It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

One Anonymous Author and The Epoch Times Vs. The Chinese Communist Party

page: 7
2
<< 4  5  6    8 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 06:14 AM
link   


As you wrote this by yourself, I think I'd like to response.

Not all the persons love power like CCP does, Falun Gong practitioners really do not care about politics. Falun gong practitioners will not take over the government after CCP's collapse in the future, this is for sure.


I don't believe you.Actually I believe you are the cult such as the Yellow Turbans and White Lotus,Yi He Quan. there are reports that FLG recived lots money from DPP( taiwan's current ruling party).



Although CCP is the most evilest thing in the universe, Falun Gong did not deal with it before the evil persecution. Because what Falun Gong practitioners want are not the things in this material world.

What we want is assimilating to the nature of the universe, to be a good person, a better person.


You tell the lies.I saw FLG commit the evilest things by my own eyes.They teach people to suicide for "Yuan Man".I saw a father kill his daughter and his wife for "Yuan Man".That's your being a good person,a better person?I saw a old women not to hospital for heal only for "Yuan Man".Now She is a lame.Li Hong Zhi teach people to sacrifice themselves,why he doesn't sacrifice himself.In this Time Magazine interview, Li Hongzhi himself reveals what a fraud he is.
www.time.com...


However, because of the evil nature of CCP, it cannot tolerate 100 million people practicing a belief, which is different from CCP.

Even now, Falun gong practitioners only expose the evil of CCP, also donot care about politics. Because CCP's lies have poisoned many people, and they donot have a clear understanding about Falun Gong, therefore let the whole world know what CCP really is is necessary. After the people know the nature of CCP, CCP's evil lies cannot cheat people any more.


If CCP is evil,I believe you are thousands times evil than CCP.You are really frauds.



Oct

posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 06:59 AM
link   
Why there is not a single suicide case outside China?
Now there are Falun Gong practitioners in 78 countries!


Your post is full of lies. With your own eyes? Are you cheating little kids?

I suggest you ask your supervisor to get a chance to promote your English and logic thinking.



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 01:44 AM
link   
Hey, 2 vs 1 (wecomeinpeace & Duzey), not fair


Ok, lets widen the scope to general China, Human Rights, Economic Growth, Religions, everything, the whole general picture of how nations develop.

Actually, i feel like i'am going over old ground here, basically a justification of the CCP at this period of Chinese growth. I know a lot of these justifications are not what people want to hear but i simply believe it to be necessary.

Ok, question, does anyone know of a country that has grown to a first-world democracy under a democracy?

Any takers?

Because i can't think of any, apart from the unique current work-in-progress of India (far from perfect btw, has large rich-poor difference just like China, escapes western attention).

Let's go through the list.

U.S

1) Colonial period, repression of indigeonous population.
2) Until the civil war, slaves.
3) After the civil war, black voting, witch hunts, etc etc.

Britain

1) Ireland, class system, colonialism, imperialism ....
2) Before industrialisation and revolutions, basically a true monarchy.

France, Portugal, etc etc

See Britain ...

Japan

1) Prior to WWII, reform period (Meiji?), certainly not democratic.
2) After WWII, still one-party (LDP) rule, can't be called a "true liberal democracy", but then again, who can?

South Korea

1) After WW2, ruled by the military junta until after the Seoul olympics.

Hong Kong - Pre Handover

1) 150 years of British colonial rule, no elections.

Taiwan

1) Ruled by the KMT under a military junta.

Indonesia

1) Military junta, Sukarno, Suharto, blah blah blah.

Greek

1) Military junta after the overthrow of the communist rebels (who fought against the nazis) and the legitimate government after WW2.

Australia

1) Democracy was certainly not there for the gold miners, the migrants, the aboriginies, etc during the industrialisation of the country.
2) Even after it was incepted, the aborigines continued to suffer, it takes time for it to evolve.

I think you get my point (And my historical knowledge is also running scarce, i wrote the above just based on things in my head so don't judge me too harshly if i made a mistake).

The fact is, a countries economic development is followed by democracy when a "critical mass" is reached, i don't think this would be any different for China. This is why i don't get worked up about the whole issue, because things take time to develop, this goes for democracies too.

As much as it sounds crude, the CCP, an authoritarian government, is best placed to industrialize the country, in order to reach a 1st world economy, a country needs to make tough decisions (something that the Indians are struggling with), the CCP is best placed to do that.

When the time comes, the CCP will either reform, or die. Knowing the CCP, it will probably reform much like the Polish Communists and make a government similar to the LDP in Japan or a "soft" autocracy like singapore. This is inevitable and not subject to you or me, it is out of our control.

Its not a choice.

The CCP has to run the economy well because its legitimacy depends on it, this has and will only bring good things for the Chinese people. The next 50 years will be momentous for China, the Chinese people, and the World.

If after another 25-50 years of 8% economic growth, and the CCP still hasn't reformed, i would be pushing for reform like you (Duzey and wecomeinpeace), however, until that day comes, i will not because i believe that the current economic reforms benefit more then it harms.

A change now would be a leap into the unknown, that is never acceptable when Chinese have finally got a chance after 100 years of stagnation for a new lease on life. You might disagree with me but the CCP is going in the right direction (pushed and prodded), just look at differences even 1 or 2 years ago. Reforms are occuring, the entire culture is changing.

In another 50 years (barring major incidents), the CCP can no longer claim that the "world is out there to get China" and will reform. What you or i do is irrelevant to democracy in China, counter-productive at worst as it feeds directly into the CCP's message.

All democracy in China needs now is time, nothing else.

EDIT: Grammer & Spelling

[edit on 6-8-2005 by rapier28]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 02:36 AM
link   
I don't think you'll have any problem dealing with me at all.
I don't match up to wcip's hilarious posts in any way.


As for your historical overview, yeah basically we humans suck and just can't seem to treat each other right. I'm glad you left out the horrible things my government has done, it doesn't make me proud to know that they sent First Nations children to residential schools to be brought up 'right'. You see these people, grown up now, whose lives have been completely destroyed by what happened to them. All for nothing but their race and lack of religion.

We were trying to make 'them' like 'us'. We were trying to help them, for their own good. Now we have a First Nation population in shambles, epidemic suicide numbers in some areas and rampant drug abuse. It doesn't just affect the people who went there, it affects the entire community they live in and for several generations. Re-education does not work, my country is living proof of that. It just creates the problems of the future.

As for my wish to see China move more quickly towards democracy, it is only because it would benefit the country and the people. The CCP can be a little hesitant about change
and the slower they move on this, the longer until China can take the place on the world stage they wish. A democratically elected CCP would certainly drive the West nuts.


They probably wouldn't even have to abolish the reform through labour system entirely, just stop using it to manufacture goods for exports. Then perhaps local industry can pick up the slack and create empolyment in factories. They can still have the convicts pick up trash or work on the roads, just give them trials first and a safe set of regulations to be followed.

If the CCP were to just phase these kinds of behaviours out, everyone would stop talking about them doing this and that. Until then, China will be regarded with suspicion and targeted with economic retaliations, and they will get away with it because they can cry 'Communist'!!!



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 02:56 AM
link   

Originally posted by rapier28
Hey, 2 vs 1 (wecomeinpeace & Duzey), not fair


Awwww...come on, rapier. I've been pretty much staying out of it lately. Anyway, Duzey could trounce you on this one with one history book tied behind her back.


Plus, you've got a few CCP cheerleaders spouting the usual nonsense to back you up.


"Gimme a C!"

C!!

"Gimme a C-P!"

CP!!

"What does it spell?"

TYRANNY!!


j/k j/k All in good fun.


[edit on 2005-8-6 by wecomeinpeace]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 04:18 AM
link   
Hahaha wcip
, your right Duzey, his being practising his writing. Anyway, history is just a hobby of mine, my actual field is biology so feel free to point out any gaps in my historical recollection.

Yeah, if a smooth transition occurs, the CCP would stay in power for a while judging by other governments, but given the lack of a democracy base in China at the moment, i dunno what "alternative" government might pop up. The only alternative party that i can think of which might "eventually" be acceptable to Chinese people might be the party who likes blue.

It would be highly ironic if the KMT turned out to be the alternative party!



[edit on 6-8-2005 by rapier28]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 01:08 PM
link   
A process of instituting democracy would actually be surprisingly simple in China. The infrastructure is all there; the middle-class is educated; the country's doing well economically; and the legislative process, although a complete farce and a pantomime at the moment, could easily be adapted to a true democratic one. All it would take is for the CCP to phase in (important word, "phase") voting for party leaders by the people. The Chinese people would be voting for the same party, but still determining their destiny to the extent where they can choose leaders, and oust the corrupt ones. Before long, as is the nature of politics, there would be intra-party bickering and a faction would split off and call for a multi-party system. And not long after that, you'd have the CCP vs the CSP and they'd be merrily brawling and throwing their lunches at each other in the People's Congress just like they do in Taiwan.

I'm sorry, but the assertion that China can't handle an incremental introduction of democracy is an insult to the Chinese people, is parroting CCP propaganda, and is in direct contradiction to the nationalistic pride-fueled rantings of how super-duper China is by the mouthpieces (rapier not incl.) in this thread and others.

And giving the CCP credit for China's economic success is like saying the flea is the master of the tiger it rides on. The CCP have been naught but a repressive parasite on China's back for 56 years, which in terms of China's previous dynasties, is a blink of an eye. Deng's opening up of China to the West was no "great feat".
Any moron could do that, and China, with all her labour and land resources was bound to be successful anyway. Finally the fleas stopped biting the tiger and it was free to hunt again. The worship of Deng the Butcher of Tiananmen Xiao Ping because of his economic reform is like thanking the slave master for stopping whipping the slave. Imagine the glorious nation that China would be today if she hadn't been oppressed and crippled by that gang of murdering, hypocritical despots. Tibet would still be free, Taiwanese children would be able to live without fear of PLA missiles raining down on them, the true Chinese culture would have been retained, Chinese citizens wouldn't have to worry about being imprisoned or shot for exercising free speech or religion, and China would be a superpower already.

Make whatever sales pitch you like, the CCP is an unsellable product.



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 01:56 PM
link   
Let's take a look at Mr. Li Hong Zhi, the leader and creator of FaLunGong, an uneducated man, has been working as a labor for 20 years in a farm in a very small and poor town of North East China.

Just find out the resume of Mr. Li Hong Zhi:
1952 Born
1960-1969, studying from elementary school to junior high school in ChangChun city(Pearl elementary school, No.4/No.48 junior high school)
1970-1978, playing horn in a horse farm at Unit201, Chinese Army
1078-1982, working as a waiter in a hotel in forest
1982-1991, working as a security in the food supplies company of ChangChun city
1991.... Create Fa Lun Gong and then be the leader, creator and god of it.

Suddenly one day Mr. Li Hong Zhi claimed that he was the god of the world and found a way to the heaven(maybe think himself more important than Jesus)...Hoho...So interesting...

Now any sane person is able to judge whether the FaLunGong organization should be trusted or not ^_^



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 05:05 PM
link   

Originally posted by rapier28
Hahaha wcip
, your right Duzey, his being practising his writing. Anyway, history is just a hobby of mine, my actual field is biology so feel free to point out any gaps in my historical recollection.

If I had to work out the averages, I would say that wcip accounts for more than 90% of the beverages sprayed on my monitor and keyboard in laughing fits.
It's a beautiful thing.

Everything on ATS is a hobby of mine; bookkeeping, human resources and administrative management just don't come up in conversation here much.
But if you want to know what kind of office equipment you should buy, or make your financial statements look better than they really are, without contravening GAP, I'm your girl.
The conflict resolution and negotiation skills come in handy sometimes though.




It would be highly ironic if the KMT turned out to be the alternative party!

That would be so ironic they would have to invent a new word for it.


I think it would be politically smart for the CCP to move towards democracy sooner rather than later. By holding off on democracy they are just delaying the inevitable. Right now, they have no effective opposition and control all the media. This basically guarantees them a win. It's pretty hard to run a campaign from a labour camp without any advertising.


Then after the CCP has been elected to run China a few times, people will start to get over the fear of disagreeing with the government and you will see a few more parties get into the mix. But that will take a long time, and give the CCP a chance to prove that they can operate in a democracy. They would be in power for at least 20 - 30 years, I think, before any other party could gain enough support to seriously challenge them in any way.

Then several years after this, when there have been elected democratic governments in China and freedom of speech and religion is allowed, the people of Taiwan might just look across the straight, and say 'Hey, those CCP guys sure have been trying to make things better. Maybe they aren't such a group of power-hungry thugs anymore. Why, they are just like us now! Maybe it's time to talk about improving relations'. Of course, you'd have to throw them a couple of Panda bears every year and maybe a Golden monkey or two, but that's a small price to pay for bringing re-unification a little bit closer than it has been in over 50 years.

China is in an interesting position right now. She has the luxury of looking at all the incredibly appalling and stupid things we in the West have done in the name of advancement, and learn from our mistakes. Unfortunately, it seems pride gets in the way. The CCP wants to do it their way or no way. Why do people, and countries, insist on refusing to learn from history?

Just look at the problems segregation and slavery in the past has caused for the US. How long ago did slavery get outlawed? How long have they had equal rights? It doesn't seem to me that the damage caused to a society is something that goes away any time soon. The actions of the CCP today are creating some of the most serious problems China will face in the next 50 - 100 years.

A nice place to start would be letting the Catholics have their Pope and not interfering with religion. Stop the religious persecution and let the churches choose their officials. Two immediate benefits of this? Number one, the Pope gives you his blessing and suddenly loves China. For a net gain of something like 13 million Catholics, they would forget all about Taiwan within a very short time. Secondly, it would shut the West and FLG up. While some of us have always followed this situation, FLG is the one making all the noise. If nothing were happening to them, there would be no horror stories for them to recount.

The best way to 'deal' with FLG is to educate people and provide them with the basics for survival and good health. And strangely enough, that is what a communist society is supposed to provide for its members. If the CCP had been doing what they were supposed to, this wouldn't have become such a big issue in the first place.


[edit on 6-8-2005 by Duzey]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 06:01 PM
link   

Originally posted by rapier28
Ok, question, does anyone know of a country that has grown to a first-world democracy under a democracy?

*waves arms in the air*

I can! I can! My country, Canada.


Canada was founded under the British North American Act and became a country on July 1, 1867. The first democratic elections ended Sept. 20, 1967. Sir John A. MacDonald, the interim Prime Minister, won the election.

Tehnically speaking, that is.


In reality, only about 11% of the population could vote. White, male landowners.
You have to start somewhere though and I think that under this resticted form of democracy we have evolved into a first-world democracy.




Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
Anyway, Duzey could trounce you on this one with one history book tied behind her back.

Didn't need either one once I finally clued in. D'oh!!!!




posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 06:32 PM
link   
Canada is obviously one of the best living place all over the world.

But I think it is a little bit unfair to compare the democracy in Canda with that in China because Canada has only 4% pupulation of China though the same area as China

I believe the condiction for multi-parties and democracy in China is as follows:
1. China is rich enough to make most people educated and have good life quality. To tell the truth, I personally believe it is really an amazing archivement for CCP to lead China to get a 15% annual GDP growth rate in the last 25 years with 1.4 billion population.
2. Another party grows strong enough to take part in the government.

Currently 99.9% Chinese people only focus on the economics development. So as long as China is stable and continuing booming with high GDP growth rate they will still firmly support CCP. The FaLunGong or the views from western countries almost mean nothing to them.

This situation will be changed only when the economic of China trends to go down or China have already been one of the richest and most powerful countries in the world.


Originally posted by Duzey

Originally posted by rapier28
Ok, question, does anyone know of a country that has grown to a first-world democracy under a democracy?

*waves arms in the air*

I can! I can! My country, Canada.


Canada was founded under the British North American Act and became a country on July 1, 1867. The first democratic elections ended Sept. 20, 1967. Sir John A. MacDonald, the interim Prime Minister, won the election.

Tehnically speaking, that is.


In reality, only about 11% of the population could vote. White, male landowners.
You have to start somewhere though and I think that under this resticted form of democracy we have evolved into a first-world democracy.




Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
Anyway, Duzey could trounce you on this one with one history book tied behind her back.

Didn't need either one once I finally clued in. D'oh!!!!




posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 06:42 PM
link   
Today in Chinatown(the one in Philadelphia, PA) I saw The people from the epoch times giving out epoch times newspapers to people and it says millions of chinese withdraw from the CCP. But there was more than pasting out newspapers. i know they are just a group who oppose the CCP, but i think they have go a bit too far of what they do.

and i saw Falun Gong stuff, i didn't know what is it, but a friend told me that it was a cult of some kind.

[edit on 6-8-2005 by ulshadow]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 07:05 PM
link   
Comparing China and Canada is like comparing apples to oranges, but it does illustrate how easy it would really be to start moving towards democracy without the CCP having to give up much of anything.

All they have to do is form smaller parties within the CPP and allow for minor differences on public policy. Then the Chinese people can vote on the various candidates, and have a 'choice'. Poof, instant democracy, or close enough to be able to say they're trying to improve; and absolutely no loss of power or control for the CCP.

From there, it will be a natural progression. They just need to take the first step.

ulshadow,

I think that it's pretty obvious that the Epoch Times does support FLG, and that many practitioners work there. The position the paper has taken is that doesn't matter, and it is covered so heavily because it is the number one human rights issue in China right now. After all, the good news about China is more than adequately covered in state-run media. I think it is a mistake for them not to be more open about this, newspapers are perfectly entitled to an official position. Why give people something to criticize you for?

I try not to be concerned about whether FLG is a cult or a religion and concentrate on what is happening to them. As long as they are not harming others and performing criminal acts, we should let them be.

Can you imagine what would happen in our countries if the govts started rounding up Scientologists, Hare Krishnas and Satanists for forced labour and re-education?




[edit on 6-8-2005 by Duzey]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 09:42 PM
link   

Originally posted by Duzey
In reality, only about 11% of the population could vote. White, male landowners.
You have to start somewhere though and I think that under this resticted form of democracy we have evolved into a first-world democracy.


Ok, lol, i'am going to be a smart arse here.

Note that the Communist party membership is 70 million out of 1.3 billion, and *as far as i know*, the CCP's members are allowed to vote (Theres like a lis of people sent to every state institution with names, and + you can nominate).

Ok, seriousely now, i actually want to see the CCP to insitute a proper judiciary before democracy, of course both are linked, by currently. I think the CCP is going in the right direction in terms of judicial reform (at least on non-political cases), this is very important.



Can you imagine what would happen in our countries if the govts started rounding up Scientologists, Hare Krishnas and Satanists for forced labour and re-education?


Just like if they rounded all the lawyers!!!

The world would be filled with love and happiness.

j/k



wecomeinpeace
Make whatever sales pitch you like, the CCP is an unsellable product.


Ok, i get it, you don't like the CCP


BTW, what is actually the definition of the CCP?

I mean, the CCP has 70 million members, its certainly not a one-man show nowdays, i wonder where the real power is?

I think that the CCP would have factions wouldn't it?

So, we we speaking of the CCP, are we condenming the insitution or the people? and which people?

Anyway, just some food for thought.

Also, i think that the analogy of whether or not China would've being better under Chiang or Mao or Neither shouldn't be overstated. China would obviousely be better now if it actually embraced the "renewel" during the latter stages of the Qing dynasty just like Japan did during its "renewel" period.

Of course, it would also be better if it wasn't pillaged by the western countries and invaded by Japan during the same period.

All things happen for a reason, i can take this further and say that the CCP would be a non-issue if non of those things have ever happened.

All we can deal with now is things within our control.


wecomeinpeace
Tibet would still be free, Taiwanese children would be able to live without fear of PLA missiles raining down on them, the true Chinese culture would have been retained, Chinese citizens wouldn't have to worry about being imprisoned or shot for exercising free speech or religion, and China would be a superpower already.


Actually, i don't believe any of these things would happen, as they say, "the more things change, the more they stay the same".

For example, the issues of Tibet, Xinjiang, Siberia, Taiwan being annexed from the latter stages of the Qing dynasty was what led Dr. Sun Yat-Sen to fame and the downfall of the Qing dynasty.

Dr. Sun was a true Nationalist and if he had stayed in power, you can bet your life that not one peace of Chinese land would've being given away. His a revolutionary nationalist.

He also believed in to much religion and superstition being harmful (at the time, buddhism). The CCP has actually implemented some of his policies and ideas such as the Three-Gorges Dam, which was original Dr. Sun's idea.

[edit on 6-8-2005 by rapier28]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 10:44 PM
link   

Originally posted by rapier28
Note that the Communist party membership is 70 million out of 1.3 billion, and *as far as i know*, the CCP's members are allowed to vote (Theres like a lis of people sent to every state institution with names, and + you can nominate).

OK, I did the math and it's a little under 5.5%. Now they just have to double the party membership and stop sending people to reform through labour camps for their religious beliefs.

See, it won't be as hard as you think.




Ok, seriousely now, i actually want to see the CCP to insitute a proper judiciary before democracy, of course both are linked,

Judicial reforms are a priority but as long as the CCP holds absolute power, the laws are subject to their whim. The only good legal system is one who protects the people, not the government.



The world would be filled with love and happiness.



Not quite, they haven't gotten rid of the telemarketers and TV evangelists yet.



All we can deal with now is things within our control.

It's true that you can't change the past and have to deal with things as they are, not as you wish they were. I wish there weren't persecution and torture going on, but there is and we have to deal with it the best way we can.

Hoping the CCP will grow out of it hasn't seemed to work so far and I have no reason to believe that's going to change.



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 11:04 PM
link   

Originally posted by rapier28
Ok, i get it, you don't like the CCP


You've just figured that out now? Come on, rapier, you know me.



BTW, what is actually the definition of the CCP?

I mean, the CCP has 70 million members, its certainly not a one-man show nowdays, i wonder where the real power is?

I think that the CCP would have factions wouldn't it?

So, we we speaking of the CCP, are we condenming the insitution or the people? and which people?


You know exactly which gang of crooks I'm talking about. When I criticise the U.S. Republican Party, do you think I'm talking about RNC member Mary Bloggs in Virginia?



Also, i think that the analogy of whether or not China would've being better under Chiang or Mao or Neither shouldn't be overstated. China would obviousely be better now if it actually embraced the "renewel" during the latter stages of the Qing dynasty just like Japan did during its "renewel" period.


I'm not saying the KMT were angels either. You know from our past debates that I criticise them and their crooked, violent ways just as freely. This is not a "what could have been" issue, it's a "what happened and what is happening now" discussion, and in terms of both its historical and present actions, the CCP is rotten to the core. But if you want to compare the KMT to the CCP, then the real-world models are in place for easy comparison: Taiwan vs China. Despite their violent, corrupt and oppressive past, the KMT eventually evolved and Taiwan became a free democracy. The CCP however... History has proven the KMT the moral victors.

And Taiwan evolved from an oppressive fascist government into a free democracy in three easy steps:

1. 1986 Pres. Chiang Ching-kuo, the son of Chiang Kai-shek, decided to open up the political system of Taiwan.

2. 1986 The Democratic Progressive Party was established in opposition to the Nationalist Party and advocated formal independence from China.

3. 1987 Jul 14, Taiwan ended 37 years of martial law.

See? It's not so hard. And even the uneducated, illiterate bing lang farmers were allowed to vote.
And the qi gong crazies, whom your beloved CCP demonizes as evil death cultists and terrorists, were allowed to practice their mumbo-jumbo in peace too. In fact, I went and saw one when I was in Taiwan and he fixed a back problem I had using massage and bone manipulation, whereas three Western doctors told me I required spinal surgery. But I digress...


All we can deal with now is things within our control.


If you're Chinese, nothing is in your control except the power to make money (if you're middle-class or higher).


For example, the issues of Tibet, Xinjiang, Siberia, Taiwan being annexed from the latter stages of the Qing dynasty was what led Dr. Sun Yat-Sen to fame and the downfall of the Qing dynasty.

Dr. Sun was a true Nationalist and if he had stayed in power, you can bet your life that not one peace of Chinese land would've being given away. His a revolutionary nationalist.

He also believed in to much religion and superstition being harmful (at the time, buddhism). The CCP has actually implemented some of his policies and ideas such as the Three-Gorges Dam, which was original Dr. Sun's idea.


Come on, rapier. Sun may have believed in a unified China, but conjecturing that rule under Sun would have been as bad as rule under Mao and Deng is just silly. Somehow I don't think Dr. Sun would have sent Red Guards to torture Tibetan monks by ramming cattle-prods down their throats, nor would he have instituted such maniacal, murderous policies as the Great Proletarian Cultural Abomination and the Great Leap Backward, or run over students with tanks, etc etc and so on and so forth 20 pages of atrocities later...*phew, out of breath* Sun was a Christian and he believed in the American political system and the dream of China unified under a democracy. He was also consistently voted into the positions positions of power which he held. I believe the CCP should give up the roost, but I've never said that China would be better off under the KMT. However, considering the CCP's record, combined with your nightmarish vision of Sun's rule, then perhaps I was wrong...

[edit on 2005-8-6 by wecomeinpeace]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 11:25 PM
link   
wecomeinpeace, i think there is a misunderstanding there.

I never said that Sun's reign would've being as bad as the the "great leap forward" or the "red guard" revolutions. What i meant was that under Sun, he would not have "given up" or relinquished Chinese (Qing) territory, ie. Tibet, Taiwan.

The subsequent rule might've be alot better, sure. (Of course, if Sun survived, then Taiwan would not have being an issue).

P.S - (Last post for a while, new week starting, falling behind in assignments, also need to do CV for part-time job).

Cheers



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 11:32 PM
link   

Originally posted by rapier28
wecomeinpeace, i think there is a misunderstanding there.


No, no misunderstanding. I know what you meant, but I developed the point further to state that even if your theory were correct and Sun insisted on the annexation of Tibet and Xin Jiang, it would be nothing like the bloody methodology of the CCP. I believe Sun was a good man and a statesman and he would have reached his goals by more acceptable methods.

Good luck with Uni and the job-hunting, mate.



[edit on 2005-8-6 by wecomeinpeace]



posted on Aug, 6 2005 @ 11:46 PM
link   

Originally posted by rapier28
P.S - (Last post for a while, new week starting, falling behind in assignments, also need to do CV for part-time job).

Good luck with both.


Look forward to when you have some more time to spend with us, I always have fun chatting with you.



posted on Aug, 7 2005 @ 12:19 AM
link   

Originally posted by Duzey
OK, I did the math and it's a little under 5.5%. Now they just have to double the party membership and stop sending people to reform through labour camps for their religious beliefs.
See, it won't be as hard as you think.



Considering the family (husband/wife,parents,son/daughter) of CCP members and the entry level of CCP, Communist Youngth Union which consisted 75% of Chinese students, the percentage of firm supporter of CCP might be up to 30-40%. Also many guys might doesn't mind which party leads China at all. So it makes no sence if only considering the number of CCP members.

And I really doubt the number of persons who quit CCP are real. I have asked many Chinese people and none of them believe there are 5 million people, as the guys from FaLunGong claim, quit the CCP.

One more interesting thing I just read an article from many Chinese websites in China, North American and Australia : The previous China diplomat Mr.Chen was being opposed and protested by many Chinese oversea students and immigrants when he gave a speech in Melbourne, Australia few days ago.
I also noticed that these days millions of Chinese people left their messages in the BBS, forum , saying that Mr. Chen is absolutly a traitor to China and should be sentenced to death. If Mr. Chen dare go back to China, they would like to kill him themselves.




top topics



 
2
<< 4  5  6    8 >>

log in

join