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Originally posted by everex605
"I’m not going to talk about doing healing here. We don’t do healing. But if you want to do true cultivation, and you’ve come here with an ailing body, then you can’t cultivate yet. So I have to purify your body. I only purify the body for people who’ve truly come here to learn the practice, who truly come to learn the Law."
"Some people think that healing people, or helping them get healthy and fit, is doing a good thing. But the way I see it, they haven’t really healed anything."
"So why is it okay to do that for cultivators, then? Because nobody is more precious than a cultivator. He wants to cultivate, and that’s the most precious thought."
In my unstanding, Li said, if you trust him and become a cultivator, he will heal your body if you have illness. That's ridiculous.
Again for human rights, we have a lot of problems during the process of urbanization and industrialization, workers lost their jobs, farmers lost their land and they became neglected class and lost their voice on media. Though most of the bad news cannot be read on newspaper because of censorship, they can be discussed freely in many forums( to some extent).
Sources disclose that on July 15, Yang Jianhua, a staff from the Chinese Embassy in Ottawa walked out of the Embassy with his wife and son. Now the Chinese Embassy is searching for him and suspects that he and his family are hiding in an eastern Canada city. Meanwhile, the Chinese Embassy is tightening its control over other Embassy staff.
The news source discloses that Yang Jianhua is 33 years old. He came to the Chinese Embassy in Ottawa in the spring 2004 and worked as a hairdresser for the Embassy. Last month, his wife and son came to Canada to visit him. Yang grasped the opportunity, drove out of the Chinese Embassy and fled with his wife and son on July 15. They left behind their passports when they fled the Embassy, since the passports had to be surrendered to the Embassy when relatives visit.
The recent defector Chen Yonglin, who used to be the top secretary of the Chinese Consulate in Sydney, Australia, exposed that many Chinese personnel stationed abroad are dissatisfied with the Chinese Communist system and want to defect. When Mr. Chen was granted the permanent protection visa, the current Chinese Ambassador to Australia, Fu Ying, warned the Australian government that granting the permanent protection visa is equivalent to opening the door for Chinese officials to flee. Fu warned that this could cause a large number of Chinese officials to defect, since they will defect to Western societies once they have the opportunity.
My summation of FLG is that it is another Utopian Movement. However, Utopia is generally a bankrupted dream of the past. The failure of Communism and Republicanism forever shattered any idealism that was left in the Chinese people. They need a time of recovery to regain any sense of Idealism.
Also, whatever Li Hong Zhi preached, his teaching is not reaching the local level. Many of his disciples are involved in scandals and even crimes at the local level. A common scene in China where the Central authority have policies, local level have counter policies. The same applies to FLG as local level disciples abused their position for their own profit in China.
And many intellectuals are having problems with the teaching of Li Hong Zhi that he is misleading the people and bringing another age of ignorance by introduction of his own definition of universe. Many people in China don't have access to education and many of them are more likely to believe Li Hong Zhi created the Universe rather than learning the theory of Einstein or Newton.
Religion, while not as important in China when comparing to the West, nonetheless presented important lessons in history. The Huang Jing Rebellion of Late Han, Huang Chao Rebellion of Late Tang, Fan La of North Song, Hong Jing Army of Late Yuan, and the White Lotus Society and Tai Ping Tien Guo of Late Ching were all religions lead by peasants that eventually turned into massive rebellions that rampaged through out China. (To no one's surprise, historical documents all recorded that they preach some form of "Truth", "Forbearance", and "Tolerance" and later evolved into genocidal rampages or degeneration.) In addition, the massive propaganda effort to counter Communist propaganda is considered a formal declaration of war on the CCP.
Inherently, the difference between CCP and traditional Chinese dynasty is that CCP's ideology is already bankrupted and it can't return to the traditional concept lay out by COnfuscius. In that respect, Li Hong Zhi's ideology was regarded as a potential competition and hence must be eliminated.
My Grandfather practice a non-FLG qigong. But the consensus in the family is that qigong these days are not genuine considering how many charlattans with bankrupted morality are out there these days.
Either way, i do not feel comfortable that China, after so many years of struggle for modern society and science, would one day fell under the control of FLG and all its advancement roll back due to the superstitions preached. And the inherent belief that all religion, including those preached by the CCP, are poison to people's mind. And i certainly do not want 1.3 billion people bowing before yet another false god.
Originally posted by rapier28
Anyway, i just want to make the point that no matter what you think about FLG, you should go out and talk to the the 99.99% of ethnic chinese people that are non-FLG and ask for there opinions.
Personally, i think FLG is a cult, and the west obviousely likes it because its anti-ccp. If FLG propped up in Japan after the sarin gas attacks, i doubt it would've received the same type or level of publicity in the west.
One thing i think people should be careful of is to constantly back FLG and assume that all the figures that they prop out are correct. I can tell you now that within the chinese community, FLG has little to 0 credibility and certainly none in China, so take the 3 million resignations with a grain of salt.
1) Chen Yonglin claimed that China "kidnapped" Lan pu's son from Australia to force his dad to go back to China, the Australian securities department recently called those claims "groundless" after conducting interviews with Lan Pu's son who is still in australia.
2) Most people that go abroad and join FLG are now doing so for VISA purposes, just like the aftermath of 6/11, again, this is common knowledge in the Chinese community. (I know people who can get anyone a visa for around $20,000 Australian dollars, provided your Chinese and willing to claim to be FLG)
HOWEVER, the Chinese people are proud and do value stability, China (nationalism) and economic growth. Most chinese people detest the FLG not because of they belief but because of the fact that they are supported by a lot of red-neck neo-cons which the Chinese know arn't going to be looking out for they interests.
I mean, does Senator Schumer and Rep Tancredo actually want whats better for the Chinese people?
If you fail to do that and continue on by screaming loudly on FLG, the CCP will continue to enjoy the support of the vast majority of chinese people, and the vast majority of overseas chinese people.
P.S - on the hairdresser thats claiming asylem in canada, c'mon, his obviously just wants a visa lol, i mean, thats pretty damn obvious to see isn't it.
The debate usually ends in insults and nothing actually gets debated. I sometimes wonder whether forums actually amplify or converge differences in opinion. I'am leaning towards the former.
There does appear to be, at the very least, an intimate association between these groups and the FLG. In early 2004, Li Hongzhi, the founder and spiritual leader of the group, gave his one and only interview since the group was banned to the NTDTV. According to a report in the Far Eastern Economic Review, prominent FLG spokespeople serve as a director for NTDTV and on the board of The Epoch Times; both organizations give the FLG prominent coverage. In addition, both organizations are staffed by volunteers, often FLG followers, whose main jobs are unrelated to journalism.
Originally posted by rapier28
Firstly, the torture claims by FLG, i believe, are exaggerated, some of they "Cartoons" of torture on they website can be plugged off any Chinese civil war novel. The reason why i say its exaggerated because the CCP does not torture in the conventional sense, this is what separates them from the KMT during the civil war.
There was progress towards reform in some areas, but this failed to have a significant impact on serious and widespread human rights violations perpetrated across the country. Tens of thousands of people continued to be detained or imprisoned in violation of their fundamental human rights and were at high risk of torture or ill-treatment. Thousands of people were sentenced to death or executed, many after unfair trials. Public protests increased against forcible evictions and land requisition without adequate compensation. China continued to use the global "war on terrorism" to justify its crackdown on the Uighur community in Xinjiang. Freedom of expression and religion continued to be severely restricted in Tibet and other Tibetan areas of China.
Torture and ill-treatment continued to be reported in a wide variety of state institutions despite the introduction of several new regulations aimed at curbing the practice. Common methods included kicking, beating, electric shocks, suspension by the arms, shackling in painful positions, and sleep and food deprivation. Political interference in the rule of law, restricted access to the outside world for detainees, and a failure to establish effective mechanisms for complaint and investigation continued to be key factors allowing the practice to flourish.
The authorities officially announced an intention to reform "Re-education through Labour", a system of administrative detention used to detain hundreds of thousands of people for up to four years without charge or trial. However, the exact nature and scope of reform remained unclear.
People accused of political or criminal offences continued to be denied due process. Detainees' access to lawyers and family members continued to be severely restricted and trials fell far short of international fair trial standards. Those charged with offences related to "state secrets" or "terrorism" had their legal rights restricted and were tried in camera.
In October, Falun Gong organizations abroad publicized video footage of
Wang Xia, a woman who had recently been released from prison in Hohhot, Inner Mongolia where she had served two years of a seven-year sentence for distributing materials promoting Falun Gong. She appeared emaciated and her body bore several scars. She had reportedly been tied to a bed, hung up, beaten, injected with unknown substances and shocked with electric batons after going on hunger strikes to protest against her detention.
North Korean asylum-seekers
Hundreds, possibly thousands, of North Korean asylum-seekers in north-east China were arrested and forcibly returned during the year. China continued to deny North Koreans access to any refugee determination procedures despite evidence that many had a genuine claim to asylum and in breach of the UN Refugee Convention to which China is a state party.
Those assisting North Korean asylum-seekers, including members of foreign aid and religious organizations, ethnic Korean Chinese nationals, and journalists attempting to raise awareness of their plight, were detained for interrogation, and some were charged and sentenced to prison terms.
Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region (XUAR)
The authorities continued to use the "global war on terror" to justify harsh repression in Xinjiang, resulting in serious human rights violations against the ethnic Uighur community. The authorities continued to make little distinction between acts of violence and acts of passive resistance. Repression resulted in the closure of unofficial mosques, arrests of imams, restrictions on the use of the Uighur language and the banning of certain Uighur books and journals.
Arrests of so-called "separatists, terrorists and religious extremists" continued and thousands of political prisoners, including prisoners of conscience, remained in prison. Many of those charged with "separatist" or "terrorist" offences were reportedly sentenced to death and executed. Uighur activists attempting to pass information abroad about the extent of the crackdown were at risk of arbitrary detention and imprisonment.
China continued to use "counter-terrorism" as a means to strengthen its political and economic ties with neighbouring states. Uighurs who had fled to Central Asia, Pakistan, Nepal and other states, including asylum-seekers and refugees, remained at serious risk of forcible return to China. China continued to put pressure on the USA to return
22 Uighurs held in the US detention camp in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. In June, the US authorities stated that the Uighurs would not be returned to China due to fears that they would be tortured or executed.
Article 36 of the Chinese constitution asserts that all Chinese citizens enjoy freedom of religious belief, but the devil is in the details. The article applies only to the five religions officially recognized in China. It does not include other belief systems, nor does it include people who identify themselves as belonging to one of the recognized religions, but organize outside state control and are, thus, outlaws. A number of Catholic and Protestant groups fall outside the official state designation. Should the groups decide to abide by the regulations limiting their independence the possibility of shedding their illegal status exists. Such an option is not open to those the government classifies as "cults."
Just two days ago, on July 19, 2005, the Chairman of the TAR, Qangba Puncog, stated that Beijing will choose the next Dalai Lama, a critical example of blatant interference with religious belief and practice.
In addition, Chinese authorities have interfered with scholarly studies of Buddhism and the transmission of Buddhist practices to an upcoming generation of students and would-be scholars and monks. Most critically, in many areas there are few, if any, master scholars and teachers, and there are restrictions on inviting monks from other areas to give teachings. In at least two areas, monks cannot go on pilgrimages outside their own region for longer than five days. As one monk reported, "The monastery is helpless, as it is the order from higher authorities." University and public school students have told Human Rights Watch that they have barred from observing rituals and holidays, and in some cases threatened with expulsion.
The situation is much the same for the predominantly Muslim Uighur people in Xinjiang province. China limits religious practice; methodically campaigns to re-educate religious leaders; restricts publication of Uighur literature; discourages displays of religious attire or appearance, such as beards or veils, for those Uighurs holding government jobs or seeking university admittance; regulates the use of written and spoken Uighur; and discourages traditional celebratory occasions. In April 2005, Human Rights Watch released Devastating Blows: Religious Repression of Uighurs in Xinjiang, a report based on firsthand accounts and undisclosed government and Party documents. It shows beyond a doubt that religious and cultural policy in Xinjiang, as in Tibet, is carefully and deliberately crafted at the highest Party and government levels. Since the events of September 11, 2001, Beijing has suggested that its crackdown in Xinjiang is part of the "global war on terror," erasing the distinction between small pro-independence groups who in the past espoused violence and vocal but peaceful activists.
The Chinese government also imposes the same strict limits on religious observance in Inner Mongolia, another ethnic region with a history of Chinese attempts to destroy a distinctive culture. Hada, a Mongolian who tried peacefully to lead a movement to preserve that culture is now in the tenth year of a fifteen-year prison sentence.
Against this backdrop of religious intolerance, Falungong, which refers to itself as a spiritual organization, and certain Protestant groups have fared even worse. In 1999, after listing the characteristics of so-called heretical cults, the Chinese government insisted that Falungong met the definition. The government held that Falungong represented a danger to its members and a threat to the stability of the state and subjected its leaders to criminal sanctions. Members unwilling to recant after re-education were to face trials heavily influenced, if not dictated, by Party and government authorities. The government even went so far as to forbid law firms from acting as consultants or as counsel to practitioners without first obtaining what amounted to government permission.
The ex post facto rulings cleared the way for the Ministry of Public Security and police at the provincial and local levels to arrest, detain and interrogate Falungong members and members of other so-called cults and unregistered groups. The police–– along with other agencies authorized to send people to re-education through labor camps for up to three years without trial or other judicial input–– have sent thousands of Falungong members to labor camps for periods ranging from days to years. Police often prefer re-education through labor to criminal prosecution, for a variety of reasons: for example, because evidence necessary for a judicial conviction is hard to come by or because, as in the case of Falungong, the numbers were considerable and the Party determined to quickly stamp out the perceived threat to its authority. There was hardly any time for trials, even truncated ones that came nowhere near complying with international standards of openness and fairness. In other cases, Falungong members have been forcefully sent to psychiatric institutions.
Torture is common in China's criminal justice system. Recent HRW research suggests that abuses are particularly likely in Tibet and Xinjiang. In Tibet, authorities have subjected religious figures and activists to mistreatment in detention.
In Xinjiang, populated mostly by Muslim Uighurs, China has cracked down on religious practitioners and activists and subjected them to abuse in prisons and "re-education through labor" camps—some have also been executed. Detainees have reported beatings with shackles, electric shocks, and being kicked to the point of unconsciousness.
They handled it in the kneejerk reaction that upped the appeal for FLG across the world which is quite ironic.
Chinese people in general were symphathetic to FLG at the start around 1998, but that quickly changed as they politisized they campaign. Instead of it being FLG Humanrights, it has being FLG China.
"Hang on, mabye the CCP was right and the end justifies the means".
The CCP is a very savvy party, it can survive in a democracy without any problems what so ever, it knows all the tricks of being a political party in a democracy with the advantage that it is not in a democracy.
Cults all want one thing, to be left alone to do whatever they want. However, this contravenes a healthy society.
connection of FLG to Epoch Times through an expert
Cults all want one thing, to be left alone to do whatever they want. However, this contravenes a healthy society.
Originally posted by rapier28
If FLG propped up in Japan after the sarin gas attacks, i doubt it would've received the same type or level of publicity in the west.
Originally posted by rapier28
I can tell you now that within the chinese community, FLG has little to 0 credibility and certainly none in China, so take the 3 million resignations with a grain of salt.
Originally posted by rapier28
At least in Xinhua, critical reports of lower ranking officials and corruption is discussed. On forums like Chinadaily, censorship is nothing like it was even 1 year ago, just go there and take a look inside the Chinadaily forum at the negative topics, even on the CCP that isn't censored.
[edit on 1-8-2005 by rapier28]
According to Li, at the moment, Aliens roam over the earth, pretending to be humans, trying to take over the human bodies, procreating with country girls and trying to take over this earth (Switzerland C, 37). They escaped the purge conducted by Li in outer space and arrived with UFO’s recently''
FLG is a cult. There are multiple criterias for defining a cult. And FLG fits about about 7 out of 10. I don't recall all the 10 criterias but here is a couple:
1) Sense of Paranoia.
2) Emphasis of individual sacrifice for the Movement.
3) Love-Bombing = We love you. Please Join Us. Don't you feel the sense of community?
4) Leading people to FLG (recruitment drives) that are cloaked in other activities (wanna see Free Friday Night movie??)
5) Narcissitic Tendencies. The Leader is almighty.
6) Marked by violence. Within the Cult. (I think that self-amolation in TNM qualifies, don't you?)
7) Unoriginal philosopy or twisting original philosophy to suit its purposes. It's call Flex-Philosopy.
Now...FLG has zero original philosophy. I have read their literature in some detail and the foundation of their beliefs is rotten. Qigong should be Qigong. Buddhism is Buddhism. Mixing the two to create an amalgamate does not mean you are original.
Next, if you visit the Chinese version of the Site, my goodness, it has more political attacks and news about lawsuits against heads of states than actual religious content?! And yes, the English/Chinese version is dramatically different. Why the distinction.
The Chinese Government is no angel. But it has responsibilities and as such, it needs to assess issues in terms of potential. Good or Bad. FLG has this habit of showcasing their strenght by surrounding inanimated objects. It is an unlicensed protest and no government will tolerate that. Why don't you try surrounding the White House without a permit?
In a structure that has obvious flaws (even the govt readily admits that) and currently working hard to correct them. Time is do so is very important. Violating order is not helping the country gain the time it needs to reform. Hence, the government is right to crack down on it.
In west opinion(or US)
communism = evil
China is communist (so they say)
therefore China = evil
anything against evil = holy
FLG is against China
China = evil
therefore FLG is holy
holy....... s h ! t
In this Time Magazine interview, Li Hongzhi himself reveals what a fraud he is.
Taken from above times magazine link:
TIME: In your book [Zhuan Falun] you talk about people levitating off the ground but you say that they should not show other people. Why is that?
Li: It is the same principle that Western gods in paradise should not be seen by ordinary mortals because they cannot understand its meaning.
TIME: Have you seen human beings levitate off the ground?
Li: I have known too many.
TIME: Can you describe any that you have known?
Li: David Copperfield. He can levitate and he did it during performances.
Based from the article (i dun know if the li hongzi dude sue/rebute Time's article for misreporting), he sounds like very much deluded. Something like extreme form of disillusionary egocentricity egomaniac.
David copperfield "levitating", that is real BS, crap,etc... The li "god" dude dun know that that is "human made up illusions". What a "god". David copperfield is practising "qigong" and levitates? Somebody got to ask him. Or is the li dude is actually referring to david koresh?
Parts of Falun gong said you should use it to heal and no need for th doctor. many died of hunger or illness because they didn't see a doctor. The leader of the cult then said they weren't true flg practitioners, as stated in the site which give facts and proof.
If FLG members go see doctor and get healed(very likely), it will dilute his "universal master power" because the member is "indebted" to an ordinary non-FLG human being. Where does that leave his "power" -> not "healing, powerful and omnipotent".
What if this li hongzhi dude falls really sick? Does he see doctor and pop down a few tablets or he "qigong" himself to health? It would be interesting if he suffers from alzheimers in later age. The "master of all universe and beyond" suffers from alzheimers and cant remember where is his house.