When do we get our Liberties back?

Pheonix, First off you very ignorant with your comment on soldiers and loaded weapons. Clearly you never were in the military. There are hardly any soldiers with any type of loaded weapons on Ft. Sam Houston (at least when i was there, i am sure things changed after 911 though). The truth is that just because you are on a military base does not mean that the soldiers are carrying weapons at all. So you were not actually being "mean" as you put it, just ignorant in making a stupid comment.

Ft Sam is a medical training base and a base of mainly medical army soldiers. I was not medical, i was infantry in a honor gaurd unit that used m-14's loaded with BLANKS for burial services (and there were only about 30 of us infantry on the whole base. None of us even carried a loaded weapon the whole year and a half i was there). The only soldiers carrying loaded weapons were MP's and they were few with NO check points at the base at all, just a station like any normal police station.
ANYONE could drive into that base and do ANYTHING they wanted to. There were also a ton of civilins working on the base, agin with no check points to enter or leave.
Even if we did have loaded weapons, what would that do to stop a truck of explosives if there are no check points to enter or leave? Your comment is pretty ignorant there.


[edit on 30-7-2005 by GREGNOW]

Originally posted by GREGNOW
No, you are not reading what i write.
First off I don't need to know your way of life. If the finacial district of NYC is hit , it will affect all american's way of life. Are you really that clueless?

Of course it would affect e, but to what degree you surely can not know. Many people do expect, and do prepare for such an event as martial law.

Next, you must feel that your liberities can be taken away because you keep siting the consituiton and then even say you can't wait for them to pass more laws. so you are clearly showing that you feel your liberities are threatened.

That is completely illogical. As in my cellphone example I found away around increased surveillance. I also recently did this with my mortgage. Simply because new laws are there I do not feel threatened. One thing you obviously do not understand about laws-There is ALWAYS a loophole. Sheeple like you who desire more laws and surveillance are the only ones who will suffer. People like me use their brains and find the loopholes.

If they declare martial law or make a law that actually makes it so you can not do something that you used to do in your life, then feel free to start crying. But, right now that has not even happened. Again your brilliant solution would be to do nothing.

SO basically your solution to government incursion into our lives is to do nothing until martial law hits. Sit back and wait until the troops are in the street, wait for it to happen, right? Is that not the same strategy that you are bashing me on about the "terrorist-threat" ?

I will not adress the rest of your post as it was just a regurgitation of your point: big bad scary world, need government to help me, etc, etc

Originally posted by GREGNOW
Pheonix, First off you very ignorant with your comment on soldiers and loaded weapons. Clearly you never were in the military.
[edit on 30-7-2005 by GREGNOW]

I have never been to a military base that did not have a checkpoint and at least two guards at all entrances with fully automatic rifles in plain view, and I have been to many. Most of them admittedly Airforce, in California, and involved with the old SR-71, so perhaps that was the reason for the hyped security, who knows.

Of course all soldiers are not walking around with rifles, but they are there, and so are the soldiers. My point is you were still concerned about your security even on a military base. Which is one of the safest places one can be, even in war.

[edit on 30-7-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]

My freedoms are my own and no man can take them away from me. I am with you all the way phoenix. No searching is going to stop a bomb from going off. It is more an example of hearding the sheep in. It amazes me that some people can argue against freedom. Freedom is what we founded this country on, yet some of you are satisfied being slaves. Not me though, and for my SONS sake I will not rest until things are changed. Our government needs reform REGARDLESS of who stands in the way. It is my right to be free and if you are stopping me from being free then you are in my way and I will walk over you to get my freedom back. This all hopefully can be resolved without a civil war or revolution, but if it cannot know that I am willing to fight for my freedoms against anyone. It would be the only fight since the Revolutionary war that was a just fight. The question is not when do we get given them back, it is when do we take them back. We the people are not each others enemies, we are allies, the government is the enemy and WE MUST come together as one to fight them. God speed and bless the world.

I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis.
The great point is to bring them the real facts.
-- Abraham Lincoln

Originally posted by deaf fences hit

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
When do we get our liberties back?
When we take them back.
What is the fertilizer of liberty?

revolution..?

Yup...

I'd love to say by using the Constitution - but I am afraid that it has become little more than a foot note in our history.

No actually you don't want to address the rest of my post because i pointed out how ignorant you are on your comment you made about soldiers with loaded weapons and feeling safe, when you actually thought you were making a smart comment to me and insulting me. Instead you just showed your ignorance.
Second, i am hardly a "sheeple". I am just not a cry baby like you and i have the common sense to know that certain laws need to be carried out to help to prevent terrorism on American soil. On top of that the current laws are VERY samll and only make it a LITTLE safer. YOUR brilliant solution though is to have no new terror laws. no matter how small they are and the fact that they hardly are affecting you in any real ways that matter. What you suggest instead is that the authorites do nothing to send a message to terrorist's, because then you feel that they are just going to keep making stronger laws until we are under martial law.
The fact is that may or may never happen, but the fact is we NEED new protection measures as we are at more danger now on American homeland soil then ever before.
so anyone with common sense knows that we need stepped up measures to try whatever we can to prevent future attacks. That's just common sense. If new and bigger laws are made that actually do affect peoples freedom in a REAL way, then that is the time to cross that bridge and cry about it.
However, people like you want to cry now and have NO new laws to help prevent future attacks. Yea, that makes sense. It's not about be a "sheeple" it's about common sense.
No laws have been made that are affecting the average American citizens in any real way.
The fact is, if you do not have a criminal record you can go into a store and buy a gun or rifle. Yet, you and others are crying because your bags MIGHT (but probably never will) be search in a SMALL effort to send a message to terrorist that they may find it hard to walk onto mass transit with a bomb in a bag.
I rode the subway for another 3 years after 911 and they were never searching bags on anyone. On top of that you could see bags left under subway seats and on platforms and no one even bother with them.
I am glad they are finally making an effort to check things like that out. It's common sense in the new and dangerous times we live in.

Phonix, are you not reading what i wrote. The base was not safe at all. i was there for 1 1/2 years so i should know. Again you make an ignorant comment about military bases being the safest place to be? Even where i grew up in PA, we used to drive onto the Willow Grove air force base to watch the planes with no hassles. Man, you are ignorant.
Also i never said i was "concerned". It was 1985-86. What i said is i thought it odd that there were never any check points and that anyone could drive onto that base and do whatever they wanted. and again, the fact is that withough check points, it does not matter who has loaded weapons as a truck with explosives could drive onto the base and drive into a building and there is nothing you could do about it unless soldiers are actually on gaurd with loaded weapons , which none were, not even the MP's.
Also do you not remember the Marine barracks bombing in Beruit which did have soildiers on gaurd with loaded weapons? Again, get a clue.

[edit on 30-7-2005 by GREGNOW]

You know what I love about this site. I am constantly reminded of the South park episode with michael jackson. It makes me chuckle inside, thank you."That's ignorant" is thrown around soo much here, usually by those who can not prove their point....Anyways

You keep saying how unsafe these military bases are, please tell me how many "terrorist" attacks have been commited at US military instillations? (inside the US)

I will say it again-If you are the type of person who fears for his safety at a base, then you must be a scared person in general. If not, tell me then, under what circumstances do you not question your safety?

[edited for clarification]

[edit on 30-7-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]

Thomas Crown and dancer, what "liberties" do we "need to take back"? Fill me in. What "liberities" have any of you actually had taken away that have affected you freedom or way of life in America? Your talking about LITTLE things like stepped up bag searches on mass transit (and only in certain locations) that none of you will probably even go through and if you do, so what? Are we suppossed to do nothing at all and just send the message to terrorist's that they can walk onto the subway with bags full of bombs becuase no authorities are ever go to make an effort to search suspisious looking people or bags. They are not out there searching every citizen and if they were, so what?
Do you really feel this is a "liberty" that is affecting the way you live. it's a common sense measure to help try and prevent more attacks.

Gottr, how am i or you a "slave" now. Because they want to search bags more to prevent a bomb from possibly going off. Where are some of you people educated on common sense? Yes, it could stop a bomb from going off. Not all bombers are suicide bombers. The bomb that went off in the world trade center in 1993 was not a suicide bomb attack. If they had steeped up searches and security like they do now, guess what? That bomb would not have gone off. And if it was your family members or your "sons" Gottr, that may have been working in that section of the trade center, they would not be killed or injuried.
What amazes me is that you and others don't have the common sense to know these LITTLE things are nessasary and not something that is being impose to take away our "liberities".
You people crack me up. You cry if nothing is done and you cry if even little things like stepped up bag searches are done.
Yea, we better start getting guns and fighting the authorites now because they are searching more bags. Where do you people get your common sense? We live in a time were nutjobs want to bomb us on our own soil, anywhere they choose and you don't even want the authorities to check bags now because you think it is actually somehow affecting your "liberities" and way of life.

Pheonix, you really are ignorant, that's why i use the term. i am not saying all military bases are unsafe, i said Ft. Sam was and there is no point i can not prove there as you put it, because it IS the TRUTH, i was there. I also said it was in 1985-86 and i said now i am sure things have changed. So yes, you keep making ignorant remarks. I was there. I also used to drive on to the airbase at Willow Grove, pa when i was in high school. There is no point i have to prove, that's just the way it is.
The fact is that you can not prove your point that any new laws are affecting our "liberities" in any way that really changes our way of life or freedom.
If anything you are a "sheeple" to the terrorist's. Your solution is to do nothing and keep things the way they have always been in America when there are nutjobs out there that want to bomb us on our own soil.
And again, you are so ignorant when it comes to military bases. i was in the army, you were not. of course things are different on bases after 911, i am talking about before 911.
I am also talking about our sea ports and food supplies, both which have really no security if a terrorist wants to do something to them.
and to show your ignorance again, you make the comment for me to show you how many terrorist attacks have happened on military bases. If you are talking about AFTER 911, there have been none, but there have been none anywhwere in America, so again just an ignorant statement on your part. If you are talking about before 911, then let's see, does Pearl Harbor mean anything to you.
Get a clue.

[edit on 30-7-2005 by GREGNOW]

Originally posted by GREGNOW

You people crack me up. You cry if nothing is done and you cry if even little things like stepped up bag searches are done.

Once again amentia rears it's ugly head. Not everyone believes that the trade center was done by "al-queda". IMHO-At the best we knew about it, and at the worst the USA is responsible for it. Some also believe the recent pattern of terrorism to be orchestrated. Not everyone is like you. You are the one crying about the big bad world, and how you need to be protected from it like a frightened little girl. Believe it or not, there are still real libertarians out there who do not need (nor ask)to be protected by anyone.

Your very line of thought is traitorous to our founding fathers, and the ideals this country is supposed to stand for. Take some time out from calling others ignorant and refresh yourself with some history, it might do you some good. (Those links I provided earlier to the constitution, and bill of rights are a good start)
[edited typo]

[edit on 30-7-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]

Originally posted by GREGNOW
Pheonix, First off you very ignorant with your comment on soldiers and loaded weapons........So you were not actually being "mean" as you put it, just ignorant in making a stupid comment.

GREGNOW, being that you have over 200 posts within ATS, indicating that you have been on this board long enough to know that the uses of ignorant or stupid is not necessary to get your point across, correct? Everyone, including you, need to like chill on such uses. Really is not need to make a point or to correct someone.



As for the subject: When do we get our Liberties back?
I am still waiting for someone to specify which liberties are or have been taken away. Anyone? Be specific...





seekerof

[edit on 30-7-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by GREGNOW
Pheonix, you really are ignorant, that's why i use the term. i am not saying all military bases are unsafe, i said Ft. Sam was
[edit on 30-7-2005 by GREGNOW]

How many attacks have there been on Ft. Sam then?

Also i was not "scared" and am not "scared" now. What i would be "scared" about is if the authorities were not taking any action waht so ever to step up security in America. People like you if in a postion to run this country would "scare" me as you have no solution other then to do nothing and send no message to terrorist's.
Instead you want to cry about "liberties" that are not even affecting you in any real way as though it's all a bif conspircy and the terrorist threat does not exist or something.
If i was "scared" i would not have joined the army in the first place. I also would not have been a sniper in Korea.
You complain about "liberites" being taken away from you that are not even affecting your freedom at all or your way of life, it sounds like you are scared of thingsd that do not even exist. Yet, there is a REAL threat there that does exist and you think nothing should be done about it.

Let's see. No mention of attacks in its history .

www.samhouston.army.mil...

Sounds like a pretty safe place to me.

Originally posted by GREGNOW
Also i was not "scared" and am not "scared" now.

I am done. You obviously have your opinion even when faced with evidence to the contrary. I have given you an example of how it did affect my life, and how I avoided it , yet you still want to argue and say I am "crying". You claim land was not being seized by the government, I give you proof to the contrary, and you still want to argue.

Your "Safety" was a concern on a military base on US soil 20 years ago. You keep going on about the "real" terrorist threat. How you and your children need to be protected.But you are not scared? Sure.

Not to be rude either, but Snipers are not known as the most courageous of soldiers.

Good luck with your safety

Seekerof, HE insulted ME of being a soldier who was scared on a base which is not true and not what i said. He then used a ignorant example of armed soldiers on bases and he does not even know what he is talking about. He then even adds that he is not trying to be "mean" as though he even made a valid point. He made no valid point as his comment was made in pure ignorance. He insults me with a ignorant comment and i insulted him right back.
So Seekerof, don't tell me what i should and should not know about using the word ignorant. Read the whole thread, otherwise you to are simply making an ignorant comment yourself.
As far as his posts now about there being any terrorist attacks on military bases, again he is just trying to be smart but is just making ignorant remarks as it has nothing to do with point i was making about ft. sam.
The fact is since 911, i stated that i am sure things have changed there, so what is his point? On top of that what is the point about nay terrorist attacks happening on military bases, there have not been any attacks at all anywhere in America on militaryt or non-military bases since 911. I also brought up the point that there have been a lot of arrests though becuase of new security and new laws and this has more then likely helped to stopp possible future attacks.
If there was no stepped up security then those people would not have been arrested.
Now, he keeps bringing up "what attacks have happened on military bases". There is no point to that question as of course things are different on military bases now. But if Ft. Sam was left the way it was, anyone could do anything they want there, plain and simple. What is now saying i am lying about the way it was there or the way it was at Willow Grove air base?
What's his point other then he is now off the fact that there are no new laws that are in any way affecting his way of life or freedom and he can not prove that there is, because there are none. they are common sense, stepped up security measures.

[edit on 30-7-2005 by GREGNOW]

Pheonix, again your last post just shows your ignorance by your own comments. As far as being a sniper , that's your opinion and you are clueless on it. Being a sniper , you are put behind enemy lines on your own with no back up except a spotter. It is not safe at all, so get a clue. I doubt you'd have the guts to do it, but i am sure you'll have an ignorant comment on that to. What do you even base your stupid comment on snipers on? You really are clueless with your remarks, so keep showing it. The fact is that being a sniper has more to do with recon behind enemy lines then it does on shooting someone. And even if you are sent to take someone out, you are still on your own behind enemy lines.
As far as land being seized, you only showed laws that were made and a "vacant" land being bought by the boston state. No where is the gov't seizing land from people in mass amounts.
I don't even have kids, so you clearly are not reading what i write. you are just bent on making your ignorant comments and insults because you can not provide proof that any laws are taking away any "liberities" that affect anyone way of life or freedom that really matters.
I am so sorry that a new law made you have to get 2 forms of id to get your new cell phone. Perhaps we should get rid of the FEW new laws out there so not to so incovience you. Please already, stop crying about nothing.
People like you WANT more laws that actually affect our freedom, becuase then it would actually give you a justified reason in complaining on how your "liberities" are being taken away and destroying your way of life. Please , already.


[edit on 30-7-2005 by GREGNOW]

Also you keep saying things like "good luck with your safety". That's not even what i am talking about. First off, bag searches have only been stepped up in certain areas and cities like NYC, so it is hardly affecting anyone in the whole of America. It is common sense to step up searches in NYC in the subways and if you lived there you would feel that way and you would feel a little safer. I don't know if you really live in Antartica, which i doubt, but if you do and even if you don't, if you lived in NYC you would feel better knowing that the authorities are at least doing something in the subways to make it safer. Man, you are clueless. Have you ever had to commute on a regular basis on the NYC subway?
also i just saw your link to Ft Sam houston and there being no attacks and then you say "sounds safe to me". What is your point other then you are being a real knucle head with no point. I told you there was NO security on that base in 85-86 and probably long after that. After 911 i stated that i am sure things changed there. So what, if there were no attacks, it was still an unsafe base, so what is your point. There were really no attacks in America anywhere, military or not until 911. So what? Ft. Sam still had no security. What is your point other then you are trying to insult me with ignorant statements again?
My point is that you are crying about things like bag searches being stepped up and i was pointing out how that's just a little thing and that there should probably be more security measures and i used Ft. Sam as an example. So what you are saying is that just because before 911 since there were no attacks on Ft. Sam (or anywhere else) that it must have been safe? It was'nt safe. Just like no one thought about the trade center being brought down, the same thing could have happoened at Ft. Sam or any other number of places. I can not get over your ignorant remarks that have no points.


[edit on 30-7-2005 by GREGNOW]