Religion is not the big killer. Masonry is.

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posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
crediblity is esential



Perhaps someday you'll take that to heart.




When it says black on white "MASONARY IS A RELIGION" albert pike said it, you come up with an explenation that what he ment is that he was refering to it as simbolic, but never the less it says it clear.


Ok, so you claim that Pike says "Masonary (sic) is a religion". But what did he REALLY say?

Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it. - Morals and Dogma (p. 161)

Remember that credibility thing?



[edit on 19-6-2006 by Masonic Light]




posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 12:49 PM
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Ok, so you claim that Pike says "Masonary (sic) is a religion". But what did he REALLY say?

Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it. - Morals and Dogma (p. 161)

Remember that credibility thing?



[edit on 19-6-2006 by Masonic Light]

albert pike, black on white.


Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instructions in religion



[edit on 19-6-2006 by pepsi78]



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 01:25 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
1 why take an oath???to what?? what???secreets??? why???? there must something bad .
If the secret were something positive that would help the world why keep it a secret, why even take an oath? for what? it would serve for what?
If it were something positive then I dont see the need for oaths that makes you keep a secret, I dont see the reason for oaths.

Hey Pepsi

I thought you were all done here, but I guess not. Actually, I thought I was all done here too as ML and Hobbes are doing a much better job of addressing your 'concerns' than I ever could. But I just can't believe that you don't know about the oaths
.

It's been outlined on several occasions that the promises taken by freemasons are to keep secret the 'modes of recognition' e.g. the mechanisms we have to distinguish freemasons from non-freemasons. That's all. Nothing else. These are the 'secrets of freemasonry' in this context.

Just to clarify, this means that oaths, vows, promises or whatever you want to call them are not taken for any other reason.

Freemasons do not take an oath to assist each other
Freemasons do not take an oath to break the law
Freemasons do not take an oath to kill people who break masonic rules
Freemasons do not take an oath to kill other masons who reveal the secrets
There is no masonic 'vow of silence'

A man, a freemason, is judged on the ability to keep his word. By making promises to keep inviolate the secrets and mysteries of the order we are symbolically demonstrating that we are trustworthy. This is demonstrated by the true penalty for revealing the secrets (as opposed to the symbolic ones):


... in the certain knowledge that on the violation of any of them I shall be branded as a willfully perjured individual, void of all moral worth, and totally unfit to be received into this worshipful Lodge, or any other warranted Lodge, or society of men who prize honour and virtue above the external advantages of rank and fortune. (Emulation Ritual)


To a true man of honor this is a far more fearsome punishment.

Does that answer your question?



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 01:58 PM
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It’s a shame so much time and effort is used trying to change the mind of someone who will no doubt never be swayed form there ignorant thoughts. They will just think what they will no matter how much evidence is there to show them that there wrong.



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 02:25 PM
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Pike is painfully clear that Masonry is not a religion. "Masonry is not a religion" You can't get much more clear than that. He states it outright, and therefore agrees with every other Mason in the world.

If you ask a Mason what his religion is, how many are going to say "Masonry"? Not many, that's for sure.



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 03:49 PM
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i hate how the typical mason bashers put the church up on a pedestal


First off, if you take me for a "mason basher" then you have completely misunderstood the points I've been trying to raise. I believe in free will, and tolerance of other decisions people choose to make. I have never called any one of you idiots, or lessers because you are Freemasons. I know that Freemasonry has many positive contributions, and is largely made up of good people. Likewise, so are many christians. In the end, all of us here, I believe, have good intentions at heart. I've used quotes from others- that I have not created- to express Freemasonry from others points of view. Personally, I believe the only insurance of eternal salvation is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as savior- though all of you have free will- therefore you can believe anything you want.

Additionally, I know how many churchs are completely off base and represent none of the truisms that sincere christians hold sacred. For instance look at Westboro! Holding signs saying "Thank god for IEDs" or "God hates Fags." This is not a christian outlook, and therefore this cannot be a christian church.

The only points that I have tryed to raise are as follows:

1.) The attempt of universal gnosticism perpetuated by the Freemasons. This in turn does violate the soverignity of these conglomerated religions in many peoples' eyes.

2.) The overt sexism in Freemasonry.

3.) The truth behind William Morgan's death.

4.) The parallels between Freemasonry and Religion.

5.) The utmost clarification of every aspect of Biblical Doctrine. (Not so much a "point" Just something else I have done in this post.)

My efforts were not to belittle any of you, just to debate my points with you, which I will continue to do.



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 04:11 PM
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This also has to come up. What in the world were the Freemasons attempting to convey with the Murals at DIV? (Denver international Airport.)

It has been proven to be a Freemasonic project.


Here are the some of the Murals:



Larger image of the first







Maybe one of the Freemasons on this board could give me their opinion on it...



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 08:39 PM
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Looks like a representation of the horror of war or something... The gas-masked figure is impaling the dove of peace, so that's my best guess.

Are you going to try and tell us that this is some kind of proof of the evil of Freemasonry?

You should definitely check out the Ephesians 5:11 forum, dude. You'll find it full of like-minded people who don't let the facts get in the way of a good scaremongering.



posted on Jun, 20 2006 @ 12:45 AM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
1 why take an oath???to what?? what???secreets??? why???? there must something bad .


Well, just throwing it out there:

1) Could be that we don't want people to be spoiled, when they might go through our rituals. Spoilers are no fun... why read the book if you already know that Snape kills Dumbledore?

2) Could be that it's a trade secret. For instance, McDonalds won't tell you what's in the secret sauce, and KFC won't tell you what the 11 herbs and spices are. Doesn't make them evil - makes them protective of their property.

3) Could be that it's just flat none of your business. Just sayin'...



If the secret were something positive that would help the world why keep it a secret, why even take an oath?


Who said it would help (or even hinder) the world?


What would be more suspicios than talk about orisis horus ra , and mention them in your lecture over and over, again and again


Ok, gloves are off. I challenge you to find one (1) instance of Osirus, Horus, or Ra in any of the lectures of the Blue Lodge.


It's out, people know, get over it, if it were one you would take care of him, but since it's milions and milions who share my view it's becoming an open source.


Reality check: the are not millions and millions of people that share your view. I doubt if there are hundreds that share your particular strain of close-mindedness and hate.

On the other hand, there ARE millions and millions of Freemasons, and a vast community of non-masons that support and appreciate us.


When it says black on white "MASONARY IS A RELIGION" albert pike said it


Even if that were true, so what? Pike is unknown to most masons, and is of little importance to most of the rest. His words belong to him alone, not the whole of masonry.

To give you a parallel, how about this statement from me: "Pepsi78 is a terrorist."

I'm sure my words mean as little to you, as Pike's do to me... and so, as you assert, my statement is a fact.

And I'll be darned if I'm going to listen to a terrorist lecture me on Freemasonry...



posted on Jun, 20 2006 @ 01:20 AM
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2) Could be that it's a trade secret. For instance, McDonalds won't tell you what's in the secret sauce, and KFC won't tell you what the 11 herbs and spices are. Doesn't make them evil - makes them protective of their property.

So you telling me there are secrets?
Mecdonalds is a company that makes profits by seling products to customers.
How would masonary profit form the world like mecdonalds do, influence? since your not selling anything.


3) Could be that it's just flat none of your business. Just sayin'...

Why did you join the forum, to keep the secret? this is a conspiracy theory forum.



Who said it would help (or even hinder) the world?

Then why the secret?, since it wont help the world it would besomething negative, every thing has a negative or a positive, it's either left or right.




Ok, gloves are off. I challenge you to find one (1) instance of Osirus, Horus, or Ra in any of the lectures of the Blue Lodge.

The blue lodge does not represent masonary in the whole picture, I do know that other masonic lodges use albert pike for lecture, so why you trying to excuse him from the big picture?



To give you a parallel, how about this statement from me: "Pepsi78 is a terrorist."

I'm sure my words mean as little to you, as Pike's do to me... and so, as you assert, my statement is a fact.

And I'll be darned if I'm going to listen to a terrorist lecture me on Freemasonry...

I'm not the one that reads such lectures and then go by them, I'm not the one who joins secret sociaties, I'm not the one taking oaths in front of a group of people behind closed dors with a rope around my throat or blind folded, usualy radicals do that.


I dont care if you belive in kabal satan , I really dont, there are satanists groups that do and people dont hold intrest for them, because they know their out there, it's not a secret, they dont really care and the people who join , joins by knowing what they are geting in, I would say masonary is different when people dont know what they are joining, so I'm really doing this for others, so they would think twice before joining, I dont even want to convince you , because I cant, but I can convice others who think masonary is in total compability with crestianity to think twice before joining.


[edit on 20-6-2006 by pepsi78]



posted on Jun, 20 2006 @ 01:40 AM
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Originally posted by Distracto
The only points that I have tryed to raise are as follows:

1.) The attempt of universal gnosticism perpetuated by the Freemasons. This in turn does violate the soverignity of these conglomerated religions in many peoples' eyes.

2.) The overt sexism in Freemasonry.

3.) The truth behind William Morgan's death.

4.) The parallels between Freemasonry and Religion.

5.) The utmost clarification of every aspect of Biblical Doctrine. (Not so much a "point" Just something else I have done in this post.)


At last, a little civility in here. Yay!

My responses to your points:

1) Some folks believe that in the catagory of religion, it's got to be their way or the highway. Our take on it, as a whole, is to be religion blind... asserting only that faith is important. I don't understand how the concept - if understood - could offend anyone but an intolerant fanatic.

Masons gather together for a non-religious purpose; the interjection of secular religion, therefore, is inappropriate.

2) We could argue about this one for hours... we persist as a men's only group because of tradition. We are far from the only group around that is restricted by sex. I don't see why it is an issue.

It is easier to remain harmonius with men-only and women-only groups, as opposed to those of mixed-gender.

3) No one knows the truth about the alleged murder. And since the concept is innocent until proven guilty, this should not be an issue.

If Masons killed Morgan, then it is despicable and they should have been punished. They would clearly not be worthy of the honor of the title 'Mason'. No Mason is above the law and every Mason has a duty to his country and its laws.

4) What parallels between Masonry and religion? We are an organization that holds both spirituality and tolerance of individual faith as virtues. We do not provide our own secular faith - we don't define sin or salvation, specify a holy doctrine, or define Deity or the divine mysteries.

5) "The utmost clarification of every aspect of Biblical Doctrine." What would we care about Biblical Doctrine for? We are not a Christian organization, nor purport to be. Sure, some of the things we subscribe to as an organization are mentioned as Good Things (TM) in the Bible - such as charity, faith, selflessness, fellowship. They are a common good of society, and appear in the 'rulebooks' of pretty much any religion.



posted on Jun, 20 2006 @ 01:50 AM
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How much evidence do we need just to know freemasonry is a religion. How much more evidence do we need to support the theory that the illuminati is the anti christ in the flesh. How can masonry be in control of all the banks and not coincidentally be linked to the end of the world and end time rapture?

How do you freemasons still have the nerve to think you can sway our minds into believing masonry ISNT a religion?

Why cant fellow masons mention jesus christ to another brother in blue lodges?



posted on Jun, 20 2006 @ 02:30 AM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
So you telling me there are secrets?


Sure.



Mecdonalds is a company that makes profits by seling products to customers.
How would masonary profit form the world like mecdonalds do, influence?


Call it social Darwinism, if you like.

There are people out there that believe in being a good person, in thankless charity, in personal honor, and other such values. If you bring those people together, they remain strong in their convictions. They do what they can to help other good people prosper. Other folks, who are not so good, do not prosper. The world naturally and progressively becomes a better place. The craft profits.



Why did you join the forum, to keep the secret? this is a conspiracy theory forum.


I joined to read up on political and scientific matters. I found this section by accident. The 'facts' provided by folks like you urged me to look deeper into the fraternity (something I'd done passively for years).



Then why the secret?, since it wont help the world it would besomething negative, every thing has a negative or a positive, it's either left or right.


Not true at all.

Let's say that I know the twist ending of the next Harry Potter book. You've not read it, but want to. If I tell you, it will ruin it for you. So I keep it secret, so you will enjoy the book when you read it.

That secret does not 'help' the world. It doesn't really affect it. But it certainly is not a negative thing.



The blue lodge does not represent masonary in the whole picture, I do know that other masonic lodges use albert pike for lecture, so why you trying to excuse him from the big picture?


You demonstrate a startling lack of knowledge about Freemasonry. Freemasonry consists of three degrees. The lodges that confer those degrees are nicknamed the Blue Lodges. That is the whole of Freemasonry.

As I explained before, there is another group called the Scottish Rite, that expands upon the teachings of Freemasonry. They meet in 'valleys', not lodges... but even if you say 'well, that's just a name change, they are still lodges!!!1!', you will still not find Pike's work. He only worked in the United States, and in the Southern Jurisdiction. And that was a long time ago. His contributions have certainly fallen prey to the pen of revision, by now.

Morals and Dogma is not, as you assert, canon for any masonic or quasi-masonic group.



I'm not the one that reads such lectures and then go by them


Did well in school, I imagine?



I'm not the one who joins secret sociaties


Neither did I. I joined an organization that meets at a publically posted time, in an openly marked (and historic) building adjacent to our city green.


I'm not the one taking oaths in front of a group of people behind closed dors with a rope around my throat or blind folded, usualy radicals do that.


Sounds like the kind of accusation a terrorist would sling.

Radical - adj. - Favoring or effecting fundamental or revolutionary changes in current practices, conditions, or institutions.

Quite right. I favor a fundimental change in human nature. That is pretty radical.


I would say masonary is different when people dont know what they are joining, so I'm really doing this for others, so they would think twice before joining


Fantastic. You are trying to scare people off from an organization you 1) don't understand, 2) are intent on maligning, 3) do not belong to, and lack true insight upon.

I commend your mission. We traditionally don't recruit... so we rely upon folks like you to drive people to Freemasonry. Keep up the good work.

I'm rather curious, though... since you have this mission to make people think twice. Why do you feel the need to do this? Wouldn't it be more the Christian way to live and let live? Wouldn't it be a Christian's responsibility to do their own research, not listen to you?



posted on Jun, 20 2006 @ 02:46 AM
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Originally posted by topsecretombomb
How much evidence do we need just to know freemasonry is a religion.


A single shred would be a start.



How much more evidence do we need to support the theory that the illuminati is the anti christ in the flesh.


Ok, seriously... the 'anti-christ' is a religious principle. You can't 'prove' such a 'theory'. You can believe, or not believe. But don't try to make it sound scientific.

I highly doubt that there is an 'Illuminati', regardless. Even if there is, Freemasonry is not it.



How can masonry be in control of all the banks and not coincidentally be linked to the end of the world and end time rapture?


A) Please cite your references and disclosure that show that Freemasonry is in control of 'all the banks'. I'd even settle for one.

B) 'End of the world' and 'End time rapture'. Again, you are trying to push religious principles into the debate, and establish a cause-effect link.



How do you freemasons still have the nerve to think you can sway our minds into believing masonry ISNT a religion?


Because we aren't one?

And even if we were, how would YOU have the nerve to tell us what faith we can and cannot have?

We're not trying to sway anything. The accusation was laid down that we are a religion. The statement is false, and we 'have the nerve' to correct our accusers.



Why cant fellow masons mention jesus christ to another brother in blue lodges?


We gather in lodges for non-religious reasons. Why would it be appropriate to mention any secular faith? Not everyone present even subscribes to that faith, so you'd be forcing your beliefs on others.

Besides, then you're making an already long business meeting even longer.



posted on Jun, 20 2006 @ 03:32 AM
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A single shred would be a start.

Albert pike, morals&dogma



posted on Jun, 20 2006 @ 04:13 AM
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Originally posted by pepsi78


A single shred would be a start.

Albert pike, morals&dogma



Maaan - you're a slow learner


Not happy with MLs explanation? Like to see another?


Basic Statement

Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. It demands of its members a belief in a Supreme Being but provides no system of faith of its own.

Freemasonry is open to men of all religious faiths. The discussion of religion at its meetings is forbidden.

Freemasonry Compared with Religion

Freemasonry lacks the basic elements of religion.

a) it has no theological doctrine, and by forbidding religious discussion at its meetings will not allow a Masonic theological doctrine to develop.

b) It offers no sacraments.

c) It does not claim to lead to salvation by works, by secret knowledge or by any other means. The secrets of Freemasonry are concerned with modes of recognition and not with salvation.

Freemasonry Supports Religion

Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion. Without interfering in religious practice it expects each member to follow his own faith, and to place above all other duties his duty to God, by whatever name He is known. Its moral teachings are acceptable to all religions.

Freemasonry is thus a supporter of religion.

Source: www.grandlodge-england.org...


Freemasonry is not a religion - this has been demonstrated many times. Perhaps you could give another example of why you believe freemasonry is a religion (other than the fact that some lodges have an item of furniture in them called an altar)?



posted on Jun, 20 2006 @ 04:33 AM
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Originally posted by Hobbes

I've not seen such a thing in any lodge I've visited - and the list is getting rapidly lengthy. So this is where I will proclaim you to be a liar with an agenda.

guess again, here let me prove it to you with some pictures



www.thegoldenreport.com...



www.thegoldenreport.com...


www.thegoldenreport.com...

So you calling me a liar?
Where is your crediblity now?
Eye and piramid all in one, I guess that is a coincidence also
especialy that it represents the god's of egipt.

So might you explain to me why the eye is on the piramid, since you said that you dont have such simbols and you called me a liar.


[edit on 20-6-2006 by pepsi78]



posted on Jun, 20 2006 @ 04:36 AM
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maybe Trinityman can explain?



posted on Jun, 20 2006 @ 04:57 AM
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Originally posted by yin_yang
i said it last year, ill say it again...i wish my fellow brothers could just ignore these questions and accusations.


Though I am not a Mason myself, I think your comments work for any organization. You are correct in the fact that those that truly seek will find the answers that work for them and the "others" may take lifetimes to "get it". But being human nature I think it is hard not to defend your beliefs to the sceptics, even though we know in our hearts that our words just fall on deaf ears... but perhaps once in a while we may get through to someone, perhaps not the one we are arguing the point with, but some quiet listener in the background.

At least that sounds like a good reason to try... {much better that saying we humans just love a good debate/argument}

But as a quiet listener myself I have found many answers in my own quest for knowledge that I may have never discovered had it not been for some interesting thread.



posted on Jun, 20 2006 @ 05:05 AM
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Originally posted by topsecretombomb How can masonry be in control of all the banks and not coincidentally be linked to the end of the world and end time rapture?



topsecretombomb

Can you explain to me why you and so many other christian are so obsessed with the "End Time"? What's your hurry to get there? Why not enjoy life instead of sitting around waiting for doomsday and attacking those that know how to make their life meaningful?

If the end is coming soon as you believe, then shouldn't you be getting your soul ready?

Just curious





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