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criss angel discussion...

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posted on Aug, 18 2007 @ 03:43 PM
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Now you are getting silly. I did NOT say anything about accepting that Criss is being picked up ONLY in the upper torso area. What a foolish thing to assume. Nonsense. I never said or implied that. That is beyond boring.

Criss, his entire body, is OBVIOUSLY being lifted into the air by some unseen force. THAT is what I said and meant. I will make this as simple for you as I can: since the upper torso are is the heaviest part of the body, there is more force needed to lift it than for lesser weiging areas..OK so far?

Now, since the torso area is being lifted by whatever unseen force Criss is using, it is NATURAL that his legs would be able to swing a litle or sway, why should they hang straight down as if he was not moving? he is moving!! UP. And right in front of witnesses!! With NO props!!The upper torso area has more weight, THAT is what was said. You are not slick enough to merely twist words and misquote and ask spurious and irrelevant questions and then change the focus, no way. Amateur. Your petty that lack of substance is showing badly; why not come up with some good reason to believe that Criss is using props in that video? Because you cannot, so you try to parse words and change to focus by alluding.

It illustrates far better than I ever could how bare your cupboard is; now I must be in some way on Criss payrol, right? Thats great!! PaulRichard, are you hearing this? I knew it had to come some day, the deniers would get so frustrated with their inability to refute the truth that they will actually accuse one or more of us of being connected with Criss Angel!! A,azing. For the record, I have never spoken to him, met him or anyone associated with him, never been to a live show..nothing but watching videos and using the old noggin.

I only have an interest in the subject because I know that Criss is using abilities that are not the usual and I KNOW that his high levitations and such are not hoaxes, they are real levitations. And that means something. Unlike the deniers, I do not fear the implications of that and so I appreciate the truth and defend it against shallow and nonsensical attacks from ignorant , spiritually obtuse level one types who are unable to evaluate and proces the evidence properly and render an accurate veridct.

Any other suggestion as to my interest here is beyond stupid and will be ignored henceforth.the issue is not ME, it is your lack of any likley way to explain the event, if you had forgotten. Please explain with a likley and intelligent alternative to what is seen and asserted, or blend back into the forst with the rest of the background scene.

When you have to get so petty that you are arguing about the rate of feet sway in a video where no props are possible, that says it all. Desperate. If that is the only proof you have of Criss using props in that video then you should pack it in pal. It only gets worse from here.Better to cut your losses and run now, I hate to see new guys get mauled.




posted on Aug, 18 2007 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by nextguyinline
I don't deny their may be some forces that are unknown, I'm saying that Criss Angel does not have those abilities, nor does he use them in his ILLUSIONS.


In order to be able to say with 100% certainty that they are ILLUSIONS, you guys need to PROVE that CA is paying off MANY eyewitnesses in order to keep them quiet about how the feats are actually done and the props/equipment used.

You can't PROVE the paid-off eyewitnesses, so you can't say they are definitely ILLUSIONS.



posted on Aug, 18 2007 @ 05:06 PM
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Well thanks for the hoot anyways.


You guys win. You KNOW it's real levitation, that's good enough for me.

Enjoy the show!



posted on Aug, 18 2007 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by MrdDstrbr

In order to be able to say with 100% certainty that they are ILLUSIONS, you guys need to PROVE that CA is paying off MANY eyewitnesses in order to keep them quiet about how the feats are actually done and the props/equipment used.

You can't PROVE the paid-off eyewitnesses, so you can't say they are definitely ILLUSIONS.


MrdDstrbr,

I think since levetation is the unknown force and extremely rare if it is true then one would normally assume it was all illusions and then disprove that it was, and not the other way around.

The problem with many here on this post is not that they believe he is real it’s that they are 100% convinced he is real and will totally denounce anything otherwise. I do not think it is real and my assumption is based on my knowledge in magic tricks and that it is a TV show on A&E. Saying that, if further physical proof came about I could easily change my mind. As example, if he walked into my house and levitated up on a chair I would then be convinced it was real. Since it is just a video on a TV show and many of his stunts are tricks, and obviously he does have some kind of setups to start these events then there are just too many variables to say with conviction his levitation it is real.
If anyone on this post would say hey I think it is real but I’m willing to find out the truth no matter which direction it took my faith then that person would be very close to my reasoning even though they started with an opposite view of my own.



posted on Aug, 18 2007 @ 05:42 PM
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I see that my co-patriots are doing very well in here.




Originally posted by Xtrozero
if he walked into my house and levitated up on a chair I would then be convinced it was real.

Then I suggest you go see Criss Angel in one of his live performances at or around the Luxor Hotel in Las Vegas.


Originally posted by nextguyinline
Do you work for Criss? Are you Criss? If you don't, you just sound silly with your higher than thou contempt. You aren't gonna convince anyone that an illusionist entertainer has super powers, so just shut-up and enjoy the show.

Actually, if we worked for Criss Angel - aka Christ Angel - we would not be in here espousing that he has a Gift of Chi-Telekinesis and that he can really levitate.

Criss Angel does not openly proclaim that he has such a Gift. Nor does David Blaine or Derren Brown.

None of them will admit to it because they wish to be known as outstanding performers and continue to make a ton of money. As opposed to being known as genuine psychics and telekinetics who would thereby be targeted for ridicule by all the skeptics that are well represented in this thread.

The reason why no one can duplicate Criss Angel's high levitations is because no one currently has a more powerful Gift of Chi-Telekinesis - with the probable exception of John of God in Brazil; but that energy is focused in other directions which are generally nobler in intention.


They come in their thousands. The sick, the lame, the 'incurable' and the medically discarded, to a small town in central Brazil. They endure long international flights and for some long bus trips to Abadiania, high on the plateaux of Central Brazil. They come to be cured by the miracle healer, João Teixeira de Faria ... the man they call John of God.

He will scrape away cataracts and eye tumours with a knife, remove breast cancers with a small incision and cause the crippled to walk with just the touch of his hand. In a meditation room a ceiling high stack of discarded crutches, wheelchairs and braces pays silent testimony to his success. He is acclaimed as the greatest healer of the past 2,000 years.

Buses arrive throughout the night. At 5am it is cool and still. A heavy mist blankets the town of Abadiania much of which has grown to cater for the thousands who pilgrimage here. People sit outside the simple lodging houses talking softly... waiting. Some sleep in cars or buses or simply stand around waiting for the sunrise. The lodging houses provide free coffee for the weary travellers who spill from newly arrived buses all through the night. Dawn will bring new hope of a life without pain or illness.

John of God in Brazil

DENY IGNORANCE

[edit on 18-8-2007 by Paul_Richard]



posted on Aug, 18 2007 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by eyewitness86
One even asks why Criss does not do HIGH levitations in small enclosed rooms!! Imagine that? Uuhhh, maybe because he does not want to bump his head on the ceiling!! Or maybe the entities that are giving him the ' lift' that raises him up are limited in smaller spaces to a degree that is not a factor in wide open places, hence the much higher and longer and moving levitations we see at the Luxor and at the Golf Course events.


Acutally, pavil's point was that he doesnt do levitations in a smaller atmosphere, removing the posibility of a crane, or that invisible helicopter you made up.



Criss simply can levitate and why the hell is that so hard for so many of you to comprehend?

Nothing hard to comprehend about this issue at all. We understand your position prefectly. Our position is simple, All, I repeat, ALL of the footage available showing Criss levitate is from his production company, has gone through post production editing, and as such, is suspect. There is ZERO independant footage (accept maybe a 2 second clip spliced into the MindFreak footage) of any merit.




If a Denier was called for jury duty, and agreed to make a decision based SOLELY on the evidence presented in court and not based on ANY personal or preconceived ideas , how would they handle the following?

I love your little analogies. Im sure this one will highlight all of your available evidence.



If the evidence that we have shown here, the video's, the eyewitness testimonies, the thousands of independent witnesses who have seen Criss events up close; if we take all of the evidence and present it and then rest our case, what would the other side produce to refute ours?

To the underlined: So if you were going to a court of law to present your case, do you really think the plantiff/acusor would accept MindFreak production footage as unbaised evidence? If i was the prosecutor of that case, Id ask for the unedited RAW footage of those events. Im sure that footage is a lot more telling.
To the bolded: Really? Thousands of independant witnesses to these levitations? hmm, pavil already listed some numbers and after adding them up, im still far away from 1000's. Maybe you could point them all out for us, video by video?



video trickery or editing to eliminate props and supports, NOT in any evidence..see where I am going?


Pavil posted a very telling video highlight a number of interesting points in the building to building levitation. The only point you refuted was the walking man, and even in your refutation you had to conscede to video editing. How about we go back and examine, point to point, that expose video and see how much evidence lacks for the case of video trickery?

[edit on 18-8-2007 by InSpiteOf]



posted on Aug, 18 2007 @ 06:04 PM
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There has been much debate about Criss Angel's levitations but not much about his ability to levitate other people.

For example...


Originally posted by 1 Tru Criss Angel Fan
... I Know Criss Angel Personally. I Live Really Close To Him. I Visited His Secret Cabaret One Day, And He Said, "Now Alex, I Want You To Close Your Eyes." He Gave Me A Second Or Two And He Said "Is That Completed?" And I Said, "Check!" He Said, "Now Stick Your Hands Out, Cross Your Feet, And Your Fingers." I Said "Check!" And He Said, "Now, Breathe. Gently." And Right Then, I Lifted Into The Air, He Yelled "Open Your Eyes, You Motherfugger!" I Opened My Eyes, And I Was Levitated 15 Feet Off The Ground.


Criss Angel Levitates Woman At Sunset Park

Criss Angel Levitates Woman On Sidewalk In Las Vegas

No one else is doing this type of feat off of a magician's stage.




posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 01:53 PM
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PR, they will NEVER allow us to focus them on the absolute evidence because they know that the debate is over. It is silly; they insist on bringing up nonsense like Pavils nitpicking nothings as examples of truth when all it is is an attemot to distract.

We post a video of a levitation done indoors in front of many witnesses at arms length, and what do they say? It is not high enough!! It did not go all the way to the ceiling!! Then when you show them one with no ceiling and no props, they say that it is all editing!! It is IMPOSSIBLE to pin them down because they are dishonest intellectually and in every other way about this issue.

There is NO amount of evidence that will suffice; guaranted if Criss appeared in their living rooms and did a levitation, they would claim that they were being hypnotized or had been drugged, blah, blah, blah. they will NEVER admit that they are unable to refute the obvious; they simply do not have the requisite character to be able to admit when the evidence is overwhelming and irrefutable.

They try to distract with silly side issues that have nothing at all to do with the main issues, and then divert the attention with silliness and denial. POST PRODUCTION film: as if Criss could make a living from live shows if it all is dependent on film trickery!! They do not even think past stage one. If Criss had to rely on film editors( who always remain loyal like all of the legions of paid witnesses they claim!!) to make him look like he is really levitating, then his live acts would never take place, would they?

And if props were used in the high levitations then we are to believe that all of the hotels and employees and witnesses are lying or paid off also, right? They simply do not see how big a hole they dig when they start with their nonsense. Their side is totally bereft of evidence, and ours has ALL the evidence. They have to prove a negative; we only have to show the evidence anbd watch as they squirm and twist and sputter and dance around the issues.

Exactly WHO is it that the Deniers are trying to convince? People with a modicum of common sense and the ability to discern reality will laugh at their excuses as NO EVIDENCE exists that supports their assertions; we on the other hand have only to present the truth and the videos and the eyewitness testimony and the FACT that not ONE person has EVER come forward to denounce Criss as a fraud, NOT ONE in all those years. But that means NOTHING to the deniers, and for reasons I have already explained in detail. They are unable to, and so they just deny.

No different than the people who will always insist that the twin Towers fell from fire; to believe that the Govt. is that evil and corrupt and that our ' leaders ' are that criminally negligent is just too unsettling for them, it would wreck their preceptions and render them useless, or even more usless than ever.

No, we are fighting ' intentional ' ignorance, WILLING disregard for the facts; the deniers are desperate to believe that no man can do things that they cannot do so they hold fast to their stubborn denials despite all of the evidence to the contrary. they will NOT address the points you made, theey CANNOT without looking foolish, and so they will call a few names and then go right back to repeating the same old nonsense over and over: Video editing, paid witnesses, props that cannot be seen..like a mantra that calms them ands gives them assurance in a crazy world where even GRAVITY can be something other than what it seems. See why they run?

Anyway, we might as well just realize that certain deniers will NEVER address the points that we make because to do so would expose them as empty, which we have done over and over, they cannot even come up with a new one now and then, how disappointing.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by eyewitness86
PR, they will NEVER allow us to focus them on the absolute evidence because they know that the debate is over. It is silly; they insist on bringing up nonsense like Pavils nitpicking nothings as examples of truth when all it is is an attemot to distract.

We post a video of a levitation done indoors in front of many witnesses at arms length, and what do they say?


Where exactly was the video shot? Do you know? Was is indoors? What makes you say that? Where was the ceiling? Looks that way from the door handle, but why does CA include two shots of people obvioulsy outside, 2 men and a shot of 2 women who are outside in the sun. and at about 6 seconds left in the far left of the screen you see the end of a wall and perhaps a tree. Either way it is still not the small normal sized room w/ ceiling that I have NEVER seen CA try. The "spirits must not work in small enclosed spaces" line is quite funny as an explanation, please explain the reasoning behind that one.


One other thing I noticed, why does CA do the weird leg thing, lifting it up and bending it. I am not sure if it is always, but he has done it on multiple times.

Could you please try to respond with a maximum of 3 paragraphs and no insults to anyone about anything. Just reply to the questions I pose.

Thanks.

[edit on 19-8-2007 by pavil]



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 04:13 PM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard


Originally posted by Xtrozero
if he walked into my house and levitated up on a chair I would then be convinced it was real.

Then I suggest you go see Criss Angel in one of his live performances at or around the Luxor Hotel in Las Vegas.


What I mean by my house is someplace that he was unable to visit prior to the feat. Also wearing just a pair of shorts and a T-shirt would be good to, and then all I would need is a very small show of his powers, just enough to actually defy the laws of physics, but anytime the magician is the one who chooses location, time, rules you are only walking into his world and he will fool you everytime.

With Criss and many other magicians where you see them (either on a street corner or stage) IS their stage. The fact they can make something look impromtu is part of the trick.



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 04:59 PM
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Hi Eyewitness86,

I was about to reply to the latest post after yours and decided to hit the ignore button instead. It isn't worth the effort.


After a while you get to know quickly which ones are too far embedded in bias to be reached.

If people aren't going to believe that city sidewalks, parks, and golf courses are places where levitations cannot be faked, and who will also not believe the abundance of eyewitness testimonies, as well as the visual evidence, then it indicates that their prejudice makes them too blind to see no matter what we show them or what cogent argument we provide.

Maybe we should just concentrate on the others, like David Blaine and Derren Brown.



[edit on 19-8-2007 by Paul_Richard]



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 06:06 PM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Hi Eyewitness86,

I was about to reply to the latest post after yours and decided to hit the ignore button instead. It isn't worth the effort.


Ohhhhh. It isn't worth the effort to try and respond but you will write a fairly long response anyway. Give me a break and answer the questions I posed.

Why does CA include in that "indoor high levitation", which by the way is shot in a very monochromatic style with no evidence of Sun (ie shadows), a shot of two women with a lot of sun on them and plants around very much looking like they are outdoors? That didn't register with you? Must be me and my nitpicking again. Details like that bother me.

Either he is outside or he just included that unrelated shot to the indoor shot. Which is it?



I like your style, just refuse to comment on those things you can't explain away. Hey at least you didn't start insulting like your brother.

Go ahead take a shot, try to respond to my questions in the prior post.

I am curious to your answer as to why CA feels compelled to do that weird leg movement on some of his Levitations, can anyone see if it happens all the time they linger on a shot of him "landing"?



posted on Aug, 19 2007 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard

They come in their thousands. The sick, the lame, the 'incurable' and the medically discarded, to a small town in central Brazil. They endure long international flights and for some long bus trips to Abadiania, high on the plateaux of Central Brazil. They come to be cured by the miracle healer, João Teixeira de Faria ... the man they call John of God..


Sorry to burst your bubble again. I must just not have enough faith to believe, is that my problem?

www.mindspring.com...

www.mindspring.com...

skepdic.com...

This last one is the Best, but you will not like any of them since they come from that heretic James Randi.
www.randi.org...



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 03:07 AM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
There has been much debate about Criss Angel's levitations but not much about his ability to levitate other people.

Originally posted by 1 Tru Criss Angel Fan
... I Know Criss Angel Personally. I Live Really Close To Him. I Visited His Secret Cabaret One Day, And He Said, "Now Alex, I Want You To Close Your Eyes." He Gave Me A Second Or Two And He Said "Is That Completed?" And I Said, "Check!" He Said, "Now Stick Your Hands Out, Cross Your Feet, And Your Fingers." I Said "Check!" And He Said, "Now, Breathe. Gently." And Right Then, I Lifted Into The Air, He Yelled "Open Your Eyes, You Motherfugger!" I Opened My Eyes, And I Was Levitated 15 Feet Off The Ground.


This proves absolutely nothing!
Anyone of us could come along and post this, and be making it all up. Since when is text across a screen proof? This is all that is to me. Prove this Fan is telling the truth. If this is how you base truths and proof, I wouldn't want you as ny Jurors.

I also agree with the fact that he has very few witnesses present during these Illusions.

As for being paid off, if they were paid to shut their mouths, then that is what has been done hasn't it? I did come across spectators chatting on other messageboards, that mentioned being at CA's demonstrations and signing contracts about not discussing what went on. I've not come across anyone mentioning being paid though.






[edit on 20-8-2007 by violet]



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 04:57 AM
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reply to post by MrdDstrbr
 


You can't prove "paid offs" by the very nature they are paid off. You don't get a few quid and a pat on the head..you sign a legally binding document Jeez what is it with people. Its just TV friend. If the guy had real power he would be using it for good somewhere I am sure.

Talking of proof, prove it is levitation? You can't can you? Thus case is not proven, either way.

Anyway as I always say...if he can levitate why does he have a car, would you ?



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 05:32 AM
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I would believe this nonsense a bit more if I could select the venue and the crowd.

I see Mr Angel in his underwear only (not for pervy reasons but for reason of experimental control) in a room that only I and the crowd will know. None..repeat none of his production staff present and all of the crowd given cameras for a full 360 degree shoot of the so called "levitation". I know your Messiah would not accept the challenge because, sorry guys, your Messiah would fail.

If he can really stop a bullet in his mouth that too could be accommodated. In fact go one better and stop a full clip from an AK-47


The fact is all that footage you see is approved edited footage from a production company that shall we say, is biased. All this talk of that gig wasn't a set up because it was on a sidewalk. Crud. That's why he done it there..he knows that's what you think. You do not know what goes on behind the scenes, of his micro controlled world.

All that footage, even this board, is good publicity, is good money. It gets bums on seats and makes sure that the networks pay top dollar for an illusionists act.

You CA Cult guys wouldn't disbelieve your Messiah if he told you the truth. The Messiah is testing us....To paraphrase The Life Of Brian "Only the true Messiah would say he wasn't the Messiah!!"

Still being a Messiah must be great at picnics...can he make five loaves and three fishes feed five thousand


All this talk of prove its props makes me laugh. If levitation exists it is beyond our ability to prove it, it has to be, if we could prove it we could replicate it, couldn't we? Here you have a bunch of delusional people stating that someone can do something that can't be proven and that none believers should give their proofs otherwise. Listen to yourself guys. It is for you to prove it is levitation, current science says it ain't!!

If the guy could really do stuff, I am sure he would like to prove it to the world. He could really do James Randi a mischief and gain a million dollars, for starters.

Sorry guys, I gave up being deceived by magic tricks when I stopped eating jelly and ice cream and discovered girls, booze and sex.

Strewth, the guy could turn up dressed in a Ronald McDonald style clown outfit, with one of those fall apart clown cars, making balloon animals and you guys would still be gasping "Wow...where did that giraffe come from!!!"



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 06:29 AM
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Eyewitness86 and some other posters in this thread are in my humble opinion quite lazy and just want do bitch and argue for the sake of it.

Had you been serious in this you would have done your homework instead of bitching about tv-shows and how this or that proves that CA have real chi-telekinesis superpowers etc.

You should do your homework and research. Period.

Lets say for a moment that you had seen Derren Brown and some of his early mentalism tricks. (You do know what Mentalism is, dont you?)

And you go OH, AHH and argue on ATS on how Derren Brown probably have this awesome ESP-CHI powers (he do seems to be able to read minds!) and you come down on all fellow ATS members that says that this is all just tricks and argue them to death.

What I would do - which I actually did when I saw Derren the first time - was to read up on the subject and learn more, not just to be able to say "Oh you know, I know how Derren does this" but to be more knowledgable.

So I bought and read the book "Full Facts Book Of Cold Reading (4th edition)"

www.ianrowland.com...

and also to understand the background on Mentalism (and hypnotism) I bought and read Corindas old but interesting book together with "The New Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnotism" by Ormond McGill (which is also real good)

See, I do my research, but Eyewitness86 apparently doesnt, but likes to hang out and argue and call people names instead.

You keep argueing about CA and levitation and all you can come up with is videos from his shows and stuff on Youtube...

I would suggest that you take a week off from ATS and go and research stage illusions, maybe go down to your local magic shop, maybe Google the net for props for stage illusions.

There are excellent resources and communities on the net for practicing illusionists,mentalist etc. and when I went to one of the largest magic-forums today I found quite a few postings and discussions about the illusions on levitations. Why, they even mention some names where CA bought some of his levitation illusions in there.

So go and research and enlight yourself.

// k



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 07:31 AM
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Its interesting, eyewitness86 has posted countless times about how any outside observer to this conversation would side with the believers because they have provided more proof for their side than we deniers have. Yet, here we are, in the middle of an influx of deniers, and there are no new people chiming in claiming they have been swayed by believers arguments. Yet another part of his posts that has fallen apart in the real world, kind of like those statistics that never were given when we asked for them.


Originally posted by violet


This proves absolutely nothing!

We've been over this too, it matters little to them.




As for being paid off, if they were paid to shut their mouths, then that is what has been done hasn't it? I did come across spectators chatting on other messageboards, that mentioned being at CA's demonstrations and signing contracts about not discussing what went on. I've not come across anyone mentioning being paid though.

Can you link us to that board. Many of us are very interested in reading such things. If they accept that testimoney 1 tru criss angel fan posted, there is no reason they can brush this other testimoney aside.



Originally posted by kickass
There are excellent resources and communities on the net for practicing illusionists,mentalist etc. and when I went to one of the largest magic-forums today I found quite a few postings and discussions about the illusions on levitations. Why, they even mention some names where CA bought some of his levitation illusions in there.

Can you link us to that board as well?





[edit on 20-8-2007 by InSpiteOf]



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 08:19 AM
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Better that you yourself make a Google search for magic discussion forums...or PM me about it...



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 09:39 AM
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PaulRichard, you are absolutely correct, we have reached the nadir of our efforts as far as Criss is concerned. All we are going to do now is attract a few new drop ins that have not read ( or comprehended ) what has transpired so far and all they will do is parrot the same old nonsense we have been exposed to so many times already.

We have successfully demonstrated the absolute lack of evidence that shows that Criss uses props for his high levitations and many other events, and all that we will hear is a few Denier's propping each other up and procaliming silly non-issues to be of great import.

There are two camps here: on the one hand we have the people that have open minds and that can gauge evidence and facts and make a decision based on the proofs; on the other hand, we have the denier's, who refuse to acknowledge the evidence and proof and insist on clinging to their old paradigms despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

It is like trying to convince a child that a shot that really hurts is in fact good for them; the child simply cannot see past the pain, the immediate sensations of fear and anticipation of a painful experience. The deniers cannot see that they must get a shot of reality into their thinking before they can comprehend the signifigance of what they are seeing. They are a bit like castle ghosts, caught in denial of death and so wandering the halls moaning and trying to convince themselves that they are really alive and that all of the things they see are the ghosts!!

We have exhausted all reason and logic on them; it really is casting pearls before swine; they are not equipped to deal with the reality they are seeing and so they insist on beleiving the most ridiculous and unlikley scenarios rather than simply accept the truth. We have been visiting the playground for long enough, and we should return to the stadium and back into our league. We tried to show them the level of play that is possible, but then insist on using a set of rules that suits them and not a set that insures a level playing field.

They demand that we answer petty silliness as if it was genuine and meaningful..and when we give the best evidence one could hope for, they ignore it and see sky hooks and invisible wires and supports, paid off legions of witnesses, film editing..the list has narrowed down to a few silly suppositions not supported by ANY evidence, and yet they cling to these empty and hollow guesses as if they were valid observations.

There is no winning with them as they are predetermined to believe only their view no matter what. They set conditions for belief so high that no one could fulfill them; they want Criss and us to provide them with a front row seat and all the conditions exactly as they want, but even if that were done, they would still ceny. Why? Because they are unable to handle the implications of what the reality would mean. Plain and simple.

So, I for one am content to declare the high ground established and I am sure that any OPEN minded and AWARE person would understand that ALL of the evidence shows NO props, and that the desperate howling of the deniers is just another example of the lengths to which humans will go to maintain their comfort zone insofar as reality is concerned. We are not psychologists and therapists and we are unable to effect the kinds of changes in psyche that the deniers need to progress to the next level.

We cannot place elementary school kids into a college classroom and expect them to act like adults and process info correctly; it is beyond their ability to do so. from now on, I will respond to intelligent queries for info from open minded people, and will ignore any more repiticious and silly arguing with the nitpicking deniers.I agree that we should focus now on David and Cyril ,etc. and see what we can drag out of the minds of the people in regards to them; we have exhausted all of the manifestly valid evidence about Criss and those that are able to process it already have so no need to waste more time on side issues and silly nonsense.

Do you think we need a new and inclusive thread about it? I mean, we don't want to keep encouraging the deniers to spew their claptrap on every thread that come along until casual readers are discouraged and confused by the lies and silly suppositions of the rabid deniers..but then again they always seek out intelligent threads to infect; they either have too much time on their hands or a morbid desire to keep others as ignorant and ill informed as themselves, hardly a noble desire.

In any event, lets come up with a format that encourages intelligent participation and limits the attention paid to the silly and far out assumptions, such as the ones we see here used by the denial crowd. The deniers are like childred throwing a tantrum, kicking and screaming and crying and after it is all over they are still right where they were before, locked in their room until they see the light. If only we could insist on them getting out of grade school before they could post a comment!!

Lets put our thinking caps on and try and find a way to stimulate real interest from the open minded people while at the same time making it hard for trolls and deniers to infect the thread with spurious and immature obervations not grounded in reality or the evidence. The sad fact that the majority of people are close minded and shallow will mean a continued bother from the bench warmers but I guess they have a right to at least watch the game; if only they would have the manners not to bring the quality of the game down by unfounded and spurious noises that distract the home team as well as the visitors.

W.C Fields said it best: Go away, kid..you bother me!! The deniers should realize that their efforts to support ignorance will fail on all levels as the cream always rises to the top, as it will here. They will slowly sink to the bottom and remain with the sludge forever; all it takes is enough open minds and spirits and I am sure that there are more of those here than denier's. Nuff said, lets move on to more topics and people that the deniers cannot comprehend any better than they did Criss.



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