Chemtrails brainstorm.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan


This pilot was in full burn, because they were about to turn away a quarter of a million people after 15 minutes with no refund. It was anounced that he was going to do a zone 5 afterburn pass at show center. He broke through the ceiling that was extremly low and pulled back on the stick hard to keep the speed down without having to lower his throttle. My father had connections with the military, he was 82nd airborne and had many medals for being stuck behind enemy lines in Korea when the Chinese over-ran them and I have seen the speed of sound broken out west with my father. I know what it looks like and this dude was damned close.

You didnt answer because you were laughing? I kept refreshing the page and you logged in and out more than a few times, you just didnt know what to say.

Sorry "bubba"...nice try but this just doesn't wash. First of all, if he was going to do an afterburner pass, he would not have lit them up until he was leveled out AT show center, not while descending through a cloud deck. The show part is the roar and the flame shooting out in afterburner, something you don't get at mil power. That's your first mistake. Second, if he descended through the deck and "pulled up hard" as you describe, he would have shot back up through said deck and disappeared. Not much of a show, now is it? More likely, if he had to "pull up hard" he was doing it to keep from slamming into the ground. If he was about to go supersonic, he would first simply chop the power, not leave the cans lit and pull up. No pilot is going to go through a low cloud deck in afterburner to keep a crowd from leaving. Period. It's stupid, dangerous, and it simply isn't done. Sorry, you are full of it.

In addition, I haven't signed off for quite some time. I'm sitting in my living room on my laptop working on my lesson plan, watching a hockey game (now over) and keeping this window in the background for some light entertainment. I haven't posted here in several years because I didn't feel the need, and frankly, the quality of the posts and those making them had deteriorated considerably. Things haven't changed much I see...but thanks for the diversion, as I needed the occasional break from my work!!!

edited to alleviate redundancy!

[edit on 8-10-2006 by Affirmative Reaction]

Originally posted by Iblis
So, you're saying Turbine fuel and my car-gasoline are one and the same? ..
Interesting..
[edit on 8-10-2006 by Iblis]

They are both hydrocarbons, are they not?

They are both distilate mixtures that contain some of the same chemical compounds.

Toluene, among others comes to mind.

Anyone who wishes to "brainstorm" about "chemtrails" should be familiar with the term supersaturation with respect to ice.

Unless you understand this key concept, your aren't brainstorming, you are brainfarting

Originally posted by observe50
Maybe we need to ask the mod.'s to have a sections for skeptics only.

Why?

What are you afraid of?

This is completely futile. You my friend are here for one reason and that is to disrupt this thread. I dont want to go round and round about whether a F-18 was in full burn or not. Jeez my man were you even there, you act like you were. I will clarify that when he broke through the ceiling he leveled out well before he got to show center, you could hear him throttle up, and yes he did disapear right away.

Anyway you can say hello to my ignore list because this is just going around and around. Next time you need a paramedic, or your house burns and some guy/gal puts their butt on the line to save yours, think about the disrespectful way you have talked to me.

I sir lead my life with virtue and nobility.

Howard go back to architecture, and leave this alone. This gets so boring. Who will come out of the woodwork next, Off The Street?

[edit on 8-10-2006 by LoneGunMan]

Originally posted by divine chronic
and its not a contrail!... a contrail is formed from the heat from the jet engine, and only leaves a trail for a few SECONDS... not HOURS!!

If a contrail is made up of ice crystals, just like a cloud is, why won't it behave just like a cloud does?

Do clouds only last for a few seconds?

Please elaborate on this.

Thank you.

Originally posted by The_Time_is_now
and how is it that these chemtrails end up in patterns?

Or maybe because airlines fly in established and regular flight paths.


edit:


What particular patterns do you atribute to "chemtrails?"

X's? Parallel lines?




[edit on 8-10-2006 by HowardRoark]

I will elaborate. Could it be because a cloud has so much moisture, its like comparing a bathtub to a lake?

Howard tell me how a contrail forms below 12k and doesnt disapate all day? Why is that in my area with no jet corridors going over my town we get heavy chemtrail activity a few times a year.

Tell me why back in 1999 the contrails were the same as they ever were, and then one day it was different? Not permanently but periodicly?

Originally posted by CYRAX
heres proof
"The Army kept the biological-warfare tests secret until word of them was leaked to the press in the 1970s. Between 1949 and 1969, when President Nixon ordered the Pentagon’s biological weapons destroyed, open-air tests of biological agents were conducted 239 times, according to the Army’s testimony in 1977 before the Senate’s subcommittee on health. In 80 of those experiments, the Army said it used live bacteria that its researchers at the time thought were harmless, such as the Serratia that was showered on San Francisco. In the others, it used inert chemicals to simulate bacteria."
heres the link for the full story
www.apfn.org...
Rep. Kucinich's HR 2977
Names Chemtrails As
An 'Exotic Weapon'
heres the bill
www.fas.org...
watch this then tell me theres no such thing as chemtrails
www.youtube.com...
you have to see the operation to believe it and no its not normal
as for the thread starter ask 60 minutes to do show on chemtrails

You neglect to mention that he revised the bill to remove the mention of chemtrails. WhY?

Included in the ban were "chemtrails," supposed airplane emissions that change the weather or cause rashes in schoolkids, if you listen to the Art Bell radio show anyway. Chemtrails were removed in a revised draft of the bill. "I'm not into that," Kucinich told The Cleveland Plain Dealer. Really? But Kucinich was the legislation's sole author.

www.realchange.org...

After being questioned about the bill last year, Kucinich rewrote it, removing the controversial language.

"I'm not into that," he insisted. "Understand me. When I found out that was in there, I said, 'Look, I'm not interested in going there.' "

www.cleveland.com.../kucinich/more/1047214686213910.html

At any rate the bill died in committee.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
This is completely futile. You my friend are here for one reason and that is to disrupt this thread. I dont want to go round and round about whether a F-18 was in full burn or not. Jeez my man were you even there, you act like you were. I will clarify that when he broke through the ceiling he leveled out well before he got to show center, you could hear him throttle up, and yes he did disapear right away.

Anyway you can say hello to my ignore list because this is just going around and around. Next time you need a paramedic, or your house burns and some guy/gal puts their butt on the line to save yours, think about the disrespectful way you have talked to me.

I sir lead my life with virtue and nobility.

Howard go back to architecture, and leave this alone. This gets so boring. Who will come out of the woodwork next, Off The Street?

[edit on 8-10-2006 by LoneGunMan]

Funny how the story changes when I point out the inconsistencies in your tale, very similar to the claims that chemtrails exist. I don't but that either!

Trust me, if you fight fires the way you debate, stay as far away from my house as you possibly can...it would burn to the ground before you figured out if it was actually on fire or not!!!

Now you are trying to control who posts here as well? Give me a break! Fella, I'm not here to disrupt any thread. I, as a retired AF officer and now educator, am simply trying to enlighten those who show they do not understand our world. Unfortunately, as sometimes happens, some students refuse to be taught. I'm very saddened when it happens, but it does. Sorry you have decided to drop out of school.

I sir, have always and will continue to live my life in service to my country, first defending it, now educating its youth. I will share your story with my students tomorrow as an example of how NOT to deny ignorance...

See ya!!!

Edit for fat fingered spelling...I hate typing on a laptop...missed the U in HOUSE!


[edit on 8-10-2006 by Affirmative Reaction]

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Originally posted by observe50
Maybe we need to ask the mod.'s to have a sections for skeptics only.

Why?

What are you afraid of?

Very well said!!! So simple, but yet so poignant!!!

Please elaborate...what are you all afraid of, discussion? That you may be proven wrong? Trust me, I'll be the first to admit that I have been wrong in my life, and I'm still alive. It doesn't kill you, you actually learn more from your mistakes than your successes...they stick out in your mind!

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
I will elaborate. Could it be because a cloud has so much moisture, its like comparing a bathtub to a lake?

It's not an issue of how much moisture the cloud or the contrail has, but rather it is an issue with how much moisture the surrounding atmosphere has.

Once again, you have to grasp the concept of Supersaturation With Respect to Ice

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Originally posted by observe50
Maybe we need to ask the mod.'s to have a sections for skeptics only.

Why?

What are you afraid of?

Very well said!!! So simple, but yet so poignant!!!

Please elaborate...what are you all afraid of, discussion? That you may be proven wrong? Trust me, I'll be the first to admit that I have been wrong in my life, and I'm still alive. It doesn't kill you, you actually learn more from your mistakes than your successes...they stick out in your mind!

because the thread starter does not want to discuss are they real we already know they are real so all you are doing is trolling
that goes to you howardroak

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Howard tell me how a contrail forms below 12k and doesnt disapate all day? Why is that in my area with no jet corridors going over my town we get heavy chemtrail activity a few times a year.

How do you know what the altitude was?

Originally posted by CYRAX

because the thread starter does not want to discuss are they real we already know they are real so all you are doing is trolling
that goes to you howardroak

So the thread starter has control over what is posted on the board? Give me a break. This is a discussion board. As long as the posts are on topic, in this case the thread is "chemtrails", you don't get to control what people post! Now, if someone changed the thread to "Bigfoot", then you might have a valid complaint. The posts have all stuck to the topic of "chemtrails". You don't get to quash dissenting opinions.

The graph below is a few years old and the end point is skewed due to 9/11 and the subsequent economic slowdown. I am looking for an updated version of this plot.



At any rate, you can clearly see that the growth of air traffic in general has been exponential over the past 20 years.

The other issue to considder is that most airlines have replaced thier older jets with modern ones using the more fuel efficient high bypass turbo-fan engines.

High bypass engines are much better at producing big fluffy contrails.

The onset of contrail formation also depends on the type of engine and fuel that engine is burning. There are three types of aircraft engines that can produce contrails. First are non bypass or propeller engines that have no ìjet exhaustî as the engine is an internal combustion type. The second are a low-bypass engines which are first and second generation jet engines. Examples include the J57 found on all B-52s up to the G model and JT3D found on numerous commercial jet transports built into the early 70ís. Finally there are the high bypass engines such as the CFM-68 that are found on all modern commercial and military transport aircraft. Each type of engine has a different contrail factor (Cf) which is 1000*((mw*Cp)/E where mw is the mass of water vapor in the aircraft exhaust, Cp is the specific heat of air at a constant pressure, and E is the total energy released by the engine (Coleman 1996). The contrail factor is lowest with non bypass engines and highest with high bypass engines. Also, the higher the contrail factor, (amount of bypass), the higher the critical temperature and thus the lower the level at which a contrail may form as more energy and water vapor are available to produce them since the exhaust from higher bypass engines is warmer that that of low bypass engines (Coleman 1996). Please refer to the tables in the appendix from Schrader that detail the effects the contrail factor has on the critical temperature and the level of formation. Engine settings also play a role in the formation of contrails. The higher the trust setting the more water vapor released and the more likely hood of contrail formation. Finally, the type of fuel burned affects contrail formation as different fuels release different amount of water vapor and other substances into the atmosphere.

students.ou.edu...

Engines with higher overall efficiency produce less CO2 and H2O, but tend to enhance the potential for contrail formation. Improvements in engine efficiency increase the relative humidity of the exhaust plume, because reductions in plume temperature are greater than the corresponding reductions in water concentration as efficiency increases. The estimated growth in contrail coverage due to increased flights and more efficient engines will add significantly to the impact of contrails.

cfmxdev.aiaa.org...

So, more flights, with engines that are more likely to produce contrails. . . .

Got a "brainstorm" yet?

Thank you guys for ruinning this thread you litterly hijacked it and now it's not worth jack.

You guys have no respect for this board and no respect for the people on it.

You guys are simply trolls and nothing more, you contribute nothing to the purpsose of this thread, you claim to be so smart but you can't even grasp the concept of a brainstorm.

There is no debunking involved in a brainstorm.

You don't see me posting into threads just to start flamming wars and annoying the posters.

There is no use, idiots rules the world.

I have to post comments that are unrelated to the thread just so you guys don't freaking ruin it but it doesn't even work and it's all in vain.

I don't even read what you hijackers posts anymore, it's very much useless to the thread you are just wasting your time and everyone elses time who wanted to help in the brainstorm.

I hope you guys are happy....

They dont have to be in ot it, they just need to be gullible enough to not think for themselves and buy the official line. Like yourself.

And you for listening to the chemtrail beleivers. Every few thousand hours a plane gets completly taken apart, then checked. How can you possibly think that the thousands of people who do this, could cover up a consipary?

Sorry but grid patterns as you put it are not what makes a toxictrail different from a vaportrail. One factor is when you see one on the horizon, because in order to make a vapourtrail on the horizon it has to be too far away to see with the naked eye.

I know that, but it's a common part of the myth that jets purposly fly in grid lines, when all it is is navigation over VORs. Although newer jets still use VORs they still use them as Fixes.

Why is it that when people try and debunk this issue they always insult the people they are talking too. This shows your imature level of thinking, and your inabilty to have an intelligent debate. I feel like I am in a grade school playground.

Sorry, I wasn't talking about anyone on this site, also aren't you being slightly hypocritcal there?

Sorry my friend but until you open your mind and pay attention you will never understand what is going on.

Pay attention to what? A bunch of photos?

it isnt just "weird individuals" as you call them who are talking about chemtrails.

i happen to be a research doctor of over 40 years ......in..... oh thats right the aviation industry......obviously i must be dilusional if i believe it along with several of my colleagues who also work as senior lecturers in this field.

I wasn't talking about you nor anyone on this site. I am talking about the creators

If those of you who don't want to believe something is being sprayed in a concise manner for a certain purpose then why would several jets fly back and forth in the same area for hours?

What reason would they do this for? Why would they fly overhead leaving their trails which linger for hours? I am not close to an airforce base or any other military installment. Why are the jets in my neighbourhood?

Because jets often fly the same STAR, approach, or VOR. Hell even fixes can do that.

Some of you may remember me from quite a while ago, as I posted quite often in "cemtrail" threads. For those of you who don't, I'm (now) retired from the USAF after 20+ years on C-130's. I have a masters in aeronautics, and over 5,000 hours in the air. (And that's "in the air time", as in wheels off the ground, unlike civilian time which is engine start up to engine shut down...we don't get flight time for taxiing around the ramp) I've been to six of the seven continents (never got to land at McMurdo), so I've seen more aircraft at more airports than your average citizen...

Cool, I don't know if you've been posting recently but it's always amazing and fun to have really experianced people in discussions such as your self

Every time someone starts a thread for a purpose the purpose of the thread gets trown away because people always try to debunk it, they don't even read the content they just look at the tittle and then they paste a debunk theory.

I'm sorry but the debunk theories are usually facts.

Can at least one of the "experts" answer one simple question? Why are the jets, at least three, flying overhead, back and forth in Independence Mo for hours leaving dual exhaust trails in thier wake?

Jets often fly the same route, but they never circle around unless it's a jet in a holding pattern or a AWACs in a Military exercise.

because these people are ignorant. it happens in all the forums on any subject. dont disrespect the kiddies at the school playground, im sure they have a higher level of maturity.

Rofl. How am I ignorant?

ITS NOT FUEL !!

where are you all gettin this crazy idea from?!

fuel doesnt stay in the sky for hour and hours and hours!!!!!

What are you talking about? Did you even read my post? For every gallon of fuel burnt a gallon of water is created, that water turns into contrails which are the same thing as clouds, only man made.

AFAIK, clouds can linger for hours.

Then please explain how these contrails from B-17s got so long in only a few seconds.

Contrails don't last for seconds. Contrails are basically clouds but made of water coming from exhaust. Clouds don't disapear in seconds now do they?

Oh no, the man who can't spell a five-letter name is ignoring me..
Woe is I!

ROFL.

Skeptics are just here to create turmoil, this is how that get there fix. I would think if they researched or just looked up and watched they might learn something.

That is often correct, however other times, like this, it's the opposite way

One site as I mentioned in another area here does extensive work collecting specimens and having them tested from these trails. Not only is Aluminum in the trails but they have tested for red blood cells, barium salts (pink/purple clouds) which is rat poison and other wonderful concoctions that are just wonderful to breathe in.

That could be fake, and it also could be from other more logical things other than jets flying over.

One last thing. What became interesting to chemtrail observers was the fact that after all the e-mails and letters sent from all over the USA the planes spraying would AT TIMES TO TURN ON AND OFF THE TRAILS TO MAKE THEM LOOK LIKE CONTRAILS. lol. (sorry about the caps wasn't yelling just hit the wrong thingy.)

rofl. Sorry but it's called weather. It's not exactly the same universally.

I follow most "chemtrail" threads and invariably a group of NEW members join for a team debunking session. Usually with vitriol and snotty comments that really add nothing to the discussion and frankly detract from their sometimes valid criticisms. The personal attacks probably don't win many converts either.

Why thank you.