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criss angel discussion...

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posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 11:26 AM
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Eyewitness86,
My belief is that you should anyway try to educate yourself a little bit further than just having the shows, videos and occasionally stage shows to base your belief in. I somehow get the feeling that this is very important to you to prove that there are paranormal manifestations in the world. And CA is the one that you place your hope to.

Now I cannot vote for your faith, but rest assured that there is paranormal stuff going on, but maybe not at CA´s place.

As I said in my post above, you should immense yourself a little in the wealth of information *by* illusionists and magicans *for* illusionists and magicans.

You can bet that selling props and stage illusions is big money and they advertise as anybody else.

Take for instance this video:

www.youtube.com...

Looks quite cool and can actually be used so the girl lies flat on the floor, levitates up in front of the magican and turns to an upright position as in the video.




posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 01:11 PM
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I see nothing paranormal with Angel and I can't believe people think that there is.

I am amused that Angel believers are claiming to be open minded!! How can you be open minded and not accept the possibility of trickery?

These illusionists have quite some infrastructure supporting them. Teams of well paid people. The real heroes I think, are those constructing / designing the tricks. Its always about the background boys...from the guy opening a trapdoor on stage, to the guy making the box for the sawing in half act. There are many skilled people involved...I don't doubt Mr Angel practices and trains hard...as does the crane driver for his levitation acts!!!

Things must be getting desperate in the Paranormal Forum to have this here. Who next? Siegfried and Roy, Paul Daniels and the delightful Debbie?
If the paranormal just means stuff you can't explain, then my Uncle with his dodgy card tricks, when I was a child counts, the mystery of my socks disappearing in the wash counts...and the mysterious and wondrous world of the woman's mind counts too!!!



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 01:30 PM
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Originally posted by bash the bishop
You CA Cult guys wouldn't disbelieve your Messiah if he told you the truth. The Messiah is testing us....To paraphrase The Life Of Brian "Only the true Messiah would say he wasn't the Messiah!!"


So true.
I posted this video of an interview where Criss tells them the truth and they still can't see the light.
Here is their response: abovetopsecret

In this interview video, you will hear him say he is full of BS and actually laughs at his followers who believe he is superhuman



[edit on 20-8-2007 by violet]


Mod edit: repair video

[edit on 8/22/2007 by kinglizard]



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by InSpiteOf
Can you link us to that board. Many of us are very interested in reading such things. If they accept that testimoney 1 tru criss angel fan posted, there is no reason they can brush this other testimoney aside.


I'll try to find it again. I found it by googling key words, whcih is what I suggest the rest of us try. I may have googled "I saw criss angel demonstration.." or "live". I was trying to find people who were at live demos.

Google's SE searches (first for page title matching key words) then the pages that match those words on the page, and the page with a higher word count will rank higher in the results. So use words you think someone would use in a sentence, and even try mis-spellings, for people who may put Chris instead of Criss, etc. You'll be surprised what you find, when you start bringing up pages buried deep in the search engines. Search Blogs too.

There is also a topic on his A&E discussion board "Meet Criss Angel". People who met him chat in there or his other topics. Mind you, posts are deleted that show him in an unfavorable llght. For the most part, I've read he is a very nice guy. I did see one poster in this board who posted something nasty about meeting him and it was deleted when I went back. It had nothing to do with his work though, it was someone calling him sleazy and he ignored her/him when he walked by.

You also might want to try finding Fan boards, ran by Fans, not by Angel Productions or A&E. Fans talk alot more openly amongst themselves. I'm sure if you became freinds with some of them they may divulge more details in PM's!





[edit on 20-8-2007 by violet]

[edit on 20-8-2007 by violet]

[edit on 20-8-2007 by violet]



posted on Aug, 20 2007 @ 05:58 PM
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I saw this video on youtube where criss angel pays an audience to not tell antbody about how he does his levitation. its a bunch of camera crap ...

Source


I went to Chris' show a long time ago when he was playin timesquare. Had front row seats, totally saw strings, and other give aways from there that killed it for me ....

Source

And yet another levitation explained video I haven't seen. This says the reactions are filmed before the full levitation takes place and that a decoy spectator (plant) is used again to give the appearance it's the same crowd bearing witness



posted on Aug, 22 2007 @ 01:59 PM
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It was said a few (maybe 10 or more by now) pages back, that both sides should be congradulated at the relatively civil and interesting debate that has transpired here. Seeing as little information has flown into this thread in the last day or two (or more) i figured i would reinterate this point, because at the end of the day, its the only point that actually makes a difference to any of us. I think we all deserve a pat on the back and a beer to relax. Cheers to both sides, I had a blast.



posted on Aug, 22 2007 @ 03:17 PM
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I was really getting discouraged with the same old replies from the deniers, and I was getting too steamed at them as well. We will just have to agree to disagree as to what constitutes evidence and proof and lack thereof. We cannot work from two different set of plans and come up with a sound building.

The way I see it, the denier's have the following beliefs:They believe that Criss Angel somehow uses props on his high levitations despite the lack of proof of such. Here are the main contentions of the denier's:

1. All witnesses are paid off. All employees are paid off. All sign agreements that make them loyal forever. All of the eyewitnesses have stayed loyal for years.

2. The props are so state of the art that not only are they invisible to the eye and camera, but not detectable by any means known to man. No one has ever presented evidence of props during the high levitations.

3. Criss is nothing more than an ordinary, albeit talented, illusionist that simply does things that no other human being has ever done, and there is no prosaic reason for this, it is merely coincidental.

4. Criss uses ordinary latex skin and fake blood to fool the people when he performs; to believe otherwise would mean giving Criss credit for powers that illusionists obviously do not have!!

5. Criss depends on the most gullible and unobservant audiences that exist so he can fool them with the cheap tricks and obvious props thaqt no one can see but surely MUST exist. If only the deniers were there for a live show, they would certainly expose the wires and props and such!!

If you can think of any more, feel free to add them on. I am convinced that the above 5 main set of criteria for being a denier are inadequate for me personally and I happen to believe that all of the evidence says loudly and clearly that the deniers are wrong and that Criss does NOT use props for his high and other events that are plainy donw by his abilities and not props.

I will ponder the top 5 reasons to believe the truth, and will post them soon..If anyone cares to comment, please do so. More soon.



posted on Aug, 22 2007 @ 04:31 PM
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I won't go over the other points since we get nowhere.


Originally posted by eyewitness86
4. Criss uses ordinary latex skin and fake blood to fool the people when he performs; to believe otherwise would mean giving Criss credit for powers that illusionists obviously do not have!!


On this one I previoulsy mentioned I have seen this trick up front only with the coin moving down the forearm. I saw it up close and it was IDENTICAL to the one CA does, save for the upper arm.

He Had a similar type of armband, cut himself in the same spot, bled just like CA did, not profusely. I was so impressed with it that that I had to see it a second time to figure it out. I even went to a magic store to find out more about it. It is most definetly a trick that can only be done with prior setup by the magician. That you cling to it being his "power" in the face of such testimony is curious.

Do you not believe I saw the exact same trick two times? The only difference is that CA takes it a step further by doing the whole arm but he has the luxury of doing a "street" performance and then leaving. Most magicians have to do their whole "show" and the full arm latex piece doesn't hold up well and is hot.



posted on Aug, 22 2007 @ 06:03 PM
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Here's a close up of the latex cut margin. A real arm does not look like this when cut and the red gel resembles the 'fake blood' you can get at magic shops.



He gets the coin to move by using a small windup spring device hidden inside the wristband. The wrist band also serves to cover the seam in the latex 'arm'.

Simply palming the real marked coin at the start allows him to swap it with the pre planted coin under the latex at the 'reveal'.



posted on Aug, 23 2007 @ 02:51 AM
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Eyewitness86,
I am rather baffled about your ability to skip over all - quite valid - inputs on how the magic community works, how illusionists sell and buy both props and the performance rights for a trick. etc. You happily skip over ATS-people that tell you that they have seen other magicans and illusionists perform similar tricks but you just brush these arguments off.

Your opinion is set in stone, CA *has* powers we cannot imagine, regardless of what other people tell you. I am starting to wonder what your hidden agenda is?

When I look at your presentation post you actually say:




I am involved in a few discussions here now: The Criss Angel thread, Carrying Identification at all times thread, and several others. I am opinionated and bold, but always open to admitting that my beliefs are changeble depending on new info. I respect others views and I try never to be too hard on others as we all have our levels of learning and areas of expertise and already a few well placed comments have made me consider my positions of a few subjects, and that is a good thing!! I thank in advance the people here for allowing me to participate and I promise to engage in civilzed and respectful exchange of ideas at all times...if I ever get too strident, just tell me and I will back off and apologize. I NEVER want to lower the bar; raising it ensures that the future ATS will be even better than it is now, and that is saying something


Actually it is one thing to sound really humble in an intro-post, but when things start to heat up you really dont take into consideration any input besides your own, judging from your recent posts.

I would guess that whetever people tell you about illusions, tricks and gimmicks you will stubbornly rest in your opinion that this is all done with paranormal means.



4. Criss uses ordinary latex skin and fake blood to fool the people when he performs; to believe otherwise would mean giving Criss credit for powers that illusionists obviously do not have!!


I almost forgot you are a die-hard believer, it could not be tricks, since then your faith will shatter, right?

Why dont you try this illusion yourself?
www.mjmmagic.com...

But then again, CA doesnt use tricks according to you, but real paranormal powers so this link must be fake of course.

Judging from your way of skipping evidence that doesnt fit your own opinions you will of course brush this off as well.

I wont probably be posting more in this thread since you are becoming quite tiresome and wont listen to anybody but yourself, (despite your humble intro) but why dont you take a look at this before I leave...











[edit on 23-8-2007 by kickass]

[edit on 23-8-2007 by kickass]



posted on Aug, 23 2007 @ 03:07 AM
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Originally posted by eyewitness86
3. Criss is nothing more than an ordinary, albeit talented, illusionist that simply does things that no other human being has ever done, and there is no prosaic reason for this, it is merely coincidental.


No. This does not describe my thoughts on Criss.
There evidentally is something very special about him. I think he has extra-ordinary gifts, just the levitations are not one of them. If it could be proven to me he could really levitate like that, I would admit I was wrong, and would LOVE for you to be right!




[edit on 23-8-2007 by violet]



posted on Aug, 23 2007 @ 10:26 AM
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Sheer nonsense, all of it. Criss is NOT using fake skin and some string to pull the coin ( the coin signed by a witness) from his arm. How many here are surgeons and accustomed to various qualities of human skin and how it looks and reacts when cut? How many of you have ever seen human flesh cleaved? Well, I have to a substantial degree and although I am no expert on human skin wounds I have seen skin cut on a number of occasions, seriously including my own, and it does not seem any different than what we are seeing in that video. Also, remember that Criss uses his abilities to slow heartrate and to heal faster than normal and that could play a part in the effects we see also, but there is nothing on that video that would imply latex, none at all.


Criss does NOT have a little string under the latex skin..thats ridiculous and no evidence exits that would indivate that.Since he was merely pointing at the coin as it traveled under HIS skin, WHO was pulling the string? Some paid off and silent forever aide? C'mon now. Just because some stage magician can do a similar feat with NO CLOSE witnesses means nothing; Criss entire living and career depend on him never being found out, if in fact there is anthing to find out!!

As far as the poster who brings up my first post on another subject entirely, here is my reply: I am not beholden to sit back and sgree with nonsense and people who cannot discern material reality. I am hard on the deniers because they come to the table with NOTHING but suppositions and empty ones at that; NEVER has anyone brought any PROOF of Criss using props to the table, never. Not one witness ever comes forward over the years..but the deniers do not mention that. Also, I have been insulted and vilified without mercy by many posters yet I never get personal with any one person and get nasty, never. My observations are directed at DENIERS in general and no specific person.

The fact that the deniers are all dependent on the same LACK of evidence means they can be lumped together for the purpose of critiquing.

Not one prop or film of a prop has ever been shown, ever. NO PROOF exists that shows that Criss uses props in his high levitations and only the deniers can have the nerve to insist that the evidence is really there, but just so slick that it cannot be seen or witnesed or even alluded to over all these years..what a philosophy!! WHY has NOT ONE HUMAN BEING EVER duplicated Criss high levitations and other events? Hmmm? Because they CANNOT, not because they just don't feel like it!! To assume that is just stupid, lacking even a basis in reality or liklihood.

I have given example after example and examined this from every angle and what do we see? the same old tired excuses from the denier's: Cheap tricks that would not fool anyone, much less witnesses right there inches away..do you really think that Criss Angel would stoop so low as to risk his career for some cheap trick with latex skin? Latx can be seen clearly as totally different from real skin, and Criss cut his real skin open and took out the coin that was written on by the witness. No evidence of strings, no evidence of latex, none.

You cannot compare apples and oranges yet that is exactly what the deniers do all the time in a desperate attempt to dissuade from the truth. NO evidence has EVER been brought that shows Criss using props for his high events and there never will be. Why? Because if there were props we would have seen them or had some hint of the possibility of them being factual yet there is none. The guesses are still as vacant as always: Paid witnesses, film tricks, props that are so advanced that they are invisible and intangible..yet they trumpet these silly suppositions as if they had some validity but it is clear that they do not. You are trying to prove something from nothing, an impossible task.

We will NEVER get the rabid deniers to accept what they see because of an internal mechanism designed to protect the mind and spirit from paradigm altering realities that would stun the deniers into helpless and confused silence; they simply cannot comprehend the abilities at work here so they deny, simple.There is NO direct evidence whatsoever, NONE, that Criss uses props in some events yet the deniers will cling to their stubborn and unreasoned approach to this no matter what. It is a shame but a reality that there are many people on this earth that will not and cannot accept new realities..it is too disturbing to their colloquial mindset and so denial is automatic.

But what is the use of arguing back and forth when deniers are intractable and see their absolute lack of evidence as nothing more than a minor irritant to them; they simply do not see the abscence of evidence as a bother!! They IMAGINE evidence that is not there and accept its' reality, yet they will not accept the reality that the evidence that does exist !! Amazing!!

Tell you what, lets take a break from the Criss thing for a minute, and let me hear about another person and another feat and see if the deniers can find a way to explain away THIS one: Cyril Takayama altering the consistency of glass, as well as teleporting a card through glass and water. I am curious to see how the deniers will attack this one and I will be amazed if they do not use the exact same spurious silliness that we have heard before to explain it away, but we will see. Please tell me how Cyril breaches the aquarium and retrieves the card if he does not have innate abilities to alter the molecular makeup of substances. Here you go:




OK, lets hear the deniers tell us how Cyril faked this one, this should be interesting!! Maybe he and Criss use the same guy that makes invisible props or convinces witnesses to stay silent forever!! C'mon now, lets hear some intelligent and likley ways that Cyril faked this one.



posted on Aug, 23 2007 @ 10:49 AM
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Oh, and by the way, just for fun, here is another one of Cyril altering the molecular structure of glass; he brings objects through the glass table and shows witnesses how they can also do it with Cyril standing by and not even touching the coin.

The saltshaker is made to come right thru the glass and I defy anyone to come up with an intelligent answer to this one as well; Cyril and Criss and David can all make certain elements, especially glass, lost their structure long enough to allow for solid objects to pass thru them. Compare this one with Criss walking thru a window , or even the steel on an armored car.

Here is where the deniers really scratch their heads and fall back on the old ' camera trricks ' or ' paid witnesses ' to keep their denials alive and in the realm of possibility ( for them ). So here is another great example of a man altering the molecular structure of common elements:



So all you deniers out there, please tell us a LIKELY and INTELLIGENT way that Cyril pulled off a fast one here, if you can without seeming as ridiculous and empty as you do when atempting to explain away Criss events that are obviously inexplicable using mundane excuses. Lets hear it!!



posted on Aug, 23 2007 @ 10:56 AM
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OK, let's summarize the 'gifts' that CA has to have to do his magic.

1. teleport himself - regular magicians use wires or devices;
2. teleport others - regular magicians use wires or devices;
3. dematerialize coins - regular magicians use palming;
4. rematerialize coins - regular magicians use palming;
5. swallow objects and have no adverse effects - regular magicians use palming;
6. point at things and make them move - regular magicians use small spring reels;
7. heal faster than normal - regular magicians use latex skin;
8. he lies and says he has no powers (see the Penn and Teller interview);
9. he uses his 'powers' to gain fame and fortune;
10. he never use his 'gifts' to save children or injured people.

Is this someone you want to emulate and praise?

Let's say that he can control his molecules and teleport or levitate. It's got to be an order of magnitude harder to teleport or levitate someone else since he has to externalize this molecular control.

He does these things an in the process he breaks the laws of physics - iow, there is no evidence of 'rays' or beams or power or energy emitting from him.

In the midst of all this he uses cheap 'tricks' like camera angles to do feats (see the rolling up of the manhole cover).

In addition lots of other 'illusionists' do the same tricks but they use props, achieving the same results.



posted on Aug, 23 2007 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by eyewitness86
Sheer nonsense, all of it. Criss is NOT using fake skin and some string to pull the coin ( the coin signed by a witness) from his arm.

... Just because some stage magician can do a similar feat with NO CLOSE witnesses means nothing; ...


Do you not read? Oh that's right, you have put me on ignore. Can someone show him my quote of seeing the EXACT same trick UP CLOSE twice. Jeez. I am sure that it will still mean nothing to him as I only saw the trick performed from the forearm to the wrist. I can see his reply now in my mind ( I must have the "gift" too) "SEE NO ONE CAN DUPLICATE CA TRICK, they can only do it from the forearm, a cheap imitation."



Cheap tricks that would not fool anyone, much less witnesses right there inches away..do you really think that Criss Angel would stoop so low as to risk his career for some cheap trick with latex skin? Latex can be seen clearly as totally different from real skin,
While it may be rather cheap in cost, using latex props are one of the biggest sources of Close up magic. They can be quite convincing when made to the exact skin tone of the performer. Even when they are off color, if you are not looking for it you will not notice it. Again I won't go into detail but most upclose vanishing and appearing tricks use latex to make it happen.


I Will give you this Cyril's hand through the glass blows CA's away. That to me is the pinnacle of a great trick/Illusion. I still don't know how he does it if it is a uninterrupted shot. The only thing I did see is that after he talks to the guy on the right and goes back to the girl who signed the card, he has palmed the card in his right hand and given it to someone behind the girl. Watch the tape. How they get that card in the tank with no bubbles ect, I am not sure. All in all it is a great trick. The palming is enough evidence for me to rule out phasing. But you believe what you want, I am sure I will not sway you.

It is similar in mechanics to CA's going through the glass, but uses a different way of going through the glass. As I have said it's a cool trick and I haven't figured out the whole thing, that's what makes it so cool. I really don't even want to figure it out, I just did this to make you think of other possibilities. I know you will hate to hear this, but the tank is a prop, not part of the Aquarium collection. Can anyone in Japan go to this Aquarium and try to find this tank in there and post your findings?

To me it is a great trick, he is a great performer. I encourage people to watch his stuff if you haven't, it's a very fresh take on magic. Now if he could do that on one of the Huge tanks that would be awesome.



posted on Aug, 23 2007 @ 11:28 AM
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There are lots of vids on youtube explaining the coin through glass trick. It involves palming the coin, using the natural stickiness of the fingers when they press hard onto the glass and the use of two coins. On the reveal they flop the palmed coin into the other hand revealing the initials on the original coin.

It might be good for 'gift believers' to pick tricks for which there are no examples on youtube next time for their examples.



posted on Aug, 23 2007 @ 11:36 AM
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In response to this:


Originally posted by eyewitness86
Sheer nonsense, all of it. Criss is NOT using fake skin and some string to pull the coin ( the coin signed by a witness) from his arm.

... Just because some stage magician can do a similar feat with NO CLOSE witnesses means nothing; ...


Pavil has requested I post this, as you have him on ignore



On this one I previoulsy mentioned I have seen this trick up front only with the coin moving down the forearm. I saw it up close and it was IDENTICAL to the one CA does, save for the upper arm.

He Had a similar type of armband, cut himself in the same spot, bled just like CA did, not profusely. I was so impressed with it that that I had to see it a second time to figure it out. I even went to a magic store to find out more about it. It is most definetly a trick that can only be done with prior setup by the magician. That you cling to it being his "power" in the face of such testimony is curious.

Do you not believe I saw the exact same trick two times? The only difference is that CA takes it a step further by doing the whole arm but he has the luxury of doing a "street" performance and then leaving. Most magicians have to do their whole "show" and the full arm latex piece doesn't hold up well and is hot.


This is from about 5 or so posts up the page.



posted on Aug, 23 2007 @ 11:49 AM
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Thank you for posting that. Just to be clear, this was not a stage show, it was tableside magic at a restaurant/bar. It was done right in front of me at a table and done very well.



posted on Aug, 23 2007 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by kickass
Eyewitness86,
I am rather baffled about your ability to skip over all - quite valid - inputs on how the magic community works, how illusionists sell and buy both props and the performance rights for a trick. etc. You happily skip over ATS-people that tell you that they have seen other magicans and illusionists perform similar tricks but you just brush these arguments off.




Bah, I was making the same posts 500 of them ago. It will not work even if Criss came up and showed these people his tricks personally. They would just say he wants to keep his real power secret.



posted on Aug, 23 2007 @ 12:17 PM
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NO replies of consequence yet..There is NO WAY that anyone PALMED the coin when the ladies were doing all of the holding..and no one has mentioned any ways that the salt shaker could have been done..alluding to some show you saw is NOT evidence or proof. Give us some INTELLIGENT and LIKELY answers please. Simply saying that there are lots of ways is NOT an answer.

Show us a video of anyone else doing this using props please. Oh, you cannot? Wonder why? If you did not watch the videos closely, you surely missed the evidence there. LOOK AGAIN. There is NO WAY that Cyril palmed anything, it is clear. The lady that was HOLDING the saltshaker under the table was stunned when Cyril grabbed it and held it up from the TOP of the table..EXPLAIN THAT. Of course you cannot so all we will hear is tales about some alleged event you say you saw that had NOTHING to do with this event; where are the other people, on video, that can do the same thing.

Where are the detailed comments I asked for? Why has no one tried to give us a reason for the glass breaching and card retrieval ? Did Cyril PALM something in the aquarium also? HOW did Cyril affect the coin that the two women were holding? He did not touch the coin and at the end the coin was lodged in the glass itself!! Explain that please, intelligently if possible. Do not mention side tracks but the exact questions I just asked please.

HOW did Cyril breach the glass aquarium and get the card back? How did Cyril get the salt shaker thru the glass? It is clear and apparent that we saw exactly what happened and that there is NO way that Cyril could have faked it. But instead if a rational and cohesive explanation, all we get is some second hand story that may or may not be true or valid, and NO offers of a really possible way that what we are seeing is in fact faked.

C'mon now, deniers, surely you can do better than this. How about spelling out for us exactly HOW Cyril pulled this off. Both videos. And while you are at it, please explain to us ignorant and gullible believers why no one else has demonstrated the same feats on video anywhere. Find the video please , if you can , of anyone performing the same event under similar conditions and with the same results. People other than the performer holding the objects, the object left incorporated into the very glass on the table; also please a likely way that Cyril reached his arm into the aquarium and back out and yet there is NO evidence of any portholes, glass windows or any other way that could explain what is seen.

I am waiting for even ONE valid and convincing reply, so far none have been offered. Tell us HOW it likely was really done if what is apparent is not the case in reality. Specifically, not in general. Specific. If you can. So far all the deniers can come up with is an empty bag of maybe's and a lot of hope that we will accept suppositions as proofs. Lets hear it!!



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