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The Absolute Power of Christianity!

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posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
You want an entity to show itself, give you proof and therefore demand you bow down and serve? Such does exist, but I wouldn't recommend it speaking from experience.


The grass is always greener on the other side. Waaaay back in the day, the Jews were treking through a little desert after having just escaped from slavery, had an ocean split for them, then collapse again on their enemies, and have been eating mana, food from heaven that just appeared every morning for the Jews to feast on. As they're going through the desert, they're following this huge column of fire and smoke: a manifestation of God.

So we have a group of people being fed through unknown means (God is suspected since He told them it was Him), gaining water from rocks by Moses striking them with his staff in the name of the Lord, a huge flaming beacon guiding their way, etc. Did they deny God's existance? Absloutly not, how could they? Instead they rebelled. It wasn't but a few hours when Moses was busy chatting with God and getting the Ten Commandments that they got nervous and created a golden calf to worship.

Now, today, God doesn't make Himself that apparent. There's still rebellion, but far less. However, now there's a group of people who don't believe He even exists. What's even more interesting about this group is their need to show others that He doesn't exist. It's evangelical athiesm. No matter what God does, people will rebel, be it by ignoring Him or openly rejecting Him despite believing in Him.




posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 01:41 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
Now, today, God doesn't make Himself that apparent. There's still rebellion, but far less. However, now there's a group of people who don't believe He even exists. What's even more interesting about this group is their need to show others that He doesn't exist. It's evangelical athiesm. No matter what God does, people will rebel, be it by ignoring Him or openly rejecting Him despite believing in Him.


I think you mean despite what he doesn't do. Now if God can create an entire Universe, How hard would it be to prove his/her/it's existance? How hard would it be to punish us for doing wrong? When you preach that he exists, everything is find and dandy, but if somebody does the opposite, there soooo bad.

I'm not trying to be arrogant, but why don't you leave it up to God to spread his own word? If he wants me to believe, he'll tell me.



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Why? The fact that He wants you to trust in Him, take our own steps to find proof, and wants us to grow and develop through such a relationship is small?


There's no way to trust him without first trusting the messengers, as I have no direct hotline. What you call faith in god, is predicated on faith in those who have passed the message on to you. In your case, you believe you have spoken directly with god. I haven't, and I don't believe you did either, I only believe that you think you did, and even that is hedged against the possibility that you're outright lying about it.


Originally posted by saint4God
You want an entity to show itself, give you proof and therefore demand you bow down and serve?


If god requires that I bow down and serve vs. fry forever, then yes, I want him to show himself and make that petty infantile demand clear (why the heck does an infinite being want to be served anyway?). Who wouldn't? If a tyrant is ruling eternity, it'd be better to be on his good side.



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 03:06 PM
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After reading all of these posts on Christianity...my thoughts have turned to believe that Christianity can only overpower you if you let it. No one, has to listen to what the Bible says. In America, that is one choice we have, Freedom of Religion. (Even if at times it is difficult to be surrounded in so much critisism for being "different," if you are part of a different religion.) Now I must say I was forced as a child to go to church. But as I grew into an adult...I made my own choices, one of which was to never look at another Christian Bible again unless, it meant for survival. I am Wiccan currently. To Christians I worship the devil. To Christians I am a horrible witch. But if we look back in history we would realize that pagan religions such as Wicca came before Christianty ever existed. Christians killed Wiccans. I look at Christianty as more of a race. It reminds me of how Hitler planned to make one race. If you weren't blonde hair blue eyed, you were killed. I guess what I'm trying to get at, is the government supposedly goes by the declaration of independence. Something written how many years ago? We use the same laws even when people change. Humans are evolving. We are figuring out things. We are opening our minds. We are changing. But then I think about this; Christianty wrote our laws. Our laws were written by the Holy Scriptures. So, many people, believe, it is the only way....because it is our laws. "One Nation Under God." So as an American we are forced into our laws. We must obey the laws. And if you don't, you aren't appreciated. You are treated almost like an alien. You almost feel like you have been killed. We have freedom of religion. But if I were to place a billboard up about Wicca don't you think it would be burned to pieces? I must say it is difficult. We are just forced into our laws. It would be nice if I could freely talk to a Christian without them telling me my beliefs are wrong. Because in reality, I am not abiding the law. And in their eyes I am not abiding God. Christians seem to want to do whatever the law tells them. I like to use equation God=Law. Christians are in fear. Their Bible says, "Fear God." Now that little piece of information is stored into the minds of Christians daily. Wouldn't it be nice if Christians could love their God without being fearful of him? I know I love my Gods, they show their love to me. I have never once been told to fear them. I can't love anything I am afraid of. Can you?



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by sweetgal2004
After reading all of these posts on Christianity...my thoughts have turned to believe that Christianity can only overpower you if you let it.
Exactly, so why the huge outcry over a monument in the shape of a cross forcing Christianity on people?


I have never once been told to fear them. I can't love anything I am afraid of. Can you?
I love my parents, and did so as a child. I loved them even when I feared they would discover something I had done wrong and would punish me for it. I loved them when they punished me. I loved them always, and, growing up, feared them often.

[edit on 8-2-2005 by junglejake]



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
Exactly, so why the huge outcry over a monument in the shape of a cross forcing Christianity on people?


Christianity was forced on people throughout history up until the recent past. Those that didn't believe either hid that fact or faced legal consequences (generally torture and death). I have no interest in returning to such a barbaric culture.

A cross here, the 10 Commandments there ... these may be used as precedents for even greater insertion of religion into law, just as the fairly recent "under god" in the pledge is being used as a precedent for the 10 Commandments in public buildings.

But even if they are not, they still are attempts to cram religion into government. I seriously doubt you would sit idly by and watch those of other religions attempt the same thing. Your argument is nothing but special pleading.



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 04:57 PM
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As a child you were 'forced' to eat your veggies, goto school, close the door, goto bed on time, say your sorry, read books, etc...

If children were made, with no need for parental training, then they would grow on trees.



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by spamandham
Christianity was forced on people throughout history up until the recent past. Those that didn't believe either hid that fact or faced legal consequences (generally torture and death). I have no interest in returning to such a barbaric culture.


In the US? Since the adoption of the Constitution, I've not heard of a single incident along those lines. Is this nation to be punished for the crimes that took place before it even existed? If that's the case, we can't have a double standard so we're going to have to start punishing a lot of groups of people!



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 10:11 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by spamandham
Christianity was forced on people throughout history up until the recent past. Those that didn't believe either hid that fact or faced legal consequences (generally torture and death). I have no interest in returning to such a barbaric culture.


In the US? Since the adoption of the Constitution, I've not heard of a single incident along those lines. Is this nation to be punished for the crimes that took place before it even existed? If that's the case, we can't have a double standard so we're going to have to start punishing a lot of groups of people!


Who said anything about punishing groups of people? What was the purpose of making such an outlandish remark?

The Constitution is a piece of paper. It protects us only to the extent it is honored. What you're wanting is a direct violation of the Constitution. You are advocating the trivialization of the very instrument you are implying provides protection from a return to such extremism.

Church/state abuses continued within the US with codified discrimination against nonchristians up until passage of the 14th Amendment, and then continued on even after that in covert forms (blue laws, sodomy laws, prohibition, the war on drugs, etc.) that continue to this day.

As we type, Christian fundamentalists are pushing agendas such as government funding through faith based entities, in addition to such measures as the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, a Religious Freedom Amendment, and the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act. All basically seek to give special rights and privileges to religious believers, allowing them to ignore general laws that everyone else has to follow. What's to stop all this from resulting in a general religion tax distributed directly to churches as is done in Germany?

Prior to the 14th Amendment, the following such abuses were still happenig in the states even though it was no longer legal to kill witches and apostates (though uninvestigated lynchings of nonchristians still continued even into the 20th century, read up on Leo Frank):

- Laws establishing a loyalty oath for legislators and government employees, requiring them to believe in the Trinity, and/or the divine inspiration of the Bible.
- Prohibited clergy from holding office.
- Required legislators to be Protestant Christians.
- Permitted the state to support the Christian religion from general tax revenue.
- Granted religious and other human rights only to Christians, or only to theists.
- Specified "The Protestant Religion" (whatever that meant) to be the established religion of the state.
- Required citizens to observe the weekly Sabbath or Lord's day.

It's amazing how weak your omnipotent god is. He seems to need the force of the state to prop him up. No wonder he feels the constant need for worship to reassure himself he's in charge.



posted on Aug, 2 2005 @ 11:43 PM
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The Blue Law! Hello,( read your History) No work or nothing to do on Sundays. A Day that Constantine made the day of the Sun Sabbath. This was forced on people along time ago, In America. They couldnt even play baseball on Sunday. Remember in the Seventies No Gas stations Open, no Grocery stores were open, Had to do that on saturday. Sunday was an Official day of rest. Go ahead an Correct where I am wrong here.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 12:50 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
As a child you were 'forced' to eat your veggies, goto school, close the door, goto bed on time, say your sorry, read books, etc...

If children were made, with no need for parental training, then they would grow on trees.




As a child you are forced to do many things. But good parents won't put you in harms way. Once a child develops into their teenage years they begin to have their own opinions on things. I was a Jehovah's witness. Christianity's people abused and tortured me. And I know hundreds of cases where this has happened. I'm talking about child abuse(molest, satanic rituals, and physical abuse). There is a difference between sending your kid to church once a week, and letting your kid be molested and possessed. Many Christian religions let this crap go on. Almost like a mask for pedofiles. That is not a part of parental up bringing. Not trying to change subjects, but I suppose I didn't go into enough detail on the forcing of religion. I went to church 3 to 5 times per week. If I didn't go I was abused and molested. What kind of a loving God would let that go on? If Christianity is so safe...why are so many hurt?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?...answer me that please. I wish you could look into the eyes of a molested, satanicly abused 16 year old and see what you think about parental upbringing. You might just change your mind about things...not trying to be rude...I suppose I could just be angry about everything I went through as a christian. I shouldn't put the blame on anyone except those who hurt me. But please just think about that.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 03:41 AM
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Church/state abuses continued within the US with codified discrimination against nonchristians up until passage of the 14th Amendment, and then continued on even after that in covert forms (blue laws, sodomy laws, prohibition, the war on drugs, etc.) that continue to this day.


Gee, I had NO IDEA there was a religion that advocated that businesses stay open on Sunday, or endorsed kinky sex, along with booze and drugs. Which religion were the Christians stepping on here?? If you REALLY want to argue this, why not decry ALL laws? After all, "you can't legislate Morality", right?

Nonsense, of course you can legislate Morality. That's what laws do!


Christianity's people abused and tortured me. And I know hundreds of cases where this has happened. I'm talking about child abuse(molest, satanic rituals, and physical abuse).


Excuse me...Satanic worship? And you blame Christians??


As for the rest of it, evil people function under the guise of religion all the time...not because of Christ, but inspite of him! If I were a pedophile, or a womanizer, or needed a power fix from time to time, or wanted access to a tithing box once in a while, why WOULDN'T I position myself in church to do so?

If I can go further with this, I'd HAVE to say, blame the parish as much as you blame the preacher! Who in hell trusts their kid alone with ANYONE in a rectory anyway? (or a school classroom, or the locker room, or the boss's office...etc., etc., etc.,)

]

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Toelint]



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 07:05 AM
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Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
I think you mean despite what he doesn't do. Now if God can create an entire Universe, How hard would it be to prove his/her/it's existance?


Not hard at all, but one of the lessons from the Book is Him saying, "Okay, I've taken my step, now you take yours and I'll met you half way" (paraphrasing of course).


Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
How hard would it be to punish us for doing wrong?


Not hard at all. In fact, it's promised in the end if we don't apologize now.


Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
When you preach that he exists, everything is find and dandy, but if somebody does the opposite, there soooo bad.


I may get thrown against the wall for saying this, but I think it's about time people stepped up and said what they believed to everyone around. This whole "my beliefs are a secret, personal thing" is garbage. If you talk about your beliefs, all of the sudden you're "imposing them"? Calm talk isn't imposing. Anger and hate is imposing. And no, Christianity is not about anger and hate, rather it's about love, faith and hope.


Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
I'm not trying to be arrogant, but why don't you leave it up to God to spread his own word?


He does spread the word on His own. There are many ways He communicates, not just one.


Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
If he wants me to believe, he'll tell me.


He is telling you. Are you expecting a voice from a cloud? We're not in control of Him, we've gotta do things His way. That's lesson #1.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 07:16 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham
There's no way to trust him without first trusting the messengers,


Not so. Don't like the messengers, not a problem. You don't need to go through them for anything.


Originally posted by spamandham
as I have no direct hotline.


In fact, you do. That's the message I wish you could walk away from in talking with me. Throw everything I said out the window and keep this one if you can only accept one thing I've said. This is what prayer is. Any church or person of God should be telling you that you can talk directly to Him. If they say otherwise, they're mistaken. Close the door to your room, turn off any distratctions. Talk to God. That's it. Repeat as often as you like. Feel weird? Probably, it's something new and exposing.


Originally posted by spamandham
If god requires that I bow down and serve vs. fry forever, then yes, I want him to show himself and make that petty infantile demand clear (why the heck does an infinite being want to be served anyway?). Who wouldn't?


What good is doing to tell us that? Ask Him. You're not asking me for a sign, are you? I can give you signs I exist. He can give you signs that He exists.


Originally posted by spamandham
If a tyrant is ruling eternity, it'd be better to be on his good side.


Fortunately He's not a tyrant, but you'll have to take my word on it unless you ask Him yourself.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 07:23 AM
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Exactly, so why the huge outcry over a monument in the shape of a cross forcing Christianity on people?


That is not the problem. The main problem lies not only with a certain sect of Christians trying to control not only it's "religion" but also control the gov't to force their twisted beliefs down people's throat.

I don't like the way this subsect that calls themselves "Christians" interprets the Bible. When I read it so many times I get a different thought on it. Ever check for the light in the eyes of these evangelical right wing Christians? There is none. That ain't GOD talking kids. Try to get one to give an honest smile. They are the devil doing his work. Wanting control of everything he and they can get their hands on. All in the name of Christ and GOD.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 08:05 AM
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Originally posted by sweetgal2004
Now I must say I was forced as a child to go to church.


Me too. I resented God and Christianity for it for a long time even though it was on rare occasion I was made to go.


Originally posted by sweetgal2004
But as I grew into an adult...I made my own choices, one of which was to never look at another Christian Bible again unless, it meant for survival.


I'd like to hear more about what you mean when you say "for survival".


Originally posted by sweetgal2004
I am Wiccan currently. To Christians I worship the devil.


Christians (generally speaking) see two catagories: Worshipping God or not worshipping God. I don't know what good shouting "you worship the devil!" does other than draw lines in the sand. A Christian should know better than to start a war or promote fear because if they read their Book, it speaks of love and compassion.


Originally posted by sweetgal2004
To Christians I am a horrible witch.


Not all Christians apparently. In fact, I think the ones you're hearing from are the noisey ones who are uneducated in other beliefs. Perhaps even ones who are afraid. Again, fear of others and ignorance are not a part of the Book. It gets in the way of the love and compassion.


Originally posted by sweetgal2004
But if we look back in history we would realize that pagan religions such as Wicca came before Christianty ever existed.


Christianity lays claim to God, who was there in the beginning of existence.


Originally posted by sweetgal2004
Christians killed Wiccans.


Those claiming to be Christians killed a lot of people. "Christians" killed real Christians. Those claiming to kill "for the good of the empire/nation/country" killed countless more. I'm sure you could find perversions within Wiccanism. If not, I can talk about a pair of friends who call themselves "Wiccan" and the things they do which Wiccans will deny is according to their beliefs.


Originally posted by sweetgal2004
I look at Christianty as more of a race. It reminds me of how Hitler planned to make one race. If you weren't blonde hair blue eyed, you were killed.


Now if that's not an attempt to demonize an entire belief system, I don't know what is.


Originally posted by sweetgal2004
But if I were to place a billboard up about Wicca don't you think it would be burned to pieces?


It shouldn't. We all need to be open and honest about what we believe. To do otherwise propagates paranoid and hate based on rumor.


Originally posted by sweetgal2004
It would be nice if I could freely talk to a Christian without them telling me my beliefs are wrong.


You got it! I volunteer myself.


Originally posted by sweetgal2004
Christians seem to want to do whatever the law tells them. I like to use equation God=Law.


Er, not really. I have to keep silent about God a lot by law (of company policy). Otherwise I get thrown out of work and other places.


Originally posted by sweetgal2004
Christians are in fear.


They should not be. It is wrong to live in fear, the Book tells them that.


Originally posted by sweetgal2004
Their Bible says, "Fear God." Now that little piece of information is stored into the minds of Christians daily. Wouldn't it be nice if Christians could love their God without being fearful of him?


It's not the same kind of fear as being eaten by a grizzly bear. It's a respect for God, who He is, and wisdom thereof. If one respects God, there is no need to fear anything else other than hurting Him or His children.


Originally posted by sweetgal2004
I know I love my Gods, they show their love to me. I have never once been told to fear them. I can't love anything I am afraid of. Can you?


I know what you're saying, and again, it's not the kind of fear that makes you flee. It's like your parents saying, "do the right thing, we love you". Your fear is disappointing them in any way.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 08:25 AM
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Originally posted by sweetgal2004
But good parents won't put you in harms way.

Christianity's people abused and tortured me.

There is a difference between sending your kid to church once a week, and letting your kid be molested and possessed.

I went to church 3 to 5 times per week. If I didn't go I was abused and molested.

What kind of a loving God would let that go on?

If Christianity is so safe...why are so many hurt?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?...answer me that please.

I wish you could look into the eyes of a molested, satanicly abused 16 year old and see what you think about parental upbringing. You might just change your mind about things...not trying to be rude...I suppose I could just be angry about everything I went through as a christian.

I shouldn't put the blame on anyone except those who hurt me.


I think this should be heard again. It's is the heart of the issue. I'd like to know more and answer those questions you have if you're willing to U2U me. The answers I'd give on the thread would be too general and doubt there's much interest in my relating a bunch of personal experiences here.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 09:00 AM
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Originally posted by Toelint


Church/state abuses continued within the US with codified discrimination against nonchristians up until passage of the 14th Amendment, and then continued on even after that in covert forms (blue laws, sodomy laws, prohibition, the war on drugs, etc.) that continue to this day.


Gee, I had NO IDEA there was a religion that advocated that businesses stay open on Sunday, or endorsed kinky sex, along with booze and drugs. Which religion were the Christians stepping on here??


Why must opposition to religious based laws be advocated by a religion before it's acceptable to point out that they are religious based laws?


Originally posted by Toelint
If you REALLY want to argue this, why not decry ALL laws? After all, "you can't legislate Morality", right?


The purpose of law is to protect the rights of citizens, not push some sun-stroked ancient goat herder's idea of religious morality on society.


Originally posted by Toelint
Nonsense, of course you can legislate Morality. That's what laws do!


To that I say nonsense. Laws enforce the will of the state, which align with the desires of the citizens to the extent necessary to maintain the power of the state. Yes, you can legislate morality if you're the one calling the shots, you can also legislate immorality. What's possible and what's desirable are two different things.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by spamandham
There's no way to trust him without first trusting the messengers,


Not so. Don't like the messengers, not a problem. You don't need to go through them for anything.


...and I don't. Hence, I don't believe.


Originally posted by spamandham
In fact, you do. That's the message I wish you could walk away from in talking with me. Throw everything I said out the window and keep this one if you can only accept one thing I've said. This is what prayer is.


Prayer is you talking to yourself under the delusion that someone is listening. Been there, done that.


Originally posted by spamandham
What good is doing to tell us that?


Jake asked if I would want god to show himself and make his demands clear, and I answered yes. Is that complicated?


Originally posted by spamandham
Fortunately He's not a tyrant, but you'll have to take my word on it unless you ask Him yourself.


Saint, your arguments are more effective if you start to learn a little about the positions of the people you've had numerous discussions with. I've told you several times already I'm an ex-Christian and used to be devout. You keep talking to me like I'm someone who's never heard all this balony before.



posted on Aug, 3 2005 @ 09:30 AM
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Originally posted by spamandham
Prayer is you talking to yourself under the delusion that someone is listening. Been there, done that.


Talked to yourself or talked to God? Yes, there is a difference.


Originally posted by spamandham
Jake asked if I would want god to show himself and make his demands clear, and I answered yes. Is that complicated?


No. Just thinking that you could re-direct that question to One who can provide the answer.


Originally posted by spamandham
Saint, your arguments are more effective if you start to learn a little about the positions of the people you've had numerous discussions with. I've told you several times already I'm an ex-Christian and used to be devout. You keep talking to me like I'm someone who's never heard all this balony before.


Then either there's something you forgot along the way, are refusing to look at, or missed on the first go around. Which it is I don't know, but if you want to fix this broken relationship I'm letting you know you have that ability. Something let you down and you've clued me into it a little, but we'd need to talk about that specifically, in detail, in order to resolve. All this generalized back-lashing is some way to spite for a trust you feel was violated. If I'm wrong then by all means correct me, I will listen.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by saint4God]



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