The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Okay, i'm a recent convert to Theravada Buddhism, but before that i didn't realize exactly how much of your religion was being forced on me.

Let's hear it then...

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
-i was forced to say God if i chose to say the pledge of allegiance

You were forced to if you chose to? I don't follow. Either you have a choice or you were forced to, yes? In public school growing up, I omitted saying "under God" and no-one had issue with it. Was yours a public school? What were the consequences to omitting "under God"?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
-i realized exactly how many of the portrayals of "wholesome" families were Christian, and all the disfunctional families were nonChristian

One thing I've come to learn is there are a lot of wholesome families that are Christian so I don't think that half is inaccurate. Disfunctionality of families doesn't seem based on religion to me. Can you provide some examples?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
-whenever i watch the news issues concerning Christianity come to the forefront, but they ignore the more pressing story of genocide in Sudan.

Such as? I find the genocide in Sudan very serious and am aware of it and the lack of the U.S. and Europe doing anything about it. This is a geopolitical problem...unless you think sending in an army of unarmed missionaries has a snowball's chance at winning the fight.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
-we've been forced to believe things are immoral if someone says it is against Jesus.

How have you been "forced" to believe? I'm unaware of this mind-control mechanism. If it does exist, I'd be even more surprised to learn why the government doesn't own the patent.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
-Christians need no proof for religion, but i have to explain my Buddhist belief to anyone that hasn't already had that discussion with me

I am Christian and required proof to believe. Hopefully by reading through the boards you'll see just how many times any Christian has to explain what they believe and clear up misconceptions. This thread is a great start, beginning at page 1.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i challenge you to go up to a nonChristian and ask them "What do most Christians believe in?" and most of them will give you a fairly accurate assessment of mainstream Christianity.

And yet miss the one main message of the whole Bible. How does that happen? Again, a lot of misconceptions about the faith. So we both have a lot of explaining to do.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
then go up to a Christian and ask "What do [Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Scientologists, etc] believe in?" and most of them will you horrible innaccurate portrayls of other religions, and some will get kind of close, and the rest will simply say that they don't know.

And? I'm sure if you went to a predominantly Bhuddist country you'd experience the reverse. Are you saying you're upset because your beliefs aren't popular?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
is that not evidence that Christianity is being forced down this nation's throat?

Nope, but if you can answer some of my questions, we may be getting closer.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
if there is free will, than why is there only one path to God, enlightenment, paradise, or whathaveyou?

I think because this is a right answer and a wrong answer. Because there is good and then there is evil. We have one left hand and one right hand. We live in a world of opposites. Mankind is the only one that muddles that up.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
why would such a being give us free will just to see how many of us fall in line?

Because He loves us so much that he leaves the choice to us. Otherwise we'd be a machine. Would you want to marry a robot that says "I love you" when you push a button? Or work with a doll that says "You're wonderful!" whenever you get done with the day? The true test of love is in the one that has the option to love you.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
how can you endorse the hypocratic viewpoint of "God gave you free will so you can believe in this."?

I don't understand the question.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i would just like to see why Christianity is right, and why all other religions are wrong, but for the sake of this thread just prove why Theravada Buddhism is wrong and why Christianity is right.

Um, I'm not sure what you're looking for (other than a fight). You want me to show why your choice is incorrect and why mine is correct? I don't foresee any understanding nor change of heart coming from that.

[edit on 5-12-2005 by saint4God]

when i made the request for proof that my religion is wrong, and yours is right, i was trying to prove that you can't prove one religion is better or truer than any other.

i think everyone should stop condemning others for their beliefs and just keep their religious and spiritual choices private, unless they are actually discussing faith and philosophy. we aren't going to get anywhere using the blanket statement of "you're wrong, and you're going to hell if you don't believe the same as i do"

if there truely is a God, why would there be any doubt as to what is the true religion? it just shows you how complex spirituality truely is.

also, saint4god, there is either the God you speak of, or free will. a friend of mine once gave this argument:

god is omniscient, omnipotent, and has ultimate-wisdom correct? this supreme wisdom and omniscience allows him to know and see all, he knows our action of the past, present and future. our "choices" have already been layed out in the eyes of god, seeing that he knows all, and if we do something different, well god isnt omniscient is he? or maybe, if we do something different god knows that we changed, so it falls back into line that free will is an illusion. god isnt holding out hand forcing us do these things, but he knows what will happen, it isnt our own will of what we do, since god has already planned it out for us and we are puppets to him. either there is free will in the world where humans do as they please, or god has destined us to a path where we make "pseudo-choices" which appear to be free, but are actually planned out in god's eyes.

so which is it, is there your God, or is there free will?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
either there is free will in the world where humans do as they please, or god has destined us to a path where we make "pseudo-choices" which appear to be free, but are actually planned out in god's eyes.

Think of it this way:

You are going to play in a soccer tournament in two weeks. I find a time machine, and go two weeks into the future. I see your soccer game, and see the outcome of it. I then go back to your space time continuum and act as if nothing had happened. Does my knowledge of the outcome of the game affect the actions that will lead to such an outcome?

If God knows the choices you will make with your free will, it does not in any way inhibit your free will. If God suddenly lost omniscience and did not know the choices you would make, would you then have authentic free will?

it's not the same as assuming you created the entire scenario, including soccer, grass, even down to atoms, and already seeing what would happen before you started creating.

and how can free will be predestined?


[edit on 5-12-2005 by madnessinmysoul]

Quantum theory actually holds a sub-theory on something very similar. Quantum mechanics holds a principle called Heisenberg uncertainty principle. This principle establishes for randomness, true randomness, in our previously clockwork universe. There no longer is a 100% chance that, when this force hits this force, this action will result; there's just a probability that will happen. Woah. In my opinion, Heisenberg's uncertainty prinviple clinches the free will doctrine in my mind, as science and the Bible go hand in hand.

There are several theories that stem from this. One such theory is that, for every possible action a particle can do, for every location it could be at, the universe branches. Then there are multiple universes, each with a scenario where that particle went one way or another, or what kind of spin that particle took after some form of decay or whatever.

Along those lines, what if God were to be able to see time in such a sense. He elicits the Big Bang or however He began Creation, and already knows every possible end result, because He's so unfathomably smart. He can see a universe based on one possible action through to finish. Then He leaves that action, on the macro level, up to us. He knows what will be the result of every possible action we perform at this very moment, but He leaves the decision on which path to take to us.

all the uncertainty principle states is that you can't know the exact location and exact velocity of every single particle in the universe...
it doesn't imply true randomness, just uncertainty

[edit on 5-12-2005 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer
You are going to play in a soccer tournament in two weeks. I find a time machine, and go two weeks into the future. I see your soccer game, and see the outcome of it. I then go back to your space time continuum and act as if nothing had happened. Does my knowledge of the outcome of the game affect the actions that will lead to such an outcome?

No, but your ability to travel into the future, observe it, and then return to watch the game play out just like you saw it does indeed mean there's no such thing as free will. If there were, you could not return and know how the game would turn out, because it could be different this time (due to free will).

Now the second half of the dillema - suppose the game did turn out differently because of free will. This is problematic as well, since there is no reason for it to turn out differently. Free will then just becomes synonomous with 'random will'. Well ok, that might be free, but if it's random, you still don't have ultimate control over it.

Free will is an inconsitent combination of words in the sense of 'free from causality'.

Originally posted by junglejake
Along those lines, what if God were to be able to see time in such a sense. He elicits the Big Bang or however He began Creation, and already knows every possible end result, because He's so unfathomably smart. He can see a universe based on one possible action through to finish. Then He leaves that action, on the macro level, up to us. He knows what will be the result of every possible action we perform at this very moment, but He leaves the decision on which path to take to us.

*hits print, puts it in a frame and mounts it on the wall*

*steps back, looks at it, adjusts* Perfect.

He who has wisdom, let him speak. He who seeks understanding, let him listen.

I find it quite amazing, and with much gall that Christianity can't have itself displayed anywhere in public, but all the other things going on in this society that I find to be offensive I am told to suck it up! Back on those 10 Commandments on display, how dare we offend all those criminals and lawyers with thou shalt not steal, murder, commit adultery, bear false witness. No criminals or lawyers are guilty of these! Not to metion the rest of them! But here is the irony of it, even without them posted they are a law unto themselves in that they show the moral law is written in thier hearts because they violate those things contained in it. Just as in the days of Jesus, woe be unto the lawyers.

Originally posted by antigovFZ777
I dont know where else i can get this out, so i will do it here...

First of all, Christianity has obvious power with many things... And whether or not someone is Christian is totally their business, its their life... their choices and decisions.

One thing that pisses me off more than anything else is when one person ruins things for all of the rest. Using the ten commandments monument thing as an example, if someone isnt Christian, and they dont beleive what is said on that monument, DONT LOOK AT IT. Its not hard to turn the other way. not only that, it doesnt matter what religion you are, the ten commandments are great things for anyone to live by.

if someone was to move to a major hindu (Just using this as an example) area, and they complained about the religious monuments, the people there would tell them to deal with it, or leave. Thats how it should be everywhere. People should be allowed to beleive and worship whatever they want, wherever they want to. That monument is hurting NOBODY. Nobody is FORCED to look at it. People are so sensitive these days i cant stand it.



Freedom of religion means FREEDOM of religion.

Sorry if i messed up in a few places, im sure you can figure out my point.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
all the uncertainty principle states is that you can't know the exact location and exact velocity of every single particle in the universe...
it doesn't imply true randomness, just uncertainty

Not exactly. First, I'd like to point out that this element of the principle isn't paramount to my analogy, as I used a theory that was created as a result of the Uncertainty Principle. However, as I love talking about quantum physics, I'll tangent into that discussion

Following a strict Copenhagen model of the uncertainty principle (most physicists do), randomness is within the universe. The most well known analogy would be Schrodenger's cat.

You have an atom of radioactive material with a half-life of 1 hour. This means that, in one hour, there is a 50% chance that atom will break apart into beta decay, sending off a radioactive particle. You also have a detector surrounding this atom of radioactive material. The detector, when triggered, is set to open a vial of poison that will be released into a box containing a cat. This box is totally sealed, except for an opening where the poison flows. It is impossible to observe the status of the cat from the outside.

After an hour, is the cat alive or dead? We know where we stand that there is a 50% chance the cat is dead, and a 50% chance the cat is alive. So it could go either way, and according to the Copenhagen model, the cat at this point is both alive and dead. The only way we can know the state of that cat is by measuring it, thereby destroying the system.

This example isn't perfect, because we are trying to apply the macro to the micro. However, the Copenhagen model provides that the particle, or cat in this case, is in both states until measured in some way, be it through observation or interaction. Reality doesn't exist as we perceive it, but rather as a series of probabilities waiting to be tested.

There were some strong opponents to Copenhagen's model, including Einstein himself. He presented a very strong thought experiment to oppose Heisenberg and Bohr. It was a very strong case against the Copenhagen model...Until Heisenberg smashed Einstein's example's teeth on the curb.

The Quantum physical community has a pretty good understanding of what constitutes a random situation and what constitutes something else. That is actually how it was discovered that there is a propensity towards matter over anti-matter in energy conversions. It had seemed pretty random in particle accelerators until a trend emerged that (I believe this figure is right) 50.03% of the time matter is formed and 49.97% of the time anti-matter is formed. At the same time, though, when I have a high energy collision, what kind of particles will I have, matter or anti-matter? Probability states it will be matter, but the truth of it is that it's random.

Unless Einstein was right and there are underlying factors physics still hasn't come up with. And if Einstein is right, then, without God, we have no say whatsoever on our actions. It's all been predestined by the Big Bang.

Originally posted by ugm84
Back on those 10 Commandments on display, how dare we offend all those criminals and lawyers with thou shalt not steal, murder, commit adultery, bear false witness.

Now that there is funny.

Originally posted by ugm84
No criminals or lawyers are guilty of these! Not to metion the rest of them!

Ouch -_- . Crusade against lawyers? In the same catagory with criminals?

Originally posted by ugm84
Just as in the days of Jesus, woe be unto the lawyers.

I seem to remember something about judging people too (Matthew 7). Just trying to help out, friend.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.




[edit on 6-12-2005 by saint4God]

[edit on 6-12-2005 by saint4God]

There will always be someone that wants to do the abnormal ... Such as get married to the same sex person .... Now whether this is determining someone as evil or not ... Who is it for me to say ?? Just cause it makes my stomach uneasy ... when I see two guys kissing ... It is not my place to say anything .. NOw you can go down to the bible Belt in USA .. andhave peopel standing on the Street Corners with Microphones and Speakers screaming at the road ... But they really look like FOOLS !!! .... Honestly everyone has thier faults whether or not they think so or not .... it is and endless battle to say that you do not have any faults .... just let me talk to you spouse or children and they will let me know exactly what they think could be done BETTER .... But anyhow .... How do you determine ... What is a Sin and what is not .. Just cause it is in the Ten Commandments ?? What about other stuff .. What about listening to foul language music .. when you wake up with those words in your head .. or go to sleep with those words in your head is that WRONG .. Even better question is that a SIN ?? The only person you can hold accountable is yourself .. Unless you have children .... and then that is your resposibility as well ... That is what is wrong with most people that do the wrong things .. whether they be evil or Good .. A Thief is good for nothing .. they will steal a Nickel from you they will steal your Baby from you if the money is rite ... And they can't hold thierselves accoutable ... they will not teach thier kids to be accountable .... It will never cease .. The Evil in this world is just goign to get worse as the Evil people keep on Breeding ... I was thinking that if we killed everyone but me and a couple of Woman ... we could start all over ... But ... Then what would that make me ? =-) ... THE KING !!!! lol .. Anyways .. that will never happen noone seems to want to be a Martyr for me ... Funny all through out civilization there has only been one person that has HAD (NOT WANTED TO**FOR HE WAS HUMAN 2) DIE FOR ME !!

you're talking in cyclical contradiction. first you say we have free will, then you say everything was predestined due to the big bang.

you can't have it both ways!

-----------------------------------------------

sidenote

if christianity had an absolute power, why would there be so many forms of it, and so many contradictions within it. the only power i see christianity wielding is gained through fear. fear of the unknown and fear of punishment, and is that really absolute?

Originally posted by 5Lostboy5
I was thinking that if we killed everyone but me and a couple of Woman ... we could start all over ... But ... Then what would that make me ? =-) ... THE KING !!!! lol ..

Typically I'm not an advocate of medication to aid mental stability, but perhaps I should re-think my position.

[edit on 6-12-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you're talking in cyclical contradiction. first you say we have free will, then you say everything was predestined due to the big bang.

you can't have it both ways!

No, actually I was telling you you couldn't have it both ways. If the Copenhagen model is incorrect and there is no randomness in the universe, then your destiny, from the thought you're having right now to the way your great (x43) grand kids will die has been known based on the velocity and mass of all the particles in the Big Bang. If the Copenhagen model is incorrect, the only way to get around a strict predestined model would be the introduction of something ouside of what science currently holds as reality, namely a spiritual side.

What impact can a soul have on physical reality? We have no idea, and no means by which to test it currently.

The other option would be that Copenhagen's model is correct, in which case you wouldn't need God to have free will...possibly.

To the sidenote, the subject is very tongue in cheek. Read the initial post to understand

but a human can alter the direction in which billions of particles move, if i wanted to i could just stop typing, the Copenhagen model would only work if we were talking in a premise without life.

but this digression is distracting from what we should truely focus on

also, let's get to my other point, which i'll repeat

if christianity had an absolute power, why would there be so many forms of it, and so many contradictions within it. the only power i see christianity wielding is gained through fear. fear of the unknown and fear of punishment, and is that really absolute?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
but a human can alter the direction in which billions of particles move, if i wanted to i could just stop typing, the Copenhagen model would only work if we were talking in a premise without life.

That's assuming life suddenly gains control over particle physics...As of today, no model exists that shows that willpower trumps action/reaction. Life would be nothing but preset collisions of both particles and energies. All behavior in your brain is governed by electrodynamics and chemical reactions, AKA complex particle physics. Just because you think you're making a decision doesn't mean you could make any other

but this digression is distracting from what we should truely focus on

in your opinion

if christianity had an absolute power, why would there be so many forms of it, and so many contradictions within it. the only power i see christianity wielding is gained through fear. fear of the unknown and fear of punishment, and is that really absolute?

Your premise is based on a subject taken out of context, first off. Second, if there is an Absloute Power in Christianity, we, as Christians, call that power "God". The contradictions located within the faith you speak of are easy to put forward abstractly, but when one is forced to give an example that a Christian couldn't explain through scripture, those contradictions are suddenly so severly limited they become non-existant. So, the question is why are there so many forms of Christianity if there is a God. Aite, I'll bite.

For the most part, it is because people disagree on an abstract point in the faith. For example, predestination is something that Christians hotly contest amongst one another. Why? Because there's are solid scriptural arguments supporting both sides. The core, that Christ came and died as a sacrifice for us all in order to bridge the gap between ourselves and God, doesn't change between true Christian denominations. There are others, such as Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses who piggyback on the word "Christian" because there is such a large following of Christ and come up with a doctrine of their own. Those are the outliers, the standard model lies in the various Christ honoring sects of Christianity.

When put to the question, most Christian denominations are in agreement on about 99% of the Bible. Questions come up in doctrine, and therein lies the schism. That's a large reason why I created the thread, The Bride Of Christ Must Be United. We agree on so much, yet get into really heated debates over that 1%.

Heavenly deal-breaker? Not according to scripture.

but in the end shall we not be judged by ourselves?

"Every person is held responsible for his [or her] deeds. On the Day of Resurrection We shall bring out for him a scroll which he will see spread open. (He will be ordered): Read your own record; It is sufficient that you judge yourself today." (al-Isra' 17/13-14)

[edit on 6-12-2005 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
but in the end shall we not be judged by ourselves?

The question isn't who's going to be judged (it should be clear that everyone will appear before the judgement seat), the question is am I going to be damned or have eternity in heaven? I know that answer. If you'd truly like to know for certain that answer for your own eternity, send U2U for details.



[edit on 6-12-2005 by saint4God]

From The Prophet

The happiest man in the world of those doomed to the Fire (Hell) on the Day of Judgment will be dipped in the Fire once. Then he will be asked, “Son of Adam, did you ever see any good? Did you ever experience any blessing?” So he will say, “No, by God, O Lord!”

if The Prophet of Allah said that the punishment for your sins is equal to your sins, then how can one have an infinite punishment?