When do we get our Liberties back?

Greg-
Why did they do it? I will never know. Since you must know, we had left a protest early because we could tell what the cops were trying to do to the crowd. We were walking along a side street some five blocks from the staples center. A car sped up, a man walked up from behind as if from no where. Said "Hey John" to the kid, who's name was not john. Put his arm around him. The back door of the car opened up. I could see what was happening, I tried to stop the guy but he was pretty big and literally flung me away as if I was a fly. A few of us tried bashing in the cars windows before it sped away. My wife tried getting a photo, the man threw the kid in the car, pushed her to the ground, got in the car and sped off. That is how we ended up with a photo.

I did run to the police officer who saw it (you must realize police were everywhere), and asked "what the hell was that ?" He told me to move along, at which point I asked for his badge number, and asked him if he could at least tell me that it was some sort of law enforcement operation. I told the cop I wanted to know if he was "safe", otherwise I threatened to immediately report a kidnapping naming him as a witness.

He spoke into his microphone. I said I was the kids brother and I have a right to know. He said "Yes now move on"

It is rumored that "they" had a plan to nab random protestors to see if they had any information about plans for a "violent" demonstration.

After the incident the group split up, harder to follow right? My wife and I were followed for half an hour as we zig-zagged through downtown LA. My wife had a change of clothes (we are familiar with their tactics) but both my shirts got doused earlier with pepper spray while saving someone from an onslaught of teargas that had left him violently convulsing. I bought a shirt off of a homeless man in an alley for 20 bucks, and made our way from downtown to korea town where we had parked.

We never saw the kid again. One of the people who was there with us was sent to jail three years later on a trumped up charge. Not to sound paranoid but I have already said too much. I can not say why I thought it was the DOJ, lets just say I have a very good reason to believe it was

The LAPD have already been proven to have acted improperly, and thats just what is known.
projects.is.asu.edu...

This started before 9-11, and london. That's just the event you guys keep shouting about.

[edited for multiple reasons]
[edit on 30-7-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]

[edit on 30-7-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]

Actually PHEONIX, i disagree with you on your point on the new lwas affecting our liberties in any way that matters BUT i like you as you are at least a pro active person in trying to make change in country on some things that may actually matter. There are not enough people like you unfortunately, if there were people could actuallt change certain things instead of just complaining about them on websites.
Still though, i do not feel the stepped up security measures are affecting anyones freedom in any way that matters. They are simply needed in the times we live in and again i feel there should be more action taken especially on our water ports with containers, and our food and water supplies.
honestly, not enough is being done when it comes to security at all. as far as NYC or any large city it is impossible to have the type of security needed but at least they are doing what they can instead of nothing at all and that is my main point in this whole thread.

As far as that kid being abducted, it sounds more like sex offenders or drug dealers that knew him. Why would authorites yell "hey John" to him? Authorities would not do it that way and would not put there arm around him and all that. I hope the kid is alright.

[edit on 30-7-2005 by GREGNOW]

I do all those things GREGNOW. I do enjoy what freedoms I have, but it does not make it right that I am losing freedom. Fact is I dont live in a country where people have no freedom, fact is I was born into these great united states, fact is after we take back our country, we should liberate every other country that is not free. Then there would be no reason for any human being to say "well lucky you". I am not taking the easy lazy way out, I am taking the only way. I do this not only for me but for you and every other person on this planet. I do this to bring back honest and morals to this country and most important I do this for my son's future.

GREGNOW I am not your enemy, but if a war were to break out for our civil rights would you choose to fight me for your beliefs?

Um....that has what has been going on for years, no search. Hasnt been a reason to, there still isnt, and there never will be. Regardless of what you say, it imposes on my freedom and that is unconstitutional.

And the consitution is also for protecting American peoples rights correct? I have the right to live my life and pursue happiness, and the bombers are infringing on my right or anyone right to live... so isn't searching protecting that right? If you think there's no reason to search after all that has happened, you need a rude awakening.

Gregg-Thnx for the compliment, it means alot especially when everything is changing for the worse. Thnx for apologizing about the ignorant thing, that was cool too. Sorry bout the sniper BS.

I still know you are wrong though Gregg, I have given you examples, and I could give you more. Your lucky my laundry is done

Take care!

failure, delete?

[edit on 30-7-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]

[edit on 30-7-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]

And the consitution is also for protecting American peoples rights correct? I have the right to live my life and pursue happiness, and the bombers are infringing on my right or anyone right to live... so isn't searching protecting that right? If you think there's no reason to search after all that has happened, you need a rude awakening.

There is no reason to search, this is not the only time terror has attacked the US, there were bombings before 911, yet no changes then? These changes arent even occuring because of 911 they are occuring because of london bombings? Plenty of places have been bombed before london, yet no change then why? These are the types of questions any person with any intelligence should be asking. You seem content in accepting things the way they are. That is fine for you, I will not accept infringements on my freedom, especially when there rhyme or reason for these events to happen.

Originally posted by GREGNOW
ok, i guess i am not done with this thread. ODIUM, why is one an "idiot" to think people are trying to make our country safer? They are trying to do what little they can to make are country a little safer. i think only "idiots" would demand that NO stepped up security measures are taken after planes fly into the WTC and bring both towers to the ground. So what you are saying is that after something like that a country should do nothing at all to try to prevent it from happening again?

First people were crying that they did not do enough to prevent the WTC from happening since they had intell. reports that plane attacks were indeed being planned on American soil, now people are crying that they are actually trying to make it harder to do with stepped up security that is hardly affecting anyones way of life or freedom. You people make no sense.
ODIUM, if your British police actually had stepped up securtiy and did more bag checks the bomb attacks that just happened to your country may not have happened at all.

No, Greg. They knew it was going to happen, they were able to stop them under laws that existed then and didn't.

They do not need the new laws. If they wanted to stop it, they would have. If Bush didn't stop the F.B.I. following up leads, they would have. The increased measures on planes, were also something that should have been done since the 1970's, when it was known box-cutters, could have got through security.

As for the U.K. it is now becoming clear that those bombings happened because of our involvement with Iraq, which like it or not was an illegal war. Random bag searchs wouldn't have changed the outcome of that - the Police have already said so on the BBC and Question Time now. 10million people, per-day.

Random searchs = profiling = helping the terrorists.
Breaking the Geneva Convention = helping the terrorists.
Alienating Muslims = Helping the terrorists.

Need I go on?

GOTTR, my point is that there is no war against our civil rights anf there are no freedoms being taken away from Americans that are affecting their way of life in a way that matters. You are to amped up like we are at war in our own country or something which will do nothing but get you in jail.
Dude, we were attacked by terrorist's, so plain and simply we need to make certain laws that may help prevent further attacks. It HAS to be done, even if it is some big part of some conspircy by the gov't. against it's own people, which you seems to think it is, it still HAS to be done. If it indeed turns out to be part of some conspircy to take away freedoms from us that really matter and have nothing to do with trying to protect us, then is the time to take action as the masses of american's would be against it.
Right now though that is not happening. There have only been simple laws made that MUST be made to help prevent further attacks. You can not just have attacks happen on American soil and then do nothing about it or it is bound to happen again no matter what as there is then no deterents in place to make it harder for terrorist's to attack.
We are at war and i am not talking about Iraq. We are in a war that involves an enemy that is not part of a given countries military. We are at war with enimies that could live right in your neighborhood.
If you are doing nothing wrong, illegal and have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to worry about. The Gov't. is not going to start making massive attacks or searches in americans homes just because they feel like. To many people would then rise up against the Gov't. and if that did start to happen then i would be right there with you fighting for my rights.
The fact is though that it is not happening, so everyone needs to chill and enjoy their lives and stop being so paranoid.
What the Bush admistration did by going into Iraq and starting that war was wrong and they are a bunch of crooks and lyers, BUT that has nothing to do with the fact that we need stepped up security in America to prevent further attacks or at least try to prevent further attacks. Sooner or later we are going to be attacked here again right on our own soil. We need to do what we can to try our best to prevent that or minamize the damage caused by a futher attack.
If anything the Bush admistration should being doing more with homeland security becuase believe it or not we are not all that secure at all. and even if they make more laws that may impede on my freedom, as long as those laws are not changing my way of life in a way that is unjust but those new laws make it harder for terrorist's to cause more loss of life or God forbid a low yeild nuke from going off or a dirty bomb from taking out half a city, then i will gladly live with those laws. Becuase without those laws of stepped up security i may end up dead anyway.
Do you know that the ebola virus the size of a pinhead if properly released can take out an entire city the size of boston? Luckly, it is hard to keep bio weapons contained for transport or in general.

ODIUM, i actually agree with everything you just posted. Still the point is that we need stepped up security or it can easily happen again. You are kind of complaining that they did nothing to stopp the attacks when they may have been able to and now you are also complaining that they should now do nothing to stop furter attacks? This is waht does not make sense to me, you and others damn them if they do and damn them if they don't.
Also GOTTR, you have to realize that the FBI, CIA, and others get itell. everyday about possiblt terror plans that we never hear about. The thing is then they have to figure out which intell. reports may be true and whiuch are bogus. It's a very hard job. It was part of the problem with 911. They had reports that attacks may be carried out with planes in some type of manner but then they had tons of other intell. that said differeent types of attacks could be carried out.
So the point is they are not going to keep telling the general public about all the different possible threats and intell. that comes in. That would just cause panic. If you see certain areas all of a sudden becoming more heavy with security, then there is probably certain intell. they have that they are not telling us about because they are not sure about it, but need to take preventive action in some way.
Look at New Years Eve the year that the mayor closed down Seatlle I think it was. There was intell. that something might happen there. They then beefed up security in Vegas this year or the last on New years eve becuase of intell. that something might happen there.

No.

They don't need new laws to stop them.
They could have stopped them if they wanted to. Everything was in place to arrest those people and the President, et al got in the way of the investigation.

The new laws, will do nothing but Alienate the Muslim Population of America and the World and help push them to the radical fringe of Society. Iraq, Guantanamo, Israel, etc.

The London attacks have now shown us that thanks to Iraq there are more Muslims joining these ranks not less. So clearly the present way of doing things, isn't working - the "War on Terror" just like the "War on Drugs" won't work.

ODIUMJ, you are missing my point. I agree with you and i think the war in Iraq was a huge mistake and something our gov't never should have done. but that is not the war on terror. The war on terror started after WE were attacked on 911 and then we went to Afganistan and took out who we need to. We then should have stepped up security here in america but instead that knucle head bush and his cronies went to Iraq. Either way we still need stepped up security in USA and ENGLAND to prevent further attacks.

ok, i am sick tonight and now i am going to watch Law and Order SVU reruns the rest of the night. So i will visit tomorrow. no hard feelings, we are all still living in America and if our Gov't. actually does start making laws that actually do infringe on our freedoms in unjust ways, then like American's always do, we will come together and fight the enemy, even if it ends up being our own gov't.
But for now relax and enjoy your freedoms as the gov't is not doing anything right now to really affect anyones life in a way that really matters or in a way that is not to help preserve our way of life from terrorist attacks.

[edit on 30-7-2005 by GREGNOW]

But the fact is, these attacks were done on the U.K. because of our involvement with Iraq. If that never happened, we were not a major target. Especially not for home grown bombers like some of them were.

Also, we never have needed such laws. The fact is, the ones we have now do not work. 700arrest for terrorism, 3convictions. The problem is the Police force and their inability to do the job. Instead of investigating things, they use constant racial profiling.

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
boogyman, name (1) Liberty that you PERSONALLY have lost since 9/11.

Name just (1) that you had before 9/11 and is now lost.

I can't think of any, unless your name is Akmed and your a visiting student from Pakistan. Than your gonna be jacked up at the airport with good reason. Other than that, it seems like your railing against our government for no good reason.

Maximu§

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Originally posted by boogyman
When does the War on terror (or the struggle against extremism for that matter) end?

I would say that when our own extremists are eliminated also. I.E. the right wing religious nut jobs in this country (USA).

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
When do we get our liberties back?
When we take them back.
What is the fertilizer of liberty?

I've never agreed with you more TC....good job.

Originally posted by Where2Hide2006
You should know that many of the provisions of Patriot Act II have been made PERMANANT by the last vote after the London Bombings. Also The new Supreme Court Ruling that the Federal Government can SEIZE YOUR LAND and turn it over to a corporation for profit. These Rights are NOT coming back while a Republican or a Democrat is in office. The Democratic Party is NOT the Libertarian Party...Howard Dean only wants you to think that.

The truth is if you vote Republican or Democrat, EITHER way YOU LOSE

This just happened to a friend of mine's mother. Eminant domain is here to stay yippie. I'm moving to Canada or Australia. I love the USA but this government has got to go.

Originally posted by GREGNOW
A lot of you people crack me up. What a bunch of whiners and crybabies.



[edit on 30-7-2005 by GREGNOW]

Greg...I'm not going to quote your whole post because it is a bit long. I see what you are saying, but I myself would rather be an actual free man than to lose my right to carry a bag full of who knows what around. I would rather die in a terrorist attack than to give the terrorists what they want....I.E....terror. "Give me Liberty or give me DEATH!!!!!!!!!!!"

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin


Property owners of America, take heed – in a landmark split decision issued June 23, the Supreme Court ruled that the government has the power to transfer ownership of private property from one citizen to another, starting with the homes of Susette Kelo, Bill Von Winkle, and other citizens of New London, Connecticut

These are the people I'm talking about. I know a son of one of these people who have had their land (and rights to land ownership) DESTROYED.


[edit on 31-7-2005 by MacMerdin]

[edit on 31-7-2005 by MacMerdin]

Originally posted by GREGNOW

the fact is we need a lot more security in a lot of places all around America and instead they are spending money on first tearing apart Iraq and now rebuilding it. There was an article in Time magazine about a mayor and police cheif that served in Iraq from their reserve units. They saw billions of dollars being spent over there but the soldier/mayer of his town could not even get the gov't. to give him 750,000 for a needed new water system for his town. It's pathetic and these are the real things people should be crying about that the Bush admistration is not doing.

I kind of got the wrong impression of you at first. I do understand where you are coming from now. But, I still believe that freedoms are being taken under our noses while we sit back and just take it. I guess we'll have to just disagree on that part.

Edit to include.....I am the first person to say...."Thank you for your service in the military". I tried to serve but due to a middle ear problem, they wouldn't take me......funny thing is now, they probably would...but I'm not as willing to enter the military these days

[edit on 31-7-2005 by MacMerdin]