Religion is not the big killer. Masonry is.

Originally posted by Distracto
To be honest my only real problem is how freemasons masquerade themselves as an organization that embodies Christian values.

We don't, and we aren't. We are not a Christian organization, and don't claim to be.

That said, many of the principles that we hold as sacred are *also* Christian values.

If they did, they would not be as secretive. Nothing about christianity is hidden from the christian.

If there was no secrecy in Christianity, the authors and movie makers wouldn't be making so much money lately...

We have our 'secrets' primarily for one reason - the same reason that movie posters don't have the twist ending printed upon them.

Correct the situation! Open your doors to those interested and let them stand in to witness your ceremonies!

So little do you understand... our ceremonies are not our secrets. Far, far from it. They're just... ceremonial.

Make all your knowledge public!

All of our knowledge is public. You just don't know any better.

Jesus christ never hid anything, so if you wish to truely be an organization that embodies christian values maybe you should put an end to the secrecy and follow the teaching of christ!

We'll keep that in mind, should we ever want to go down that road. Hold your breath until we do.

Its offensive to christians, and if you consider yourselves tolerant of others faiths don't disgrace the sovereignty of those faiths by attempting to make some secular conglomeration of them.

Again, you misunderstand. We don't seek to make a conglomeration. We are simply nonsecular - we don't care in whom you place your faith.

Originally posted by Distracto
Ever more fascinating. Aleister Crowley was a 33rd degree freemason.

There is no such thing. Perhaps you meant he was a Master Mason that had attained the 33rd degree in the Scottish Rite?

And no, he didn't. He was not a member of any regular, recognized lodge.

I find it very hard to believe he was a member of a oranization that supposedly embodies Christian Values.

What organization would that be? Masonry does not embody Christian Values, or claim to.

Originally posted by Distracto
All should accept women as members, if they don't they are sexist by banning entry according to sex.

No, no we shouldn't. We are an organization of men, in intention and design.

There is nothing wrong with it, either... nor is there anything wrong with my college fraternity, the segregation of men's and women's bathrooms, the girl's night out, bachelor parties, the Boy Scouts, or the woman's only gym down the street.

Exclusivity by sex is our right and priviledge... in the United States, for instance, we have the Constitutional right of assembly. We can choose to meet with whomever we choose, and bar entry to whomever we choose.

Originally posted by Distracto
In addition, I have never heard of a female Royal Arch Mason (4th deg and above) inside of a traditional lodge...

Only men can be Masons. The Eastern Star is masonic in feel and spirit, but it is definitely not Freemasonry.

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[edit on 19-6-2006 by AgentSmith]

I said.

Additionally, a sin against the brotherhood does not correspond to a sin against God.

Hobbes said

Are you claiming that it should be?

Now, the entire paragraph of what I said.
Swearing allegience to a brotherhood under pain of death is not loving a sinner. Its pledging punishment to a sinner. Its does not even relate whatsoever. It is a binding oath put forth to terrify the initiate into not reveling your brotherhoods secrets. Additionally, a sin against the brotherhood does not correspond to a sin against God. Please don't tell me you compare your brotherhood with divine providence.

Attempting to misinterpert what I said, so you can debunk it later is rather cunning-but immature nonetheless. I don't understand why you're so hostile to others beliefs if you in fact are so tolerant.

Lets not forget your order KILLED Captian William Morgan for exposing the freemasonic rites of the first 3 degrees. It is proven. If you want challenge me on this fact, do so at your own risk. Its been proven, and collabrated by one of the Masonic assailants on his deathbed. Freemasonic membership almost dried up overnight- but lucky for the Masons, people have forgotten.
His tombstone.


This caused John Quincy Adams to write:
I do conscientiously and sincerely believe that the Order of Freemasonry, if not the greatest, is one of the greatest moral and political evils...

Hobbes wrote in reference to the bible:

I'd debate you on this if it wasn't so far off-topic.

Religious parallels inside Freemasonry, when you don't consider yourself a religious organization is, in fact, very much on topic.

The truth is that Masonry embraces a form of Universalist Gnosticism that attempts to consolidate differentiating religious practices by violating the sovereignty of those faiths.

I wrote

The truth is your order is sexist by any definition.

Hobbes wrote

So what?

So what? Its that very ideology that men and women seek to correct to create a society that is *truely* devoute to equality.




[edit on 18-6-2006 by Distracto]

NO actually it's not a fact nor has it ever been PROVEN!!!! There was no body, there was no weapon. Only hearsay and contraversy. nothing more.

If you say it's been proven then wheres your proof? what information do you have that you and ONLY you are privalidged too? should you have some i'd say your just as bad as any mason for not devulging your "secrets".

so here's my take on all this mumbo-jumbo...if you dont like masonry, ok. DONT BECOME A MASON. we dont want you anways. your not going to change anyones mind by throwing idiotic blasts out there. NOR are you going to deture us and convince us into quitting...so what is your main objective here? so far it seems that you just wanna hear yourself talk.

I found this to be an interesting website..www.darknessradio.com...

Originally posted by Hobbes
We didn't say that we used it for nothing. We said we don't use it for the religious implications you were inferring.

Nice going but an altar by definition cant be used for something else.

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[edit on 19-6-2006 by AgentSmith]

A direct contradiction to the bible.

James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither BY ANY OTHER OATH: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

Here we can see oaths only serve satan

Matt 5:33-37 “Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.” (from the devil)

masonary is in direct contradiction to the bible.


further more
from pike:
pages 474-477

We have therefore, in the 24th degree (Masonic Ritual), recited the principal incidents in the legend of Osiris and Isis
siris and Isis were the Sun and Moon … and is the All-Seeing Eye in our Lodges

[edit on 19-6-2006 by pepsi78]

You're disobeying God as well if you're wearing any clothes made from more than one type of fabric... It's in the bible, so I guess it must be true and universal and doesn't require independent thought.

If that's the best you can do in your (obvious) quest to demonise Freemasonry by whatever means necessary, then I'd say that Freemasonry has been enormously successful as an honourable fraternity espousing higher values/principles for its members.

[edit on 19-6-2006 by Roark]

Originally posted by Roark
You're disobeying God as well if you're wearing any clothes made from more than one type of fabric... It's in the bible, so I guess it must be true and universal and doesn't require independent thought.

If that's the best you can do in your (obvious) quest to demonise Freemasonry by whatever means necessary, then I'd say that Freemasonry has been enormously successful as an honourable fraternity espousing higher values/principles for its members.

I see no argument,o I must understand that I'm right


[edit on 19-6-2006 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by Roark
You're disobeying God as well if you're wearing any clothes made from more than one type of fabric... It's in the bible, so I guess it must be true and universal and doesn't require independent thought.

If that's the best you can do in your (obvious) quest to demonise Freemasonry by whatever means necessary, then I'd say that Freemasonry has been enormously successful as an honourable fraternity espousing higher values/principles for its members.

[edit on 19-6-2006 by Roark]

plus..... I did not call you evil or anything I just said it's in contradiction to the bible,maybe satan for you means love
who knows, every one can eblive in what they want.
So if I want to belive it's a conspiracy based on the facts I have I'm free to do that.



[edit on 19-6-2006 by pepsi78]

Oh, you can believe anything you want, no doubt about it.

Many here believe that Freemasons are shapeshifting reptiloids. Not my bag personally, but there you go.

You might find Ephesians 5:11 or Gaiaguys guys' forums interesting.

It clearly says that

The All-Seeing Eye is the emblem of Osiris the Creator' whose 'power was symbolized by an eye over a Sceptre. The Sun was termed by the Greeks the Eye of Jupiter, and the Eye of the world; and his (Osiris') is the All-Seeing Eye in our lodges' - Albert Pike, Morals & Dogma: pages 15-16

It's in your morals and dogma book



[edit on 19-6-2006 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78
Nice going but an altar by definition cant be used for something else.

Ok, so if an altar can *only* and *absolutely* be used for religious activities, and we don't use it for religious activities, but still use it for some purpose... what then?

Ok, so if an altar can *only* and *absolutely* be used for religious activities, and we don't use it for religious activities, but still use it for some purpose... what then?

look the definition of an altar up


[edit on 19-6-2006 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78
A direct contradiction to the bible.

SNIP

Here we can see oaths only serve satan

Sweet. So when a priest swears his oaths, upon being ordained, he is serving Satan. That is awesome.

Originally posted by pepsi78
I just said it's in contradiction to the bible,maybe satan for you means love

Satan, for most folks, is a fictional character out of someone else's religion.

See, that's part of what I like about Freemasonry. I know that none of my brothers are ever going to try to impose narrow-minded religious views upon me. Can't say so much for the rest of the world.

Originally posted by Hobbes

Originally posted by pepsi78
A direct contradiction to the bible.

SNIP

Here we can see oaths only serve satan

Sweet. So when a priest swears his oaths, upon being ordained, he is serving Satan. That is awesome.

You got the bible saying not to take any oaths, I dont care about the priest , were talking about masonary, why you comparing other stuff with masonary?, I'm just stating it's in contradiction, the subject if it's good or bad it's not the case here.
I like it when you guys run out of ideas, then you go and compare masonary to other thigs.

See, that's part of what I like about Freemasonry. I know that none of my brothers are ever going to try to impose narrow-minded religious views upon me. Can't say so much for the rest of the world

No, your lectures teach different

plus.... you forgot to comment on this.

By pike

The All-Seeing Eye is the emblem of Osiris the Creator' whose 'power was symbolized by an eye over a Sceptre. The Sun was termed by the Greeks the Eye of Jupiter, and the Eye of the world; and his (Osiris') is the All-Seeing Eye in our lodges' - Albert Pike, Morals & Dogma: pages 15-16

everything is in contradiction to the bible.

bible quoting

And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord's house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they WORSHIPPED THE SUN TOWARD THE EAST. Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, 0 son of man? Is it a light thing...to commit the abominations which they commit here

You got pike quoting that orisis and the sun is the representation of the eye in your lodge, the statement is made direct.

You got the bible saing otherwise, the bible points out it's not the simbol of god,since they pray to it they must think it represents god, but I guess the bible says otherwise.

Again direct contradiction



[edit on 19-6-2006 by pepsi78]