The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spamandham
Prayer is you talking to yourself under the delusion that someone is listening. Been there, done that.

Talked to yourself or talked to God? Yes, there is a difference.

Prove it.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spamandham
Jake asked if I would want god to show himself and make his demands clear, and I answered yes. Is that complicated?

No. Just thinking that you could re-direct that question to One who can provide the answer.

I wasn't asking a question, I was answering one. You have given me no reason to believe that you and the Jakes have any answers on this topic that are superior to my own.

Originally posted by saint4God
Then either there's something you forgot along the way, are refusing to look at, or missed on the first go around.

...or you're deluding yourself. I vote the latter.

Originally posted by saint4God
Then either there's something you forgot along the way, are refusing to look at, or missed on the first go around.

..sounds awfully familiar.

Which it is I don't know, but if you want to fix this broken relationship I'm letting you know you have that ability. Something let you down and you've clued me into it a little, but we'd need to talk about that specifically, in detail, in order to resolve.

Saint, I think you would get alot further with people if you weren't so condescending. You baby talk 'unbelievers'/unsaved' as though we are naive little children.. honestly it really does give the impression that you have a slight superiority complex. You and your beliefs do not have a monopoly on truth.. to claim you do [and that we don't and need 'help'] elevates you not only above everyone else but to the same status of the god you are promoting.

BTW. I'm not trying to be nasty [If I were I'd admit it] but that is the way you communicate and it is no doubt putting other people off as well.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by riley]

I wanted to show everyone this website. I hope that everyone who has written in this forum takes a look at it, because it is incredibly interesting. If you do read it give an opinion on it. I just want to see what others think about it. Read This

Originally posted by spamandham
Prove it.

Okay, when you ask yourself a question to which you do not know the answer, it is not possible to answer yourself. Also, if you ask for something to happen that is beyond any means of your own capabilities and it does happen despite an exceedingly small probability, it makes you go "hmmm". Now when you go "hmmm" over and over again, you start busting out your calculator to do the math and realize it only goes to .000000000009 -E. I'm fairly certainly this will not be considered acceptable 'proof'. It's something you'd have to experience on your own.

Originally posted by spamandham
I wasn't asking a question, I was answering one.

Looked like questions here:

Originally posted by spamandham
If god requires that I bow down and serve vs. fry forever, then yes, I want him to show himself and make that petty infantile demand clear (why the heck does an infinite being want to be served anyway?). Who wouldn't?

Originally posted by spamandham
You have given me no reason to believe that you and the Jakes have any answers on this topic that are superior to my own.

Please don't shoot the messengers.

Originally posted by spamandham
...or you're deluding yourself. I vote the latter.

It wasn't me who brought up the painful past in relation to the reason why you're now an ex-Christian. It's up to you whether or not you want to talk about it. I don't see where I'm going out on a limb anywhere, just reflecting back what you'd told me. Again, if I'm off-base, certainly willing to be corrected.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by riley
..sounds awfully familiar.

If the shoe fits, feel free to have a pair.

Originally posted by riley
Saint, I think you would get alot further with people if you weren't so condescending. You baby talk 'unbelievers'/unsaved' as though we are naive little children.. honestly it really does give the impression that you have a slight superiority complex.

I'm not superior to anyone, nor would I want to be. All I'm doing is pointing, delivering a message, and working with people who say they have a problem with something that isn't broken. The topics we're discussing are fundamental, so to convolute it with a bunch of subjective rationale would be a disservice to anyone looking for the direct answer. Don't want the help? No one is forcing you to take it. Just don't ask me not to give it because that's what I've been directed to do.

Originally posted by riley
You and your beliefs do not have a monopoly on truth.. to claim you do [and that we don't and need 'help'] elevates you not only above everyone else but to the same status of the god you are promoting.

To do so would result in my eternal damnation. What fool who believes in His Word would risk that?

Originally posted by riley
BTW. I'm not trying to be nasty [If I were I'd admit it] but that is the way you communicate and it is no doubt putting other people off as well.

Then I apologize if anyone has felt this way about me, it is certainly not intended. I am a candid person and it has gotten me in trouble before (whether justified or not).

Originally posted by riley
You and your beliefs do not have a monopoly on truth.. to claim you do [and that we don't and need 'help'] elevates you not only above everyone else but to the same status of the god you are promoting.

Not exactly. To claim he does (as I do, too) is simply to claim that we believe in Christianity. The Bible states that Christ is the only way to heaven, and we follow the Bible. I will admit, that is a concept that is really hard for me to wrap my mind around. I've been raised in today's culture which promotes equality above all with no moral absloutes. When I became a Christian, for many years I was more a Unitarian because of that. Yet, I believe the rest of the book because it has not been proven false in any area. In my opinion, not claiming Christ is the only way would be elevating me above everyone else and on the same grounds as God. After all, I'm the blessed individual given the discernment to read through the entire Word of God and recognize that which He didn't really mean.

To our bold typing friend: I read through that list of "contradictions". It was interesting and asked some questions I myself have asked in the past. I encourage you to start a thread and bring up some of the ones you're most interested in so we could discuss them

Originally posted by sweetgal2004
I hope that everyone who has written in this forum takes a look at it, because it is incredibly interesting. If you do read it give an opinion on it. I just want to see what others think about it.

As JJ suggested, pick one and we'll talk about it. I think all of them have been discussed before, but will go through again. Candidly I'm more interested in your questions than someone elses.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Not hard at all, but one of the lessons from the Book is Him saying, "Okay, I've taken my step, now you take yours and I'll met you half way" (paraphrasing of course).

I can't feel him, see him, hear him, taste him( ), or smell him. I can pretend he is there though. No offence, but there is no way of knowing he is there.

Originally posted by saint4God
Not hard at all. In fact, it's promised in the end if we don't apologize now.

Then, why do some Christians feel the need to take it into there own hands? The killing of "witches" is a prime example.

Originally posted by saint4God
This whole "my beliefs are a secret, personal thing" is garbage. If you talk about your beliefs, all of the sudden you're "imposing them"? Calm talk isn't imposing. Anger and hate is imposing. And no, Christianity is not about anger and hate, rather it's about love, faith and hope.

Actually is was Jake who said it was wrong for Atheists to preach their own beliefs. No calm talk isnt imposing them. Things like the Blue Law are imposing them. I never said Christianity was anger and hate. Many Christians do no represent Christ, and preach their own twisted version of Christianity.

Originally posted by saint4God
He does spread the word on His own. There are many ways He communicates, not just one.

Give me a few examples of how HE communicates.

Originally posted by saint4God
He is telling you. Are you expecting a voice from a cloud? We're not in control of Him, we've gotta do things His way. That's lesson #1.

Why not? He is all- powerful after all. Isn't that how he used to do it in the Bible?

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Charlie Murphy]

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Then, why do some Christians feel the need to take in into there own hands? The killing of "witches" is a prime example.

First, when was the last witch killed for being a witch in the US? The only reason I can give you as to why some Christians feel this was is that they're imperfect, just like you and me. Not to sound condescending, but when you adopt a religion because you believe it to be true, you're not automatically infused with the knowlege of all aspects of the Bible and the faith. Christians are very much like other people. When you become a new Christian, many want to be on the front lines, fighting for God and doing what they know is right to help people know this God they now know. As a Christian matures, they learn more of the fascets of the faith and realize it's not all that clear cut, and what you knew was right wasn't. Just like the hippies, who were such idealists in their twenties before they got to really know the real world, knowledge jades one's idealism. It's really ironic that the movers and shakers are usually the ones who don't know enough to give up on a hopeless cause.

Actually is was Jake who said it was wrong for Atheists to preach their own beliefs. No calm talk isnt imposing them. Things like the Blue Law are imposing them. I never said Christianity was anger and hate. Many Christians do no represent Christ, and preach their own twisted version of Christianity.

Me?

Why not? He is all- powerful after all. Isn't that how he used to do it in the Bible?
[edit on 3-8-2005 by Charlie Murphy]

Not always. There were times of silence and times of booming, resounding proof of existance. If the Last Days preachers are right, this brief period of silence is going to be shattered in the most noticable manner since the beginning, even making the Flood seem like a drop of water in the bucket.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
I can't feel him, see him, hear him, taste him(

), or smell him. I can pretend he is there though. No offence, but there is no way of knowing he is there.

I can feel and on rare occasions 'hear' but not the other senses. As far as knowing, yes. That's possible, but probably something that you'd have to to experience. I'll help however I can.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Then, why do some Christians feel the need to take it into there own hands? The killing of "witches" is a prime example.

JJ had a very good answer . I just wanted to add that there's a difference between "Christians" and Christians. I can call myself anything, though it doesn't make me one. The true litmus test is whether it complies with what God said before (in His Word) and if it complies with Him right now. In other words, you can ask. He won't contradict His Word.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Things like the Blue Law are imposing them.

It sounds to me it was honoring a request for Christians not to work that day yet keeping the competitive field of business level. There wasn't massive opposition to it since everyone benefited (minus large business owners which were very few). The tide has shifted. We've got big business, they lobbied and won. Now, being a Christian, I have to compromise. My employer says he wants me to work Sundays to stay competitive, and I said I need it as a holyday. Back then I felt my need to support my family was greater than the need to designate "Sunday" as my sabbath. Anymore, Sunday is my sabbath because I'm involved in a lot of things that day for Him. What do I do now if my employer requires me to work Sunday? Shouting Monty Python's "Help! I'm being oppessed!" may be funny at the office, but it doesn't get my employer to respect my choice in the day I wish to have off.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
I never said Christianity was anger and hate.

Oh good ^_^ 'cause anger and hate is the opposite of Christianity.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Many Christians do no represent Christ, and preach their own twisted version of Christianity.

This is true, as Jesus himself stated.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Why not? He is all- powerful after all.

Ask for your sign, just leave it up to Him on how to effectively deliver it to you.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Isn't that how he used to do it in the Bible?

Nobody in the Bible got to choose how God spoke to them, but I think JJ brought up something very interesting. It immediately reminded me of the following:

I Kings 19:11
"The Lord said, 'Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the Lord, for the Lord is about to pass by.'
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. After the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper. When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.
Then a voice said to him, 'What are you doing here Elijah?"

What I'm getting at is I don't know if you're going to get your sign by earthquake or whisper, that's not for me to decide. My advice though is when you do ask for your sign to listen carefully for both and everything in between.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spamandham
Prove it.

Okay, when you ask yourself a question to which you do not know the answer, it is not possible to answer yourself. Also, if you ask for something to happen that is beyond any means of your own capabilities and it does happen despite an exceedingly small probability, it makes you go "hmmm". Now when you go "hmmm" over and over again,

Your experience, not mine, and I don't trust your experience to be real. You have proven nothing, and reiterating your story yet again won't cut the mustard. For someone who claims to have been a skeptic, you seem to have little insight into how the skeptical mind works.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spamandham
I wasn't asking a question, I was answering one.

Looked like questions here:

Originally posted by spamandham
If god requires that I bow down and serve vs. fry forever, then yes, I want him to show himself and make that petty infantile demand clear (why the heck does an infinite being want to be served anyway?). Who wouldn't?

Boy you sure got me on that one.

Originally posted by spamandham
You have given me no reason to believe that you and the Jakes have any answers on this topic that are superior to my own.

Originally posted by saint4God
Please don't shoot the messengers.

Gee, and I thought we were discussing something rather than just passing messages around between invisble friends. Seeing yourself as a messenger rather than a participant would explain why you remember nothing about our previous discussions. Apparently I'm talking to myself. Does that count as prayer?

Originally posted by spamandham
It wasn't me who brought up the painful past in relation to the reason why you're now an ex-Christian.

What painful past would that be?

Originally posted by junglejake
First, when was the last witch killed for being a witch in the US?

I think in the late 1800's. Here is a page onThe Burning Times.

Originally posted by junglejake
The only reason I can give you as to why some Christians feel this was is that they're imperfect, just like you and me.

Or because they are afraid of people unlike them. You started this thread because you thought Christianity wasn't being forced on people. How is this not forcing it on people? If you denounce the Christian God you are KILLED! I know it doesn't happen anymore, but other forms still occur.

Originally posted by junglejake
It's really ironic that the movers and shakers are usually the ones who don't know enough to give up on a hopeless cause.

I'm not sure what you mean by movers and shakers.

Originally posted by junglejake
Me?

Yes, remember this?

Originally posted by junglejake
What's even more interesting about this group is their need to show others that He doesn't exist. It's evangelical athiesm. No matter what God does, people will rebel, be it by ignoring Him or openly rejecting Him despite believing in Him.

Originally posted by junglejake
Not always. There were times of silence and times of booming, resounding proof of existance. .

Too bad it stopped, right? You have to realize how silly "his" logic is. Instead of removing doubt of his existance, and giving people who go through life unsure, The Truth, he would rather let them burn in hell. Sounds like a kid with a magnifying glass, burning ants for the fun of it.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Charlie Murphy]

Originally posted by saint4God
I can feel and on rare occasions 'hear' but not the other senses. As far as knowing, yes. That's possible, but probably something that you'd have to to experience.

Sometimes this confidence and faith are interpretted as arrogance. For me to take you seriously, you must accept that you might be wrong.

Originally posted by saint4God
He won't contradict His Word.

Are you aware of how many contradictions there are in the Bible?

Originally posted by saint4God
My employer says he wants me to work Sundays to stay competitive, and I said I need it as a holyday. Back then I felt my need to support my family was greater than the need to designate "Sunday" as my sabbath. What do I do now if my employer requires me to work Sunday?

I don't know where you work, but my employer gives many co-workers Sunday off for Church. If you are working full-time, why don't you ask for one of your days off on Sunday?

Originally posted by saint4God
Nobody in the Bible got to choose how God spoke to them, but I think JJ brought up something very interesting.

I have a theory of why "God" only talked to people on the mountains and to only one person, but it is a little off topic for this thread.

Originally posted by saint4God
What I'm getting at is I don't know if you're going to get your sign by earthquake or whisper, that's not for me to decide. My advice though is when you do ask for your sign to listen carefully for both and everything in between.

I don't know how you can be so sure of yourself. Thats is not an insult, I am just amazed at how you think you "know".

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Charlie Murphy]

I feel as if this forum of people discussing God and how it is forced on people could go on forever. Maybe it isn't forced...maybe I won't get killed if I'm a witch. But I will be discriminated for it by other christians. Because in the scriptures it tells man to not partake in any witchcraft, magic, or ritualistic activity. And to stay away from people who do. You know how I know this? Because I am a witch. I practice wicca. And I was FORCED to read the bible growing up. Now that isn't everyone. That is just me. I guess the answers will come to everyone as every person wishes them to come. I wish I could dance around the fire naked in the streets of downtown as I perform my magic of protection, love, and happiness. But I will be arrested by the very people who get to build churches and worship their God...since for some reason my God and Goddess isn't right. The very people who get to say Jesus in my presence. The very people who put up a cross in their front yard. But yet the same people tell my I have a freedom of religion. I'm a prisoner. A wiccan prisoner locked inside of christianity. Or at times it feels that way. haha

And last but not least. It is a little disturbing to me...for me to bow down to a MAN who died on a cross. A MAN...A HUMAN...AN IMPERFECT HUMAN...just like you and me ...just like you and me. IMPERFECT!!!!!!

Check out Reiki...it proves no one is any worse that Jesus Christ. It proves that we can heal just as Jesus did.

I wish christians would look outside of the box. There is so much peace, and things to learn.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Sometimes this confidence and faith are interpretted as arrogance.

I realize that. It can be a problem but don't know of a way to resolve it other than to say I'm not here for me nor my arrogance and give everything I have. Is there something I can do to prove that I'm not?

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
For me to take you seriously, you must accept that you might be wrong.

Why do you want me to deny my proof? How seriously could you take me if I pretended the reality of it all doesn't exist?

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Are you aware of how many contradictions there are in the Bible?

It feels like I practically breathe the subject matter hanging out in the "Conspiracies in Religions" section. I'd be surprised if someone points out a "contradiction" that hasn't been heard before or addressed already. I am learning new things now and then so I'm willing to hear anyone out.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
I don't know where you work, but my employer gives many co-workers Sunday off for Church. If you are working full-time, why don't you ask for one of your days off on Sunday?

You can, but the 'inflexibility' shows up on your performance review...which coincidently affects promotions and bonuses.

I heard a comment at work 2 weeks ago. Someone brought a Bible to read on their break time (I didn't have mine since I was working in another building) and the comment was made, "better keep an eye on her, she could be one of those". I asked what she meant and she said, "you know, a Bible, at work?" Even more remarkable was the person who made the comment was an educator. I thought educators had classes in college about diversity and accepting differences. Ah well.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
I don't know how you can be so sure of yourself. Thats is not an insult, I am just amazed at how you think you "know".

No insult taken, in fact, the more candid the better. It is amazing to me too because it's the only thing I can say I know for sure. It's hard not being able to quickly and easily share exactly what it's like.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Why do you want me to deny my proof?

You wanted me to deny my own proof.. even went as far as telling me I must've gone 'off track', I didn't look hard enough or I recieved the 'wrong' proof.. [paraphrased] whats the difference? What makes your proof of 'the truth' anymore valid than mine or anyone else who has 'seen the light' that isn't Jesus? ..unless of course you believe it's your perception that is superior than ALL the pagens, muslims, hindues, buddhists, atheists etc in the world. Thats a couple of billion people that are misguided.. are ALL these groups wrong in the beliefs and condemned to hell? What about the ones [past and present] that have never even heared of Jesus? Are they going to go to hell for not finding him?

[edit on 4-8-2005 by riley]

Riley, I'm not denying your experience. I'm saying there's more to the story. It seems to me you don't care about that and I can not make you care, nor would I want to make you do anything.

Originally posted by riley
...unless of course you believe it's your perception that is superior than ALL the pagens, muslims, hindues, buddhists, atheists etc in the world.

This whole 'superiority complex' thing has got to go. It is THAT kind of thinking that starts wars, not Christ's teachings.

Originally posted by riley
Thats a couple of billion people that are misguided.. are ALL these groups wrong in the beliefs and condemned to hell?

Where have I said this?

Originally posted by riley
What about the ones [past and present] that have never even heared of Jesus? Are they going to go to hell for not finding him?

Can I quote the Bible on this one or should I give my 'superior' re-phrasing of what it says? I'm not making any of this up. All I'm doing is testifying that the Word is true and it works. You say you've 'been there'. So in order to respect the journey of a road already taken, you tell me what the Book says about it and I'll nod or shake my head according to what it actually does say whether by quote or explanation.


[edit on 4-8-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by riley
Thats a couple of billion people that are misguided.. are ALL these groups wrong in the beliefs and condemned to hell?

Originally posted by saint4god
Where have I said this?

unless you accept jesus christ then you are going to hell according to the bible, hence according to the beliefs you choose to follow 'saint4god', every other religion that doesn't accept jesus christ is going to hell.

''where have i said this''...you don't need to tell people that this is what is going to happen, because the bible teachers you that this is the way it's going to be for the people that don't believe in jesus christ.

Originally posted by saint4God
Riley, I'm not denying your experience. I'm saying there's more to the story.

Of course there is.. however you would not have more of a clue as to what it entailed, what knowledge I gained, how much 'truth' I found and how much I didn't than I would.. unless you thought your own perspective superior..? You've taken offence that I think you have a superiority complex, and I'm sorry for being honest about it.. but you've proved it yet again with your opening statement. Perhaps you could read your own posts more objectively. It's kind of a shame really because I discovered things that were highly illuminating and beneficial.. however I wouldn't share anymore of them here [I tested the waters slightly] as they wouldn't be respected [not having 'found god' I've already been demoted to 'lost sheep'] and would fall on deaf ears.

This whole 'superiority complex' thing has got to go. It is THAT kind of thinking that starts wars, not Christ's teachings.

What starts wars is one crede telling another who they should and shouldn't worship [holy wars] or follow [normal wars].. and Christ's teachings? All those popes just 'missread' the bible? [you really want to go there?]. The 'they weren't really christians' thing doesn't wash.. thats called making a judgement anyway and no two people read the bible the same way. Some say it's his teachings that matter.. others say it's the belief in christ that matters the most. The biggest problem that christians seem to have had with me in this thread is my NOT believing.. I could be a mass murderer but so long as I believe I'm saved from eternal fire. Yep.. sure got their priorities straight.

Originally posted by riley
Thats a couple of billion people that are misguided.. are ALL these groups wrong in the beliefs and condemned to hell?

Where have I said this?

Over several posts I got that impression.. so you don't believe this?

Originally posted by riley
What about the ones [past and present] that have never even heared of Jesus? Are they going to go to hell for not finding him?

Can I quote the Bible on this one or should I give my re-phrasing of what it says?

Your own words would be preferable. I am asking what you believe.. that would mean how you've interprited the bible I guess but direct quotes are open to interpritation so may not reflect what you really think.

[edit on 4-8-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
unless you accept jesus christ then you are going to hell according to the bible, hence according to the beliefs you choose to follow 'saint4god', every other religion that doesn't accept jesus christ is going to hell.

''where have i said this''...you don't need to tell people that this is what is going to happen, because the bible teachers you that this is the way it's going to be for the people that don't believe in jesus christ.

I'd recommend evaluating a Christian on the whole Bible before making an assessment. In this case, I'm referring to Revelation 20:11. There are other places in the Bible that talk about the same judgement occuring here. John 3:16 tells us we can be saved from such a day, a guarentee of salvation. I don't expect the judgement will be easy, let alone for those who reject Christ in this lifetime. I do not want to see anyone fall for taking the risk of 'wait and see'. It's possible to get those answers now, and there's great benefit to that.

Hopefully this answers your question as well riley.

[edit on 4-8-2005 by saint4God]