looking to the source of his teachings.


But it is possible(although doubtful) that Jospeh Smith had contacted, in the Internal Planes, the Angelic Beings of the Catholic(not to be confused with Roman-Catholic)-Gnostic Great White Lodge.




[edit on 2-6-2007 by Tamahu]

OK - I think we're starting to understand along the same lines

I do read all this stuff and ancient and gnostic techs and stuff - - I'm just getting too old to burn it to memory. So I kind of generalize - unless I want more exactness - then I look it up.

Like the laws of Moses - or the 10 commandments. Moses went up on the mountain to get the laws - I believe he entered a craft and it sounds like he got radiation burns. He came down - saw the people were not ready for the higher law - so he went back up for the lesser laws. The basics.

Where did these laws come from?

Where did the Gnostic beliefs come from? We do not know.

Just because Joseph Smith did not label them the Laws of _____________ or whatever - really means nothing IMO.

Maybe they were Higher Laws - - from higher beings.

There is so much incorrect and mis-information out there about Mormon belief - - its really impossible to determine what is real and what isn't unless you were actually raised in it.

A common misconception from Mormons and about Mormons is that these rituals actually bring one salvation. While the rituals are important for the religion, it needs to be recognized that they are symbols of something that is going on in the spiritual world. Whether or not you believe that is beside the point. I am LDS myself, and I definitely have difficulty with a lot of the temple ceremonies, which is the key reason I decided not to go on a mission, even after getting a call to Brazil.

What others need to understand about this is that a person can be a member of the church and not be perfect. Another misconception and in fact a misquotation is "every young man should serve a mission." Yet, there are stringent requirements for missionaries and a lot of young men lie in order to get out in the mission field.

While that is wrong, it's not completely their fault. A huge amount of pressure has been put on these young men, often since birth, that they need to go on a mission. This is what happens when members are so focused on living the rituals and not living what the religion teaches, which is the gospel of Christ. The leaders have said "every young man should serve a mission" not "every young man must" and regardless of whether or not is was said by a prophet, anyone who has ever looked the two words up in a dictionary will understand that there is a huge difference. What most people don't realize is that a mission isn't about worthiness to "enter the kingdom." Getting in the temple doesn't get you in heaven, and fulfilling all the rituals and commandments of any church won't necessarily get you there either. It's what's in your heart that counts.

[edit on 6.4.2007 by Isaac Tanner Madsen]

Thank you Isaac - - - I am so glad you are here