Originally posted by ghostsoldier
For a conspiracy site, so many of you seem to beleive everything your government feeds you... Perhaps you should go find a George W. fansite to waste your time at...

Ain't that the truth....

No, it's just that some of us have "common sense" and know that not "everything" is a "conspiracy", unlike some of you...We also know that just because the "gov't." does something that makes common sense, does not mean that "everything" the "gov't." does is a conspiracy or lie...

Lately, I haven't seen The President and the neo-cons using much "common sense" and their track record on telling the truth isn't to hot either.

The freedom I feel like I have lost. The freedom to believe in the goodness of our elected officials. They don't care about ME, I'm just a statistic or a number on the voter rolls and IRS lists.

Another lost freedom. The ability to decide if I want to wear a seatbelt or not. The cops don't care if I live or if I die. They only want the $80 for the infraction. Same with motorcycle helmets. If they really wanted to save lives make people take another driving test when they get their social security.

The main freedom lost is the "innocent until proven guilty" clause has been changed to "guilty until proven innocent" This is just a feeling I have; but I feel it's valid.

[edit on 8-8-2005 by whaaa]

[edit on 8-8-2005 by whaaa]

Originally posted by whaaa
If they really wanted to save lives make people take another driving test when they get their social security.
[edit on 8-8-2005 by whaaa]

If they REALLY wanted to save lives, all driver's license's would be good for 5 or 6 years. You would need a new test every other time you renewed. That would mean a retest every 10-12 years, possibly keeping people more in touch with what they are doing. People would not pick up as many bad driving habits as I have since 1968.

Originally posted by GREGNOW
LAUNCHPAD, my point is no avergage american citizens are getting rounded up and NO we have not seen it "time and time again" like you say. If it has been happening time and time again, then show me where and to who???
Point is they are NOT just going to start "rounding up" average american citizens because they pass the new patriot act. what point is that going to serve except to start a public outcry and get a ton of lawyers to start fighting the gov't.?
It serves no purpose. People are already at an outcry over Guntanemo and that has nothing to do with "average american citizens". so can you not see the huge outcry that would be caused if for some reason the gov't. starts rounding up average americans. It does not even make sense (except to those who are paranoid).
Bottom line is that if you have nothing to hide or are not making threats or you are not doing anything illegal, you are NOT going to be "rounded up". Authorities do not even have enough resources to do that if they wanted to and again it serves no purpose at all anyway.

I was referring to "give an inch they take a mile" but people HAVE been rounded up in the past with no outcry from the general public because of how it came about. i.e. slowly -else- someone that they do not identify with -else- in secret. TIME TO READ YOUR HISTORY

Consider the American Indians

Consider the Japaniese AMERICANS during WWII

Also, you repeatedly miss the point (or misdirect folks from it) of people never being given notice of what happen to you AND no contact with lawyers- read the PA it is there- those RIGHTS are now gone. Plain as day but you continue to present (misrepresent) that SOMEONE will fight for you- how is that going to happen if no one knows you are MISSING????? or if you CANNOT talk to a lawyer????

Once again you miss the point- if given the LAWS they WILL use them and very shortly thereafter ABUSE them- HISTORY PROVES THIS- the laws in the PA are blatently against what the bill of rights says. black and white.

yes thank you for the email it was alittle over the top , thank you
for the input.

[edit on 10-8-2005 by Fiorina 161]

After reading a vast majority of posts, I've determined that there are alot of paranoid people who can not think for themselves, who spout complete and udder B.S., who are hypocrits in this thread.

No liberities have been lost.

People who think otherwise are complete idiots and should seek professional help.

Thanks ferret - you really are somewhere outside reality as your profile states. Good job i am sure you fit the description of brilliant scholar. -please note the sarcasm. Are all your posts this meaningless to the forum???

Please take the time to actually READ the material being discussed- i.e. bill of rights and the PA- even some of the SC's commentary on the ED.

If you are American it makes me outright ashamed for/of you.

Again- black and white. Do I really have to hold your hand to do a line-by-line comparison?

Do you understand words like: vigilance ? vehemence?

Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Thus the beneficiaries are spared the shame and danger that their acts would otherwise involve... But how is this legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them and gives it to the other persons to whom it doesn't belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish that law without delay ... No legal plunder; this is the principle of justice, peace, order, stability, harmony and logic.-Frederic Bastiat

and another- WHY- you won't be able to speak out.

One of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the great struggle for independence. - Charles A. Beard

what one of our very own leaders says about it:

The purpose of government is to rein in the rights of the people. - Bill Clinton

on the bill of rights:

The Bill of Rights is a born rebel. It reeks with sedition. In every clause it shakes its fist in the face of constituted authority... It is the one guarantee of human freedom to the American people. - Frank l. Cobb

one JUST for you:

A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves- Bertrand de Jouvenel

one from SC:

The privacy and dignity of our citizens [are] being whittled away by sometimes imperceptible steps. Taken individually, each step may be of little consequence. But when viewed as a whole, there begins to emerge a society quite unlike any we have seen -- a society in which government may intrude into the secret regions of a [person’s] life.- Justice William O. Douglas

from another president of the past:

Americans, indeed all freemen, remember that in the final choice, a soldier's pack is not so heavy a burden as a prisoner's chains.- Dwight D. Eisenhower

How's one for a famous "shrink" Just for you again:

Most people do not really want freedom, because freedom involves responsibility, and most people are frightened of responsibility.- Sigmund Freud

Why we don't deserve the Bill of rights anymore

19 terrorists in 6 weeks have been able to command 300 million North Americans to do away with the entirety of their civil liberties that took 700 years to advance from the Magna Carta onward. The terrorists have already won the political and ideological war with one terrorist act. It is mindboggling that we are that weak as a society. - Rocco Galati

I could go on for ages- the greatest thinkers of our time and our forefathers disagree with you. So go ahead play the ostrich, or become a sheeple.

my 2 cents:

thomas jefferson believed we are born free and that that freedom can only be limited by governments or society or both. this is my stance as well. those limits will change with regimes and times. in order to keep them, we must return to the original 10, unchanged rights included in the bill of rights. the ninth and tenth of which state this case.

Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

number nine says, basically, if it is not limited here, it is your right. no law, that i know of, repeals this amendment. thus, i am free, except for the limits in the Bill of Rights and it's amendments. as far as i'm concerned, the rest of the amendments are worthless, they only further enumerate what we mean today by the first 10, and if we know what we mean by the first 10, then why do we need it spelled-out? we don't.

fledgling,

i agree with your line of thought for the most part.

The real impact is that those were the first 2 amendments trambled by the government.

I interprete them as saying any laws not falling before this point must be made by the STATES and the FEDERAL job is done- beyond the first 10 amendments. Our forefathers were for a very small federal government. They wanted the power to be OF the people - how better to keep it there than to have the more local areas responsible for enacting laws and limit the FEDS to the most basic defense of the homeland?

If that is really the case i think before most of our forefathers were cool in the ground our country began to digress from the 9th and 10th amendments.

What you (fledgeling) bring up is just another EXCELLENT point for shooting down the PA. I would love to be able to do as you suggest and go back to the bare first ten- everything else out the window.

I guess he meant 'whites' are born free, since he had owned lots of slaves.
The constitution of the USA is a great ideal, but it was and still is just a concept, far from being achieved. We seem incapable of loving and respecting each other as equals, so it is no surprise we are in need of being controlled. The mob rules is another way to look at democracy. Never. That is when our liberties will return.

"When do we get our Liberties back?"

As soon as the majority stops sheepishly falling for the government lies and starts thinking for themselves. When will that be? God only knows.