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has any one seen..Demon's?

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posted on May, 3 2005 @ 05:52 AM
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how is this person acting now?
if it was a demon how do you think it got there???




posted on May, 3 2005 @ 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by moonbeam13
how is this person acting now?
if it was a demon how do you think it got there???


The traces are still there. Didn't apologize for what was said, only how it was said. I'm not saying the person was possessed necessarily, but rather cheered on for going ballistic and caused a great deal more damage because of it. It has spead like a disease affecting at least 2 more people. Dealing with the fallout currently...

[edit on 3-5-2005 by saint4God]



posted on May, 3 2005 @ 08:17 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
One does not need to be under any influence of substance to see demons, however I return with more indirect evidence:

After this weekend I can confidently say I was with someone who, under excessive substance, turned to some very dark actions. Some of it was easily explainable - repression, frustration, anger, lack of communication and understanding. It was as if all these things were magnified by said demons, cheering this person on in the background.


what you saw was basically a mental snap. what were you doing allowing them to abuse drugs like that? The subconsious mind can appear to be very evil when viewed by the conscious mind of another. what you saw wasn't a demon cheering your friend on. what you saw was the result of an imbalance in that person's system trying to correct itself. It is known that you cant have good without evil. Perhaps this person was trying to be completely good, and it was the darkness within them that had finally been able to emerge in a negative way (no, darkness is not always negative despite popular belief) once that persons mental stability had been conquered.

drugs arent a gateway to demons, only to insanity.

[edit on 3-5-2005 by Annunaki]



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 04:48 AM
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Insanity is not always evil, yet drugs can truly bring out the worst in people. Mentally disabled people could be called "insane" yet that's a whole different way of being insane than the state that drugs can get you in.

I too believe that when you take alcohol or drugs, you are granting demons rights and grip on your life.
I think it may have to do with the conscious choice of taking drugs, the conscious choice of giving away control that gives evil entities the right to influence and even steer you as you are under influence of that drug.

If you do not believe in a spiritual world with 2 sides, then I understand you believe only in the physical effects of drugs and alcohol.
The way that hardrugs-addicts roll into this downwards spiral of living, in the end degrading themselves on every level, becoming prostitutes, hearing voices, becoming paranoid, and eventually die from an overdose or suicide, after hurting and kicking away every loved one in their life.

I think that's the ultimate way for a demon to ruin someones life.



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 06:32 AM
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Jakko i agree with you. but do you know why it is. well simple if you think about you are weak and your spirit is weak and unable to fight when you are under the influence so what is happening to you physicaly happens to you astraly too



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 07:21 AM
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Originally posted by Annunaki
what you saw was basically a mental snap.


And the cause or promoter of this 'mental snap' was....what?


Originally posted by Annunaki
what were you doing allowing them to abuse drugs like that?


Ouch. That hurt. You're right. I didn't want to be "that kind of Christian" to *kabash* the party. My confidence in the situation being in control was grossly over-estimated. I hadn't experienced this from this person before, whom I've known my whole life, so I was taken quite off guard. Lesson learned. Let my experience and your calling out of my lack of responsibility serve as a warning to others approaching this kind of situation.


Originally posted by Annunaki
The subconsious mind can appear to be very evil when viewed by the conscious mind of another. what you saw wasn't a demon cheering your friend on. what you saw was the result of an imbalance in that person's system trying to correct itself.


A physical lashing out to exercise the poison from the body makes sense. So...how is trying to cause others mental harm a correction of imbalance? This doesn't make sense to me. Besides, afterwards I'd found out this indeed was harboured thoughts and feelings, it just was expressed in a very, very ugly way. The person's evil 'cheering section' was at it's loudest at this moment.


Originally posted by Annunaki
It is known that you cant have good without evil.


Our inability to recognize good without evil is a human shortcoming, not a universal law.


Originally posted by Annunaki
Perhaps this person was trying to be completely good, and it was the darkness within them that had finally been able to emerge in a negative way (no, darkness is not always negative despite popular belief) once that persons mental stability had been conquered.


I believe there may have been a good way of expressing it. The problem is the motivation was selfish (which is not good) and the delivery was malicious.


Originally posted by Annunaki
drugs arent a gateway to demons, only to insanity.


For me to say there's a human explanation to everything is to deny my explicit experiences with the supernatural. It's like watching Scooby Doo and applying the "projector behind the bookcase" theory to reality. I like the show as much as anyone, but we need to check behind the bookcase and see if there's actually a physical projector.



Apologies for being a little abstract because I'm leaving out a lot of detail, but I certainly do appreciate being able to discuss it and explore possibilities.


Pray, train, study.
God bless.

[edit on 4-5-2005 by saint4God]



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 07:28 AM
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Originally posted by Jakko
Insanity is not always evil, yet drugs can truly bring out the worst in people. Mentally disabled people could be called "insane" yet that's a whole different way of being insane than the state that drugs can get you in.

I too believe that when you take alcohol or drugs, you are granting demons rights and grip on your life.
I think it may have to do with the conscious choice of taking drugs, the conscious choice of giving away control that gives evil entities the right to influence and even steer you as you are under influence of that drug.

If you do not believe in a spiritual world with 2 sides, then I understand you believe only in the physical effects of drugs and alcohol.
The way that hardrugs-addicts roll into this downwards spiral of living, in the end degrading themselves on every level, becoming prostitutes, hearing voices, becoming paranoid, and eventually die from an overdose or suicide, after hurting and kicking away every loved one in their life.

I think that's the ultimate way for a demon to ruin someones life.


Great perspective Jakko. I think you've helped me understand this phenomena better. I have had alcohol on occasion but not to the point where I was ever vomitting in the toilet. It the room starts moving without me, I stop. I always to go sleep sober. Also, an equal amount of water with whatever drink I have (to prevent liver damage/dehydration). I speak a little less literally on bloggy: blogs.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 08:00 AM
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I don't think I have ever seen one. Who knows since they can disguise
themselves as 'angels of light'.

But I have FELT them in three different places. Definately.

#1 - Japan. I worked in the Chapel at Camp Zama. It had something
in it that HATED Americans. It never bothered the Japanese folks but
it absolutely hated the Americans who worked there. I worked in that
building for three years. Even the manly-man fellow from NYC who
thought he was the coolest thing on the planet was scared to death
to be in the building alone. HATE HATE HATE. When it was beside you
you couldn't see it, but you felt the hate directed towards YOU.

I don't know if it was demons, or damned souls of Japanese soldiers
from the war and they hated the Americans who were their enemies...
The spot was a Japanese camp before the Americans won the war.
Either way .. it was pure HATE.

#2 - Hawaii. Kona. A hotel there on the water. We stayed in this
hotel that wasn't too far from a place that had human sacrifices. There
was something in the room that HATED. The hate wasn't directed at
us .. it was just hate. It stayed in the hall and the bathroom. It didn't
go into the kitchen or the living room. I don't know why it was in just
those areas. Perhaps a haunted of a damned soul?? Demons can go
anywhere .... but it was hate and it was in that area of the room. We
were there 3 days. I had the worst headach of my life on that island -
Hawaii, the big island. I don't know if it was that room with the spook,
or if it was the VOG that covered the area (volcanic fog). UGH.

#3 - typing on this computer a few months ago. I was discussing
a thing having to do with the occult. I wasnt doing it. I was just
talking about the process of a certain occult thing (having to do with
mirrors) when I suddenly felt over my left shoulder a very interested
'thing'. It was very glad that I was interested and was hoping that I
would tell the other person how to do this certain occult thing. It too
HATED but without hate directed at anyone in particular. It was too
'happy' (wrong word but that's the closest I can come) that I was
discussing the mirror occult thing. I quickly erased what I was going
to say and said outloud (without acknowledging it's presence) that I
wouldn't now, or ever, tell anyone any process of how to do that with
mirrors. 'IT' left. So did the hate and the malicious glee it had with it.

So ... never seen any that I know of. Have felt a few though.



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 03:21 PM
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Ingesting psychotropic, hallucinatory, or any other mind altering substance does not neccessitate "giving" up control as many have suggested. Addiction is the act of giving up control.Shamanistic practices are usually held under the strictest controlled environments. Let me also mention that the whole notion of "addiction" is a rather recent phenomenon as well.

I am not saying that substances are NEEDED to see the "spiritual" realm per-se, but all shamans throughout time have used mind altering substances to communicate with the "spirits" or "spirit-realm". Shamans did not even ingest said substances on a regular, or habitual basis; but on a RITUALISTIC basis. It was only done on certain occassions, under certain circumstances, & for specific purposes.

If one chooses to view the "spirits" or the "spirit-world" that shamans connect with as "evil" or "demonic", then that is your right by all means. But it seemed to work for them for thousands, upon thousands of years before we learned to "just say no".

If one chooses to ingest certain substances for spiritual purposes, I do not see anything wrong with that either. From mushrooms, to Ayuahuasca the reasons, and effects are as varied as the cultures of the world. Just do not forget that shamans did not take substances to "party" or to have a good time, which is what most in the world do now-a-days.

When one ingest certain things, one is able to see reality in a different light, that can not be disputed. Modern science simply refers to it as "intoxication", or "inebriation". Choose to label it what you want, neither Shamans nor Scientist dispute that it changes ones perception.

I have had the fortunate experience of ingesting peyote with a shaman, or guide, if you will. There was no madness, no evil, no demons, and I learned things about myself, and the nature of the universe that I can not even describe here. My circumstance was under strict control of a guide, and for a specific purpose, so perhaps that is why I had no ill effects, who knows?

All that considered, why then should we be surprised to see madness resulting from the indulgence of substances that have always been meant to be taken with the utmost spiritual reverence?

Perhaps it is this flippant interaction with the spiritual world that causes all these problems that soo many mention? The shamans realized what they were dealing with, and treated it accordingly, complete with protectionist rituals et al. Those who fail to do so, will suffer the same grave consequences that the shamans went to great lengths to avoid.



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 04:36 PM
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I don't look at the entire world of spirits as evil.
I just know that the spirits that belong to God are angels, and that those will only do things that God wants them to do.

You pray to God, not to Gods angels.
If you try to "contact" angels through prayers or shamanistic rituals, the spirits that will answer you are not Gods spirits (they would only appear through prayers to God if God sends them), which means they are demons or spirits that fall under the authority of the devil.

I believe all ways of contact with the "dead" and paranormal ways of talking to "being" are ways to be in contact with demons.
These demons do know a lot about all of you and will try to appear as if they are innocent or as if they have good intentions, but those are lies.

Christianity is the only religion in which there is a clear explanation for every paranormal and weird phenomena in the world, from paranormal games to ufo's, christianity has a reasonable explanation for why these things are seen.

If you are not a christian it may seem as if christianity is just trying to come up with some way to explain everything, but I think if you truly read up on this subject, you will find that the christian explanation is truly not just "some way to explain it", often the christian theory behind such subjects make more sense than the "general" theory or opinion on things. (as with ufos)



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 05:31 PM
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Originally posted by Jakko
I don't look at the entire world of spirits as evil.
I just know that the spirits that belong to God are angels, and that those will only do things that God wants them to do.


This is only a partial truth, as even your "devil" is doing gods will as well. Even Demons if you believe in them are part of your Gods plan. If you believe in an omniscient, omnipresent God, then you must realize that EVERYTHING, from the devil, to his demons, to what you coin "angels" are all doing Gods Will. By the very definition of an omniscient God one could argue, and would be hard pressed to find erudite rebuttal, that it is impossible to act outside of gods will. Would you not agree?

Basically if God is omniscient, and created everything, then he knew before creation what every living, and non-living thing would do, thereby making it impossible for ANY entity to act outside of the creators will. Do you get my point?


You pray to God, not to Gods angels.
If you try to "contact" angels through prayers or shamanistic rituals, the spirits that will answer you are not Gods spirits (they would only appear through prayers to God if God sends them), which means they are demons or spirits that fall under the authority of the devil.


I am assuming that this is addressed to me, however I never mentioned praying to anything, perhaps I am just making an "as* of you and me" though?
Not for one second trying to claim that contact with other "realms" at times does not include prayers, incantations, etc, etc..However you must realize that many shamanistic practices that I am aware of DO pray to the supreme creator for guidance, and not his cohorts. Once again not saying the opposite does not occur.


I believe all ways of contact with the "dead" and paranormal ways of talking to "being" are ways to be in contact with demons.
These demons do know a lot about all of you and will try to appear as if they are innocent or as if they have good intentions, but those are lies.

See here it gets a bit tricky (semantical even). The very definition of "paranormal" means Beyond the range of normal experience, or scientific studies.
dictionary.reference.com...
So etymologically speaking, I could argue that your belief in Christ, falls in with the same "paranormal" (as you put it) beliefs as mine. I am not here, however to argue the validity of any religion.As I said in my earlier post, if some choose to view the "other realm" (for lack of a better word) as evil or demonic or whatever, then that is by all means your right.

One question though. You say you think all things "paranormal" are perpetrated by demons, or spirits of your "devil" , no? Well ...if they (demons)are able to operate on this otherworldly plane, then why can not your gods angles? Seems to me that if your "demons" are out there playing, then the angels must be there as well, no? Or at least capable.


Christianity is the only religion in which there is a clear explanation for every paranormal and weird phenomena in the world, from paranormal games to ufo's, christianity has a reasonable explanation for why these things are seen.

As previously stated I feel everyone is entitled to their own beliefs........Then again an old quote comes to mind ( I forget who)

"No man is entitled to his own opinion, until he has first acquainted himself with the facts" ( if anyone recognizes this quote I would really appreciate a reminder of who said it)


If you are not a christian it may seem as if christianity is just trying to come up with some way to explain everything, but I think if you truly read up on this subject, you will find that the christian explanation is truly not just "some way to explain it", often the christian theory behind such subjects make more sense than the "general" theory or opinion on things. (as with ufos)


No I am not, and I can not truthfully say I agree with the above statement. But I am more than familiar with your mythos, as I am doing my post graduate work in comparitive theology, and I also have studied ethnobotany, which is why I gave my views on the ingestion of substances, and how they relate to spirituality. Thanks for your input anyways though.

Ayrk



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 11:41 PM
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Originally posted by Vash
i do not knwo how many have seen them but i have my hole life from the day i was born tell now and forever will tell the day i die i was wondering if any one whoudl be willing to tell me what they think of demons and what they might look liek to that preson for i think a presons deep fear's change what a demon or hell spawn will look like from preson to preson...



I have not seen them. Oddly, they only seem to appear to people who already believe in them.

A lost close friend of mine, who happened at the time to be a religious whacko, claimed to have brought a demon home from her sister's house. This particular spook was basically a small floating orange orb with red eyes. It never appeared when I was at her house. Hmmm.



posted on May, 4 2005 @ 11:47 PM
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Originally posted by moonbeam13
Jakko i agree with you. but do you know why it is. well simple if you think about you are weak and your spirit is weak and unable to fight when you are under the influence so what is happening to you physicaly happens to you astraly too


i too agree. We are weak as it is. Our mind is in a consicous struggle with the unconsious mind, and it's lack of inhibitions. Let drugs get in the way, and you let the more powerful aspect win.

That which wins from power is not the righteous one, but the most malevolent one. doesnt make it right or wrong, but it is something to consider. this is true for war as well



posted on May, 5 2005 @ 03:06 AM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin

This is only a partial truth, as even your "devil" is doing gods will as well.


No not at all. The devil has his own choice and will, and is just a powerfull entity with the goal to be on the same level as God. Did God know this when He created the devil? I do not know.
If God created the devil as a part of our universe and creation, then surely I think God knew there was a chance that the devil would rebel against God. If God created the devil outside of creation as we know it, making God and the devil both exclusive to our world and dimension and time, there is nothing we can say about wether or not God knew this would happen or not.


Even Demons if you believe in them are part of your Gods plan. If you believe in an omniscient, omnipresent God, then you must realize that EVERYTHING, from the devil, to his demons, to what you coin "angels" are all doing Gods Will. By the very definition of an omniscient God one could argue, and would be hard pressed to find erudite rebuttal, that it is impossible to act outside of gods will. Would you not agree?


I disagree strongly. The whole point of creation is that we (humans) and they (fallen angels and the devil) have a choice to do what we want. No longer attached to Gods will. Even though God may be able to somehow calculate what we are going to do (He created us after all) it still means we are individuals with an individual choice.
Freedom is a very important part of Creation. So important even that when having freedom means we will make a mess on earth, God will still give us the freedom of choice, despite of all the sinning and crap we do.

God didn't want to make robots, He created humans with the ability to go against Gods will.


Basically if God is omniscient, and created everything, then he knew before creation what every living, and non-living thing would do, thereby making it impossible for ANY entity to act outside of the creators will. Do you get my point?


Yeah I get it, but you are mixing up two things I think.
First there is the fact that God is wiser than we can comprehend and that -because of His wisdom- God can actually "calculate" what our actions and choices will be.

This is something else than constantly doing Gods will.
I know it's hard to grasp that we STILL have total freedom even God may know what we are going to do, but that's just another mystery about God.



I am assuming that this is addressed to me, however I never mentioned praying to anything, perhaps I am just making an "as* of you and me" though?
Not for one second trying to claim that contact with other "realms" at times does not include prayers, incantations, etc, etc..However you must realize that many shamanistic practices that I am aware of DO pray to the supreme creator for guidance, and not his cohorts. Once again not saying the opposite does not occur.


The supreme Creator can not be "called" like that unless it is 100% clear who this supreme creator is.
Muslims would say Allah is the supreme creator, while I think when you praise Allah you are praising Hubal aka Baal. ( answering-islam.org.uk... )



See here it gets a bit tricky (semantical even). The very definition of "paranormal" means Beyond the range of normal experience, or scientific studies.
dictionary.reference.com...
So etymologically speaking, I could argue that your belief in Christ, falls in with the same "paranormal" (as you put it) beliefs as mine.


Of course you may say that, you are not a christian. That doesn't change thr truth for me though.


I am not here, however to argue the validity of any religion.As I said in my earlier post, if some choose to view the "other realm" (for lack of a better word) as evil or demonic or whatever, then that is by all means your right.


In all objectivity, IF there is one true religion, and a spiritual world with two sides, wouldn't it be logical that the "evil" side would try to inspire humanity to create all kinds of religions and beliefs in order for them to stay away from the true religion?


One question though. You say you think all things "paranormal" are perpetrated by demons, or spirits of your "devil" , no? Well ...if they (demons)are able to operate on this otherworldly plane, then why can not your gods angles? Seems to me that if your "demons" are out there playing, then the angels must be there as well, no? Or at least capable.


Angels do operate on earth, but because they do Gods will they are not as visiable or noticable as demons that have more freedom to do what they want.

There is one very big difference between God and the devil, between angels and demons, and that is that God has said he is truthfull and righteous, which means He has his own rules and laws to obey, or else He wouldn't be righteous.
The devil on the other hand, does not have to be truthfull or righteous, and has no laws or rules to obey, besides the static universal laws of the spiritual world that apply to every being.

This gives the devil somewhat more freedom to "mess around" because the devil can break promises, betray humans, betray demons, etc.



As previously stated I feel everyone is entitled to their own beliefs........Then again an old quote comes to mind ( I forget who)

"No man is entitled to his own opinion, until he has first acquainted himself with the facts" ( if anyone recognizes this quote I would really appreciate a reminder of who said it)


For christians this kind of logic is kind of bittersweet.
Of course everyone is entitled to their own belief, but when you see someone making a mistake, and suffer because of this mistake, it is just reasonable to want to try to get this someone to find the right way.



posted on May, 5 2005 @ 06:37 AM
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since i do alot of angel work and since i can see angels and that i beleive i can talk as an expert on angels. they are as much gods servants as we are. angels are beings of light but it is not just light they radiate, a demon posing as angel is easly spotted by one thing your feelings. they give off an uncomfortable feeling, that is why intoxicants are also bad because your feelings toward things like that become numb so you cant tell.



posted on May, 5 2005 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by moonbeam13
since i do alot of angel work and since i can see angels and that i beleive i can talk as an expert on angels. they are as much gods servants as we are. angels are beings of light but it is not just light they radiate, a demon posing as angel is easly spotted by one thing your feelings. they give off an uncomfortable feeling, that is why intoxicants are also bad because your feelings toward things like that become numb so you cant tell.


That explains alot. a few hundred years ago, the human race would have been incapable of such detection. This may be a sign that mankind is entering a new era of mental evolution. You must question yourself not with "is that bad because I dont like the feeling it gives me" but rather "what is it within my own mind that invokes such a feeling". The definition of an angel or demon has been static for nearly a thousand years, but the spiritual perception of the human race has since changed. Do not let others define for you what a demon is. Everything that invokes a strange feeling is not inherently bad. It may just be invoking a feeling you have never felt before, and thus, it is masked by fear. beware of jumping to conlusions too fast, because an angel may be what you are shunning. But again, do not define angels and demons in a biblical sense, because you can easily fool yourself this way. think with your own mind, not the collective mind of others.



posted on May, 6 2005 @ 12:16 PM
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there is a certain feeling that eniminates (cant spell) from those that would cause harm, its like a sixth sense you can fell something is not right. well if human evilution is real (i think it is) then it would make sense that humans are still evolving as evoloution never stops.

(sorry feeling dizzy so spelling may be a bit off)



posted on May, 6 2005 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by Jakko
No not at all. The devil has his own choice and will, and is just a powerfull entity with the goal to be on the same level as God. Did God know this when He created the devil? I do not know.


I said repeatedly that I did not wish to debate religion with you, yet you keep trying to get me to though........Why is that? Do you honestly think that you are going to "cyber-convert-me". I am glad you have faith, I am glad that it is working for you.

Just a few points you should ponder as to your above statements.

First you lay claim to a belief in an omnipresent, omniscient, deity...then you question whether or not this omniscient being would know what the result of it's action's would be? Am I the only one who finds the fault in this?
dictionary.reference.com...

I also find it particularly interesting that you claim your devil to be "just as powerful" as your God....You ascribe the same power to the devil that you do to your god? Thereby transfiguring the "devil" into an equal? Which if he was an equal of God, would make him also a God. Am I the only one who finds the fallacy in this as well?
dictionary.reference.com...


I can not think of any passage in "the scriptures" that would support either of your above claims, nor do I know any christian who has ever dared utter such a sentiment(and I have known plenty)

I do know where that does sound familiar from though....oh yeah that's right I already mentioned it......zoroastrianism, yeah....
Just as you are awaare of the pagan roots of Islam, do not be soo blind for one second to think that Christianity is the "pure white dove" of the worlds religions, untainted by pagan influences over the millinae.

home.btconnect.com...
home.btconnect.com...

Once again thank you though.



posted on May, 6 2005 @ 05:27 PM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
I said repeatedly that I did not wish to debate religion with you, yet you keep trying to get me to though........Why is that? Do you honestly think that you are going to "cyber-convert-me". I am glad you have faith, I am glad that it is working for you.


If you don't wish to debate religion, don't freaking reply to the post in which I talk about religion to begin with.
Ah you can give your opinion on religion and then I am supposed to shut up because you do not wish to debate religion?

Am I allowed to reply to the content of the rest of your post by the way?
Just checking.



posted on May, 6 2005 @ 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin

First you lay claim to a belief in an omnipresent, omniscient, deity...then you question whether or not this omniscient being would know what the result of it's action's would be? Am I the only one who finds the fault in this?


What makes you think you even slightly understand the terms you are throwing around so lightly.
Even the concept of God being outside of time as we know it really goes too far for the average human to base any quick conclusions on.
I am not saying I want to remain ignorant regarding these quesitons, I am just saying that I question wether you know what you are talking about when you see "faults" everywhere.


I also find it particularly interesting that you claim your devil to be "just as powerful" as your God....


Where was that?
I said God created the devil.


You ascribe the same power to the devil that you do to your god? Thereby transfiguring the "devil" into an equal? Which if he was an equal of God, would make him also a God. Am I the only one who finds the fallacy in this as well?


No you just didn't really get it, that's something else.



I can not think of any passage in "the scriptures" that would support either of your above claims, nor do I know any christian who has ever dared utter such a sentiment(and I have known plenty)


Hmm once again, I am not sure what claims I made that make you say this, I didn't say they are equal in power, neither did I say God can or can not predict his own actions, I just I don't know.



Just as you are awaare of the pagan roots of Islam, do not be soo blind for one second to think that Christianity is the "pure white dove" of the worlds religions, untainted by pagan influences over the millinae.


Oh not that discussion again...

Religion X had a sacrifice too, religion Y had a virgin birth too, so christianity must have stolen it!
Do you have any real links? I know I do.


[edit on 6-5-2005 by Jakko]




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