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One Anonymous Author and The Epoch Times Vs. The Chinese Communist Party

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posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 11:22 AM
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Duzey, Thanks for your reply. I browse some parts of "Zhuan Falun", English Version 2003. I have to say that there is no big difference between Chinese version and English Version of this book, but I am still puzzled why FLGers trust him if they have read the book carefully. Let us see Section I Truly Guiding People Up to High Levels, Chapter I of "Zhuan Falun", Li said:

"I’m not going to talk about doing healing here. We don’t do healing. But if you want to do true cultivation, and you’ve come here with an ailing body, then you can’t cultivate yet. So I have to purify your body. I only purify the body for people who’ve truly come here to learn the practice, who truly come to learn the Law."
...
"Some people think that healing people, or helping them get healthy and fit, is doing a good thing. But the way I see it, they haven’t really healed anything."
...
"So why is it okay to do that for cultivators, then? Because nobody is more precious than a cultivator. He wants to cultivate, and that’s the most precious thought."

In my unstanding, Li said, if you trust him and become a cultivator, he will heal your body if you have illness. That's ridiculous.
Absoultuely, "Zheng, Shan and Reng" or "Truthfulness, Compassion, or Forberance" is a good thing and I think this is the main impression of FLG for most of believers in North America, but in China, FLG was seemed as a Qigong or Religion, that the practicers would become healthier and longlive, not only mentally, but physically.
Why we trust God, because God sacrified himself, suffered for us, and save our soul for Christian, but the Bible never says Christ will cure your illness if you become a Christian while Li said HE COULD.

Again for human rights, we have a lot of problems during the process of urbanization and industrialization, workers lost their jobs, farmers lost their land and they became neglected class and lost their voice on media. Though most of the bad news cannot be read on newspaper because of censorship, they can be discussed freely in many forums( to some extent). China is changing, though sometimes I think it is not faster enough, particularly in administration system. CCP said they want to keep the balance between stability and development for a nation having 1.3 billion people.




posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 11:15 PM
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Do you all know of any articles or websites that have opinions and polls about what people, in America in particular, think of China and it's current status and future status? We are facing a type of threat different from anything we've expected to see: ourselves.

Despite the importance of China's rise in the world, it's shocking to me that it's still not of "priority knowledge" status as other issues (terrorism, religion, U.S. politics, etc.) are.



posted on Jul, 31 2005 @ 11:56 PM
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Well, I certainly can't speak for Falun Gong members or Westerners on a whole, so I will give you my personal interpretations and thought on this. So take this for what it is, one persons opinion. And I warn you in advance, when I give my opinion I tend to be long-winded.


First, because you have made it quite clear you are a Christian, I will give you a few personal details that might help you understand where I am coming from with this. My religious beliefs are not up for debate, and normally not something I even talk about here. I tend to avoid it at all costs. This is not so much directed at you, everex605, but to anyone else who is reading this thread and may feel the need to save me, or explain to me why I am dead wrong. I am perfectly capable of re-evalutating and do quite often.


When I was growing up, the over-riding principle that was taught to me was Matthew 7:1 - 7:27. Because Matthew must be taken in it's entirety to be applied. I will never judge another person for what they believe, and I will never tell someone their beliefs are wrong. That is not my place. I believe that God is wise enough to know that humans can't agree on anything and has revealed himself to each group in the way they could best understand. It is not how you know him, merely that you do, and each person follows a different path, the route not as important as the final destination and the way you behaved getting there.

Whether a person believes in Heaven or reincarnation is not a problem for me; they believe that they have a spiritual self and that their actions determine what will happen to them after they die, and they live their life accordingly. And if they believe in neither, well that is their choice. A person must find this in themselves, it can't be forced.

So instead of judging Falun Gong by the actions of Li and the beliefs that he teaches, I look at 'the fruit of the tree'. And, in my opinion, Falun Gong is 'good fruit'. Zheng, Shan and Reng.

I also believe that you can influence your health and your body through meditation and proper thought. For example, stress has been proven to be very bad for your health, and can make you ill. And that brings me to the portions you have quoted.


Originally posted by everex605
"I’m not going to talk about doing healing here. We don’t do healing. But if you want to do true cultivation, and you’ve come here with an ailing body, then you can’t cultivate yet. So I have to purify your body. I only purify the body for people who’ve truly come here to learn the practice, who truly come to learn the Law."

I'm pretty sure he is talking about manipulating Chi or energies at this point. Not for the sake of healing the body alone but healing the spiritual self, as well. If you are not wanting to learn the full practice and truly change your way of life, you won't be healed. Which ties in with the next quote:



"Some people think that healing people, or helping them get healthy and fit, is doing a good thing. But the way I see it, they haven’t really healed anything."

To me this means that Li feels that the spiritual side is more important than physical health. If you have a healthy spirit, than it will follow that you have a healthy body. Without a healthy spirit, good health is meaningless.



"So why is it okay to do that for cultivators, then? Because nobody is more precious than a cultivator. He wants to cultivate, and that’s the most precious thought."

This is fairly self-explanatory, in my opinion. If you truly want to change your life and embrace the way, you will be 'healed' of your negative energy, because you have proven that you truly do have a good spirit.



In my unstanding, Li said, if you trust him and become a cultivator, he will heal your body if you have illness. That's ridiculous.

Again, I will not judge or tell them they are wrong. I would have a difficult time believing that he has the ablility to cure something like a brain tumor. But I believe he is talking about manipulating your Chi/energies.

I didn't address the part that follows, because I think I have explained where I am coming from on that.



Again for human rights, we have a lot of problems during the process of urbanization and industrialization, workers lost their jobs, farmers lost their land and they became neglected class and lost their voice on media. Though most of the bad news cannot be read on newspaper because of censorship, they can be discussed freely in many forums( to some extent).

The censorship is only a smaller thing in the bigger picture. The problem is that there are atrocities going on that they censor. Forced labour, re-education and religious persecution. So even if it can be discussed, in a limited manner, the problem is that you have these things to talk about.

I realize it must be very difficult to govern a nation with such an enormous population, but there must be a better way of doing it, while allowing the people to have basic human rights.

[edit on 1-8-2005 by Duzey]



posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 01:42 AM
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Excellent post, Duzey. You're smart, but you also seem like a very genuine person to top it off. I promised you a Way Above vote as soon as I got it working again, so here it is.







posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 03:03 AM
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Ummm, that's a little bright, don't you think?


Congratulations, your shiny medal is well deserved, you manly-man you.


And thanks, my mom brought me up right, so the credit goes to her...



posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 03:52 AM
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The Epoch Times has reported that Canada has another Chinese defector. Yang Jianhua, who worked as a hairdresser at the Chinese Embassy in Ottawa, has defected with his family.



Sources disclose that on July 15, Yang Jianhua, a staff from the Chinese Embassy in Ottawa walked out of the Embassy with his wife and son. Now the Chinese Embassy is searching for him and suspects that he and his family are hiding in an eastern Canada city. Meanwhile, the Chinese Embassy is tightening its control over other Embassy staff.

The news source discloses that Yang Jianhua is 33 years old. He came to the Chinese Embassy in Ottawa in the spring 2004 and worked as a hairdresser for the Embassy. Last month, his wife and son came to Canada to visit him. Yang grasped the opportunity, drove out of the Chinese Embassy and fled with his wife and son on July 15. They left behind their passports when they fled the Embassy, since the passports had to be surrendered to the Embassy when relatives visit.

The recent defector Chen Yonglin, who used to be the top secretary of the Chinese Consulate in Sydney, Australia, exposed that many Chinese personnel stationed abroad are dissatisfied with the Chinese Communist system and want to defect. When Mr. Chen was granted the permanent protection visa, the current Chinese Ambassador to Australia, Fu Ying, warned the Australian government that granting the permanent protection visa is equivalent to opening the door for Chinese officials to flee. Fu warned that this could cause a large number of Chinese officials to defect, since they will defect to Western societies once they have the opportunity.

I see no reason why this man and his family shouldn't be granted refugee status. I'm sure the CCP will start pressuring our government to send him back quickly enough. I hope we follow the example Australia set with Chen Yonglin.

Resignation total: 3,364,891



posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 06:08 AM
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Hey hey, haven't being back for ages.

I had exams and will have thesis/masters soon so probably can't go here that often, though i still waste ridiculous amounts of time on the net.

Anyway, i just want to make the point that no matter what you think about FLG, you should go out and talk to the the 99.99% of ethnic chinese people that are non-FLG and ask for there opinions.

Personally, i think FLG is a cult, and the west obviousely likes it because its anti-ccp. If FLG propped up in Japan after the sarin gas attacks, i doubt it would've received the same type or level of publicity in the west.

One thing i think people should be careful of is to constantly back FLG and assume that all the figures that they prop out are correct. I can tell you now that within the chinese community, FLG has little to 0 credibility and certainly none in China, so take the 3 million resignations with a grain of salt.

Some interesting things that people outside the Chinese community might not know is the following;

1) Chen Yonglin claimed that China "kidnapped" Lan pu's son from Australia to force his dad to go back to China, the Australian securities department recently called those claims "groundless" after conducting interviews with Lan Pu's son who is still in australia.

2) Most people that go abroad and join FLG are now doing so for VISA purposes, just like the aftermath of 6/11, again, this is common knowledge in the Chinese community. (I know people who can get anyone a visa for around $20,000 Australian dollars, provided your Chinese and willing to claim to be FLG)

The most important point i would like to put is that Supporting groups like FLG and crying for INSTANT DEMOCRACY might be popular in the west, the irony is that it does nothing to help Chinese people realise democracy. In fact, it does the exact opposite, this is not because of "brainwashing" by the CCP. The chinese people are smart enough to disregard propaganda from truth, it is quite easy since the CCP's propaganda on news is easily distingushable.

HOWEVER, the Chinese people are proud and do value stability, China (nationalism) and economic growth. Most chinese people detest the FLG not because of they belief but because of the fact that they are supported by a lot of red-neck neo-cons which the Chinese know arn't going to be looking out for they interests.

I mean, does Senator Schumer and Rep Tancredo actually want whats better for the Chinese people?

If you people really want to press for democratic change, you have to do it by convincing the Chinese people, the silent majority which currently regards the CCP as the lesser of 2 evils. If you fail to do that and continue on by screaming loudly on FLG, the CCP will continue to enjoy the support of the vast majority of chinese people, and the vast majority of overseas chinese people.

P.S - on the hairdresser thats claiming asylem in canada, c'mon, his obviously just wants a visa lol, i mean, thats pretty damn obvious to see isn't it.


P.P.S - It is interesting that some people have taken the Epoch Times (on forums like Japantoday) to be the word of god, i'am not exaggerating, some believe that it is more credible then;
1) Forbes on economic matters
2) NYTimes and Washington Post on International news
3) South Morning China Post on Chinese news

Also, the typical reply to anyone defending China on western forums seems now to be "you are a CCP trained spy".

The debate usually ends in insults and nothing actually gets debated. I sometimes wonder whether forums actually amplify or converge differences in opinion. I'am leaning towards the former.

[edit on 1-8-2005 by rapier28]



posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 09:50 AM
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I would like to post something from another forum (Japantoday) here.


zhudolf zitler
My summation of FLG is that it is another Utopian Movement. However, Utopia is generally a bankrupted dream of the past. The failure of Communism and Republicanism forever shattered any idealism that was left in the Chinese people. They need a time of recovery to regain any sense of Idealism.

Also, whatever Li Hong Zhi preached, his teaching is not reaching the local level. Many of his disciples are involved in scandals and even crimes at the local level. A common scene in China where the Central authority have policies, local level have counter policies. The same applies to FLG as local level disciples abused their position for their own profit in China.

And many intellectuals are having problems with the teaching of Li Hong Zhi that he is misleading the people and bringing another age of ignorance by introduction of his own definition of universe. Many people in China don't have access to education and many of them are more likely to believe Li Hong Zhi created the Universe rather than learning the theory of Einstein or Newton.

Religion, while not as important in China when comparing to the West, nonetheless presented important lessons in history. The Huang Jing Rebellion of Late Han, Huang Chao Rebellion of Late Tang, Fan La of North Song, Hong Jing Army of Late Yuan, and the White Lotus Society and Tai Ping Tien Guo of Late Ching were all religions lead by peasants that eventually turned into massive rebellions that rampaged through out China. (To no one's surprise, historical documents all recorded that they preach some form of "Truth", "Forbearance", and "Tolerance" and later evolved into genocidal rampages or degeneration.) In addition, the massive propaganda effort to counter Communist propaganda is considered a formal declaration of war on the CCP.

Inherently, the difference between CCP and traditional Chinese dynasty is that CCP's ideology is already bankrupted and it can't return to the traditional concept lay out by COnfuscius. In that respect, Li Hong Zhi's ideology was regarded as a potential competition and hence must be eliminated.

My Grandfather practice a non-FLG qigong. But the consensus in the family is that qigong these days are not genuine considering how many charlattans with bankrupted morality are out there these days.

Either way, i do not feel comfortable that China, after so many years of struggle for modern society and science, would one day fell under the control of FLG and all its advancement roll back due to the superstitions preached. And the inherent belief that all religion, including those preached by the CCP, are poison to people's mind. And i certainly do not want 1.3 billion people bowing before yet another false god.


He really sums up how the majority of Chinese people feel and why gratutious western support for FLG is losing the battle for the hearts and minds of the Chinese people in general.

Again, let me point out the hyprocrisy of this whole situation. The EpochTimes is probably the most biased, ideological paper ever published. You never find anything in it thats anti-falungong or pro-CCP. At least in Xinhua, critical reports of lower ranking officials and corruption is discussed. On forums like Chinadaily, censorship is nothing like it was even 1 year ago, just go there and take a look inside the Chinadaily forum at the negative topics, even on the CCP that isn't censored.

Yet 120 members of the American congress support the Falungong Epoch Times which is more radical and extreme then Xinhua or even the People's Daily. I simply do not understand the reasoning.

The only conclusion that many Chinese can draw is that the west is hyprocritical and support for the CCP grows even more.

Good work!


[edit on 1-8-2005 by rapier28]



posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 02:18 PM
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Hello rapier28, it's been quiet on this thread while you were gone...



Originally posted by rapier28
Anyway, i just want to make the point that no matter what you think about FLG, you should go out and talk to the the 99.99% of ethnic chinese people that are non-FLG and ask for there opinions.

I am always interested in other people's opinions, but to use an old cliche - If all your friends jumped off the bridge, would you do it? I prefer to come to my own conclusions; after all, other people's opinions are just that, their opinions. If there is anyone who can give me a compelling reason that the torture, persecution, forced labour and re-education camps are a good thing; please, fill me in.



Personally, i think FLG is a cult, and the west obviousely likes it because its anti-ccp. If FLG propped up in Japan after the sarin gas attacks, i doubt it would've received the same type or level of publicity in the west.

My support has nothing to do with them being anti-CCP and everything to do with the fact that the CCP is so anti-Falun Gong that they feel the need to outlaw and persecute them, even outside the borders of China. The Japan thing was a nice touch, but Falun Gong forbids violence. If they promoted killing, I doubt very much they would receive the same level of support in the West. They certainly wouldn't have gained mine.



One thing i think people should be careful of is to constantly back FLG and assume that all the figures that they prop out are correct. I can tell you now that within the chinese community, FLG has little to 0 credibility and certainly none in China, so take the 3 million resignations with a grain of salt.

I know that, and have mentioned previously in the thread my hope that some of the larger Western media would investigate these claims. They have resources much larger than I do.



1) Chen Yonglin claimed that China "kidnapped" Lan pu's son from Australia to force his dad to go back to China, the Australian securities department recently called those claims "groundless" after conducting interviews with Lan Pu's son who is still in australia.

That is good. Accusations such as this one, and the charges that are currently being contemplated by the authorities in Canada for the distribution of hate literature, would be apalling abuses of the hospitality of the host country. It would be, in fact, shameful.



2) Most people that go abroad and join FLG are now doing so for VISA purposes, just like the aftermath of 6/11, again, this is common knowledge in the Chinese community. (I know people who can get anyone a visa for around $20,000 Australian dollars, provided your Chinese and willing to claim to be FLG)

It would be very simple for the CCP to fix this. Just stop persecuting them, and they will no longer be covered by the refugee system.



HOWEVER, the Chinese people are proud and do value stability, China (nationalism) and economic growth. Most chinese people detest the FLG not because of they belief but because of the fact that they are supported by a lot of red-neck neo-cons which the Chinese know arn't going to be looking out for they interests.

So let me get this straight, most Chinese people support the torture, persecution, forced labour and re-education camps because they dislike red-neck neo-cons. How does that make any sense at all?

Is it an honourable act to take out your frustrations with someone you can't get to on one who can't protect themselves, due to religious beliefs? It truly makes me sad that you cannot see how much the CCP has corrupted the beautiful, proud, honourable spirit of the people of China.




I mean, does Senator Schumer and Rep Tancredo actually want whats better for the Chinese people?

I don't know, I can't speak for them, and unless they are members, nobody here can. Anyways, I don't have any votes in the US, so they don't represent me in any way.



If you fail to do that and continue on by screaming loudly on FLG, the CCP will continue to enjoy the support of the vast majority of chinese people, and the vast majority of overseas chinese people.

Within this thread I have oberved that the Chinese posters bring up Falun Gong more often than the 'Westerners'. I have only addressed the questions raised and so I don't feel this statement applies to me.



P.S - on the hairdresser thats claiming asylem in canada, c'mon, his obviously just wants a visa lol, i mean, thats pretty damn obvious to see isn't it.

Why wouldn't he? This is a beautiful country without labour camps. Always a positive when seeking to relocate.




The debate usually ends in insults and nothing actually gets debated. I sometimes wonder whether forums actually amplify or converge differences in opinion. I'am leaning towards the former.

I think we have found something we both agree on. Too often, that has also been my experience at ATS. I wouldn't want that to happen to this thread, because I don't think it has come even close.

So far, I am quite enjoying everex605's posts. They are reasoned, well thought out, and while he is against Falun Gong, he has been able to explain why. And his reason was not 'because Westerners support them'.

As for your anti-west diatribe in your next post, again, I am not American. I live in a country where medical and educational needs are provided by the state. I do not have the knee-jerk 'commies are evil' reaction that can be found in some of the American population. But they are entitled to their opinion and by taking out your frustrations with them on innocents, you are giving them the very ammunition which they use against communism.

It is a vicious cycle, and it won't stop until the torture stops. Again, the issue is not whether or not it can be discussed within China, but that it happens at all.

[edit on 1-8-2005 by Duzey]



posted on Aug, 1 2005 @ 09:28 PM
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Ok, I will try to answer somethings here but not in cut and paste cause it takes too long.

Firstly, the torture claims by FLG, i believe, are exaggerated, some of they "Cartoons" of torture on they website can be plugged off any Chinese civil war novel. The reason why i say its exaggerated because the CCP does not torture in the conventional sense, this is what separates them from the KMT during the civil war.

The CCP seeks to win over the hearts and minds (brainwash) and will make you watch videos, for example, on solar eclipses to combat the FLG teaching that the eclipses are made by Li HongZhi (creator of the universe, blah blah).

Do i think that the CCP handled the FLG issue well?

NO.

They handled it in the kneejerk reaction that upped the appeal for FLG across the world which is quite ironic. Chinese people in general were symphathetic to FLG at the start around 1998, but that quickly changed as they politisized they campaign. Instead of it being FLG Humanrights, it has being FLG China.

This is the second irony, wiht FLG attracting all the attention in the west, it has lost its appeal and support amound ethnic chinese communities across the world. We see they antics and think;

"Hang on, mabye the CCP was right and the end justifies the means".

This is the conumdrum for the FLG and all Chinese dissidents before them (from 6/11). By politicizing they campaign and for example, calling for boycotts on Chinese products etc (like some of the 6/11 protestors), they become hated by the Chinese people. For example, all the CCP has to say is that LOOK, they working with the American Republicans on denigrating China. The CCP is a very savvy party, it can survive in a democracy without any problems what so ever, it knows all the tricks of being a political party in a democracy with the advantage that it is not in a democracy.


The FLG's behaviour has being bizarre as well. On the Chinese Epoch Times, it recently said things akin to;

"Deities will rise up and strike down the CCP."

Those kind of things make the ordinary people go, hang on, they lunatics and need to be "re-educated". I'am pretty sure those kind of things don't make it out to the english version of the paper, the FLG are quite smart in segregating they utopian chinese comments to the Chinese paper and so largely refrain from idiocy in the english version.

Anyway, i was just trying to explain the mindset of the other side, the mindset is simple, even critics of the CCP believe FLG to be the greater of the 2 evils, it preaches utopian values that were not dissimilar to the CCP in the civil war and takes advantage of the peasants because they lack education.

They should be heavier western scrutiny of the FLG, not based on hatred of the CCP. For example, many westerners in HK and Japan actually believe that the FLG is a dangerous cult because they've being through it all in Japan. The Sarin gas cult never did anything bad until investigations were started by the Japanese governments.

Cults all want one thing, to be left alone to do whatever they want. However, this contravenes a healthy society.

P.S i have nothing against the hairdresser, smart guy taking advantage of a situation to make a better life for himself.

P.P.S
connection of FLG to Epoch Times through an expert


There does appear to be, at the very least, an intimate association between these groups and the FLG. In early 2004, Li Hongzhi, the founder and spiritual leader of the group, gave his one and only interview since the group was banned to the NTDTV. According to a report in the Far Eastern Economic Review, prominent FLG spokespeople serve as a director for NTDTV and on the board of The Epoch Times; both organizations give the FLG prominent coverage. In addition, both organizations are staffed by volunteers, often FLG followers, whose main jobs are unrelated to journalism.


www.rickross.com...

The original rick ross page on occults.

www.rickross.com...

[edit on 1-8-2005 by rapier28]



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 12:05 AM
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An anti-FLG website in US

xys.3322.org...

Mostly in Chinese, but some in English.



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 12:33 AM
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Duzey,

I will try to come back to this thread but i really need to cut back on my message boards since uni is really catching up with me. I will try to visit once in a while but i won't be able to reply that quickly.



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 02:09 AM
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I'll take the option of cut and paste. I find it helps me organize my thoughts. Large quotes so nobody is left out of the conversation.


Originally posted by rapier28
Firstly, the torture claims by FLG, i believe, are exaggerated, some of they "Cartoons" of torture on they website can be plugged off any Chinese civil war novel. The reason why i say its exaggerated because the CCP does not torture in the conventional sense, this is what separates them from the KMT during the civil war.

To me, there is a big difference between exaggerated and non-existent. It would please me greatly if these kinds of things weren't happening in China. Unfortunately, Falun Gong and the Epoch Times are not the only two groups making these claims. Groups with far more credibility worldwide have issued their reports on the previous year in China.

Let's take a look at Amnesty International's 2004 overview of China.



There was progress towards reform in some areas, but this failed to have a significant impact on serious and widespread human rights violations perpetrated across the country. Tens of thousands of people continued to be detained or imprisoned in violation of their fundamental human rights and were at high risk of torture or ill-treatment. Thousands of people were sentenced to death or executed, many after unfair trials. Public protests increased against forcible evictions and land requisition without adequate compensation. China continued to use the global "war on terrorism" to justify its crackdown on the Uighur community in Xinjiang. Freedom of expression and religion continued to be severely restricted in Tibet and other Tibetan areas of China.
.....

Torture and ill-treatment continued to be reported in a wide variety of state institutions despite the introduction of several new regulations aimed at curbing the practice. Common methods included kicking, beating, electric shocks, suspension by the arms, shackling in painful positions, and sleep and food deprivation. Political interference in the rule of law, restricted access to the outside world for detainees, and a failure to establish effective mechanisms for complaint and investigation continued to be key factors allowing the practice to flourish.

The authorities officially announced an intention to reform "Re-education through Labour", a system of administrative detention used to detain hundreds of thousands of people for up to four years without charge or trial. However, the exact nature and scope of reform remained unclear.

People accused of political or criminal offences continued to be denied due process. Detainees' access to lawyers and family members continued to be severely restricted and trials fell far short of international fair trial standards. Those charged with offences related to "state secrets" or "terrorism" had their legal rights restricted and were tried in camera.
In October, Falun Gong organizations abroad publicized video footage of

Wang Xia, a woman who had recently been released from prison in Hohhot, Inner Mongolia where she had served two years of a seven-year sentence for distributing materials promoting Falun Gong. She appeared emaciated and her body bore several scars. She had reportedly been tied to a bed, hung up, beaten, injected with unknown substances and shocked with electric batons after going on hunger strikes to protest against her detention.

North Korean asylum-seekers

Hundreds, possibly thousands, of North Korean asylum-seekers in north-east China were arrested and forcibly returned during the year. China continued to deny North Koreans access to any refugee determination procedures despite evidence that many had a genuine claim to asylum and in breach of the UN Refugee Convention to which China is a state party.

Those assisting North Korean asylum-seekers, including members of foreign aid and religious organizations, ethnic Korean Chinese nationals, and journalists attempting to raise awareness of their plight, were detained for interrogation, and some were charged and sentenced to prison terms.
.........

Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region (XUAR)

The authorities continued to use the "global war on terror" to justify harsh repression in Xinjiang, resulting in serious human rights violations against the ethnic Uighur community. The authorities continued to make little distinction between acts of violence and acts of passive resistance. Repression resulted in the closure of unofficial mosques, arrests of imams, restrictions on the use of the Uighur language and the banning of certain Uighur books and journals.

Arrests of so-called "separatists, terrorists and religious extremists" continued and thousands of political prisoners, including prisoners of conscience, remained in prison. Many of those charged with "separatist" or "terrorist" offences were reportedly sentenced to death and executed. Uighur activists attempting to pass information abroad about the extent of the crackdown were at risk of arbitrary detention and imprisonment.

China continued to use "counter-terrorism" as a means to strengthen its political and economic ties with neighbouring states. Uighurs who had fled to Central Asia, Pakistan, Nepal and other states, including asylum-seekers and refugees, remained at serious risk of forcible return to China. China continued to put pressure on the USA to return
22 Uighurs held in the US detention camp in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. In June, the US authorities stated that the Uighurs would not be returned to China due to fears that they would be tortured or executed.

Or we could look at one of Human Rights Watch's reports on China entitled Freedom of Thought, Conscience, Religion, and Belief.



Article 36 of the Chinese constitution asserts that all Chinese citizens enjoy freedom of religious belief, but the devil is in the details. The article applies only to the five religions officially recognized in China. It does not include other belief systems, nor does it include people who identify themselves as belonging to one of the recognized religions, but organize outside state control and are, thus, outlaws. A number of Catholic and Protestant groups fall outside the official state designation. Should the groups decide to abide by the regulations limiting their independence the possibility of shedding their illegal status exists. Such an option is not open to those the government classifies as "cults."
.....

Just two days ago, on July 19, 2005, the Chairman of the TAR, Qangba Puncog, stated that Beijing will choose the next Dalai Lama, a critical example of blatant interference with religious belief and practice.

In addition, Chinese authorities have interfered with scholarly studies of Buddhism and the transmission of Buddhist practices to an upcoming generation of students and would-be scholars and monks. Most critically, in many areas there are few, if any, master scholars and teachers, and there are restrictions on inviting monks from other areas to give teachings. In at least two areas, monks cannot go on pilgrimages outside their own region for longer than five days. As one monk reported, "The monastery is helpless, as it is the order from higher authorities." University and public school students have told Human Rights Watch that they have barred from observing rituals and holidays, and in some cases threatened with expulsion.

The situation is much the same for the predominantly Muslim Uighur people in Xinjiang province. China limits religious practice; methodically campaigns to re-educate religious leaders; restricts publication of Uighur literature; discourages displays of religious attire or appearance, such as beards or veils, for those Uighurs holding government jobs or seeking university admittance; regulates the use of written and spoken Uighur; and discourages traditional celebratory occasions. In April 2005, Human Rights Watch released Devastating Blows: Religious Repression of Uighurs in Xinjiang, a report based on firsthand accounts and undisclosed government and Party documents. It shows beyond a doubt that religious and cultural policy in Xinjiang, as in Tibet, is carefully and deliberately crafted at the highest Party and government levels. Since the events of September 11, 2001, Beijing has suggested that its crackdown in Xinjiang is part of the "global war on terror," erasing the distinction between small pro-independence groups who in the past espoused violence and vocal but peaceful activists.

The Chinese government also imposes the same strict limits on religious observance in Inner Mongolia, another ethnic region with a history of Chinese attempts to destroy a distinctive culture. Hada, a Mongolian who tried peacefully to lead a movement to preserve that culture is now in the tenth year of a fifteen-year prison sentence.

Against this backdrop of religious intolerance, Falungong, which refers to itself as a spiritual organization, and certain Protestant groups have fared even worse. In 1999, after listing the characteristics of so-called heretical cults, the Chinese government insisted that Falungong met the definition. The government held that Falungong represented a danger to its members and a threat to the stability of the state and subjected its leaders to criminal sanctions. Members unwilling to recant after re-education were to face trials heavily influenced, if not dictated, by Party and government authorities. The government even went so far as to forbid law firms from acting as consultants or as counsel to practitioners without first obtaining what amounted to government permission.

The ex post facto rulings cleared the way for the Ministry of Public Security and police at the provincial and local levels to arrest, detain and interrogate Falungong members and members of other so-called cults and unregistered groups. The police–– along with other agencies authorized to send people to re-education through labor camps for up to three years without trial or other judicial input–– have sent thousands of Falungong members to labor camps for periods ranging from days to years. Police often prefer re-education through labor to criminal prosecution, for a variety of reasons: for example, because evidence necessary for a judicial conviction is hard to come by or because, as in the case of Falungong, the numbers were considerable and the Party determined to quickly stamp out the perceived threat to its authority. There was hardly any time for trials, even truncated ones that came nowhere near complying with international standards of openness and fairness. In other cases, Falungong members have been forcefully sent to psychiatric institutions.

Or China's description on their list of countries that practice torture in their criminal justice system.



Torture is common in China's criminal justice system. Recent HRW research suggests that abuses are particularly likely in Tibet and Xinjiang. In Tibet, authorities have subjected religious figures and activists to mistreatment in detention.

In Xinjiang, populated mostly by Muslim Uighurs, China has cracked down on religious practitioners and activists and subjected them to abuse in prisons and "re-education through labor" camps—some have also been executed. Detainees have reported beatings with shackles, electric shocks, and being kicked to the point of unconsciousness.

The CCP continues to persecute any religion who does not worship exactly like the CCP wants; and people of all religions are being denied their basic human rights, not just Falun Gong. By limiting the discussion of human rights in China to Falun Gong, you don't see the whole picture.

As you mention later in your post, the CCP is a very savvy organization and very skilled at what they do. So skilled in fact, that they have managed to convince the Chinese people that the revolution is over, when that is far from the truth. The purges have not ended.



They handled it in the kneejerk reaction that upped the appeal for FLG across the world which is quite ironic.

Exactly. But now they have the attention of the West, and nothing the CCP does can change that. The only way to get people to stop talking about it is for the CCP to stop persecuting people for their religious beliefs.



Chinese people in general were symphathetic to FLG at the start around 1998, but that quickly changed as they politisized they campaign. Instead of it being FLG Humanrights, it has being FLG China.

Could you maybe elaborate on this? I know that Falun Gong was perfectly OK to practice up until 1999, and then they held a silent, peaceful protest and were outlawed within two months. Then the persecution of Falun Gong members began. I would like to hear what events and actions Falun Gong used to politicize the movement, before the banning.



"Hang on, mabye the CCP was right and the end justifies the means".

Is tripping a blind man something to be proud of? Or maybe making jokes about a deaf person while standing behind them? Or maybe we could just tie some puppies to a fence and use them for target practice? Because it all amounts to the same thing; hurting someone/something that can't defend themselves, just because we can.

Is this truly how the Chinese people want the CCP to represent them to the world?



The CCP is a very savvy party, it can survive in a democracy without any problems what so ever, it knows all the tricks of being a political party in a democracy with the advantage that it is not in a democracy.

Again we agree. The CCP is extremely politically savvy, and has more lives than a cat.

If they are truly the voice of the people of China, and would have no problem winning in a democratic environment, why not then begin to move in that direction? It wouldn't have to be overnight, but they could be moving in that direction much more quickly than they are now.

To change China over to a democracy, and continue to govern the country while allowing people basic human rights, freedom of expression and freedom of religion would effectively wipe out every impediment to China's admittance to every organization they wanted, and they could begin to lobby for the removal of trade barriers. Without these complaints against the CCP, it would be very hard to deny China's requests.



Cults all want one thing, to be left alone to do whatever they want. However, this contravenes a healthy society.

If someone wants to be left alone, and are doing no harm, I don't see why I shouldn't respect their wishes. Lack of respect for others also goes against healthy society.



P.P.S
connection of FLG to Epoch Times through an expert

I'll go you one better than that. As far as I know, the owner of the newspaper is a Falun Gong practitioner. I told you that I would take into account your opinions when we talked about this before, and I have.

But I have already acknowledged that the paper has a pro-Falun Gong slant. And the owner of the paper is entitled to do that. I don't think that means that we should discard everything they say out of hand. China is just one of the many topics they cover, and they are very open about the support for Falun Gong. Anyone who has read any of the quotes I have posted from the paper has already figured out that opposing the persecution of Falun Gong is something they are active in. They are not trying to deceive anyone about their leanings.

...........

I understand that sometimes Real Life gets in the way of the really important things, like posting on ATS. I look forward to reading your reply when you are able to post one.

Let's just cut right to the productive conversation next time though, shall we?




[edit on 2-8-2005 by Duzey]



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 03:57 AM
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Welcome back rapier. I miss our debates.


So on one hand you have an organization that has slaughtered, caused the deaths of, and imprisoned millions of its own people simply because they oppose the corruption and violence of same, because they call for reform, because they seek the granting of some basic freedoms; an organization whose principal means of retaining power has always been the obfuscation of truth, the concentration of power and wealth in the hands of the greedy, tyrannical few, and the bloody suppression of opposition.

On the other hand you have an organization whose values are peace, harmony, spirituality and tolerance; an organization which has never slaughtered, imprisoned or oppressed anybody; an organization whose sole means of resistance against oppression has been peaceful protest and non-violent opposition the likes of which Gandhi would be proud; an organization whose sole crimes are dubious stories of old ladies refusing medical treatment for a broken leg . BTW, it's amazing how often I hear this same, manufactured story of the old lady with the broken leg bandied around, and it's amazing how everyone who tells the story states that she is their uncles mother's sister. This little old lady either gets around and has a million nieces and nephews, or China has been hit by an epidemic of old ladies breaking their legs. They should get the W.H.O. in to investigate this, if only for the sake of the old ladies and their weak-boned legs. Got milk??

But still, we're expected to trust, to believe, and to excuse the actions of the former organization, which has proven its barbarism and lack of respect for human life and the life of its citizens for half a century, while we should accept the blatant demonisation of and condemn the latter. By what scale does one measure right and wrong? Obviously many here judge it by Xin Hua and the CCP's scales. Please, somebody list for the me the heinous crimes that FLG has committed that they should deserve such violent and inhumane treatment. Show me the people they have killed, the money they have stolen from China as a group, the people they have imprisoned, the people they have tortured. As far as I can tell, their only crime was to resist the CCP's mandate that they disband and renounce their beliefs. But if you'd like, I can list the crimes against humanity that the CCP has committed, but I might have to clear it with the moderators first because my post will take up about 20+ pages.

The accusations leveled against FLG absolutely reek of the CCP's demonisation and paranoia. "They want to take over the country." "They want to usurp the power of the CCP." "They want to plunge the nation into a hell-hole of superstition and primitive backwardness." "They are an evil cult that deceives people out of their money." "They are dangerous and will commit acts of terrorism...just look at Japan! This is proof that non-state-sanctioned religions are all demonic killers." So now it seems they don't just want freedom to practice their beliefs, they want to TAKE OVER CHINA AND KILL EVERYONE WHO ISN'T AN FLG FOLLOWER!! Oh my God, f'n pleeeeeeease.
I can't believe we're having a conversation which includes these maniacal, paranoid rantings on my beloved ATS. These accusations are so transparent as being simple manifestations of the CCP's deepest fears that it is laughable. Dr. Freud would have a field day with these guys. And the truth is it is all absolute, communist propaganda tripe. The CCP has moved on somewhat from the days of Mao and the Gang of Four, yes, but their techniques of demonisation of religions and non-state-sanctioned organisations are the same old, tired, communist standard methods that were old even back in the days of Stalin. Can't they come up with some new material?

As for the West only supporting FLG because they oppose the CCP, well that may be the case with some "new Cold War" nutcase neo-cons in Washington who I can't speak for, but for the rest of us normal folks it is simply a case of believing in some basic human rights such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and freedom from unjust imprisonment and torture. We oppose these things wherever they may be. I personally think the massacre at Waco, Texas was one of the greatest crimes against humanity in my lifetime, and I have voiced my opinion on that many times in other threads. And that "cult" had GUNS. How many guns do FLG members have? FLG was never anti-CCP until the CCP became anti-FLG. To posit that FLG wants to take over China is absolute rubbish - mindless parroting of the CCP's propaganda. And if Chinese people are supporting the persecution of FLG simply because some Western politicians have spoken in support of it, then that just goes to show how simple, nationalistic, and anti-West the CCP likes to keep the thoughts of the Chinese citizens. Personally I think this kind of blanket assumption as to the thoughts and reasoning of the Chinese is an insult. The more intelligent and analytical of my Chinese friends certainly don't think this way. This is the same insult to the intelligence of the Chinese people that the CCP constantly makes by saying that the Chinese can't handle democracy, they need to be told what to do and ruled by their CCP masters. Bollocks! What absolute, unmitigated crap! The CCP just wants to hold onto its power. Multi-party democracy by phased implementation in China would be enourmously successful, just as it has been in Taiwan, and it is the right of every, single Chinese person to be granted such.

The accusation that FLG controls The Epoch Times is based on flimsy conjecture at best, and even if they DO...so what?!? The CCP controls ALL of the media within China, every single outlet of it, as well as many newspapers outside of China, and they constantly use this massive, unprecedented in scope propaganda machine to demonise FLG and anyone else who they deem as a threat to their power. Who could blame FLG for trying to combat some of this demonisation through the only medium left available to them? Hmm? If the CCP started a smear campaign against me in their media, I would try to combat it and let the truth be known as well. Wouldn't you? People point to the possibility that FLG influences The Epoch Times as evidence that they are an evil cult, and yet the fact that the CCP controls the media sources of 1/5th of the world's population with an iron grip is what, no big deal? Pfft. Talk about double standards.



rapier28 said:
Cults all want one thing, to be left alone to do whatever they want. However, this contravenes a healthy society.


Firstly, the designation of FLG as a "cult" is part of CCP propaganda. Let's use the term religious organisation and look at it again. Religious organisations all want one thing, to be left alone to do whatever they want. However, this contravenes a healthy society. Oh my...take away the auto-brain-response trigger of the word "cult" and suddenly this seems like a fundamentally wrong and evil statement. Giving religious organisations freedom to practice their religions does not contravene the tenets of a healthy society. What does contravene a healthy society is the suppression, control, and outlawing of any organisation arbitrarily deemed by the State to be its enemy, regardless of the lack of any evidence to support such claims. This is called Fascism. The CCP have gone so far left on this one that they came out the other side all the way over on the right.

[edit on 2005-8-2 by wecomeinpeace]


Oct

posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 04:43 AM
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Originally posted by rapier28
If FLG propped up in Japan after the sarin gas attacks, i doubt it would've received the same type or level of publicity in the west.



Mr. Tsuruzono Masaaki In Charge of Falun Gong in Japan Won the Social Culture Contribution Award
Mr. Tsuruzono Masaaki, who is the top responsible person for Falun Gong in Japan, won the Social Culture Contribution Award, conferred by the Japanese Art Promotion Association on November 15, 2000. This is the only Social Culture Contribution Award in the year 2000 in Japan. The Japanese Art Promotion Association was initiated by the Japanese royal family members and celebrities in social cultural circles, aiming at developing Japanese traditional culture, fostering the international cultural exchanges and world peace. It has great influence worldwide.

www.clearwisdom.net...


Oct

posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 05:16 AM
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Originally posted by rapier28

I can tell you now that within the chinese community, FLG has little to 0 credibility and certainly none in China, so take the 3 million resignations with a grain of salt.



A little like CCP's tone, CCP always claim CCP is the delegate of Chinese people.

CCP, in the name of Chinese people, deprives Chinese people's freedom of belief. and fredom of speech. right?


Oct

posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 05:36 AM
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Originally posted by rapier28

At least in Xinhua, critical reports of lower ranking officials and corruption is discussed. On forums like Chinadaily, censorship is nothing like it was even 1 year ago, just go there and take a look inside the Chinadaily forum at the negative topics, even on the CCP that isn't censored.
[edit on 1-8-2005 by rapier28]


CCP is evil, to make a false impression to those who donot know CCP deeply, it intended to let a little critical reports appear in the media.

This might let some people think the censorship is not as serious as said.

However, this is the trick!

CCP watches out the media strictly, it has a criteria, anything beyond that criteria is not allowed.

At the same time, the bad things is too much, if there is not a little critical reports, people would easily tell that ccp is lying again.

So, CCP lets these little critical reports help CCP to continue to cheat people.



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 10:24 PM
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Well everex605, that was certainly an interesting link (If anyone else wants to check this paper out, it's the first link and it's a .doc), but it doesn't change a thing. It is, however, an amazingly well written justification of persecution, filled with double-speak and misdirection. And that's just the beginning.

I'm not even going to try to go through this point by point, I would be writing for the next three days. I'm just going to cut through all the crap and get to the heart of the matter.

If I were to take what the paper says as gospel truth, and Falun Gong is a UFO cult, whose leader claims to implant them with mystic energy, that still doesn't mean they should be rounded up and put in camps to 'fix them' through re-education and forced labour.

If what this paper said about Falun Gong is true, and we found out about it, it would probably be an extremely popular topic here on ATS. Just think of it, you have the leader with mystical powers, the dangerous cult, the UFO's coming, millions of followers worldwide, and to top it all off, aliens wandering the countryside mating with innocent young girls!!!!




According to Li, at the moment, Aliens roam over the earth, pretending to be humans, trying to take over the human bodies, procreating with country girls and trying to take over this earth (Switzerland C, 37). They escaped the purge conducted by Li in outer space and arrived with UFO’s recently''

I bet you could probably find some members here that believe in aliens.
But so far, the mods haven't felt the need to take the drastic action of tracking them down by their IP addresses so they can swoop them up in the night in the black ATS panel truck....that we've heard of.
Instead, they have their own forum where they can talk about UFO's all day long. See the difference?

It doesn't change the fact that members of Falun Gong, Christians, Buddhists and Muslims are being persecuted for their religious beliefs. That is the problem, not Falun Gong. That, and maybe the aliens.....


[edit on 2-8-2005 by Duzey]



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 10:53 PM
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FLG is a cult. There are multiple criterias for defining a cult. And FLG fits about about 7 out of 10. I don't recall all the 10 criterias but here is a couple:

1) Sense of Paranoia.
2) Emphasis of individual sacrifice for the Movement.
3) Love-Bombing = We love you. Please Join Us. Don't you feel the sense of community?
4) Leading people to FLG (recruitment drives) that are cloaked in other activities (wanna see Free Friday Night movie??)
5) Narcissitic Tendencies. The Leader is almighty.
6) Marked by violence. Within the Cult. (I think that self-amolation in TNM qualifies, don't you?)
7) Unoriginal philosopy or twisting original philosophy to suit its purposes. It's call Flex-Philosopy.

Now...FLG has zero original philosophy. I have read their literature in some detail and the foundation of their beliefs is rotten. Qigong should be Qigong. Buddhism is Buddhism. Mixing the two to create an amalgamate does not mean you are original.

Next, if you visit the Chinese version of the Site, my goodness, it has more political attacks and news about lawsuits against heads of states than actual religious content?! And yes, the English/Chinese version is dramatically different. Why the distinction.

The Chinese Government is no angel. But it has responsibilities and as such, it needs to assess issues in terms of potential. Good or Bad. FLG has this habit of showcasing their strenght by surrounding inanimated objects. It is an unlicensed protest and no government will tolerate that. Why don't you try surrounding the White House without a permit?

In a structure that has obvious flaws (even the govt readily admits that) and currently working hard to correct them. Time is do so is very important. Violating order is not helping the country gain the time it needs to reform. Hence, the government is right to crack down on it.




In west opinion(or US)

communism = evil
China is communist (so they say)
therefore China = evil

anything against evil = holy
FLG is against China
China = evil
therefore FLG is holy

holy....... s h ! t


[edit on 2-8-2005 by joechino]

[edit on 3-8-2005 by joechino]



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 11:05 PM
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In this Time Magazine interview, Li Hongzhi himself reveals what a fraud he is.
www.time.com...



Taken from above times magazine link:
TIME: In your book [Zhuan Falun] you talk about people levitating off the ground but you say that they should not show other people. Why is that?
Li: It is the same principle that Western gods in paradise should not be seen by ordinary mortals because they cannot understand its meaning.

TIME: Have you seen human beings levitate off the ground?
Li: I have known too many.

TIME: Can you describe any that you have known?
Li: David Copperfield. He can levitate and he did it during performances.



Based from the article (i dun know if the li hongzi dude sue/rebute Time's article for misreporting), he sounds like very much deluded. Something like extreme form of disillusionary egocentricity egomaniac.
David copperfield "levitating", that is real BS, crap,etc... The li "god" dude dun know that that is "human made up illusions". What a "god". David copperfield is practising "qigong" and levitates? Somebody got to ask him. Or is the li dude is actually referring to david koresh?



Parts of Falun gong said you should use it to heal and no need for th doctor. many died of hunger or illness because they didn't see a doctor. The leader of the cult then said they weren't true flg practitioners, as stated in the site which give facts and proof.



If FLG members go see doctor and get healed(very likely), it will dilute his "universal master power" because the member is "indebted" to an ordinary non-FLG human being. Where does that leave his "power" -> not "healing, powerful and omnipotent".

What if this li hongzhi dude falls really sick? Does he see doctor and pop down a few tablets or he "qigong" himself to health? It would be interesting if he suffers from alzheimers in later age. The "master of all universe and beyond" suffers from alzheimers and cant remember where is his house.




[edit on 3-8-2005 by joechino]

[edit on 3-8-2005 by joechino]



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