Chemtrails brainstorm.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Edit to add: Affirmitive Reaction, you stated that you are a tanker pilot of over twenty years of service? What in the heck is an educated 40 something year old man stating location "NUNYA (could be chillin' at the kwaj lodge!)" NUNYA and chillin' for some reason doesnt sound like something a 40 year old would say. I think you may be in the service because you know about the Kwajelien atol in Hawaii but I doubt you are a middle aged man.

[edit on 8-10-2006 by LoneGunMan]

First of all, you need to read my posts a little better, "Bubba". I didn't fly tankers. You are confusing two different posts. Second, look at how long I have been a member. That tag and the one at the bottom of my post have been there for more than a few years...I'm a creature of habit. You are correct that I am 40 something, but those younger than 40 don't have a monopoly on language, something I tell my 18 year old at times. That being said, the term "NUNYA", short for "None of your damn business", is very old, you "young-uns" didn't coin it. As for the "Kwaj Lodge", do your homework. Kwajalein Atoll isn't in the Hawaiian Islands, it's in the Republic of the Marshall Islands, and is actually much closer to Guam and Wake than Hawaii. I've visited may times on supply runs, and the "Kwaj Lodge" was not the best place to stay at that time, back in the good old late 80's and early 90's. You see, I was stationed at Clark AB until a little thing called Mount Pinatubo chased me out.

Fella, you may "out" somebody else in here, but you might as well give up with me, because unlike many who come here, I'm the real article....

I don't need to pretend...my real life has been WAY too interesting!!!!

Nice try, no cigar…

Live with it!

NEXT!!!

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction

Condensation can occur at any, repeat "ANY" altitude, from ground level up to whatever altitude you wish to discuss. Have you ever seen an air show where a fast mover, say an F-16, F-18, or any other fighter is doing high angle of attack maneuvers? Ever see one come in low and fast and do a hard pull up, at which time a contrail forms at the trailing edge of said aircrafts wing? That's condensation! If it was cold, it would linger longer, but it's usually warmer, so it dissipates almost immediately. Well, the higher you go, the colder it becomes, thus contrails last longer. However, if it's a bit nippy at lower altitudes, then contrails form at said lower altitudes, thus creating the "illusion" that they are closer to the horizon, which would then make you THINK they are further away.

Clouds are condensate, moisture in the air, are they not? Fog is a cloud at ground level, correct? Contrails are also condensate, as proven. They can and do occur at any altitude when atmospheric conditions are favorable.

Clear?

OMG!! Wrong! Contrails do not form at any altitude there guy. We are not talking about seperating the air from the water at exterme speed at a high angle of attack! We are talking about condensation trails created by jet-turbine and turbofan engines, are we not?

You stuck your size 12 right in your mouth!

Fireman vs. Pilot on a subject involving aviation.
Mhmm.. of course the enthusiast believes he has to be right..

[edit on 8-10-2006 by Iblis]

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
"NUNYA", short for "None of your damn business", is very old, you "young-uns" didn't coin it.

Sorry but I am not a young-un. I am 44 year old grandfather. I wasnt refering to NUNYA as much as I was refering to the term "chillin".

Answer the real questions. How does a contrail form under 12K?

Originally posted by Iblis
Fireman vs. Pilot on a subject involving aviation.
Mhmm.. of course the enthusiast believes he has to be right..

Look buddy why dont you go polish the "body" of you aircraft, I think a storm scraped it...

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

OMG!! Wrong! Contrails do not form at any altitude there guy. We are not talking about seperating the air from the water at exterme speed at a high angle of attack! We are talking about condensation trails created by jet-turbine and turbofan engines, are we not?

You stuck your size 12 right in your mouth!

Wrongo, "bubba". Contrails aren't only created by aircraft engines, they are also created by flight control surfaces. You should learn your science before you enter a conversation and put YOUR foot in your mouth. I have looked out the sextant port at only 23,000 feet and seen a contrail forming at the trailing edge of my wingtip where my fuel dump mast is located. Also, on takeoff, my C-130 (told you I didn’t fly tankers, didn’t I?) props will, especially on a humid day (remember moisture?) create spiral contrails under high power settings that corkscrew back several feet. Disruption of airflow causes a pressure differential, thus causing the aforementioned CONDENSATION, more noticeable at colder temps.

You are incorrect that contrails cannot be formed at lower altitudes, but then, being a firefighter, you haven’t done as much flying as I have, now have you?

Again, do your homework before you come at me. You embarrass yourself...

Oh, and BTW...I wear size 10.5

Originally posted by The_Time_is_now
Well, i dont belive in this idea, but according to some people, you can Dissapate Chemtrails by using orgone Generators, which imo, is ridiculous, but hey, if it works, then ill admit im wrong.

There is only one way to find out now, isn't there???

Instructions:

www.metatech.org...&_orgone_generator.html

www.hootenization.com...

Thebandit, can you get this thread back on track please? some people are ruinning the thread for those of us who wants to do the brainstorming...



It's not a thread to debunk but yet people are still not smart enough to understand this.

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
I have looked out the sextant port at only 23,000 feet and seen a contrail forming at the trailing edge of my wingtip where my fuel dump mast is located. Also, on takeoff, my C-130 (told you I didn’t fly tankers, didn’t I?) props will, especially on a humid day (remember moisture?) create spiral contrails under high power settings that corkscrew back several feet. Disruption of airflow causes a pressure differential, thus causing the aforementioned CONDENSATION, more noticeable at colder temps.

Well no kidding, we are not talking about a few feet or a few aircraft lengths though are we? Of course you can get condensation at high speed, I saw an all weather F-18 during an airshow that was cancled after 15 minutes of it opening, come through in zone 5 afterburn pulling back on the stick to keep his airspeed from going beyond the sound barrier, and had a huge amount of condensation come off the leading edge of his wing. It was quite impressive. We werent talking about condensation that goes away instantly though were we?

You put me down for being a Firefighter, with an opinion about aviation? Without even knowing my background? I come from a family of pilots, my father took me to airbases and airshows all over the US when I was a kid. I have cousins that own aircraft of different mfgs. and models, from a Beech King Air, Cessna 182, and one had a homebuilt fully aerobatic bipe with a smoker. I have flown them all, myself but must admitt I am not lisensed. I know my stuff though.

I know how to fly inverted, I can do snap rolls, flat spins, stall turns, I even tried a tailslide once. I saw that same cousin not pull out of a simple loop, eding in a crash and burn. That was when I didnt want to fly anymore, not from fear of it (I fear nothing but growing old and crippled) it just left a bad taste in my mouth.

So dont put me down for being a firefighter only, some people are much more complex than you think. I am a Firefighter because of that look of hope one gets in their eye, when they know in their heart they are dying and they see my ugly face. Not because I coudnt be something else. I bet I am a better stick and rudder man than yourself!!

Now that the skeptics have expressed there opinion that they are contrails I would say thanks for your opinions but many of us know differently and would like to brainstorm amoungst ourselves.

Why, don't you just leave us alone.

Maybe we need to ask the mod.'s to have a sections for skeptics only.

The issue I think, is that you say you 'know' something, which states we are wrong. They there are, actually Chemtrails. And the rest of the belief is true as well; Aliens, government, so forth.

My personal reason is that I want only legitimate conspiracies. Things like this are simply.. nut-shell philosophies. All we have asked for for the entire.. what.. seven pages? Is a legitimate piece of evidence -confirming- there are Chemtrails. All we have asked. And we have yet to receive it.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Well no kidding, we are not talking about a few feet or a few aircraft lengths though are we? Of course you can get condensation at high speed, I saw an all weather F-18 during an airshow that was cancled after 15 minutes of it opening, come through in zone 5 afterburn pulling back on the stick to keep his airspeed from going beyond the sound barrier, and had a huge amount of condensation come off the leading edge of his wing. It was quite impressive. We werent talking about condensation that goes away instantly though were we?

(edit for brevity)

So dont put me down for being a firefighter only, some people are much more complex than you think. I am a Firefighter because of that look of hope one gets in their eye, when they know in their heart they are dying and they see my ugly face. Not because I coudnt be something else. I bet I am a better stick and rudder man than yourself!!

Well, for someone who claims to know a lot about aviation, you surely don't show it. First of all, airspeed below 10,000 MSL is limited to 250 KIAS, and although military aircraft in range space are exempt from this restriction and are also given wavers for air shows, no fast mover would ever, EVER go so close to the speed of sound at an air show. Even "high speed passes" are usually limited to less than 400 KIAS, well below the speed of sound. In addition, no pilot worth his salt would EVER let his speed get away from him so far as to have to pull up to keep from breeching the sound barrier. The pass you describe is a hard pull up to show the climbing ability of the given jet, in this case the F-18. And pray tell, how did you know he was in "zone 5 afterburner"? Were you in the cockpit with him? Are your eyes so good as to be able to see his throttle position? Wow. Impressive.

But I digress. The example given was to demonstrate the effect of airflow disruption. Even at low altitudes, contrails of many forms are created, thus, even at altitudes much, much lower than your aforementioned 28,000 feet, contrails are formed. Scientific fact. Period.

Sorry if it took me a while to answer you last post, but I had nearly passed out from hypoxia (that's lack of oxygen for you non-flyers) at your assumption that you, a firefighter, (and don't get me wrong, I have all the respect in the world for the profession. My best friend's son is one ad I am very proud of him!) would be a "better stick and rudder man" than I. Yep, I'm betting your 50 to 100 hours has given you vast skills, way beyond my 5,000+ hours of PIC time. Yep, all those hours flying low level, 1300+ hours of combat time, and 4 years teaching in the formal school simply can't hold a candle you your "flat spins and tail slides", now can they?


Oh, by the way, notice the pic? Know what that is? It's the Air Force Air Medal. Mine comes with three oak leaf clusters. They don't give them out for chewing bubble gum, "Bubba".


usmilitary.about.com...

Originally posted by Iblis
Is a legitimate piece of evidence -confirming- there are Chemtrails. All we have asked. And we have yet to receive it.

I have asked you how a contrail can form under 12K and have yet to recieve an answer.

I also want you to tell me why you keep using British lingo, but state you are an American F-16 pilot that calls a fuselage a body that can have its aluminumn scraped off by storms. What gives there sky-pilot?

Tell me this. What does an aircraft do when you pull all the way back on the stick/yoke and to the port side while pressing the rudder pedals all the way to the right. You claimed to be a jet-jockey, so lets hear an answer.

Has anyone noticed if Iblis and Affirmative Reaction are ever on line at the same time?

Also Affirmative, you mentioned you were a long time ATS member, but I see you haven't posted since 2004.

Surprisingly you came out of the woodwork to plunge into this thread.

And of course Iblis has three days worth of posts on several threads with a military subject.

Whatever guys, lets keep it real!!!

[edit on 8-10-2006 by interestedalways]

Well, I haven't gone through all the posts, and I don't believe in chemtrails, but were I to investigate the claim, I would try to get ahold of things like local airport schedules and see whether the planes that are allegedly spraying chemtrails are in fact passenger airlines or not.

I don't know much about the chemtrail theory, but as I understand it, most believers don't think it is passenger jets spraying people, but some sort of clandestine military or government black ops thing. Now, seeing a plane in the air that is not on a commercial flight schedule doesn't mean that it is a chemtrail sprayer. It could be a late flight, or a diverted flight, or that sort of thing. Or it could be something more sinister, who knows...? If there are air force bases or that sort of thing in the area, that is another legitimate possibility.

Also, I would take lots of pictures, both of the chemtrails/contrails observed, and of the planes themselves. A good pair of binoculars would probably let you see the plane quite well, assuming you had them handy when it flew overhead. And if you know anything about aircraft identification (I don't) you might be able to recognize what type of plane it is. A 767 is probably not something to worry about... a 'black triangle' going back and forth over the same area might be...

I think the key here is to actually take the time to do some serious research, if you want to know the truth behind these matters. (that applies to anything, really) While I personally don't believe in chemtrails, as I stated, I really don't have any evidence or proof one way or the other, except maybe the Occam's Razor argument.

The last thing I would suggest is not to try and prove a specific conclusion (i.e. in your case, to prove chemtrails are real, or in my case, to prove they are false) but rather to simply research the truth, whichever direction that happens to lead. Don't let preconceived notions blind you to facts.

And if you do find anything sinister going on, let us know... and then RUN! "They" don't want you to know...

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction

Well, for someone who claims to know a lot about aviation, you surely don't show it. First of all, airspeed below 10,000 MSL is limited to 250 KIAS, and although military aircraft in range space are exempt from this restriction and are also given wavers for air shows, no fast mover would ever, EVER go so close to the speed of sound at an air show. Even "high speed passes" are usually limited to less than 400 KIAS, well below the speed of sound. In addition, no pilot worth his salt would EVER let his speed get away from him so far as to have to pull up to keep from breeching the sound barrier. The pass you describe is a hard pull up to show the climbing ability of the given jet, in this case the F-18. And pray tell, how did you know he was in "zone 5 afterburner"? Were you in the cockpit with him? Are your eyes so good as to be able to see his throttle position? Wow. Impressive.

This pilot was in full burn, because they were about to turn away a quarter of a million people after 15 minutes with no refund. It was anounced that he was going to do a zone 5 afterburn pass at show center. He broke through the ceiling that was extremly low and pulled back on the stick hard to keep the speed down without having to lower his throttle. My father had connections with the military, he was 82nd airborne and had many medals for being stuck behind enemy lines in Korea when the Chinese over-ran them and I have seen the speed of sound broken out west with my father. I know what it looks like and this dude was damned close.

You didnt answer because you were laughing? I kept refreshing the page and you logged in and out more than a few times, you just didnt know what to say.

Originally posted by interestedalways
Also Affirmative, you mentioned you were a long time ATS member, but I see you haven't posted since 2004.

Surprisingly you came out of the woodwork to plunge into this thread.

So what is the reason for this? Why would you, after two years of nothing suddenly show up posting? Someone asked you to come here and debunk this thread?

This is very suspicious, why would you do that?

[edit on 8-10-2006 by LoneGunMan]

Originally posted by interestedalways
Has anyone noticed if Iblis and Affirmative Reaction are ever on line at the same time?

Also Affirmative, you mentioned you were a long time ATS member, but I see you haven't posted since 2004.

Surprisingly you came out of the woodwork to plunge into this thread.

And of course Iblis has three days worth of posts on several threads with a military subject.

Whatever guys, lets keep it real!!!

[edit on 8-10-2006 by interestedalways]

Again, all you do is try to put the doubt of suspicion on those who disagree with you! What kind of debating/discussion tactic is this? Show me some proof, one iota, which can be called scientific proof from a single reputable, verifiable source! "Because I know it's true" just doesn't cut it, and trying to say that iblis and I are one and the same is simply ludicrous. I have actually been online most of the afternoon, as I am preparing for my class tomorrow and need periodic breaks to keep my sanity. Had you been looking throughout the day you would have noticed iblis and I have been online at the same time several times.

Mr. Firefighter, if you will read my posts I have demonstrated several times that contrails are formed at any altitude depending on the atmospheric conditions. Dew point/ temperature...very simple science.

Could you post some for a change????

Well said DragonsDemesne.

That is what the original intent was. Maybe we can begin anew when the boys are done playing.

My contention at the onset of this thread is that on Several occassions of late there have been Several planes (jets, I believe) flying around in the same visual space for Several hours with dual exhaust leaving trails of something behind them, filling the sky above me. Even crisscrossing each others trails at times.

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction

Mr. Firefighter, if you will read my posts I have demonstrated several times that contrails are formed at any altitude depending on the atmospheric conditions. Dew point/ temperature...very simple science.

Could you post some for a change????

No you didnt! We are not talking about the kind of vapour you get from speed that disapates instantly Mr. Getting ready for my class, we are talking about a trail that lasts all day and was formed below 12K. You have not done anything like that! My car produces a vapourtrail in the winter time, but ut disapears right away.

Why after a two year hiatis from posting you post attempting to debunk chemtrails?