criss angel discussion...

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Shhh...don't tell anyone...it means the wires aren't there.

Even though the exact same trick is described like that by magicians. SSSsshhhh, it's a secret. Of course you don't believe the salesperson is in on it though. If you doubt me so much, why don't you go buy the actual trick, it's only $39. It's the only way you will believe me.

Funny you should mention that, for Uri Geller and Criss Angel are coming out with a reality show this fall

Why am I not surprised by that, will Michael Jackson be appearing with his friend, Uri?.

The key word in this equation of deception or partial deception is...

MONEY

Because they are not people of principle; they are simply out to make a buck

....
You confuse a Gift of Telekinesis with CHARACTER.

One can have one without the other.

So let me get this straight just for the record. CA Has TK but he is not a man of character and will lie in order to make more money? In fact he will practice deception, yet you believe him 100% when he says he doesn't do editing tricks or paid audiences.

How do you tell when he is telling the truth and deceiving people?
Just curious. Your sense of lie detecting must be great that you can do it over a TV.

The sad part is when you do find out how he did it, it is a total let down for it becomes totally obvious then. 90% of a magic trick is how you present it.

Also there is no need to pay anyone off or set up stooges in the audience for it is much easier to just trick our senses. Go to a magic store and see a few simple magic tricks that you find really neat then have them show you how it is done and you will say to yourself “that’s it!”


Check out the Chris Angle You Tubes and you will see what I mean

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Also there is no need to pay anyone off or set up stooges in the audience for it is much easier to just trick our senses.

I get your point, but sometimes having a "plant" in the audience is necessary. In the floating Light bulb, the salesperson picked the lamp and I did not notice any sleight of hand palming and replacing the bulb, so he was part of it.

[edit on 13-8-2007 by pavil]

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Shhh...don't tell anyone...it means the wires aren't there.

Originally posted by pavil
Even though the exact same trick is described like that by magicians. SSSsshhhh, it's a secret. Of course you don't believe the salesperson is in on it though. If you doubt me so much, why don't you go buy the actual trick, it's only $39. It's the only way you will believe me.

Use common sense man.

If one could go out and spend only $39 on a magic trick that makes a light bulb convincingly float in the air and light up, don't you think that more people would be doing it off of a specially designed magician's stage?

Of course they would.

Yes, you are right in that I don't believe you.

Originally posted by pavil
So let me get this straight just for the record. CA Has TK but he is not a man of character and will lie in order to make more money? In fact he will practice deception, yet you believe him 100% when he says he doesn't do editing tricks or paid audiences.

Take a good look at all the scrutiny and abuse directed at the people in this and the recent Qigong thread who have claimed to have experience with miracles of Chi, telekinesis, and Qigong. They are hacked and abused constantly.

So why would anyone (in their right mind) who is not that morally principled in the first place be motivated to not artfully dodge all attempts for people to pin him down in saying that he has a Gift of Chi-Telekinesis?

Moreover, Criss Angel has nothing to lose by telling people that he doesn't use any camera or editing tricks - especially if that is the truth. This makes him stand out as a magician which translates into CHI-CHING (pun intended) - MO' MONEY

Originally posted by pavil
How do you tell when he is telling the truth and deceiving people?
Just curious. Your sense of lie detecting must be great that you can do it over a TV.

It is really amazing what one can ascertain through experience, logical extrapolation, and psychological analysis.

After you learn and/or gain the above, you should try them sometime.



[edit on 13-8-2007 by Paul_Richard]

Originally posted by Paul_Richard

It is really amazing what one can ascertain through experience, logical extrapolation, and psychological analysis.

After you learn and/or gain the above, you should try them sometime.

I only hope to master it as well as you one day. I will try.
I have a feeling that will be the funniest statement I will hear on here all week. Thanks.

Here is quie a long video with many of CA's levitations along with some interviews.

I bring to your attention, about two thirds into the video, his brother talks of being a child & walking in to find his mother levitating on a broom. He then says "It was his first illusion he saw CA do". He didn't say this was the first time I saw Criss' powers!
So the broom was an illusion. I think this should bring you closer to the realization the levitations are illusions.

Google Video Link

As for him walking up walls. I think this is done by him walking on a mock up of a building, that he walks on normally and they rotate the film (sideways) after. It's how it's done in movies, and I'm sure it is much the same concepts being used in MF.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
It is really amazing what one can ascertain through experience, logical extrapolation, and psychological analysis.

After you learn and/or gain the above, you should try them sometime.

Originally posted by pavil
I only hope to master it as well as you one day. I will try.
I have a feeling that will be the funniest statement I will hear on here all week. Thanks.

I see the humor in this too.

It is funny that you repeatedly have failed to come up with ANY good argument or evidence to support your claim that Criss Angel is only an illusionist.

In having given you ample opportunity to state your case, it is now time to hit the ignore button and focus on other people and posts that hopefully will be more illuminating and less prejudiced by comparison.

Originally posted by violet
As for him walking up walls. I think this is done by him walking on a mock up of a building, that he walks on normally and they rotate the film (sideways) after. It's how it's done in movies, and I'm sure it is much the same concepts being used in MF.

This has already been addressed.

There is no mock up, all the angles are covered, and it is not done on a stage but in broad daylight on the outside of a building. One way to quickly see through a mock up is not just from noting the limited camera angle but also from the lighting.

Originally posted by violet
I bring to your attention, about two thirds into the video, his brother talks of being a child & walking in to find his mother levitating on a broom. He then says "It was his first illusion he saw CA do". He didn't say this was the first time I saw Criss' powers!
So the broom was an illusion. I think this should bring you closer to the realization the levitations are illusions.

If Criss Angel won't directly admit to having a Gift of Chi-Telekinesis (although he has done so indirectly by saying that a lot of what he does is real) then what makes you think he would be stupid enough to have his own brother contradict him?

What...you don't think they talk to one another?

His brother is even part of his crew.

I think this should bring you closer to the realization that you are naive in your appraisal of Criss Angel, his family, and his crew.

Like seasoned politicians, everything said on camera is carefully rehearsed and edited well in advance

His brother has occasionally had this slightly glazed look on his face when talking about Criss. Like he really doesn't understand how Criss does what he does, but wishes to hide that opinion from the general public.

Being able to read people is a good skill to develop.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard

I see the humor in this too.

It is funny that you repeatedly have failed to come up with ANY good argument or evidence to support your claim that Criss Angel is only an illusionist.

In having given you ample opportunity to state your case, it is now time to hit the ignore button and focus on other people and posts that hopefully will be more illuminating and less prejudiced by comparison.

He is not only an illusionist. He is a magician, and stunt/feat person too. Like Derek Brown, he uses combinations of techniques to achieve his Mindfreaks. He is very good at what he does.

Just cause my arguments and evidence doesn't agree with your viewpoint does not mean they are not valid. You sir have provided no evidence whatsoever of CA TK powers. You have stated the videos speak for themselves and have conceded that CA does infact edit his video and will lie to make money.

I am glad you ignore people who do not agree with your mindset. That truely is the test of an open mind. You must ignore a lot of people huh?


[edit on 14-8-2007 by pavil]

Daniel Dunglas Home was the most celebrated medium of the 19th century. Although his name is not very well known today, he astonished audiences, friends, heads of state, and the rich and famous with startling paranormal feats and levitation. His seemingly impossible powers bewildered those who witnessed them, including many respected scientists and journalists.

In a well-lit room before Professor David Wells of Harvard and three other spiritualist investigators, Home caused a table to move all about, even though he stood nowhere near it. It took all the strength of two of the witnesses to restrain the table. Upon its release, the table levitated completely off the floor for several seconds. When Wells and two others sat on the table, it continued to rock. They could find no scientific explanation for the experience.

In December, 1868, Home gave what is perhaps his most famous performance. At his apartment in London, Home conducted a séance for three respected gentlemen. After some "conventional" spirit apparitions, Home began to walk around the room. His body elongated, according to the witnesses, then Home rose off the ground. Returning to the floor he then went into an adjoining room. The men heard a window open in that room and shortly after saw Home apparently floating in midair outside their window. The apartment was three stories up. Home opened the window from the outside, then "glided into the room feet foremost and sat down."

paranormal.about.com...

I'm watching the video violet posted right now, it should be noted that at around 8:35, CA levitates topless. NO HARNESS.

Just for you, pavil

Its seems Criss Angel had a predecessor Daniel Dunglas Home able to preform many of the same feats as CA.

His fame grew, fueled particularly by his extraordinary feats of levitation. William Crookes claimed to know of more than 50 occasions in which Home levitated, many of these at least five to seven feet above the floor, "in good light."[5]

en.wikipedia.org...

And not unlike today many claimed to be able to duplicate these levitations but were never able to.

Others claimed that they could duplicate Home's demonstrations in order to prove that a more earthly rationalization existed for his amazing feats:

Prominent stage magicians such as Harry Houdini, John Nevil Mackelyne, and John Mulholland claimed that they could duplicate Home's feats but never did. Houdini announced he would duplicate Home's levitation at Lord Adare's home, but cancelled the event.

And of course the Debunkers tried to prove he was a fraud but it was never proven.

As word of such events spread, debunkers began their crusade to prove that Home was a hoax. One debunker, W.M.Thackeray met with Homes and afterwards stated, "It is all very well for you, who have probably never seen any spiritual manifestations, to talk as you do; but had you seen what I have witnessed, you would hold a different opinion".

www.spartechsoftware.com...

Etshrtslr & MrdDstrbr,

You guys have definitely been doing your homework.

Etshrtsir...great find on Daniel Dunglas Home

...because many of his feats were accomplished in broad daylight in full view and inspection of witnesses, Home must be regarded either as one of the greatest magicians of all time... or a true medium with extraordinary, unexplained powers.

That brings about an interesting point, if one takes the position that Home's abilities were not supernatural: If Home had presented himself as a magician rather than a medium, he might be regarded and remembered today with greater awe than the legendary Houdini.

Source

Funny how that is EXACTLY what Criss Angel is doing, but in REVERSE: he touts himself as an illusionist, magician, mystifier, and mindfreak INSTEAD of a medium who has various Gifts of the Spirit.

BINGO

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
I'm watching the video violet posted right now, it should be noted that at around 8:35, CA levitates topless. NO HARNESS.

Just for you, pavil

Oh...WELL DONE.

I clocked it at 8:36 to 8:40.

Well, that wraps up that particular point of debate from the opposition.

Unless they now wish to suggest that Criss Angel is actually wearing false skin and oh, of course, has invisible wires too - along with that pesky invisible helicopter or cloaked Zetan spacecraft above him.

To Eyewitness86 and everyone else who supported the cause of espousing that Criss Angel is an illusionist who also has a Gift of Chi-Telekinesis, I do believe it is time for us to to pull out that bottle of Asti Spumante (or imported Sangria) and make a toast to our success in this debate.

So we're saying that if a group of laymen (non-magician types) can't specifically explain how an illusionist does his tricks, then there must be a supernatural/paranormal explanation. Even though the Criss Angel's (and David Blaine's, David Copperfield's, Harry Houdini's et al) of the world make their millions by doing things that would seem to defy ordinary explanations.

And we're gonna break out the booze and celebrate it, putting the question to rest.

That's cool. You win.

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
I'm watching the video violet posted right now, it should be noted that at around 8:35, CA levitates topless. NO HARNESS.

Just for you, pavil

Indeed he is topless. 4 1/2 seconds of CA descending. How come we don't see the full levitation from rising to the descent? Surely they had a camera on then too, right? Camera angle and speed of the filming however are suspect. And we still never see directly above him. Notice how he wavers as he goes down. Just looks like he is being lowered down more than levitating down to me, but then I am the cynic here. Not very convincing to me Sorry, Show me it in real speed and the camera panning around and show me the whole freaking levitation.

[edit on 14-8-2007 by pavil]

Originally posted by Paul_Richard

Well, that wraps up that particular point of debate from the opposition.

Unless they now wish to suggest that Criss Angel is actually wearing false skin and oh, of course, has invisible wires too - along with that pesky invisible helicopter or cloaked Zetan spacecraft above him.

To Eyewitness86 and everyone else who supported the cause of espousing that Criss Angel is an illusionist who also has a Gift of Chi-Telekinesis, I do believe it is time for us to to pull out that bottle of Asti Spumante (or imported Sangria) and make a toast to our success in this debate.

Glad to see you again judging yourself the winner in the debate and being in the debate as well. Wonder how I lost again? I guess I will leave the judging up to the readers here at ATS as to who has provided more compelling evidence of their side.

So I suppose CA just Chi-TK himself through the wall when the car hit him right?

Just got back from a trip to Charlotte and have read the latest. It is apparent that PaulRichard has reached the same conclusion I have about Pavil, he has joined the ignore list along with ignorant ape due to continued refusal to contribute to this discussion is an intelligent and realistic manner.

The people who claim invisible wires and paid witnesses after all we have demonstrated are just beyond help; they deserve to continue their far reaching sillness alone or with others whose continued denials in spite of reams of evidence consigns them to a position that takes them out of the mainstream of the discussion.

Just because some trick was performed in an entirely different manner, they simply act as if it makes no difference !! Or at the bottom of the heap we find the accusations of everyone and their uncle being a part of it; just repeated assertions of the same old failed and disproven nonsense: invisible wires..paid legions of people..this is so empty and barren it is embarrassing and for the sake of gentlemanliness I will refrain from replying to these spurious posters in the future as a service to avoid being a cause of their embarrassment and humiliation in the eeys of the aware and discerning people involved here.

Now, on to more interesting things: PR, very good explanations about the nature of the forces behind Criss abilities: Darren Brown using a finger to pop the stunned people back was telling to you and I believe what you say about that aspect..iot makes sense. Darren has a tremendous ability to influence minds and memories, cause sleep, hypnosis, etc..whatever it is, and quickly. The people that are most susceptible to being influenced fall under pretty fast. Suggestive words and some force get it done fast.

Darren would win hands down in any evet where it was primarily a contect of abilities centered on the psychic, influential, hypnotic, personal influence type of powers; Criss would dominate in the physical manifestations such as levitating, moving through solid objects, etc. Darren has the mind more than the body and Criss has the ' body ' more than the mind; although both can do some amazing things, I am more impressed overall by Darren!!

Criss can impress people with his abilities: Darrne could impress people with a vast range of skills and abilities, many very real and tangible, others sublime and esoteric.Darren would make a master salesman , thats for sure. I will try and find the video of the event I talked about earlier: But in brief, this guys girlfriend conspired with Darren to play a trick on this guy; one night while asleep, Darren enters a door left unlocked by the girl. With cameras rolling under low lights, Darren gently ' wakes ' the sleeping guy, promtly places him in a state of calm....gives him a choice of picking two cards, trick or treat..the guy picks trick and Darren puts him back to sleep after giving hiom a suggestion to get a passport photo taken the next day.

Darren sets up in advance a fake photo booth with special lights and speakers, etc, attached. This rather unassuming, average sort of guy is led by the girl and Darren into a twilight zone. After entering the booth, and putting money in for a pic, there are lights flashing, special lights in special sequences meant to induce a catatonic state combined with the hypnosis. They literally knock this guy stone cold OUT by using his mind and they bundle him into a van and fly him by plaane to Marrakesch, Morrocco, where they install the photo booth in a corner store.

Then the guy is given a suggestion in the booth and slowly comes around. Watching this througn a number of cameras and angles is incredible. You can just imagine losing your mind , or thinking you have, when your reality is turned around. The poor guy staggers around asking where he is..no one speaks English, but they left him some money, a plane ticket home and some other stuff. the film ended with the guy wandering aimlessly around , the look on his face quite disturbing..lost, afraid,shocked,disbelief..too sad.

I imagine the rest of the story is out there but it points out how easily a few guys with determination could radically alter reality for someone.Imagine your worst enemy, instead of having someone break your legs, instead hires some guys to pull a stunt that disorients you to the point of madness or severe trauma..the ultimate revenge? Rich men could play it like a board game using real people!! Use a human like a mouse and bet where he runs when certain stimuli are applied..track it in real time using the net..It could get nuts under the wrong circumstances and I hope that people who possess advanced abilities are always cognizant of their obligation to the Golden Rule.

There is a point at which we move beyond answering the silly stuff and nonsense and trust that the people who wiull benefit from this thread will most likley be those who will see for themselves the lack of substance for the Deniers creed of ignorance and save us the time and effort of refuting the really silly stuff, such as invisible props and paid witnesses..that is beyond foolish to assume under the evidence available.

So I feel relived and can move on to bigger and better things: If the Gifts of the Spirit are due to group entities, etc., why so they give such a disparity of Gifts to people? What I mean is why would Darren, with advanced chi and mind powers, be less able to do the levitations and disappearances, reappearances, etc. that Criss does? One might think , perhaps wrongly , that to levitate would be minor or lesser gift than the ones that directly impact the mind and consciousness at many levels, like with Darren.

It seems that Darren is the more sophisticated one, if you know what I mean, while Criss is sort of the rock and roll adept. Anyway, I am studying the material you linked and reading about the various aspects of the phenomenon..fascinating. I have not made my mind up yet and am going slowly and getting as much input as possible from all relevant people.

Lets find a few good Darren video's and juztapose them with Criss' and see if any features of them give us a clue that we may have missed before as to the extent of the abilities and importance to the world we inhabit. PR, you did a great job of holding up the flag while I was gone!!Still no bullet holes in it and flying high!

Originally posted by yeahright
Even though the Criss Angel's (and David Blaine's, David Copperfield's, Harry Houdini's et al) of the world make their millions by doing things that would seem to defy ordinary explanations.

Dont you think if Houdini could duplicate Home's levitation's he would have done so? He certainly would have made millions from it.

Home's even allowed himself to be scientifically tested in controlled experiments.

Between 1870 and 1873, William Crookes conducted experiments to determine the validity of the phenomena produced by three mediums: Florence Cook, Kate Fox, and D.D. Home. Crookes' final report in 1874 concluded that the phenomena produced by all three mediums were genuine,

en.wikipedia.org...

Not the sort of thing you do if your a fraud or hoaxer.

Originally posted by etshrtslr
Not the sort of thing you do if your a fraud or hoaxer.

Crookes and Home were buddies, though. Were they not? Crookes was a believer and was grasping at straws re the paranormal due to losing a brother. And I understand that. More than you know.

But it makes his "investigation" into Home suspect. To me.

[Edit to add]

Originally posted by etshrtslr
Dont you think if Houdini could duplicate Home's levitation's he would have done so? He certainly would have made millions from it.

Houdini's on record stating Home was a fake. Houdini was doing fine without copying anyone. And the "copying" issue has come up before on this thread. Copying amongst entertainers is viewed much like plagarism. You don't want to do someone else's act. That's a road to ostracism. You don't see Lewis Black doing George Carlin's material, either.



[edit on 8/14/2007 by yeahright]

I neglected to mention the great find about Home: I had read a detailed account of that incident and others some years ago; solid evidence and unrefuted in history.

PR, yes , it is time. We can lay to rest any thought of having the debate dominated by invisble wires and massive frauds..the intelligent people can judge for themselves who has the substance. Enough said. I am partaking of my favorite form of recreational substance use right now!! The Volcano is rumbling and that means an eruption is imminent !!

If one looks at the history of Spiritism, or Spiritualism, as some say , there are MANY accounts of levitations and evidence of etherreal activity that extends in to the physical realm; ectoplasm for instance. Gravity seems to be easily negated by certain wavelengths of thought and in the annals of the Spiritist movement in the late 1800's and early 1900's, there are many instances of verifiable phenomenon that lend credence to the belief that the abilities we see manifested in cetain adepts today are well founded in history and reality.

Are group entities involved with the people seen in medium exchanges? Are they on a different plane than ' dead people ' or those spirits that have not gone forward beyond an elementary degree? If discarnate spirits can agree to mass their energies for certain reasons, could they not also mass them independently without the permission/ knowledge os a person? Could the human mind be so taken over by these groups that they literally act in place of the person? Which entity would dominate and make things orderly? So many possibilties!! just musing..

In any event, I am really hopeful that we can get some really good thoughts on the abilities we see manifest now that we have put the question of its legitimacy to rest once and for all; at least to those of us who cannot deny what the evidence, the witnesses , the videos, and out intellects and intuitive abilities tell us: Criss Angel uses NO PROPS in some of his events, like the high levitations. That being a GIVEN, and totally believable under the circumstances, it only follows that we are witnessing far more than the apparent and the signifigance of this truth should not be lost on those who witness it.

I am looking at Darren videos now and Criss videos also for some interesting comparisons and comments. This could get interesting!!