The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
the upsetting parts were the hypocricy and straight up stupidity of the most fundamental supporters of christianity, the fact that the bible really needs to be abridged (way too much filler), the problems i have with much of the text in the bible, and having some sort of omnipotent, omniscient being at the center of a religion to use as a crutch against fear and uncertainty.

Alright, let me see if I can break this down a bit... your first and primary issue was with the people who claim Christianity as their faith and their respective behaviors.

The second is that you apparently have some problems with portions of biblical text... as you stated that you'd like the Bible Abridged because you feel there is too much filler, am I incorrect in assuming you feel that SOME parts were valuable to you while you were in the faith?

The last part I wish to address in a more direct manner... Do you feel that an Omniscient/Omnipotent being can be nothing but a crutch for people, or is it how God is perceived to be portrayed which causes the reaction?

In a sense, I will agree that most people's understanding of the Christian God is one who uses fear of repurcussion and punishment to bring his children into the fold. I assume your comment about uncertainty intends to convey that you feel some people believe because they are afraid to be unbelievers and wrong?

Thank you for your patient responses.

following this discussion with much interest since several of the posters seem to be trying to express what I've oftened tried...thank you all for sharing!

So, lately, I've been trying to explain how I feel about G-d vs. organized religions by thinking in the terms that organized religions, in the USA it's mostly Christianity, are trying to build some artificial container of some sort with some manmade boundaries and declare that "inside here is G-d, outside is not G-d" and, as I've said many times, the G-d in which I believe is far too big to fit into those containers. The Bible is one of those containers because so many people will declare that if something is in the Bible, that's G-d but if it's not or even if the Bible actually prohibits that thing, then it's a "sin". See, I don't really believe that G-d has ordained this concept of "sin" but, that's probably because I do not accept that the Bible is the Word of G-d. I don't think the Word of G-d exists on this earth.

Sometimes I find myself choosing sides - that's a character flaw for me - because I feel that G-d is being attacked. Of course, it's quite silly of me to think that G-d needs my help in defense. I just have a hard time resisting the temptation (oops! is that like a sin?) of reacting to those who try to "claim" G-d in the name of one religion or another. Of course, around ATS and the USA, that religious order goes by the name of Christianity. It feels like a personal attack, though I realize it isn't intended as one, when someone tells me that I can't know or experience G-d without believing in the divinity of their Jesus. Sorry but, that's just another attempt at containing G-d and those arguments are just wasted on me.

I do have a deep, deep interest in religions but that interest is not really tied to my spirituality - it's just my natural inclination to try to understand how people interact with each other and/or react to society all through the history of humankind on this planet. Fascinating stuff!

Again, no matter how I try, it is really hard to express it with my poor writing skills. But, there it is - another "practice round".

Edited to add this: Reading back over this, I felt compelled to say that I think there are many who hold deep adn sincere beliefs in the teachings of certain religions and many, maybe most, are good people with whom I'm proud to share this planet. In this particular space, a guy like Saint4God (not to single him out as the only one) comes to mind as someone whom I believe is as good a person as you can find! We may not share the same path but that does not mean that I think he is wrong to believe as he believes. When he offers to share his faith, I think it is a genuine act of kindness. Not to be mauldin about it, I just didn't want anyone to think I was attacking them in the manner in which I dislike being attacked. Fair is fair.

[edit on 7-12-2005 by Al Davison]

Originally posted by AkashicWanderer

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
why do people think that god is on the side of christianity?

It would seem it is because they are conditioned to think so.

Oh yes, I have been mentally massaged, beaten and brain-washed to believe in God. .

[edit on 8-12-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Might I make a suggestion? Well, I will regardless of the answer... so bear with me please.

Certainly

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Rather than approach your care from a Christian perspective, perhaps you should find a manner to approach your care for his spiritual wellbeing that coincides to his own path of enlightenment and communion with our Creator Being.

I am. Or, at least I'm trying to. I don't want clones of me running around. That's not what I want, and certainly isn't what God wants.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
As you and I discussed before, Saint, the Book is not the way for everyone... just as christianity is also not the way for everyone.

I did? Somebody slap me.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
We can all meet at the summit, provided we can get there together. However you reach enlightenment isn't important...

I agree it has little play in the matter. I know my testimony alone is not enough to convince anyone of anything. Especially here.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
I think it is a noble thing to try and help others to step onto the path to the summit, yet always remember that you cannot guide them if they do not wish for guidance.

I've learned quite a bit from the people here, I'm certainly not discounting that. Though, given the choice, I'd much rather others receive the free gift of eternal life than me just here learning stuff. Learning is all well and good, but it does secure anything in eternity.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
Hmm. Since you cannot "PROVE" anything... perhaps none of us should talk.

My proposition is not to prove my experiences, my proposition is to help those who want proof to get it on their own. I'm offering a tour, a walk-through with a definitive beginning and an end of how to arrive at this. It takes a few U2U's because it's a discussion, not a monologue or an instruction book. Prognosis, Diagnosis, offer for the cure. That's it. No forcing, no money, no insisting, thumping, nor fire and brimstoning. Rather, a perspective of what I came to know to be true, why, and how you may know it to be true too. I think all of this is much more valuable than "convincing" someone that my experiences are valid. Experiencing it yourself is nothing short of incredible.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
The second is that you apparently have some problems with portions of biblical text... as you stated that you'd like the Bible Abridged because you feel there is too much filler, am I incorrect in assuming you feel that SOME parts were valuable to you while you were in the faith?

of course. but it's only a small fraction. the parts that were valuable were the commandments, even though i believe the first should be ommitted and that they could be made into 3:
1) don't hurt another human in any way (sums up theft, coveting, murder, adultery, false witness)
2) take time to relax (sabbath)
3) respect those who provide for you (honoring parents)

The last part I wish to address in a more direct manner... Do you feel that an Omniscient/Omnipotent being can be nothing but a crutch for people, or is it how God is perceived to be portrayed which causes the reaction?

In a sense, I will agree that most people's understanding of the Christian God is one who uses fear of repurcussion and punishment to bring his children into the fold. I assume your comment about uncertainty intends to convey that you feel some people believe because they are afraid to be unbelievers and wrong?

to an extent it's both. omnipotence and omniscience means freedom from doubt. as long as anything is portrayed in this way. it will be used by someone to ward off insecurities about their future and their death. there are quite a few people who don't use god as a crutch, however, the majority seems to.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
of course. but it's only a small fraction. the parts that were valuable were the commandments, even though i believe the first should be ommitted and that they could be made into 3:
1) don't hurt another human in any way (sums up theft, coveting, murder, adultery, false witness)
2) take time to relax (sabbath)
3) respect those who provide for you (honoring parents)

Not bad, but Jesus did it in 2. (Matthew 22:34) And the first is the most important commandment.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
to an extent it's both. omnipotence and omniscience means freedom from doubt.

God doesn't have doubt.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
as long as anything is portrayed in this way. it will be used by someone to ward off insecurities about their future and their death. there are quite a few people who don't use god as a crutch, however, the majority seems to.

God kicks away the crutches (sins) so that we can be free, not gives us the sin that we crutch upon.

[edit on 9-12-2005 by saint4God]

saint, how can absolute reliance on another not be a crutch?

christianity (like MOST other religions) thrives on uncertainty. like you said god doesn't have doubt, providing anyone who has "faith" in this being therefore assumes that all things have a place in the "grand scheme"

people shouldn't have to fear divine retribution for their mideeds, there should be enough earthly punishment.

Madnessinmysoul, I have a question for you....

I caught a thread of your a wile back and I'm not sure if you understood, what you were talking about, with Slaves Maidservants and Menservants and You seam not to understand what You were reading. (I'll be short on this right now) The thing is to know is the difference between God's Law and Man's Law.
I hope this might help a little, I'll try to catch you here tomorrow if you have a question on what I'm saying OK....

i understand the bible, and that is how i know its faults. it doesn't matter to me if there is "god's law" because i don't believe in god. the bible is just a piece of literature that's been blown out of proportion.

If someone is born with one leg and uses a crutch, do you condemn them for it? If we've been created in such a way as to require reliance on God, should we be condemned for that crutch?

Which, in your opinion, would be the greater fool, the person born with one leg who uses a crutch to aid them in getting around, or the person born with one leg who refuses the crutch, makes fun of the person using the crutch thinking them weak for doing so, and deludes themselves into thinking they can get around just as well as the person with a crutch?

jj, the problem is that i don't see how i require this "crutch". there doesn't seem to be a reason i need it, it doesn't even seem to fit. WHY do i need it? what purpose does it serve? why do i feel perfectly healthy (spiritually at least, because i have a flu right now) and perfectly able without this crutch?

Originally posted by jfdarby
I caught a thread of your a wile back and I'm not sure if you understood, what you were talking about, with Slaves Maidservants and Menservants and You seam not to understand what You were reading.

Since madnessinmysoul did not respond, I'm wondering if perhaps you may have mixed her/him up with me? The sanctification of slavery via the 10th commandment is a point I enjoy harping on frequently.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i understand the bible, and that is how i know its faults. it doesn't matter to me if there is "god's law" because i don't believe in god. the bible is just a piece of literature that's been blown out of proportion.

(MadnessinmySoul)


Hay madnessinmySoul I'm sorry to bother You, I though You were asking a Question., (One that I though I knew) and I though I could show you the Difference between God's Law and Man's law.....

I won't interfere again, I'll stay out and try to get My thoughts in line again

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
saint, how can absolute reliance on another not be a crutch?

My crutch before was depending on myself and my good deeds to earn my way into heaven. I've been freed from that and no longer need crutches. I can now be me, give, and help whereas before I had too many problems of my own desiring self-ambition, wants, money, etc.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
christianity (like MOST other religions) thrives on uncertainty. like you said god doesn't have doubt, providing anyone who has "faith" in this being therefore assumes that all things have a place in the "grand scheme"

people shouldn't have to fear divine retribution for their mideeds, there should be enough earthly punishment.

Those who believe have no reason to fear divine retribution (the penalty for sins has been paid in full), but delight in doing what's right, wanting to do good. That is the right heart to have.

Originally posted by spamandham
The sanctification of slavery via the 10th commandment is a point I enjoy harping on frequently.

I'm afraid you've completely missed what the 10th commandment is saying, in the hunt to self-justify why God is not good.

Let's take a look at the tenth commandment, shall we? What, exactly, does it say?

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Ahh, so we shouldn't covet that which is not our own. So does that mean we shouldn't want anything that our neighbor has? No, it doesn't. A synonym of covet would be envy, a term more familiar to folks these days. Webster defines envy as "painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by another joined with a desire to possess the same advantage".

So how does that sanctify slavery? Spamandham, true to form, has chosen to make a statement without any explanation to it, so we will have to make assumptions here. I know what they say about assumptions, but spam doesn't leave us much choice since he chose to ignore ATS's rules for some reason.

If one were to really twist the meaning, you could perceive it as telling someone in bondage, a slave, that they cannot envy their master's position. This would be true. They could want to be free, but they shouldn't be resentful of their master because of his freedom. Therefore, slavery is sanctified by the Bible. That is, of course, a very skewed and slanted interpretation. The other possibility would be that it says in some translations "slave" instead of man/maid servant.

Did slavery exist when the Old Testament was written? Yep, sure did. Does the Bible talk about slavery? Yep, sure does. Does the Bible condemn slavery? No. Does the Bible encourage slavery and call it holy? No. The Bible recognized its existence, and even set rules governing it for the Jews when God established the code of laws for Israel.

So does the Bible encourage slavery by speaking of it? I would say no, especially after Christ came to us. Why? The second most important commandment, according to Christ, is to love your neighbor. How, if you're following God's will, could you love your neighbor yet put him or her into unwanted bondage to yourself? It's not possible. Slavery isn't specifically condemned in the Bible, but through the second most important commandment, it is implied.

there is no absolute power
power=control
control can be achieved through a set of guidlines which one has to follow in order to achieve something
therefore christianity does weild power, but not in a good way

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
there is no absolute power
power=control
control can be achieved through a set of guidlines which one has to follow in order to achieve something
therefore christianity does weild power, but not in a good way

Uh...Didn't we already talk about the subject vs. the actual content of the first post on page 80? I believe your post ID when you brought this up was 1867355 and my reply to it, two posts lower on the same page, was ID# 1867376

So...Uh...Why bring that up again?

oops, sorry, umm, maybe its because i completely forgot what i posted.

ok, how about this horrible and random argument.

why is it chrisitianity?