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When do we get our Liberties back?

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posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 01:40 PM
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What's his point other then he is now off the fact that there are no new laws that are in any way affecting his way of life or freedom and he can not prove that there is, because there are none. they are common sense, stepped up security measures.



www.epic.org...

One way they have afffected another.
news.yahoo.com...

There are plenty of new laws and you are not even aware of them, just as you are not aware of the constitution. I can give you more examples that I myself have experienced, but as you have proven no amount of information will change your opinion. Hey Í'll leave ya alone now. Sorry.




posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 01:45 PM
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I havent seen any Liberties disappear...just the other day I came and went from my apartment..didnt have to check in with anyone,,,didnt have to pass through check points,,,went to the gym worked out. After that I went and caught a movie. After that I looked at some nekkid women on the internet.....after that I bashed our retarded President and corrupted Representatives on Yahoo message boards, read some articles on how 911 and the London bombings were possibly done by our leaders to push their agendas. Today Im just chilling reading about conspiracies on ATS and being silly.

No FBI
No Secret Service
No Unmarked cars
No Knocks at the door


America is still here and life is good



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 01:53 PM
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No Phonix, you have no other example in your own life. You are missing what i am saying, your example of needing another form of id for a cell phone is hardly a libery that is REALLY affecting your way of life here in America.
What liberities of yours have been taken away that has changed your way of life and freedom in America from you doing what you did 5, 10 or 15 years ago. None.
Like i said i needed 2 forms of id to get a bank account in NYC BEFORE 911 or a patriot act and it sucked as i had to go get another id. It did not affect my liberities in the way i lived my life though.
What in the constitution has changed that is getting in the way of your life now that is any different then how you lived before? Stop crying over nothing.
Again, people like you WANT and are WAITING for more and stricter laws that actually do affect your way of life so that you actually have a justified reason to complain.
There are plaenty of inconveinces in life that have nothing to do with the patriot act or new laws or changes in the constitiution. That's life, so deal with it. We still live in a country where there are no new laws that are changing you way of life that really matters. They are simple COMMON SENSE security changes that NEED to be done to send even the littlest message to terrorist's.
Live in NYC and ride the subway everyday and then complain about the LITTLE thing of stepped up bag searches. The fact is that even with all the new securt=ity measures NYC is still an easy target. There are to many people there of all different types of lifestyles and races and there is always to much going on for authorites to actually stopp something if someone really wants to do something. At least with the new LITTLE stepped up security measures they are trying to do what they can.
Again, your solution is to do nothing just so you don't have to get another form of ID for a cell phone or that you might (but proabably never will) have your bags briefly searched.
Please already.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 01:54 PM
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Thanks Magnito, my points exactly.
Try doing that in China or in places in the middle east.
Here though we have crybabies that complain that bag searches are being stepped up, even after what just happened in London. And the bag searches are only in certain places like NYC's subway. It does not even affect most people in america.
I could walk around all day with a backpack in Phila. on any train or bus, in any movie theater and i would not be searched. That's how it is in most places, yet people on here are coplaining that their "liberities" are now being taken away.
Please.
and as far as land being seized, i already brought up how the majority of americans do not have enough land, if any at all, that the gov't would even want for anything. Yet people on here are now afraid that land that they do not even own and land that they will more then likely never own is going to be seized by the gov't.
PHENOIX, i read the one link you put up about the "bird thing". So what is your point? Anyone with common sense who reads that can see it is a nessary thing that had to happen there. And it is hardly affecting anyones liberities in a way that is ruining their way of life. It is clearly a nessasry measure that needed to happen there with the times we live in. Are you serious in using that as an example to make your point?
so what you are saying is they should do nothing to appease some bird watchers even though it could cost lives if an attack was carried out on a water supply, etc., etc.?
And again, to be clear, i am no fan of the bush admistration, but they have yet to do anything that has really affected the average american's way of life or liberties. The things that have been done are needed and more security is needed that they are not doing.


[edit on 30-7-2005 by GREGNOW]



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 02:16 PM
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Sorry Greggnow but I am a bit bored.

Just because you live a typical American life and have not been affected means squat. I gave you a minor example and i can give more.

Would you like to hear about when I went to go protest the RNC and they tried herding me into a "free speech zone"?How about the endless lines I have to maneuver every time I fly somewhere?How about the ever intrusive security measures I have to pass through after waiting in said line?(FYI- Hypoglycemia is a GREAT excuse to get away from security, lines, and illegal detentions) How about the stress of passing soldiers and police on subway stations and streets with Automatic rifles on a daily basis?

I can go on and on.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 02:19 PM
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as posted by GREGNOW
So Seekerof, don't tell me what i should and should not know about using the word ignorant. Read the whole thread, otherwise you to are simply making an ignorant comment yourself.

As a matter of fact I did read the entire thread and the exchange.
So your basically saying that you reserve the right to drop to another persons level of insults, etc?

Be careful of who you label ignorant for there are many who would consider what you are doing by dropping to anothers level as being the embodiment of ignorance.....how about deny doing so?






seekerof



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 02:58 PM
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Oh phonix , you poor thing. All the examples you use are pathetic. It just backs my point about none of those things doing anything that has anything to do with REALLY affecting your way of life.
I lived in NYC for 5 years, 3 of them after 911, so what armed soldiers are you even talking about on subways, etc? now and then there were a few here and there but hardly out in full force. So where is it you live that they are using armed soldiers nbow to gaurd the subways? and even if they are how does it "stress" you out. you sound even sadder then you did before.
All these things, including more security at airports are nessary to prevent future attacks, so what are you complaining about? You sound pathetic. In your view there should now be no security at airports or subways so that you can get through an airport quicker??? As far as security at subways, they are not holding anyone up so what are you stressed about?
So what you are saying is that we should now not have security on subways and airports so that you can get around a little quicker and not be "stressed" out over nothing? What you are saying is we should just let 911 happen all over again or the same thing happen here that just happened in London?
After these last examples i really can not bother to comment on your posts anymore.
Blame the terrorist's for the added security, not the authorities that are trying to prevent what they can, so mthat people like you have the chance to stay alive and complain about your "liberties" being taken away.
You poor thing, i am so sorry your life has changed so much now. Please.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 03:02 PM
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Seekerof, i agree with your point and understand what you are saying but i just got really pissed that this no nothing of the military whose never been a soldier made the kind of comments he did to try and be smart when he clearly was ignorant in what he was saying. Just like his comment on snipers. He is a sorry individual that needs to move to China or some other country other then America to see how good he actually has it here, instead of making it sound like his "liberties" are being taken away and affecting his way of life in any way that really matters. Boo Hoo. Let's do nothing to prevent any future attacks, that's his answer.
I am done with this thread now anyway.

Also PHEONIX, i have hardly lived a "typical" life. i have been a soldier, a private investigator, a bartender in NYC, an artist, musician, been on national TV more then once and now i'm an EMT trying to do something to help others. I have lived in TX, Korea, England, NYC and Phila.
I just simply know that it's common sense to have stepped up security measures after your country is attacked by 2 planes that flew into the world trade center and the fact that their are thousands of Islamic fundamentalist that hate us and still want to attack us on our on soil.
Keep crying about your "liberties" being taken away though, whatever.
i am done with this thread.


[edit on 30-7-2005 by GREGNOW]



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 03:12 PM
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"Frees speech zones" are a minor insgnifigance? I know you do not share my love for our bill of rights, but once again, I must.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; Textor the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Oh wiat that's right..."So what" It's just the constitution, it's just our bill of rights. Hey, you never did answer me. Have you EVER fully read the constitution, and Bill of Rights?

Ironic that you feel the principles espoused in the documents needed to found your nation, are the very ones that must be sacrificed to save it.


(as for the average life comment it was not meant as an insult.)
Take care man, no ill will .

Edited for clarification]

[edit on 30-7-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 03:14 PM
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You won't get them back until you get those out of office which will see your Nation fall.

When will that happen? Never, while idiots still think they are making Society safer for you.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 03:38 PM
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ok, i guess i am not done with this thread. ODIUM, why is one an "idiot" to think people are trying to make our country safer? They are trying to do what little they can to make are country a little safer. i think only "idiots" would demand that NO stepped up security measures are taken after planes fly into the WTC and bring both towers to the ground. So what you are saying is that after something like that a country should do nothing at all to try to prevent it from happening again?
First people were crying that they did not do enough to prevent the WTC from happening since they had intell. reports that plane attacks were indeed being planned on American soil, now people are crying that they are actually trying to make it harder to do with stepped up security that is hardly affecting anyones way of life or freedom. You people make no sense.
ODIUM, if your British police actually had stepped up securtiy and did more bag checks the bomb attacks that just happened to your country may not have happened at all.

Also PHEONIX, i don't even care what the constitution says as i am 38 years old and i am still able to do everything i do now that i have done my whole life, just like the majority of Americans. When the constitution was written over 200 years ago they did not have WMD's and dirty bombs that could be carried in a backpack and they did not have planes that fly in the air that can be used the same way a missle is used.
So if they have to change some very little things to help from things like that happening again on American soil, i'll choose that against it holding you up in the airport a little longer.
you know what? If you don't have a criminal record, you can still buy guns and rifles, so why don't you stock up and live your life ready to attack if they actually do take rights away that actually do affect your way of life in an unjust manner (which again is not happening). The only things that are currently being done are little security measures which need to be done, that's just common sense.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 03:54 PM
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The liberties that have been taken won't come back until the "War on Terror" is won. How do you win a war on terror, though? There will always be terror. Logicially, our liberties won't be coming back anytime soon.

I could deal with things like the Patriot act if I felt our government really was focused on making our nation safer. Unfortunately, it is doing the opposite. All the speeches about liberty in exchange for security are just words.

For those of you wondering what sorts of liberties are being taken away, the ACLU has a good site on Patriot Acts I & II here.

I understand the ACLU is not popular with some, but this particular section of their site is still a good resource for anyone concerned about the decrease of our liberties here in America.

-koji K.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by GREGNOW
Also PHEONIX, i don't even care what the constitution says

It is a sad day in America when any citizen says that. I'm sorry for you. As I said in the second post on this thread, if anybody is unhappy, make changes at the Ballot Box.

koji_K---That looks like an interesting link. Thanks. I see that I have some reading to do.

By the way, it might not be a bad idea for everyone to stop those insults before the Moderators start giving warnings.


[edit on 30-7-2005 by rawiea]



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by koji_K
The liberties that have been taken won't come back until the "War on Terror" is won. -koji K.



YOU ARE WRONG> They won't come back. The Patriot Act is NOW PERMANENT! Do you know what that means?

The Govt. Land Seizure Ruling has nothing to do with Terror.

The States are supposed to have the power... they will never get that back.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 04:09 PM
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Originally posted by GREGNOW
Also PHEONIX, i don't even care what the constitution says as i am 38 years old and i am still able to do everything i do now that i have done my whole life, just like the majority of Americans.


I am ashamed to call you a fellow countryman. The fact that you are 38 is sad, as you are old enough to know better. I have never met anyone who proudly declared that they were not familiar with the constitution. You should seriously read it.


When the constitution was written over 200 years ago they did not have WMD's and dirty bombs that could be carried in a backpack and they did not have planes that fly in the air that can be used the same way a missle is used.


No but they did have governments that thought they could do whatever they wanted, which is why it was written, so that it would never happen here. People like you are making that dream disappear


So if they have to change some very little things to help from things like that happening again on American soil, i'll choose that against it holding you up in the airport a little longer.


www.ushistory.org...


you know what? If you don't have a criminal record, you can still buy guns and rifles, so why don't you stock up and live your life ready to attack if they actually do take rights away that actually do affect your way of life in an unjust manner (which again is not happening). The only things that are currently being done are little security measures which need to be done, that's just common sense.


HAHAHA! To further illustrate my point on how thought and freedom trump laws. Whether or not I am a felon does not prohibit me from owning a firearm. There are illegal dealers, spouses and family that can purchase, and other means. Laws are for people like you, the ones scared of the consequences. We are free at every moment of every day to do what we want. No law can take away peoples freedom EVER.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 04:11 PM
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Also PHEONIX, i am not even sure what you are saying about your freedom of speech being taken away. But if your right to freedom of speech was denined fro some reason, then i am totally on your side in that that is plain wrong in America. So i am on your side there. but there is no way i can agree that stepped up security measures are affecting are way of life in any real way that matters, it is only helping to prevent future attacks.
Now, as far as your freedom of speech event, did it only happen to you or a group of you? If it only happened to you, there is nothing you can do about it, which sucks. But if it was a group of you then you all should have gotten together and written your congressman (if you are all regisitered to vote, otherwise he will not care).
The iilusion is that people in america think they have no power to change things. but they are wrong, the power is always with the masses of people if they would just get together on their cause that they want changed, register to vote for their state officials and then write those state officials on a mass level. Truth is to many are to lazy to do this and instead jusr complain about things like alot of people do on this site which is not going to change anything. This site is great for info. on on types of topics, but complaining on it will not do anything for change.
I myself had my freedom of speech denined by a cop hyped up on steroids about 10 years ago. i was in an accident where it looked like i hit the car in front of me but in truth she hit me by making an illegal move and i even had a witness in my car. The cop however would not even let me talk, he got her side of the story, saw how it looked at the intersection as it did look like my fault even though it was not, and then he took her report but none from me. when i tried to talk he said he'd arrest me if i opened my mouth again. He was very angry. There were 2 other cops there that just let him talk to me that way and they said nothing.
After they left i drove to his precint, asked for someone higher up and i told them i was going to forge a complaint with them, the city and then sue them if i could. He ask me to describe the cop and i did, he then sighed and said the cop was having alot of problems. i said i did not care and then he should be taken off the street. I demanded he call the cop in from the street to apologize to me are i was making a compalint and using the other 2 cops on the scene as witnesses. He then actually called the cop in and made him apologize to me even though the cop was pissed and did not want to and did not mean it. I got the satisfation of making him apologize to me against his will though.
My point is i was wronged, but instead of just complaining to others i went and threatened to do something about it and i actually got results.



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by Where2Hide2006

Originally posted by koji_K
The liberties that have been taken won't come back until the "War on Terror" is won. -koji K.



YOU ARE WRONG> They won't come back. The Patriot Act is NOW PERMANENT! Do you know what that means?

The Govt. Land Seizure Ruling has nothing to do with Terror.

The States are supposed to have the power... they will never get that back.


Well, you sort of quoted me out of context there. I don't think any law is necessarily permanent, but in reality I don't think the conditions described as needed to gain back those liberties that have been taken (ie, winning the war on terror) will ever be achieved. What may happen is, in perhaps a few decades time, popular opinion will change.. or at least become more vocal.. and we can repeal the Patriot Act. Of course, this Act alone isn't the only example of how our liberties have been taken.

As for the states, I think that's by and large a different issue. States can take our liberties, the Federal government can take our liberties, pretty much anyone stronger than you can take your liberties. The only way to prevent it is to keep a close eye on those who would and band up with your fellow citizens to prevent it.



In Germany, they first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Catholic. Then they came for me -- and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.
-Martin Niemoller


That's it right there. The only effective way to retain or take back our liberties is for everyone to look out for their neighbour.


-koji K.

[edit on 30-7-2005 by koji_K]



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 04:21 PM
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Phenoix, you really are quite a knuckle head. first off i did not say i was not familar with the constitution. you learn the basics in elementry school and jr. high. so no i am not "sad", it's just sad how you interpret thingsWhat i said is i do not need or care to read it to know that nothing has been changed in it that is affecting my way or the majority of american's way of life. Only "sad" people like you think that becuase they are checking bags more now. you really are sad.
Also my point about buying firearms went over your head as well. My point is that you complain about stupid things like more bag checking being a "liberty" taken away from you (you poor thing) and my point is that it is hardly a "libery" taken away that is affecting your way of life in any real way. My point is that if the Gov't. is "so out to get you", why do they still let people buy firearms? If you are not a felon you can walk into any store buy a gun and use it on whoever you want, including those authorities that YOU think are trying to take away your "liberties". If they were really trying to take away your "liberties" , don't you think they make it harder to buy firearms? That was my point. Man, i have to say it again, but your ignorance amazes me.
Also you say that "no law can take someones freedom away". Well if you actually do use the gun you buy on the authorities i garuntee you there are laws that are going take your freedom away if not your life in the electric chair. What are you talking about?
Also anyone who writes "HA, HA, HA, HA" to back up their points is kind of wacky. what are you the Joker now or something?

[edit on 30-7-2005 by GREGNOW]



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by GREGNOW
Now, as far as your freedom of speech event, did it only happen to you or a group of you? If it only happened to you, there is nothing you can do about it, which sucks. But if it was a group of you then you all should have gotten together and written your congressman (if you are all regisitered to vote, otherwise he will not care).


It has happened alone and with a group. This is just one example though. My point is things like this are going on all the time, and increasing in frequency. This sort of thing was going on before 9-11, and now they are just stepping up. Not to sound persecuted but I am politically active.

Go to a few marches over some big events and see what happens. I was in seattle for the WTO, LA for DNC, philly for RNC, NY RNC, london, 2000-1, may day's. I have seen 14 year old kids thrown in unmarked sedans that disaapear by what I assume to be DOJ agents. I have seen thousand of people forcibly detained in the middle of a city.

Would you like some more examples?
[corrected wrong date, getting senile in my old age]

[edit on 30-7-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]



posted on Jul, 30 2005 @ 04:28 PM
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I do have to admit though,,,everytime I fly I get the special treatment double check. It kinda strokes my ego that they would think I might have such power







 
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