criss angel discussion...

Although it could be a diversion to hide his grander powers, I still believe all his levitations are illusions.

Have you witnessed a levitation ? I haven't. I've seen some amazing things, that seem to defy logic. But on further thought I can determine they were possible, if certain actions were used, even if those actions seemed an outrageous amount of effort. Isn't that what CA said to do, to think hard, can it be done, is it logical?

It could be they are watching the shadows showing them where the doll is being poked. Or reflections in shop windows. There's glass and reflective surfaces eveywhere. The participants believe it is real (because he says so) and so they react, and CA fakes the pain.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Just a quick question:

Does anyone have, or has anyone seen, the full set of footage from Cirss' headcam when he walks on water? I was reviewing the footage offerred in the Boradcast version, and may have noticed something interesting in his last few steps, but because of the shortness of the footage and lack of any other top angle, I cant make a full judgement.

He's done the head cam shtick before, as with the Atrium in the Luxor Hotel, but I don't recall him doing it when "walking one water."

It would be cool to see that.

Hi Eyewitness86 et al,

That first video of Criss Angel is downright freaky. Criss Angel obviously also has the Gift of Stigmata. This is not that surprising when one takes into consideration his other Gifts. However, that particular Gift is rare to find, much less see clearly on camera. Padre Pio, Francis of Assisi, and others, had a Gift of Stigmata.

The prophet Issa had it too. Like Criss Angel, he could turn it on and off basically at will. Issa used this to fool people into thinking that he was crucified by the Romans and then resurrected from the dead. This is mentioned by the former Catholic pope who identified himself as the entity Seth through Jane Roberts in the 1970s. Seth also said that Issa was saved from the Romans by his disciples, not betrayed by them, and that the whole story was turned around to make it look like Issa was the Son of God.

With the power of his Group Entity, which then worked through and around other people like Paul of Tarsus, the deception worked.

Seth said that the whole crucifixion was a "psychic event," not a physical one.

What a diplomatic way of putting it

I'm more direct than that.

It was a LIE.

Issa also told people not to touch him, which is documented. He did that so people would not wonder if he truly came back from the dead - which he did not.

Despite Criss Angel's impressive Gifts of the Spirit, he will not be able to rise from the dead in a newly created and fully developed humanoid body. That ability is beyond the scope of even the largest Group Entities.

Nonetheless, a new religious drama with Criss Angel as the central character, may indeed unfold. Just like it did with the prophet Issa some two-thousand years ago.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
I am sure that PR has a better idea as to exactly HOW it works but I am convinced that we are seeing real and true examples of this phenom at work.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

Derren Brown uses his GE Gifts in a number of ways in that video. It appears that he is using his energies to inflict physical as well as and emotional pain.

These "prophets" are not highly evolved or principled individuals.

[edit on 15-8-2007 by Paul_Richard]

Originally posted by Paul_Richard

He's done the head cam shtick before, as with the Atrium in the Luxor Hotel, but I don't recall him doing it when "walking one water."

It would be cool to see that.

I know, but i was looking specifically for footage from that specific trick. I know he has a headcam on, because the last 2-3 steps he takes (all of 2 seconds) there is a quick headcam shot. I was hoping you guys would have come across some more headcam footage from this trick.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf
I know, but i was looking specifically for footage from that specific trick. I know he has a headcam on, because the last 2-3 steps he takes (all of 2 seconds) there is a quick headcam shot. I was hoping you guys would have come across some more headcam footage from this trick.

Not a head cam shot, but for a good and long version of that feat, along with testimonials:

Criss Angel Walks On Water.

Originally posted by InSpiteOfYou have witnesses, hardly credible as none of them have sworn to what they saw, and only appear on MindFreak productions.

Did you not accept my honesty earlier in this endless debate when I swore I saw levitation, no cables, no cameras, and I paid to see it, I was not paid. If literally 100's of 1000's of paying customers who have seen Copperfield and Angel do it don't seem to contain one person with an account of seeing a prop, a wire, etc., nor being 'in on it', and paid... what is that if not credible evidence supporting the theory that we all saw what we saw, instead, it seems to me to be the first hypothesis one should research. The guesses which have zero evidence apparent at first are less of a priority, imo. In the years these guys have been seen doing this, none of the doubters has dug up one piece of supporting proof, another point worth noting.
Lets say that great multitudes of eyewitnesses devoid of any claims of seeing these chimerical 'props, wires, pay offs', etc. is good evidence that there is none. It is rare in other fields to see the theory with no proof more accepted and popular than the one with proof - the eyewitnesses in vast numbers. What logical defense of such a position can be proposed?
If you see it, and no one sees otherwise, which 'theory' has more substance? I saw it, and btw, Copperfield flew above the crowd, in places where no blue screen was behind him, relative to many viewers. Where are the folks claiming they know how to do it? Not doing it. That says it all.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII

Did you not accept my honesty earlier in this endless debate when I swore I saw levitation, no cables, no cameras, and I paid to see it, I was not paid.

No, i believed you were honest in your testimoney. That doesnt mean what you saw is actually what happened.

DId you read the Wiki article and the patent information?

David Copperfield performs a flying levitation created by John Gaughan that is considered by both magicians and laymen to be the world's finest. After his acrobatic flying around the stage, the audience suspects he may be suspended on wires, so Copperfield has spinning hoops passed over him to disprove this. He then floats inside a covered acrylic glass box to convince them otherwise. He selects a female volunteer from his audience and flies with her in a fashion similar to Superman carrying Lois Lane. The illusion sometimes ends with a falcon named "Icarus" grasping Copperfield by the wrist and flying off stage with him.

Source

Bolding mine.
Considering there is a patent for the machine used in this trick US patent 5354238
To my understanding, the name John Gaughan appears in the credits of Copperfields TV specials.
The fact he holds a patent for a leviation machine and works on copperfields shows creating illusions, should tell you somethings afoot.

I always sigh when I go to the links claiming proof of this stuff. It isn't proof at all, it is guesswork with drawings, and if any one of these debunkers, Randi, Penn and Teller, included, actually knew how it was done, they would do it. This Gaughan guy hasn't made a ripple in the news, so I assume he has yet to show he can copy the feats... what good is a postulation one can't back up with action. I start out siding with the view that what happened is likely what it looked like. Sometimes it isn't, as admitted by all magicians. But they say some is not illusion. So, lacking any takers who can step up and put there money where there mouth is, I'll believe that they can't do so. Maybe they can, but not doing what they claim they can do seems odd behavior in an area such as these types of unexplainable logic-defying feats. Words are cheap. Just do it.
They don't, likely cuz they can't, imo.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
I always sigh when I go to the links claiming proof of this stuff. It isn't proof at all, it is guesswork with drawings, and if any one of these debunkers, Randi, Penn and Teller, included, actually knew how it was done, they would do it. This Gaughan guy hasn't made a ripple in the news, so I assume he has yet to show he can copy the feats... what good is a postulation one can't back up with action. I start out siding with the view that what happened is likely what it looked like. Sometimes it isn't, as admitted by all magicians. But they say some is not illusion. So, lacking any takers who can step up and put there money where there mouth is, I'll believe that they can't do so. Maybe they can, but not doing what they claim they can do seems odd behavior in an area such as these types of unexplainable logic-defying feats. Words are cheap. Just do it.
They don't, likely cuz they can't, imo.

I think you misunderstand. John Gaughan is an engineer on Copperfields shows. He holds the patent for a levitation machine, linked above. Hes not a preformer, he simple designs the contraptions the preformer uses, in this case Copperfield. Read the patent info, search his name on google, watch a copperfield production (made for TV) with credits and see his name listed there.

The argument used in much of this thread is "no one can come up with a feasible way a levitation is done." Well low and behold, a vid describing Copperfields exact leviation is on that wiki page, and pretty convincing. Compile that with the fact that Gaughan is the holder of a patent for a "leviation machine", and works on Copperfields show, id say makes a pretty good case for how this trick is done.

That is good to know. Thanks, I am more informed now about him. Still, what about the lack of duplicaters? Not one guy who has seen the information wanted to try it? Or tried and failed? Or secretly did it, for some reason? Why no news of any successes?

Who cares about some prop that can only be used on a stage and under very controlled circumstances? We are talking about feats that are performed high in the air and in broad daylight, there is NO WAY that any ' levitation ' machines could be used, impossible. The Denier's STILL try the old silliness of linking on stage events to those we are discussing; it is an attempt to sway the focus from the inexplicable events to the possibly staged events and assume that there is no difference!! There is a total difference!!

Hi PaulRichard and others of sound reasoning; the video of the ' voodoo doll ' is for sure a rather disturbing one. The Denier's are in full denial with this one, climing reflections from buildings across the street and other nonsense to try and find a way to deny what they are seeing. Regardless of the cause, the people involved felt the effects that are seen on camera and there is no way that the people were tipped off. The people are facing the street, and so if they were to see a reflection, it would have to be from a business far away, with perfect lighting and the perfect angle so the glass would reflect rather than deflect the image from that distance.

No, what you see is what happened and what the truth is. I am not sure as to the mechanism, PR has a pretty good idea from personal experience so I will assume his explanation is correct until and unless proven otherwise. What is clear is that Criss does not need or use proprs to perform many of his events and there is NO proof or indication of any such elements in his body of works. The fact remains that unless you are willing to believe the most ludicrous and far fetched excuses for Criss events, you MUST admit that there are no mundane explanations for Criss abilities.

I am looking for more telling video's to peruse. It is clear that only the most seriously challenegd people, spiritually and logically sleaking, could still cling to the carcass of the failed notion that Criss is just a master at using invisible props and of generating total loyalty from everyone. Such an empty and sad way to see reality. so scared that the new ways might make them seem even more insignificant and weak than they are now. It is a fearful thing for the colloquial mind to be challenged by a new and stunning paradigm, and we see unreasoned denial as the symptom of the disease.

Yes, denial and willing ignorance is an illness, an illness of the mind and spirit that keeps all reality in a nest little box so that no upsets are ever necessary. It may be safe but it is limiting and means a lack of ability to move beyond the usual to the next level. Keep up the good work, all of you, who see the truth and defend the sensible. We are starting to shame the obviously empty deniers away and either the defenders of the nonsense will find themselves looking like fools or admitting that they might be wrong about Criss, et al.

Illogical insistence on denying the obvious says a lot more about their mindsets than we ever could. It is starting to thin out a bit and maybe soon we can get the ball roling on the really telling parts of this reality.

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
That is good to know. Thanks, I am more informed now about him. Still, what about the lack of duplicaters? Not one guy who has seen the information wanted to try it? Or tried and failed? Or secretly did it, for some reason? Why no news of any successes?

No problem, by the way, I was young when copperfield was still doing stage magic, but i always wished i could see him. It must have been a fun experiance to see him live.

As for the duplication. Well one man holds the patent to the machine, and it was created for Copperfield. Pretty sure no one else was able to get their hands on such a machine. Besides, Copperfield had done a spectacular job with it, why duplicate it when he has already pushed the machine to its limits?

Eyewitness86, maybe you could highlight the part of my post where I said CA does his levitations the same way? Oh wait, you cant, because I wasnt talking about Criss Angel or his illusions, I was talking about David Copperfield and his stage levitation illusion. If you want to launch into a diatribe of how my excuses are silly, at least target a specific point pertaining to Criss Angel in my post.

So sorry, I thought that this was about Criss Angel..Copperfield means nothing to this discussion as he has never attempted to perform feats off of a stage. Criss is the subject of this because he does things that NO ONE else on earth does. The stage magcicians like Copperfield, who use props, are totally different from the adepts like Criss and David and Cyril.

I read the patent material and the machine for the staged events is huge and extremely complicated; columns and wires and such in a very complicated arrangement and requiring numerous assistants and engineers to stage. this is NOT what we were talking about, and distractions and asides are Ok but not relevant.Wires can be seen and felt, and Criss has never needed or used such things in his acts; not needed.

Criss can do things that no other person on earth can do; or if they can they have not chosen to demonstrate such abilities. Criss is far and away a totally different case than any other performer. The Denier's still cling to any spurious issue to try and prop up their failed beloief system. They attempt to shift the focus away from the truth with aspersions of props, even when they are impossible to see or are impossible to use under the conditions shown.

Of course Copperfield and Randi and Banachek and all the others have to stay on a stage and in a building; they have no innate abilities like Criss does, they rely on trickery. The part that gets the Denier's so frustrated is the FACT that no trickery is even POSSIBLE for many of Criss' events, and they just cannot fathom that. It stalls their brains in neutral and all they can do is race the engine and imagine that the car is in gear when it is actually sitting still.

To those who recognize the real deal and know that Criss needs no props, I congratulate you. To those who still insist that there must be invisible props and legions of paid witnesses, all I can say is you have my sincere sympathies for your inability to discern the truth. An open mind is the antithesis of the denier; they exist on faith in nothing to assuage their fear of the truth.

Once again I never said, nor implied, that CA uses that specific machine to aid his levitations. The Copperfield issue was brought forward by BlackGuard and I was countering his assertions.

Appology accepted.

[edit on 16-8-2007 by InSpiteOf]

Ok, so know we have people comparing CA to Jesus, I knew it was coming. How many "gifts" does CA have? Besides the cutting the girl in two can the belivers name another illusion they claim CA has performed? It, seems like everything he does is a miracle to you.

Nice find on the Levitation Device and patents.

I find it odd that you will bash some magicians and not others for having or not having the "gift", even when they perform similar tricks.

Originally posted by eyewitness86

Hi PaulRichard and others of sound reasoning; the video of the ' voodoo doll ' is for sure a rather disturbing one.

Since eyewitness and PR have put me on ignore they did not see Derek Brown basically do the same voodoo thing onlly this time debunking it, without any object of the person in doll. But of course DB has the "gift" too, I forgot. Even though he states that peoples belief in the thing makes it a reality for them. Glad that they put up CA's one after the fact.

If you look at the video, you can plainly see that he has met with the girl before and slipped her back into a hypnotic state, look at how he talks and grabs here, it's classic stuff. Hypnotism is pretty powerful, I have seen it's effects first hand on a cousin, who by no means was a stooge and "in" on it. The hypnotist even planted a word suggestion on my cousin and when we saw him by chance at the State Fair 2 months later, he used the word and instantly, she went into the pre programed behavior. It was disturbing how easy it was for him.

Hypnotism is real. Human Levitation is not. Sorry.

Has any one seen the first episode of "Enemies of reason"?

Look at around 4:37 you will hear Derek Brown himself Debunking things in "Enemies of Reason". You can find videos of the first part online but they get taken down quick by Channel 4 copyright claims.

[edit on 16-8-2007 by pavil]

Originally posted by eyewitness86
The Denier's are in full denial with this one, climing reflections from buildings across the street and other nonsense to try and find a way to deny what they are seeing. Regardless of the cause, the people involved felt the effects that are seen on camera and there is no way that the people were tipped off. The people are facing the street, and so if they were to see a reflection, it would have to be from a business far away, with perfect lighting and the perfect angle so the glass would reflect rather than deflect the image from that distance.

When I said other reflective surfaces (as well as the shadows, you neglected to mention), you need to think of more than just the shop windows I suggested. There was most likely cars around that also reflect, not to mention many other things that can be used as a mirror. and we have no way of knowing what was there, from another angle.

You cannot deny that reflections were not present when this demo was done. So that has to be considered as a possibility, which was your question 'to come up with a way it could have been done.

As shown in the darren video, when he did the Voodoo Doll, it would be the same way with CA. They can see (in the reflections) roughly what part of the doll he touches, They don't need a clear view at all. Then because he has made them believe in the voodoo doll powers, thier mind is tricked into believing the pain is real, because they are "expecting" it. This is about the power of suggestion, which explains why the participants are so convinced.

As far as saying the Deniers have closed minds, etc.

This doesn't relate to the REAL things he does, just the illusions and tricks.
CA is teaching the Art of Illusion and deception, and lies (his words). What your supposed to be figuring out, is that great feats can indeed be made to LOOK and FEEL supernatural. It's the greatest lesson you can learn, and is important, because some people have experienced supernatural events, that leave them troubled and fearful. I think that is what he means when he says he wants to help people overcome thier fears.

It just takes some of you (believers) longer to get to this stage. When you reach this stage of knowing how to recognize supernatural fakery (not to suggest it's all fake), you will be much more enlightened, and view things differently. At this stage you have opened your minds too wide, thus allowing it to be filled with clutter, where you are open to believe anything.




[edit on 16-8-2007 by violet]