Satan the deceiver or not ..

a reply to: EasternShadow

Good. Finally you understand.

Understand what? I'm not stating anything that Paul hasn't already stated.

Romans 2:5-12

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: EasternShadow

Good. Finally you understand.

Understand what? I'm not stating anything that Paul hasn't already stated.

You are quoting Revelation's "the book of life and other books". Something Paul didn't teach to the Gentiles. Paul assured pedophilia and abusive monks, rapist, serial killers, sadists and sinners salvation through faith alone. No need to "work" for redemption ( the other books), without realizing his teaching is the potential cause for Christian laziness and ignorant to God's justice.

a reply to: EasternShadow

I just quoted Paul in the book of Romans. Your problem is that you don't understand what Paul says. Read Romans 2:6 again.

Salvation is by faith. Works alone won't get you into heaven, just like works alone won't keep you out.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: EasternShadow

I just quoted Paul in the book of Romans. Your problem is that you don't understand what Paul says. Read Romans 2:6 again.

Salvation is by faith. Works alone won't get you into heaven, just like works alone won't keep you out.

Yet you are quoting:
Revelation 20:12 ...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

So how does that work with faith alone?

a reply to: EasternShadow

Salvation is through faith for those who have repented and come to know God. Works are judged separately for both heaven and hell. Eventually, hell will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Heaven has a reward system too.

Rewards in heaven...

www.openbible.info...

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: EasternShadow

Salvation is through faith for those who have repented

Repent is works.

originally posted by: Deetermined
and come to know God.

Come to know God is works.

originally posted by: Deetermined
Works are judged separately for both heaven and hell.

Again emphasize on works. Not faith alone.

originally posted by: Deetermined
Eventually, hell will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Heaven has a reward system too.

Also according to works. You don't just abuse children and simply have faith that you will enter heaven without justice.

originally posted by: Deetermined
Rewards in heaven...

www.openbible.info...

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial

Remain steadfast under trial is works.

originally posted by: Deetermined
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

"according to what he has done" Is works. It didn't say,"according to faith alone"

originally posted by: Deetermined
Luke 12:33-34
Sell your possessions, and give to the needy.

Again more works.

Jesus said, "keep my command". Clear meaning for works.

No Bible verses mentioned it's fine to be sinners as long as you believe in Jesus. There is no evidence in past and present that faith alone would yield good fruit. It's even more evident now with rampant pedophilia cases among Christian's priest and Bishops and Cardinals. You could argue genuine faith is by Holy Spirit. But holy spirit can only enter the body, if the heart is pure and clean. Not the opposite. How to maintain pure and clean heart? Practise, practise and more practises. It means work, work and more works. You don't just pray and do nothing about it. That's what your priests do daily. Pray for magical reward with less regard to sin.

a reply to: EasternShadow

If you want to call repenting and getting to know God "works", that's cool. I don't have any objections to anything you've just stated in your entire post.

You could argue genuine faith is by Holy Spirit. But holy spirit can only enter the body, if the heart is pure and clean. Not the opposite. How to maintain pure and clean heart? Practise, practise and more practises. It means work, work and more works. You don't just pray and do nothing about it.

Absolutely!

That's what your priests do daily. Pray for magical reward with less regard to sin.

That's why the Bible tells us that there will be some who claim to know God, but Jesus will say He never knew them. Praying for forgiveness with no remorse or change of action isn't sincere and won't get anyone anywhere, regardless of what any priest thinks.

Nice post.

a reply to: EasternShadow

So how does that work with faith alone?

I think some are confused on what Paul meant through his teachings. Most likely, you're witnessing only the scriptures that Paul wrote as to how the Mosaic laws ("works") did not fit into Christianity. If you do some more in depth study of Paul, you'll soon find that he didn't teach anything different than what Jesus did. I've already pointed out in Romans 2:6 where Paul says that God will judge man by his deeds. Maybe the words "Mosaic laws" should have been substituted for Paul's definition of "works" to make it less confusing. If there is something specifically troubling you about what Paul said, I can show you where he most likely explained it in more detail in other scriptures he wrote.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: EasternShadow

So how does that work with faith alone?

I think some are confused on what Paul meant through his teachings. Most likely, you're witnessing only the scriptures that Paul wrote as to how the Mosaic laws ("works") did not fit into Christianity. If you do some more in depth study of Paul, you'll soon find that he didn't teach anything different than what Jesus did. I've already pointed out in Romans 2:6 where Paul says that God will judge man by his deeds. Maybe the words "Mosaic laws" should have been substituted for Paul's definition of "works" to make it less confusing. If there is something specifically troubling you about what Paul said, I can show you where he most likely explained it in more detail in other scriptures he wrote.

There is no misunderstanding. I don't like how Paul twisted the words "deeds" into "faith alone". I don't like how he justify "inspiration" as the word of God. And I don't find his words are any differences than words of ordinary man. Probably due to his tolerance to the Gentiles, but it's no excuse when you are suppose to teach the kingdom of God.

I'm not alone to think Paul teach different doctrine than what is taught by Jesus.

The articles below list all the differences and explain better than I do.

A List of Contradictory and Incompatible Statements

Jesus vs Paul

How are the teachings of Paul different than the teachings of Jesus?

WHEN THE TEACHINGS OF PAUL CONFLICT WITH JESUS' TEACHINGS...WHO ARE WE TO BELIEVE?


I don't trust Paul because of this:
“Though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 4:14)

“I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.” (Galatians 2:20). -Literally a Lie. No one crucified Paul.

“I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.” (Romans 7:19).-Twisting logics or double minded confusion? How is this suppose to be "inspired" from God?

“If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.” (1 Corinthians 14:37-38). - Wow! Now he has God's authority to Judge. Sound like Satan to me.

“When you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God.” (1 Thessalonians 2:13). - who is us? Man or Satan?

a reply to: EasternShadow

I don't trust Paul because of this:
“Though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 4:14)

When it fails to make sense, always try reading it in many different translations to see if you're interpreting it wrong. This is why I use www.biblegateway.com. I can look up a verse and expand it to pull up every translation that exists of it.

Here's the Living Bible translation for Galatians 4:8-15 (keep in mind that's he's talking about the Mosaic laws when he says "God's laws").

8 Before you Gentiles knew God you were slaves to so-called gods that did not even exist. 9 And now that you have found God (or I should say, now that God has found you), how can it be that you want to go back again and become slaves once more to another poor, weak, useless religion of trying to get to heaven by obeying God’s laws? 10 You are trying to find favor with God by what you do or don’t do on certain days or months or seasons or years. 11 I fear for you. I am afraid that all my hard work for you was worth nothing.

12 Dear brothers, please feel as I do about these things, for I am as free from these chains as you used to be. You did not despise me then when I first preached to you, 13 even though I was sick when I first brought you the Good News of Christ. 14 But even though my sickness was revolting to you, you didn’t reject me and turn me away. No, you took me in and cared for me as though I were an angel from God or even Jesus Christ himself.

15 Where is that happy spirit that we felt together then? For in those days I know you would gladly have taken out your own eyes and given them to replace mine[a] if that would have helped me.

a reply to: EasternShadow

“I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.” (Galatians 2:20). -Literally a Lie. No one crucified Paul.

When Paul says that he was crucified with Christ, he's saying that he was born again into a new Spirit and his old self died. Paul used to be a Pharisee before he came to the realization of who Jesus really was. He even persecuted Christians before he was visited by Jesus and chose to become a disciple instead.

Let's look at what he's saying in more context...

Galatians 2:17-21

17 But what if we trust Christ to save us and then find that we are wrong and that we cannot be saved without being circumcised and obeying all the other Jewish laws? Wouldn’t we need to say that faith in Christ had ruined us? God forbid that anyone should dare to think such things about our Lord. 18 Rather, we are sinners if we start rebuilding the old systems I have been destroying of trying to be saved by keeping Jewish laws, 19 for it was through reading the Scripture that I came to realize that I could never find God’s favor by trying—and failing—to obey the laws. I came to realize that acceptance with God comes by believing in Christ.

20 I have been crucified with Christ: and I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. And the real life I now have within this body is a result of my trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I am not one of those who treats Christ’s death as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping Jewish laws, then there was no need for Christ to die.

a reply to: EasternShadow

“I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.” (Romans 7:19).-Twisting logics or double minded confusion? How is this suppose to be "inspired" from God?

Paul is trying to point out that it's only through the power of the Holy Spirit that we constantly desire to do what's right. In the Old Testament, God tells us that the heart wants to do evil and that we can't trust it without the help of God. While the words aren't directly from God, they were inspired by God.

I think we both know that having the Holy Spirit doesn't mean we'll NEVER sin again, it's always a work in progress, but we must try and the Holy Spirit makes it much easier. I think that's part of the message that Paul is relaying here.

Romans 7:21-25

21 It seems to be a fact of life that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love to do God’s will so far as my new nature is concerned; 23-25 but there is something else deep within me, in my lower nature, that is at war with my mind and wins the fight and makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. In my mind I want to be God’s willing servant, but instead I find myself still enslaved to sin.

So you see how it is: my new life tells me to do right, but the old nature that is still inside me loves to sin. Oh, what a terrible predicament I’m in! Who will free me from my slavery to this deadly lower nature? Thank God! It has been done[c] by Jesus Christ our Lord. He has set me free.

a reply to: EasternShadow

“If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.” (1 Corinthians 14:37-38). - Wow! Now he has God's authority to Judge. Sound like Satan to me.

You have to read the whole chapter to understand what's going on here. Paul lays out the rules for how to conduct themselves in church and how to conduct themselves while prophesying. Obviously, there were disagreements on what was considered true prophecy or how it was prophesied.

1 Corinthians 14:36-40

36 You disagree? And do you think that the knowledge of God’s will begins and ends with you Corinthians? Well, you are mistaken! 37 You who claim to have the gift of prophecy or any other special ability from the Holy Spirit should be the first to realize that what I am saying is a commandment from the Lord himself. 38 But if anyone still disagrees—well, we will leave him in his ignorance.[f]

39 So, my fellow believers, long to be prophets so that you can preach God’s message plainly; and never say it is wrong to “speak in tongues”; 40 however, be sure that everything is done properly in a good and orderly way.

a reply to: EasternShadow

“When you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God.” (1 Thessalonians 2:13). - who is us? Man or Satan?

1 Thessalonians 2:13-16

13 And we will never stop thanking God for this: that when we preached to you, you didn’t think of the words we spoke as being just our own, but you accepted what we said as the very Word of God—which, of course, it was—and it changed your lives when you believed it.

14 And then, dear brothers, you suffered what the churches in Judea did, persecution from your own countrymen, just as they suffered from their own people, the Jews. 15 After they had killed their own prophets, they even executed the Lord Jesus; and now they have brutally persecuted us and driven us out. They are against both God and man, 16 trying to keep us from preaching to the Gentiles for fear some might be saved; and so their sins continue to grow. But the anger of God has caught up with them at last.

Here's why Paul says what he does about the words the disciples were speaking as those of God's...

John 14:25

25 “I am telling you these things now while I am still with you. 26 But when the Father sends the Comforter[a] instead of me*—and by the Comforter I mean the Holy Spirit—he will teach you much, as well as remind you of everything I myself have told you.

originally posted by: Deetermined
When it fails to make sense, always try reading it in many different translations to see if you're interpreting it wrong. This is why I use www.biblegateway.com. I can look up a verse and expand it to pull up every translation that exists of it.

Here's the Living Bible translation for Galatians 4:14 But even though my sickness was revolting to you, you didn’t reject me and turn me away. No, you took me in and cared for me as though I were an angel from God or even Jesus Christ himself..

I am convinced, The word, "as though/as if" are added by the Living Bible Translation, Common English Bible (CEB),Complete Jewish Bible (CJB), etc..
It doesn't exist in, Amplified Bible (AMP), American Standard Version (ASV),BRG Bible (BRG), Christian Standard Bible (CSB), Darby Translation (DARBY), etc..

I've gone through Bible Commentaries, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. It appears the translations are derived from Latin text,

Refer to verse 14, Galatians 4

As an angel of God (ως αγγελον τεου — hōs aggelon theou), as Christ Jesus (ως Χριστον Ιησουν — hōs Christon Iēsoun). In spite of his illness and repulsive appearance, whatever it was. Not a mere “messenger” of God, but a very angel, even as Christ Jesus

www.studylight.org...

Paul made a claim, he is a not mere messenger of God, but a very angel, even as Jesus. Living Bible, CEB, CSB and other Bible translation try to hide it by adding the word, "as if/as though".

My problem with Paul's is without credence. This is another example of how the bible is being "corrected" by man, justified by Paul.

I will get back to your other posts when I'm available. I have to work for living, unlike Paul's "faith alone".

originally posted by: Deetermined
When Paul says that he was crucified with Christ, he's saying that he was born again into a new Spirit and his old self died. Paul used to be a Pharisee before he came to the realization of who Jesus really was. He even persecuted Christians before he was visited by Jesus and chose to become a disciple instead.

Being born again is not equal to being crucified with Jesus. Being reborn again is about experience a new body and life. Being crucified however is about, humiliation, suffering, sacrificing, forgiving and one's responsibility to carry the weight of sins. Nothing on this matter relevant to Paul's context.

originally posted by: Deetermined
Let's look at what he's saying in more context...

Paul is not an ordained prophet of God. Therefore, I have the right to rebuke his opinion.

Galatians 2:19
19 for it was through reading the Scripture that I came to realize that I could never find God’s favor by trying—and failing—to obey the laws. I came to realize that acceptance with God comes by believing in Christ.

Let's us examined what it is actual says in Hebrew and Greek text.

Galatians 2:19 Hebrew Bible
כי מתי אני לתורה על ידי התורה למען אחיה לאלהים׃
biblehub.com...

ΠΡΟΣ ΓΑΛΑΤΑΣ 2:19 Greek NT: RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Ἐγὼ γὰρ διὰ νόμου νόμῳ ἀπέθανον, ἵνα θεῷ ζήσω.
biblehub.com...

New American Standard Bible
"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

King James Bible
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For through the law I have died to the law, so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ.

Bible Commentaries Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament Galatians 2, Verse 19
I through the law died to the law (εγω δια νομου νομωι απετανον — egō dia nomou nomōi apethanon). Paradoxical, but true. See note on Romans 7:4, note on Romans 7:6 for picture of how the law waked Paul up to his real death to the law through Christ.
www.studylight.org...

The translations are way off from your quote and context. However let's see what is verse 20 actually mean in Greek through Bible Commentaries.

I have been crucified with Christ (Χριστωι συνεσταυρωμαι — Christōi sunestaurōmai). One of Paul‘s greatest mystical sayings. Perfect passive indicative of συσταυροω — sustauroō with the associative instrumental case (Χριστωι — Christōi). Paul uses the same word in Romans 6:6 for the same idea. In the Gospels it occurs of literal crucifixion about the robbers and Christ (Matthew 27:44; Mark 15:32; John 19:32). Paul died to the law and was crucified with Christ. He uses often the idea of dying with Christ (Galatians 5:24; Galatians 6:14; Romans 6:8; Colossians 2:20) and burial with Christ also (Romans 6:4; Colossians 2:12).

No longer I (ουκετι εγω — ouketi egō). So complete has become Paul‘s identification with Christ that his separate personality is merged into that of Christ. This language helps one to understand the victorious cry in Romans 7:25. It is the union of the vine and the branch (John 15:1-6).
Which is in the Son of God (τηι του υιου του τεου — tēi tou huiou tou theou). The objective genitive, not the faith of the Son of God.
For me (υπερ εμου — huper emou). Paul has the closest personal feeling toward Christ. “He appropriates to himself, as Chrysostom observes, the love which belongs equally to the whole world. For Christ is indeed the personal friend of each man individually” (Lightfoot).

www.studylight.org...

There is no metaphoric behind Paul's claim. Yet again, He make nonsense claim identifying himself as Jesus, "which is the son of God."

originally posted by: Deetermined
I think we both know that having the Holy Spirit doesn't mean we'll NEVER sin again, it's always a work in progress, but we must try and the Holy Spirit makes it much easier.

You can't have both Sinful Heart and Holy Spirit in the same place. If sin enter your heart, then the Holy Spirit will leaves until you repent. As long as we live, we will always be tempted to commit sin. But it is no excuse to give in to sin. Sin is sin. God hate sinful man. The Holy Spirit hate Sin.

originally posted by: Deetermined
I think that's part of the message that Paul is relaying here.

Romans 7:21-25

21 It seems to be a fact of life that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love to do God’s will so far as my new nature is concerned; 23-25 but there is something else deep within me, in my lower nature, that is at war with my mind and wins the fight and makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. In my mind I want to be God’s willing servant, but instead I find myself still enslaved to sin.

See!? This is the kind of Paul's attitude I hate most. His will to restrain himself is too weak. He is enslaved by sin because he makes so many excuses. As I said above, this is not an excuse to commit Sin. For there is no justification to commit sin. You can't tell God, "I don't want to lie but I can't because I'm enslave by sin" or "I don't want to sexually abuse children, but I can't because I'm enslaved by sin." But this is what Paul teach you.

So you see how it is: my new life tells me to do right, but the old nature that is still inside me loves to sin. Oh, what a terrible predicament I’m in! Who will free me from my slavery to this deadly lower nature? Thank God! It has been done[c] by Jesus Christ our Lord. He has set me free.

Again more nonsense with new life by "faith alone". If there's new life that set Paul free from "his slavery to this deadly lower nature", Then how is it doesn't free Christian's priest from pedophilia cases?

a reply to: EasternShadow

He uses often the idea of dying with Christ (Galatians 5:24; Galatians 6:14; Romans 6:8; Colossians 2:20) and burial with Christ also (Romans 6:4; Colossians 2:12).

Maybe it would help to look up the other contexts in how Paul uses this phrase as suggested by your link...

Galatians 6:14

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Romans 6:8

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Colossians 2:20

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Romans 6:4

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Personally, I thought the first three verses you posted about being dead to the law/world and being alive in Christ was pretty self explanatory, but hopefully, these other verses will help you to understand what Paul meant.

In no way has Paul ever stated that he is Jesus the Christ, if that's what you've been led to believe.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Again more nonsense with new life by "faith alone". If there's new life that set Paul free from "his slavery to this deadly lower nature", Then how is it doesn't free Christian's priest from pedophilia cases?

I think we both know that priests who are capable of pedophilia never had the Holy Spirit in the first place. Remember, not everyone who claims to be of God actually are. There are a lot of priests and Roman Catholics who truly believe that you only have to be a member of the Catholic church to be saved. Maybe this is why they became priests in the first place. You'd be surprised how many truly believe that.

As for Paul, I think you'll come to a better understanding of him if you read about his revelation with Jesus and study his words more. I believe you've been so conditioned by outsiders to believe him a heretic, that your mind is having trouble adjusting. It will come with more prayer and study.

originally posted by: Deetermined
Maybe it would help to look up the other contexts in how Paul uses this phrase as suggested by your link...

Galatians 6:14

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Romans 6:8

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Colossians 2:20

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Romans 6:4

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Personally, I thought the first three verses you posted about being dead to the law/world and being alive in Christ was pretty self explanatory, but hopefully, these other verses will help you to understand what Paul meant.

Of all the verses you quoted, only the first verse specifically refer to Paul. The rest refer to "We" or "You", which are also implying that everyone [ who believe in Jesus ] is "crucified with Jesus", rather than Paul alone. Thus, Paul's Galatians 14:4 has no value whatsoever, other than to exalt himself, "as angel from God, and even Jesus".

originally posted by: Deetermined
In no way has Paul ever stated that he is Jesus the Christ, if that's what you've been led to believe.

The Hebrew Bible, Greek translations and some English translation disagree with you.