Religion is not the big killer. Masonry is.

Originally posted by pepsi78
It's in your morals and dogma book

Good for Morals and Dogma. What does that have to do with anything?

It is a book written by a Freemason, a rather well-respected one, sure. But it was the opinions and speculation of just one man. It doesn't speak for the organization.

I'm rather tired of people dragging out Pike like he is some sort of god to us, like M&D was a bible to us. I'd like to see one of these haters read something like 'Freemasons for Dummies', and then comment accordingly.

Nah, can't have educated haters.

Originally posted by pepsi78
look the definition of an altar up

Sure, let's sink to that level:

Quoted from Dictionary.com
al·tar n.
1. An elevated place or structure before which religious ceremonies may be enacted or upon which sacrifices may be offered.
2. A structure, typically a table, before which the divine offices are recited and upon which the Eucharist is celebrated in Christian churches.

Well, a lodge is not a Christian church, so 2) is right out.

The only thing specified in 1) is that it is an elevated place or structure. The rest has 'may' prefacing each clause... religious ceremonies may be enacted before it. It doesn't say 'a structure where religious ceremonies and nothing else are performed'.

It certainly doesn't mention that I can't eat a bowl of Cheerios while sitting before an altar. If I did, it wouldn't exactly be a religious experience... would it?

Good for Morals and Dogma. What does that have to do with anything?

It is a book written by a Freemason, a rather well-respected one, sure. But it was the opinions and speculation of just one man. It doesn't speak for the organization.

1 Becareful you might get your brothers upset on you quoting on this.
2 Why would a free mason have this view especialy when he wrote the book for other free masons to inspire by.
3 A 33 degree mason defines a book"morals and dogma" which is a book for lecture.

Your lectures ,as you said by you own quoting

Nope, they originate in the lectures, which have been developed by our order over many generations

I find your response on this low, with out any credibility, I find that you can not offer an explenation to the quotings of albert pike.
There for all you can do is beat arount the bush, it will only make you look bad, but what do I care , it's not me

I can not see things any clear.
It's quite clear.

The All-Seeing Eye is the emblem of Osiris the Creator' whose 'power was symbolized by an eye over a Sceptre. The Sun was termed by the Greeks the Eye of Jupiter, and the Eye of the world; and his (Osiris') is the All-Seeing Eye in our lodges' - Albert Pike, Morals & Dogma: pages 15-16

[edit on 19-6-2006 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78
were talking about masonary, why you comparing other stuff with masonary?, I'm just stating it's in contradiction, the subject if it's good or bad it's not the case here.

Funny, that's not what you said earlier in the thread.

You need to hone your argument down. You've stated roughly the following: Anything that is in contradiction with the Bible is anti-Christian.

But then I mentioned that priest swear oaths, just like masons do... so are both anti-Christian?

You stated that we are a religion because some of us have (something we call) an altar in the room. Since you beleive that only religious activities can possibly happen in the vicinity of an 'altar', we are therefore a religion.

But several of the masons posting here have mentioned our personal faiths - which are rather disjoint. Most are participants in major organized religions.

You stated that since we use a symbol to represent god, and that symbol may have been used to represent something else by a dead culture, that we are followers of part of that culture.

But that is simply ludicrous.

So let me ask this... what is your point? The point of this thread is supposed to be that Masonry is destroying society. In what way do you think that is so?

Originally posted by pepsi78
1 Becareful

you might get your brothers upset on you quoting on this.

No, I don't think I will. If you understood at all, you'd figure out why...

3 A 33 degree mason defines a book"morals and dogma" which is a book for lecture.

Your lectures ,as you said by you own quoting

Morals and Dogma is not part of our lectures. Albert Pike had nothing to do with the lectures of the Blue Lodge.

I find your response on this low, with out any credibility, I find that you can not offer an explenation to the quotings of albert pike.

Why would I need to? His writings are just that - his writings. They don't represent or explain me or my bretheren.

Funny, that's not what you said earlier in the thread.

You need to hone your argument down. You've stated roughly the following: Anything that is in contradiction with the Bible is anti-Christian.

But then I mentioned that priest swear oaths, just like masons do... so are both anti-Christian?

You have no knolege of the bible.
Cristian religions have been the subject of modification by groups that have huge intrest on modifing religions , especialy when it comes to crestianity.
So yes I would think religion is BS.... because it does not reprenent what has been writen, religion is reinvented by groups such you self, the problem that remains is that the only thing it can not be change is the bible.
Do I think when a priest takes an oath is wrong?YES of course.
The bible tells not to take any oaths because we are free as human beings and we dont pledge, a priest pledges to god, what does masons pledge to? god ? if it were so it would became an religios act , if it were not to be a pledge to god it would be wrong .

You stated that we are a religion because some of us have (something we call) an altar in the room. Since you beleive that only religious activities can possibly happen in the vicinity of an 'altar', we are therefore a religion.

Seriosly where did you find an altar before?
Tell me one public place that is not a curch where you have seen it.
So exculding masonic lodges, tell me please where have you seen an altar before?

You stated that since we use a symbol to represent god, and that symbol may have been used to represent something else by a dead culture, that we are followers of part of that culture.

No i'm sure what it represent

The All-Seeing Eye is the emblem of Osiris the Creator' whose 'power was symbolized by an eye over a Sceptre. The Sun was termed by the Greeks the Eye of Jupiter, and the Eye of the world; and his (Osiris') is the All-Seeing Eye in our lodges' - Albert Pike, Morals & Dogma: pages 15-16

So let me ask this... what is your point? The point of this thread is supposed to be that Masonry is destroying society. In what way do you think that is so?

By influence on society, by influence in religion, by influence by any means.

It's clear to me that this debate is way off course, and that several of the posters have no idea what they are talking about. In the interest of making this productive, allow me to share what I have found to be the core of Freemasonry:

1. Man has the potential to be good, upstanding, and moral. Some men actually desire these things.
   
2. When men with this desire band together, they can accomplish nifty things - cheritably, socially, constructively.
   
3. When men of such an interest meet, they can grow in social, spiritual, and moral ways - it is encouraging to such men to know they aren't alone.
   
4. Faith is an essential quality to have, but it is impossible for us to agree on the specifics of any individual faith. It is, however, possible for us to meet side by side, and just agree to respect each other's beliefs. Repeat for political views, ethnicity, and social background.
   
5. It is possible (and good) to meet on the level - kings and presidents standing next to farmers and peasants, with no distinction.
   
6. A better society will result if we seek out these good qualities and principles in others, and help them prosper. Call it a form of natural selection, if you will.
   

Keep in mind that this is a list I have just put together, not some official thing. A different mason would probably come up with a different list.

So, all that said, please answer me the following questions:

1. Which of these values are anti-Christian?
   
2. Which of these ideals is 'ruining the world'?
   
3. How do these values 'claim souls'?
   
4. Which of these values makes Freemasonry a religion?
   

Originally posted by pepsi78
You have no knolege of the bible.

I got my minor in religous studies, without any knowledge of the bible. Damn, I'm good.

Cristian religions have been the subject of modification by groups that have huge intrest on modifing religions , especialy when it comes to crestianity.

My brain hurts, trying to comprehend what you could possibly be talking about...

the problem that remains is that the only thing it can not be change is the bible.

New International Version, American Standard, New American Standard, New Living Translation, King James Version, English Standard Version, Contemporary English Version, New King James Version... and that's just some of the English versions. Have I made my point?

The bible tells not to take any oaths because we are free as human beings and we dont pledge, a priest pledges to god, what does masons pledge to? god ? if it were so it would became an religios act , if it were not to be a pledge to god it would be wrong .

So, wait... we are free, but not free to pledge to our fellow human beings? Which is it?

Seriosly where did you find an altar before?
Tell me one public place that is not a curch where you have seen it.

Ok, the town I grew up in has a public park. There is a gazebo with a raised stone pedestal. One could conceivably perform religious activities at it or on it. In fact, I've seen marriages performed at it.

But it's just a rock.

No i'm sure what it represent

A shame you are just wrong.

By influence on society, by influence in religion, by influence by any means.

So anything influencing a society, by any means, is wrong? I just want to make sure that's what you are saying

Originally posted by Hobbes
It's clear to me that this debate is way off course, and that several of the posters have no idea what they are talking about. In the interest of making this productive, allow me to share what I have found to be the core of Freemasonry:

1. Man has the potential to be good, upstanding, and moral. Some men actually desire these things.
   
2. When men with this desire band together, they can accomplish nifty things - cheritably, socially, constructively.
   
3. When men of such an interest meet, they can grow in social, spiritual, and moral ways - it is encouraging to such men to know they aren't alone.
   
4. Faith is an essential quality to have, but it is impossible for us to agree on the specifics of any individual faith. It is, however, possible for us to meet side by side, and just agree to respect each other's beliefs. Repeat for political views, ethnicity, and social background.
   
5. It is possible (and good) to meet on the level - kings and presidents standing next to farmers and peasants, with no distinction.
   
6. A better society will result if we seek out these good qualities and principles in others, and help them prosper. Call it a form of natural selection, if you will.
   

Keep in mind that this is a list I have just put together, not some official thing. A different mason would probably come up with a different list.

So, all that said, please answer me the following questions:

1. Which of these values are anti-Christian?
   
2. Which of these ideals is 'ruining the world'?
   
3. How do these values 'claim souls'?
   
4. Which of these values makes Freemasonry a religion?
   

That is just pretending, your secrets are in your lectures.
Become a better man how?by your lectures?

The hermaphroditic figure is the symbol of the double nature anciently assigned to the deity, as generator and producer, as Brahm and maya among the Aryans, osiris and Isis among the Egyptians. As the Sun was male, so the moon was female; and Isis was both the sister and wife of Osiris. the compass therefore, is the Hermetic symbol of the creative deity, and the square of the productive Earth or Universe'
Pages 850, 851 of 'Morals and Dogma'

By what, by corupting religion?,by corupting the curch? by corupting others to do the dirty job?
By taking oaths?, be swearing to the brotherhood? , god said not to make oaths and he had a good point, an oath will make you a slave,I guess god intended for man to be free.
You know this with the blue lodge does not lacture from morals and dogma is hush hush, so many other lodges do, morals and dogma is the alphabet of the lodge.
With teachings like this ones.

The All-Seeing Eye is the emblem of Osiris the Creator' whose 'power was symbolized by an eye over a Sceptre. The Sun was termed by the Greeks the Eye of Jupiter, and the Eye of the world; and his (Osiris') is the All-Seeing Eye in our lodges' - Albert Pike, Morals & Dogma: pages 15-16

I dont see where the good can come from.

I would say taking oaths and swearing to a group is totaly fanatic and a unresponsible thing to do.
And that's how radicals are boren.


[edit on 19-6-2006 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78
That is just pretending, your secrets are in your lectures.

Wow... way to dismiss an entire post. Good job. I guess you're right, you've exposed me as a liar, and we can all go home...

Yes, our 'secrets' are the principles explained in our lectures. They aren't secret... the lectures can be found on the internet, rather easily. In fact, every candidate that walks out of my lodge is given a printed copy of the lectures, so that he may better study them.

Become a better man how?by your lectures?

That's up to each man. For me, it was growth through the cheritable work we do.

By what, by corupting religion?,by corupting the curch? by corupting others to do the dirty job?

In what way have we corrupted (or even attempted to corrupt) anything?

By taking oaths?, be swearing to the brotherhood? , god said not to make oaths and he had a good point, an oath will make you a slave,I guess god intended for man to be free.

You may think that your god said that... mine did not. Stop trying to push your own beliefs on those around you... there is a good lesson you could learn about tolerance.

You know this with the blue lodge does not lacture from morals and dogma is hush hush, so many other lodges do, morals and dogma is the alphabet of the lodge.

Ok, again... seriously... grammer and spelling will make for a much more understandable diatribe. Normally, I'd just skip over junk like this, but it seems important to your 'point', so I will try to interpret.

I think you're trying to say "The Blue Lodge uses 'Morals and Dogma' by Albert Pike as its lecture document, but it's a secret. Other lodges use it openly." If this is what you are trying to say, you're not only confused, but flat out wrong.

The term 'Blue Lodge' refers to a lodge of freemasons, consisting of Entered Apprentices, Fellow Craft, and Master Masons (the three degrees). There aren't 'other lodges' in the organization. Blue Lodge lectures (part of our ritual work) have nothing to do with Morals and Dogma - they are not direct quotes or even derivative works.

There is an appendant body called the Scottish Rite. It is important to note that it is NOT Freemasonry, itself. Pike was the leader of the Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite in the United States. That's right... for a TIME, he was the head of ONE jurisdiction, in ONE country. Most masons never ever encounter any of his works.

Pike, during his time, helped revise the lectures for that jurisdiction. He also wrote a philosophical work called 'Morals and Dogma'. M&D is NOT a bible or manifesto for the Scottish Rite or Freemasonry, and the lectures of the Southern Jurisdiction are not derived from it. M&D is an exploration of religious concepts, that attempts to trace the evolution of beliefs through man's history.

For instance, the passage about the all-seeing eye (that you are SO fond of quoting, ad nauseum) mentions that he believes the symbol was first seen in Egyptian culture as a symbol of Osiris, and has evolved to have new meaning, with those interesting roots. It is NOT stating that Freemasons worship Osiris.

I dont see where the good can come from.

... but let's pretend, for a second, that you are right... and we are praying to Osiris. You don't see how that could possibly be 'good'. So, we are bad because we believe in/pray to an Egyptian God? What happened to religious freedom and not looking down on other's religious faith?

You, sir, by your own admission, are an intolerant bigot.

I would say taking oaths and swearing to a group is totaly fanatic and a unresponsible thing to do.
And that's how radicals are boren.

Let's dissect... forgive my spelling corrections to your text...

1) Taking oaths and swearing to a group is fanatic? Why? Because you believe your god is against it? Wouldn't that make you the fanatic?

2) It's irresponsible? Why? If one doesn't think swearing an oath is morally wrong, and one is swearing to do good things, wouldn't that be a responsible thing to do?

3) That shapes us to become radicals? Why do you think this? What radical behavior can you cite, to back up your claim?

Freemasons are radicals. Wow. Even trying to mentally brand some of my aging brothers as radicals makes me chuckle. Maybe they'd be radical for, oh say, a century or two ago.

Actually, a few of my younger brothers and I acted radically this weekend. We got up at the crack of dawn to put on a child identification program for the local community. We spent time mentoring some youth volunteers (who probably would rather have been doing something else) that showed up. We dealt with parents that only wanted something for free, and children that didn't understand why they weren't elsewhere playing video games. We lugged around heavy cases of equipment, some of which decided to act flaky halfway through. We funded it out of pocket, including all supplies and advertising. We did not get paid or compensated in any way. And we did it just because we could, and it was a good thing.

Yes, that unfortunately makes us pretty radical in this day and age. A pity.

NO actually it's not a fact nor has it ever been PROVEN!!!! There was no body, there was no weapon. Only hearsay and contraversy. nothing more.

The Valence Confession notated by Dr. John L. Emery

"... 'Go where I would, or do what I would, it was impossible for me to throw off the consciousness of crime. If the mark of Cain was not upon me, the curse of the first murderer was—the blood-stain was upon my hands and could not be washed out. My last hour is approaching; and as the things of this world fade from my mental sight, I feel the necessity of making, as far as in my power lies, that atonement which every violator of the great law of right owes to his fellow men' In this violation of law, he says, 'I allude to the abduction and murder of the ill-fated William Morgan..."

Here are some more sources

Robert Freke Gould, History of Freemasonry, Vol IV. The John C. Yorston Publishing Co., Philadelphia: 1902. pp. 316-29.
2.P.C Huntington, The True History Regarding Alleged Connections of the Order of Ancient Free and Accepted Masons with the Abduction and Murder of William Morgan... New York: 1886.
3.Thomas A. Knight, The Strange Disappearance of William Morgan. Published by the author at Brecksville, Ohio. The Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company New York City: 1932.
4.Rob Morris, William Morgan; Or political Anti-masonry, Its Rise, Growth and Decadence. New York: 1883. 398 pp.
5.William L. Stone, Letters on Masonry and Anti-masonry, Addressed to The Hon. John Quincy Adams. New York: 1832. The first of these letters is dated Nov. 20, 1831, there being a total of forty-nine of them.

If you mean that no one has ever stood trial for the murders, then you are correct. This fact was written by Charles C. Finney in "The character, claims, and workings of Freemasonry." He claimed that justice in the case was impossible because all the civil offices in the counrty were in the hands of Freemasons. His exact words were:

"...It was found that they could do nothing with the courts, with the sheriffs, with the eyewitnesses, or with the jurors; and all their efforts were FOR A TIME- entirely impotent..."

This led to the anti-masonic party being formed. This part is also known as the Whig party. This was the 3rd American party in Government. This party was first formed by John Quincy Adams in which wrote:

"I do conscientiously and sincerely believe that the Order of Freemasonry if not the greatest, is one of the greatest moral and political evils..."

The joint Committee in Massachussetts in 1834 wrote

..."Freemasonry is a distinct independent government within our own government, and beyond the control of the laws of the land by means of its secrecy..."

As for the records of this account...


[edit on 19-6-2006 by Distracto]

You're disobeying God as well if you're wearing any clothes made from more than one type of fabric... It's in the bible, so I guess it must be true and universal and doesn't require independent thought

It doesn't say that at all- yet another disingenious misinterpertation. It refers to not wearing a material of more that one sexual type- crossdressing. Here is the biblical reference.

Deuteronomy 22:5

Maybe you all know more about Freemasonry because you are Freemasons, but sadly you know little of the Holy Bible. Considering the Bible is freely available it shows a little ignorance on your part. How can we know everything about Masonry-you barr enrty to non-Freemasons. All the information we have is what other Freemasons tell us, or information others have died to expose- like William Morgan.


[edit on 19-6-2006 by Distracto]

Originally posted by pepsi78
It clearly says that

The All-Seeing Eye is the emblem of Osiris the Creator' whose 'power was symbolized by an eye over a Sceptre. The Sun was termed by the Greeks the Eye of Jupiter, and the Eye of the world; and his (Osiris') is the All-Seeing Eye in our lodges' - Albert Pike, Morals & Dogma: pages 15-16


It's in your morals and dogma book

Pepsi, the above quote shows the credibility of your posts...because the above quote is NOT found in Morals and Dogma.

What Pike REALLY says on p. 15-16 of Morals and Dogma is:

Our French Brethren place this letter YŌD in the centre of the Blazing Star. And in the old Lectures, our ancient English Brethren said, "The Blazing Star or Glory in the centre refers us to that grand luminary, the Sun, which enlightens the earth, and by its genial influence dispenses blessings to mankind." They called it also in the same lectures, an emblem of PRUDENCE. The word Prudentia means, in its original and fullest signification, Foresight; and, accordingly, the Blazing Star has been regarded as an emblem of Omniscience, or the All-seeing Eye, which to the
Egyptian Initiates was the emblem of Osiris, the Creator. With the YŌD in the centre, it has the kabalistic meaning of the Divine Energy, manifested as Light, creating the Universe.

You can't even get a quote right, much less understand the logic behind it.


[edit on 19-6-2006 by Masonic Light]

I believe this is what Pepsi is speaking of.

XXV NIGHT OF THE BRAZEN SERPENT

"..Osiris was the image of generative power. This was expressed by his
symbolic statues, and by the sign into which he entered at the Vernal
Equinox. He especially dispensed the humid principle of Nature, generative
element of all things; and the Nile and all moisture were regarded as
emanations from him, without which there could be no vegetation.
That Osiris and Isis were the Sun and Moon, is attested by
many ancient writers; by Diogenes Laertius, Plutarch, Lucian, Suidas,
Macrobius, Martianus Capella, and others. His power was symbolized
by an Eye over a Sceptre. The Sun was termed by the Greeks the Eye
of Jupiter, and the Eye of the World; and his is the All-Seeing Eye in
our Lodges.."

Albert Pike- Morals and Dogma

Maybe he erred in the quotation- but his information is in the book; it is creditable.

[edit on 19-6-2006 by Distracto]

Originally posted by Distracto
How can we know everything about Masonry-you barr enrty to non-Freemasons. All the information we have is what other Freemasons tell us

... which you don't generally believe, anyway.

Why should ou know everything about our organization? Why do you have this expectation?

Originally posted by Distracto


Maybe he erred in the quotation- but his information is in the book; it is creditable.

I would have to disagree. He chopped up a few words from throughout the book, spliced them together, then called it a "quote". Obviously, it's not. If I say, "Distracto is pretty cool guy, but Osama bin Laden is a piece of garbage", I am quoted only if my words are correctly repeated. If Pepsi comes by and chops up what I said, and "quotes" me as saying "Distracto is...a piece of garbage", then he hasn't quoted me correctly, and to all practical effect has lied about what I said.

rofl @ this thread.

how many deaths and injustices has the catholic church been responsible for throughout the millenia?

how many deaths and injustices has freemasonry been responsbile for throughout the millenia?

i hate how the typical mason bashers put the church up on a pedestal, like they are pure and without crimes against man. freemasons tearing apart the church? please!...how many beliefs and religions has the catholic church wiped off the face of the earth, with no consideration for the people of the lands, who were perfectly content w/ their beliefs? how many people throughout the years has the catholic church persecuted for not sharing their beliefs?

the funny thing is what i always say...you bashers are talking about an organization you have no first hand experience in...and thats pretty much nulls and voids any argument you have. any of you can get into a lodge, and join its "ranks", and i honestly wish you would (even if you have to lie your way in), just to see that there is nothing there...no conspiracies, no abuse, no grand agenda. now does that seem like a "secret society" to you, if you can just lie your way into it?

its funny to me when people say freemasons are anti church, when i'd find it safe to say that the majority of its members are good ol' catholic boys.

Originally posted by Distracto
]

The Valence Confession notated by Dr. John L. Emery

"... 'Go where I would, or do what I would, it was impossible for me to throw off the consciousness of crime. If the mark of Cain was not upon me, the curse of the first murderer was—the blood-stain was upon my hands and could not be washed out. My last hour is approaching; and as the things of this world fade from my mental sight, I feel the necessity of making, as far as in my power lies, that atonement which every violator of the great law of right owes to his fellow men' In this violation of law, he says, 'I allude to the abduction and murder of the ill-fated William Morgan..."

Is the Valence confession a real one? Or was it fraudulent?

Did Morgan leave Batavia, and live out the rest of his life in Honduras?

For over a century the truth [concerning Morgan's fate] has been unknown.
However in 1950 the Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Michigan, Morgan J. Smead, carried on an extensive correspondence with I. Dwight Hunter, the husband of the great granddaughter of William Morgan, who lived in Belize, British Honduras, which proved conclusively that William Morgan left Batavia and crossed Lake Ontario into Canada. Morgan left Canada and was shipwrecked in 1827 in the Cayman Islands. He and his children eventually settled at Utilla in the Republic of Honduras, Central America.

Source

1 why take an oath???to what?? what???secreets??? why???? there must something bad .
If the secret were something positive that would help the world why keep it a secret, why even take an oath? for what? it would serve for what?
If it were something positive then I dont see the need for oaths that makes you keep a secret, I dont see the reason for oaths.
Because masonary is a fenomenal coincidence with what it's simbols mean to some religions, (cristianity not included you wont find any of that in the bible)
What would be more suspicios than talk about orisis horus ra , and mention them in your lecture over and over, again and again, then It must be that the simbols are atribuited to them, history atribuits the simbols to them so thats just another coincidence.
Who is going to belive you
It's out, people know, get over it, if it were one you would take care of him, but since it's milions and milions who share my view it's becoming an open source.
I'm sorry that you all gather up here on the forum,but it wont change alot, crediblity is esential, with explenations offerd by felow masons nothing will become and turn, because the explenations do not offer credibility.

When it says black on white "MASONARY IS A RELIGION" albert pike said it, you come up with an explenation that what he ment is that he was refering to it as simbolic, but never the less it says it clear.
You come up with explenations for altar, every one know what an altar is, people just know about it, it's not a UFO , it's an altar, and people know it's meaning, so trowing words like that wont work.