Jews Face Violence Again

Actually from what I've read since, Hezbollah generally do wear uniforms when going into combat.

Do you have a link?

As for other was of telling them apart, generally Hezbollah fighters will be the ones with the guns.

If only it were that simple.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by Jamuhn
semperforits, you say Hezbollah targeted civilians, yet most of those Israelis killed were military. And on the Israeli side, most of those Lebanese killed were civilians. Who's trying to change the facts?

How can you tell, other than the age, if they are civilians or Hezbollah? After all, they don't wear uniforms.

The "hiding among civilians" myth

Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths -- the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far -- on "terrorists" who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.

But this claim is almost always false. My own reporting and that of other journalists reveals that in fact Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.

Originally posted by xmotex
Actually from what I've read since, Hezbollah generally do wear uniforms when going into combat. As for other was of telling them apart, generally Hezbollah fighters will be the ones with the guns.

The original method used to count Hezollah casualties was: if they had a weapon, they were Hezbollah. If not, they were civilians.

Immediately after, Hezbollah began grabbing the weapons from their fallen comrades. Presto! The number of civilian casualties goes up!

To Jamuhn: a reporter from Salon.com? Please.

Here are some supporting sources:

THIS is the picture that damns Hezbollah. It is one of several, smuggled from behind Lebanon's battle lines, showing that Hezbollah is waging war amid suburbia.

The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.

Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon.
:
The images include one of a group of men and youths preparing to fire an anti-aircraft gun metres from an apartment block with sheets hanging out on a balcony to dry.
:
Another depicts the remnants of a Hezbollah Katyusha rocket in the middle of a residential block blown up in an Israeli air attack

www.news.com.au...

i thought this was about Jews facing violence in the UK not the Hizbollah, etc?

im still suprised by this because Jews are a very small minority in the UK, but they have faced a history of discrimination in the British Isles. We kicked them out numerous times during throughout history.

Here are some supporting sources:

That's a picture of Christian Phalangists, not Hezbollah.
Half of them don't have beards, and one of them appears to be wearing an Orthodox Cross around his neck. I've pointed out several times on this board that that photo has been repeatedly debunked.

With all the threads on photo fraud, you'd think people would stop posting that one.
Just goes to show the power of selective perception.

As far as the Hezbollah in uniforms thing goes, it's hard to find a link specific to the subject, however I've seen several reports on Hezbollah mentioning they usually do wear camouflage BDU's in combat. They've also been kown to don Israeli uniforms however

Originally posted by xmotex
That's a picture of Christian Phalangists, not Hezbollah.
Half of them don't have beards, and one of them appears to be wearing an Orthodox Cross around his neck. I've pointed out several times on this board that that photo has been repeatedly debunked.

I have not seen where those photos were debunked. Nor can I find any information on any requirement that Hezbollah wear beards. I did see one article which mentioned fake beards, which implies duplicity on Hezbollah's part.

Islamist radicals (along with most non-radical Muslims) regard shavng the beard as haram (sp?), forbidden: What Islam says About the Beard - Is Keeping the Beard That Important?

Mohammad Atta and the 9-11 hijackers, if I recall, had to seek special religious dispensation to shave their beards and take other steps to "fit in" while in the west.



[edit on 9/4/06 by xmotex]

The people of the U.K. need to take out their frustration on the world's landlords and go after the Rothchilds not Krusty the clown.

It annoys the hell out of me, when someone puts all the Population of the UK into one basket. Not everyone feels this way, you are just making assumptions that everyone in the UK are at one over this.

NOT

Originally posted by infinite
i thought this was about Jews facing violence in the UK not the Hizbollah, etc?

im still suprised by this because Jews are a very small minority in the UK, but they have faced a history of discrimination in the British Isles. We kicked them out numerous times during throughout history.

Jews are probably facing a lot less violence than Muslims or other minorities but they just whine about it more. I don't feel sorry for them at all.

Here's something I find interesting. After 9/11 it became rather difficult for a Muslim or Arab (or anyone who had dark skin to some extent) to walk out in public without a lot of dirty looks an harrassment. Discrimination against Muslims and Arabs (the same thing as far as the media is concerned it seems) is still quite prevalent in the world. They're frequently accused of attempting genocide and of killing civilians. Yet they're freqeuntly known for being the victims of such attrocities. All because apparently all Muslims and all Arabs are terrorists.

After the attack on Lebanon it became rather difficult for a Jew or Israeli (or anyone who had dark skin to some extent) to walk out in public without a lot of dirty looks an harrassment. Discrimination against Jews and Israelis (the same thing as far as the media is concerned it seems) is still quite prevalent in the world. They're frequently accused of attempting genocide and of killing civilians under the guise of defending themselves. Yet they're freqeuntly known for being the victims of such attrocities. All because apparently all Jews and all Israelis are terrorists.


Anybody else find it interesting that I basically just said the same thing but substituted the groups and a pair of events for eachother? It seems to me that the Arabs and Israeli's have a lot more in common than they realize. Such a shame they're wasting their time fighting eachother like 2 year olds with bombs.

Originally posted by DJMessiah
Where is the religious equality in Israel? Why do Jews get better treatment than non-Jews?

False, Israeli-Arabs receive all the rights Israeli-Jews receive as citizens in Israel.

Why are people who practice faiths such as Bahaism, Islam, Christianity, and even Scientology segregated in Israel?

Where is this information from. A policy of Segregation is NOT in effect in Israel. both my daughters had (and have) Arab children in their kindergardens and Cities like Ramle, Lod, Haifa, Tel-Aviv, Jerusalem and Jaffo (and others) are mixed cities.

All of Hezbollah's targets were military bases, not civilian areas, please do not change the facts.

Again False, in terms of the rocket attacks of Hezbullah a large majority were civilian areas. over 50 Civilians were killed at work, in their homes and on the road in their cities when these rockets fell. These areas were not used to attack Lebanon as was the case in Lebanon (Hezbullah rocket attacks were from residential areas).

NOTE THAT YOUR POST IN ITS ENTIRETY IS FICTIONAL. I THINK YOU ARE CONFUSING THIS POST WITH A SCIENCE FICTION LITERARY FORUM. PLEASE LOOK INTO THIS.

Judah.

Source
According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the occupied territories, the Israeli government "did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens."

So...is the United State's Government lying about Israel now?

Edit:

Let's not forget this either: Poll Conducted by an Israeli Research Institute on Arabs
41% were in favour of segregation
40% believed "the state needs to support the emigration of Arab citizens"
63% believed Arabs to be a "security and demographic threat" to Israel
More than two thirds would not want to live in the same building as an Arab
36% believed Arab culture to be inferior
18% felt hatred when they heard Arabic spoken

[edit on 5/9/2006 by Odium]

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
NOTE THAT YOUR POST IN ITS ENTIRETY IS FICTIONAL. I THINK YOU ARE CONFUSING THIS POST WITH A SCIENCE FICTION LITERARY FORUM. PLEASE LOOK INTO THIS.

Please don't lie to us. Your post is entirely fiction in itself, and you seem to disregard many of Israel's policies towards non-Jews. For one thing, your comment completely negates the foundation of "Zionism" on which Israel is based on. You have not looked into this matter carefully. I suggest reading the articles located:

www.globalresearch.ca

www.vho.org

www.mepc.org

Isreal jews favour segregation

Non-jews cannot be citizens, but only nationals:
here

Israel's laws bans non-Jews from over 90 percent of their lands

Gentiles are neither to be lifted [out of a well] nor hauled down [into it]" (Tractate Avodah Zarah, 26b).

Non-jews in Israel

Also, look at dictionary.com to find the definition of "Science Fiction."

[edit on 5-9-2006 by DJMessiah]

Originally posted by Odium
Judah.

Source
According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the occupied territories, the Israeli government "did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens."

So...is the United State's Government lying about Israel now?

Now you are just being dishonest or unattentive: The quote you stated from the report reads at the start of the paragraph:

The Government generally respected the human rights of its citizens

and goes on to state which areas where problematic in terms of what the US sees as needing to be resolved in term terms of progress in human rights during 2004 - so in 2004 Israel did little to bridge the gaps between institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens. It does not state to what level there is discrimination but that it did little in 2004.

Every minority group in every country faces discrimination especially if that minority group belongs to a group who is at war with that country. There is discrimination on low levels in Israel against Israeli Arabs but in light of the region in which Israel is in and in light of the disciminatory record of its neighbors Israel is far better.

Nice try - better luck next time!

Let's not forget this either: Poll Conducted by an Israeli Research Institute on Arabs
41% were in favour of segregation
40% believed "the state needs to support the emigration of Arab citizens"
63% believed Arabs to be a "security and demographic threat" to Israel
More than two thirds would not want to live in the same building as an Arab
36% believed Arab culture to be inferior
18% felt hatred when they heard Arabic spoken

[edit on 5/9/2006 by Odium]

What are we trying to say here? That Israelis are racists? Do you expect Israeli Jews to react differently after 6 years of a conflict with the Palestinians and their terrorist tactics? To the nitty gritty.
I am convinced that the word 'segregation' was used wrongly in that article. In Hebrew 'Hafrada' which was used refers to the disengagement therefore the Brits misinterpreted that term.
You have to admit though that the remaining percentages were quite low. Only 1/3 of the population though that Arab culture is inferior? I wonder what the Iranians would say about the Jewish Culture or for that matter the Europeans about Israeli culture?

Nah, JudahMaccabbi I am just pointing out things are not as black and white as you like to make out. Just because they have all the rights, doesn't mean they are treated as second class citizens. Furthermore, it doesn't mean the Government is going to protect them as much as they would the Jewish Majority.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Now as has happened in the past, Jews are being persecuted because Israel chose to defend her citizens.

How Exactly did Israel Defend Her Citizens?

By Bombing the Crap out of Lebanon?

By Bombing the Crap out of Gaza Strip?

Oh, you mean the IDF Soldiers that were Kidnapped?

Hey, whatever happened to them?

Ever heard of Private Gilad after the first few weeks?

Damn!

His Family must be really getting worried now.

I still do not understand, why is this in the ATSNN section.

News?

Where?

Originally posted by Odium
Nah, JudahMaccabbi I am just pointing out things are not as black and white as you like to make out. Just because they have all the rights, doesn't mean they are treated as second class citizens. Furthermore, it doesn't mean the Government is going to protect them as much as they would the Jewish Majority.

And this is based on what? The world according to Odium?
The Israeli government, Police force, and the military have Arabs so how is it that they won't protect their own? Granted there are situations in which Jews may get better treatment. When this happens Arab Parliment members make a huge noise out of this and it is splattered all over the Israeli and international NEWS.

I'm not sure whether to be disappointed in members for legitimizing or excusing attacks on Jews worldwide, or shocked at some rather educated, smart people being unable to differentiate between Jews and Israeli nationals. Regardless of their views, no less, the fact that members cheer on Hezbollah is baffling. Since when is downtown Haifa a military target?

As for Semper's original post, it's not just in the UK that attacks are escalating. In Canada, too -especially in montreal, ironically home of both the largest populations of Jews and Lebanese in Canada- there has been some rather shocking violence.

Hasidic Boy's School firebombed

This is simillar to an attack in April 2004, in which a man firebombed another Jewish elementary school. In both cases, suspects missed the children by a time frame of 15-20 minutes.

DE

Since when is downtown Haifa a military target?

Since downtown Beirut became one?
I think it's less of a case of people "cheering on Hezbollah" as it is simple disgust with Israel though.

I agree 110% that ordinary Jews bear no responsibility for the actions of the State of Israel - targeting them for attacks "in response" to Israeli actions is loathesome.

Originally posted by DJMessiah

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
NOTE THAT YOUR POST IN ITS ENTIRETY IS FICTIONAL. I THINK YOU ARE CONFUSING THIS POST WITH A SCIENCE FICTION LITERARY FORUM. PLEASE LOOK INTO THIS.

Please don't lie to us. Your post is entirely fiction in itself, and you seem to disregard many of Israel's policies towards non-Jews. For one thing, your comment completely negates the foundation of "Zionism" on which Israel is based on. You have not looked into this matter carefully. I suggest reading the articles located:

www.globalresearch.ca

Trying to recover from the shock of this article - The blatant lies by this supposed 'mid-east analyst'. There is so much to be said here. Please remind me to rebut her entire arguement with actual facts as it pertains to Israel today (or in 2000 when the article was written)!

www.vho.org

Slanted, inaccurate and agenda driven. Palestinians displaced prior to the 1948 war should return to Palestinian territories only under a peace agreement. The War which caused all this refugee problem in 1948 was initiated by the Arabs who rejected the UN Partition plan. In the subsquent years the Arab countries involved in this fiasco kept the Palestinians as refugees and refused to absorb them into their own society occured with nearly all other refugees throughout history. Palestinians can have a homeland when a peace agreement is ironed out but not two homelands. This is the Palestinian ploy to call out for peace and on same note try to destroy the Jewish homeland through massive a demographic shift. Sorry but no cigar.

www.mepc.org

Point is?????

Isreal jews favour segregation

Nice one GenocideWatch - I misled in one of my previous posts regarding the issue of segregation - I am sorry for that here is the original uncut article relating to this - It is less agenda driven in that it shows that a clear majority of the Israelis are not racist in any way - The researchwas performed in Israel by israeli Arabs (imagine this type of research being done on Syrians/Iranians by jews and published in Syria or Iran!)
Haaretz

Non-jews cannot be citizens, but only nationals:
here

This article is from 1991 and I question its reliability - Israeli law does not allow this type of discrimination and there are reverse discrimination laws (affirmative action) which disallows Jews from buying lands in various areas that were set aside for beduins - source
There are communal settlements in Israel which require people who wish to be accepted to pass entrance examinations Jews were rejected from some of these communities just like Arabs. One Arab couple took this issue to the supreme court and won the ruling. Here are two examples that contradict your sources.

Israel's laws bans non-Jews from over 90 percent of their lands

This is a misconception. It bars Jews as well. These lands cannot be bought but leased and leased to anyone with few restrictions. This article for the most part is BOGUS! Israel provides vast incentives to Arabs and even imposes a top tax incentive to all Arab cities in attempt to improve relations and lessen discrimination - Source

Gentiles are neither to be lifted [out of a well] nor hauled down [into it]" (Tractate Avodah Zarah, 26b).

Did you actually read this article. It pretty much sums it up that the large part of what Israel Shachak wrote about the Talmud he often misinterpreted and took out of context. There may be some text passages that were xenophobic but in light of the times they were written (during the inquisition) this type of writings would be understandable.
Regarding Talmud - It is a set of texts that based on Torah and Rabbinical discussions outline the fundamentals of Jewish laws. Most of the ignoramic Talmudic posts people use on this forum are false, taken out of context and/or misinterpreted - I cannot stress this enough.

Non-jews in Israel

Plenty of inaccuracies which lend to show that the author is trying to build an arguement based on fabricated fact. Based on Shachak makes the whole arguement flimsy since his arguements about Talmud were for the most part WRONG. Maybe bits and peices are factual but overall the stated 'facts' wrong - wish I can go more into this but not today.