NEWS: Pastor protests the rights of fallen American soldiers to a peaceful burial

Freedom_for_sum I am aware of James Madison's viewpoint as well as the viewpoints of many other founding fathers and I will repeat what I said earlier because what I said is what they believed as a group.

Fred Phelps is obviously COINTELPRO, a stooge who is there to agitate people and to defame Christianity. Why intelligent people here at ATS take such stories for face value and further reinforce the homosexual agenda which is a globalism move to crush the family and make government your Big Brother, or Father, is totally beyond me. Hey this does not mean I personally disparage anyone, it is the high profile of the homosexual agenda, and its dominance, that clearly indicates its globalist mission. High financial circles are backing this with big money, including the bigots to reinforce their brainwashing. Wake up!

Originally posted by SkipShipman
Fred Phelps is obviously COINTELPRO, a stooge who is there to agitate people and to defame Christianity. Why intelligent people here at ATS take such stories for face value and further reinforce the homosexual agenda which is a globalism move to crush the family and make government your Big Brother, or Father, is totally beyond me. Hey this does not mean I personally disparage anyone, it is the high profile of the homosexual agenda, and its dominance, that clearly indicates its globalist mission. High financial circles are backing this with big money, including the bigots to reinforce their brainwashing. Wake up!

really??? Truthfully I thought the guy was a crazy loon that had gone off the deep end and well, society really needs to do something to reign him in, and not just for the sake of the bereaved.....but his own. that homosexuality is somehow related to this is very much overshadowed by the fact that he making making what is a very difficult time for people much more difficult...to promote his political/religious beleif just goes to reinforce the idea that the guy is nuts!!!

Originally posted by Youngblood_USA
I really don't agree with the protesting, simply for the fact that this country alone was based on the fact that all is welcome, under any banner, religion or ethical background, and free to choose whatsoever life they desire, their judgement is God's, not man's. The U.S. was founded on the fact that government should not dictate ANYONE's choices or way of life, however it was founded on Old Testatment principles. Our very declaration was derived from it and based upon it's teaching.

The declaration of independence? Its not based on the Old Testament. Hell, the guy that wrote it was an out and out deist, who cut out the portions of his bible that involed miracles.

And if you believe in what the Holy Scriptures say, Homosexuality is a sin, and will hinder you from entering the gates of Heaven.
Where does it say that? I see where it says its an abomination. I also see where it says eating shrimp is 'an abomination'. Is eating a cocktail going to keep you out of heaven as much as eating a....er, nevermind.

So if I was a liberal then I would not go to Iraq unless I had to.

If you were a soldier, regardless of your political affliations, you'd have to go to war when it was declared.

Astronomer68
Sixty years ago the man would have been beat to a pulp, shot, or lynched for what he is doing

Sixty years ago this guy'd've been more mainstream. 60 years ago people'd be upset that he was interupting a funeral, but be more likely to agree with his general idea.

hey did not believe the church should stay out of the state. On the contrary, they felt strongly that religion could and should provide enlightened guidance to the state.

They created the wall of seperation primarily to protect the churches from the state, to protect minority religions from the interference of the general public and the secular government.

SkipShipman
Fred Phelps is obviously COINTELPRO, a stooge who is there to agitate people and to defame Christianity.

Why? Because he makes christianity look bad?? Its not possible that he and his church actually beleive that god hates gays? Hell, lots of christians beleive its a sin that will get them sent into permanent punishment in hell, thats pretty close to hate no? Seems like phelps doens't think all that different from lots of christians today, he's just unabashed about it.

Originally posted by SkipShipman
Fred Phelps is obviously COINTELPRO, a stooge who is there to agitate people and to defame Christianity. Why intelligent people here at ATS take such stories for face value and further reinforce the homosexual agenda which is a globalism move to crush the family and make government your Big Brother, or Father, is totally beyond me. Hey this does not mean I personally disparage anyone, it is the high profile of the homosexual agenda, and its dominance, that clearly indicates its globalist mission. High financial circles are backing this with big money, including the bigots to reinforce their brainwashing. Wake up!

First of all, let me say that I'd be as outraged if Phelps was protesting just because he didn't believe in war. The hatred for homosexuals just makes it more reprehensible.

Second, your premise is ridiculous. 'Nuff said.

Originally posted by SkipShipman
Fred Phelps is obviously COINTELPRO, a stooge who is there to agitate people and to defame Christianity. Why intelligent people here at ATS take such stories for face value and further reinforce the homosexual agenda which is a globalism move to crush the family and make government your Big Brother, or Father, is totally beyond me. Hey this does not mean I personally disparage anyone, it is the high profile of the homosexual agenda, and its dominance, that clearly indicates its globalist mission. High financial circles are backing this with big money, including the bigots to reinforce their brainwashing. Wake up!

You're ging Phelps far too much credit!

Originally posted by Astronomer68
Freedom_for_sum I am aware of James Madison's viewpoint as well as the viewpoints of many other founding fathers and I will repeat what I said earlier because what I said is what they believed as a group.

With all the problems religion causes in the world why would anyone want religion to influence governmental policies? President Bush's "faith based" initiatives is a backward policy. I resent my tax dollars going toward religious programs. And to be sure; if Phelps provided the kinds of services allowed under this program, he would get some that money. Would you really want that? What about other marginal religious entities? This is the slippery slobe I believe our fore fathers wished to avoid.

I believe you have been duped regarding what our forefathers wished for this country.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
I believe you have been duped regarding what our forefathers wished for this country.

I trust that I am not being too presumptuous to expect that you would recognize these names:

Thomas Jefferson:

Jefferson declared that religion is: "Deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support."

Source

George Washington:

In his Inaugural Speech, April 30, 1789,

"...it would be peculiarly improper to omit, in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes...."

"No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States."

Source

Benjamin Franklin:

Congressional Congress, 1787

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God Governs the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?

"We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

"I therefore beg leave to move--that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service."

Ben Franklin wrote a pamphlet called, "Information to Those who would Remove to America." It was intended to be a guide for Europeans who were thinking of relocating in America. In it he said:

"Hence bad examples to youth are more rare in America, which must be comfortable consideration to parents. To this may be truly added, that serious religion, under its various denominations, is not only tolerated, but respected and practiced.

"Atheism is unknown there; Infidelity rare and secret; so that persons may live to a great age in that country without having their piety shocked by meeting with either an Atheist or an Infidel.

"And the Divine Being seems to have manifested his approbation of the mutual forbearance and kindness with which the different sects treat each other; by the remarkable prosperity with which he has been pleased to favor the whole country."

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That he ought to be worshipped."

Source

John Adams:

June 21, 1776
"Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand.

Oct. 11, 1798 (Address to the military)

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Source

John Quincy Adams:

"From the day of the Declaration...they (the American people) were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of The Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledge as the rules of their conduct."

"I speak as a man of the world to men of the world; and I say to you, Search the Scriptures! The Bible is the book of all others, to be read at all ages, and in all conditions of human life; not to be read in small portions of one or two chapters every day, and never to be intermitted, unless by some overruling necessity."

"Posterity--you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it."

Source

Samuel Adams:

As the Declaration of Independence was being signed, 1776, Samuel Adams declared:

"We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come."

"He therefore is the truest friend to the liberty of this country who tries most to promote its virtue, and who, so far as his power and influence extend, will not suffer a man to be chosen into any office of power and trust who is not a wise and virtuous man....The sum of all is, if we would most truly enjoy this gift of Heaven, let us become a virtuous people."

"He who is void of virtuous attachments in private life is, or very soon will be, void of all regard for his country. There is seldom an instance of a man guilty of betraying his country, who had not before lost the feeling of moral obligations in his private connections." --in a letter to James Warren, Nov. 4, 1775--

"The said constitution shall never be construed to authorize congress to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."

Source

Alexander Hamilton

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man.

Source

Patrick Henry:

"Bad men cannot make good citizens. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience are incompatible with freedom."

"It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains."

On November 20, 1798, in his Last Will and Testament, Patrick Henry wrote:

"This is all the inheritance I give to my dear family. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed."

Source

Thomas Paine:

"The cause of America is in a great measure the cause of all mankind. Where, some say, is the king of America? I'll tell you, friend, He reigns above.

"Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be placed on the divine law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon.

"The Almighty implanted in us these inextinguishable feelings for good and wise purposes. They are the guardians of His image in our heart. They distinguish us from the herd of common animals."

Source

William Penn (Founder of Pennsylvania)

"If thou wouldst rule well, thou must rule for God, and to do that, thou must be ruled by him....Those who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants."

Source

Great quotes, Grady. If some of he greatest leaders and thinkers of early America acknowledge the place of a supreme being in our daily affairs, hey maybe its true. Seriously, that's a who's who of American history.

Grady;

The problem with copying and pasting quotes, out of context, compiled by an individual who clearly is biased on the side of Christian Coservatism, is that while you might get a sense of the depth of religion in each individual's personal life, the quotes fail to clearly represent where they stood on religion's influence in Governmental affairs. Someone saying:[freedom and liberty are tenets bestowed upon us by God] is very different from someone providing religious organizations with taxpayer dollars to provide religion-based indoctrination/education to those who have social problems. The former is simply an opinion--a right everyone has to express. The latter is an action and comes at a cost to the rights of those who are not religious.

And you still haven't answered my question: Would you mind if Phelps and his organization received tax money for social programs qualified under this "faith-based" intiative? Under that "Christain nation" crap Christain conservative like to foist upon everyone, he would be entitled to that money.

"And you still haven't answered my question: Would you mind if Phelps and his organization received tax money for social programs qualified under this "faith-based" intiative? Under that "Christain nation" crap Christain conservative like to foist upon everyone, he would be entitled to that money."

-----------------------------------

oh, hush your mouth now, don't give the Phelps any ideas!! If I ever found out that the gov't was providing him funding to go and disrupt funerals, ummm.....I'd have to make myself "tax-exempt" again!! I like my job, I like having money again......this would make me very unhappy!!!

but, give them enough time, and well, time to feel comfortable that their new found funding won't be challenged, and well, soon, they would be griping about how this or that particular denomination is getting the faith based funding, even though their are errors in this or that doctrine....
which is the original purpose of the separation of the church and state to begin with, just who's defination of "morality" should we accept as supreme?? why is the separation of church and state a topic here anyways....does it anyway justify the act of disrupting funerals and upsetting people?

Grady very interesting links to the source of the quotes, BTW the man in question is good at twisting the bible to make is own views very believable.

Also the confederate Flags approval from quotes of the bible is also hard to swallow.

And let not forget the nice way that the south quoted the bible in regard to slaves and blacks.

Some even claimed that the bible promoted slavery and slave owners.

Funny but should I said bias.

You have to be careful Grady of people around may think that you are still back in the confederate times of the good old south of slave holders that use the bible and religion to justify everything they did.

I love when religion and the bible is use to fit one size depending on your point of view.

[edit on 11-3-2006 by marg6043]

Originally posted by marg6043
Grady very interesting links to the source of the quotes, BTW the man in question is good at twisting the bible to make is own views very believable.

I don't care what site the quotes come from as long as they are accurate, which they are.

[edit on 2006/3/11 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

I don't care what site the quotes come from as long as they are accurate, which they are.

[edit on 2006/3/11 by GradyPhilpott]

Yes Grady I have learned so far that when it comes to your own opinions you only take what you see fit from a bias side like the link source.

But hey I am guilty as charge too.

But you omitted that the same men that sign the constitution made a clear line between the powers of the government and the involvement of the church.

The times were different and the people in the new world were here to scape from the persecution of their religious believes, no to imposed their own religious views on the emerging new nation.

How easily we forget historical fact in order to justify the actions of others that we agree with to prove a point.

But like I said I am guilty as charge too.

marg, you won't find me espousing a state religion or any evidence that I ever have. What I support is the free expression of religion and the right of people of faith to be guided by their principles in public service as long as those principles are commensurate with the laws of the land. I see nothing extreme or biased about that or acknowledging the fact that the men who founded our nation were believers in the Almighty.

The evidence is everywhere. You'd have to be blind to not see it. If the site hosting those quotes offends you then here is another site.

www.eadshome.com...

But, the Founders were not rabidly religious either and wanted no part of a theocracy and made those feelings clear in statements such as those found here.

www.stephenjaygould.org...

Still, in all, the trend has been to deny the spirituality of the Founders and the guidance which they found in their faith. Indeed, the rights enumerated in our Constitution are not granted by the authors but acknowledged as coming from our Creator.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

The Declaration of Independence of the United States of America

Gee quoting a buncha freemasons that hate religion is supposed to make me hate religion??

yeah right!

It was freemasonry which seperated church and state from what I can tell, they worked to undermine the monarchy in europe and undermine the church for their own ends.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
marg, you won't find me espousing a state religion or any evidence that I ever have. What I support is the free expression of religion and the right of people of faith to be guided by their principles in public service as long as those principles are commensurate with the laws of the land.

I agree with you, is just that the is also other words spoke by our founder fathers on references of religion and state that express the separation or should I say protection of those rights.

Nobody is questioning their faith whatever it was, just making a point that they also were very careful to put a line between religion and state, not just to protect the government but to protect religion from the government.

The laws of the land were written by elites that were freemasons or members of weird non-christian religions. That those kind of people claim that government and religion are seperate is a farce. Their religion has become the state religion:
humanism/socialism/globalism.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
James Madison (father of our Constitution) said that both religion AND government will exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together.

The government should have NO HAND in religion and no religion should be able to influence the government.

The Founding Fathers knew that separation of church and state was most desirable, and they did a great job in integrating that attitude into our laws.

That, however, has absolutely nothing to do with them relying on their faith to guide them as they took on the monumental task of creating our nation's legal foundations.

Having said that, this is straying off-topic, and we should return to the topic posthaste.

Um, you didn't read my post prior to this one did you? That's okay.

the founding fathers were a buncha masons who were taking orders from europe and the banking families were in the process of taking down the church/monarchy dynasties that ran europe. It is quite conceivable that the new world would be a TRIAL RUN of this new system and in fact it became controlled by the few financial elites at the top, and those of what I call FUNNY RELIGIONS.