Did Islam Come From Babylon?

a reply to: DISRAELI

He does not cover the 600 AD rise of Islam under Mohamed. That is when we believe that it came form Arabia but his history is correct.. Remember Mohamed when to the Polygamist (used in the sense of more than on god) temple in Meccah and through out all the idols including the one of Allah, a hideous looking creature that looked much the the ice-cream truck driver from the movie Legion. Anyway he then proclaimed Allah to be the most high god. But history shows that in that Temple in Mecca the Moon God Allah was already the most high ranking god in Arabia.

Therefore Seede's history of the etymology of the Moon God his presents is true.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
Historically speaking, Islam begins with Mohammed and the Koran.
My query was about designating Babylon as the geographical source. Even if we focus on the moon deity instead of islam proper, we don't know that this worship originated from Babylon. It is just as plausible that moon worship began with desert wanderers (it is a natural feature of hunting culture), and was brought by them TO Babylon during one of the several periods in history when they overran the Mesopotamian plains.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Yes Islam does but the moon God Allah goes back further in time, and before Mohamed the Moon God known in the Arabic as ALLAH, which does not mean a generic god, was known to Mohamed and his tribe as Allah the moon God.

Just because someone removes things from history does not mean history with the removal is correct. We see that in US history over the last 60 years. Islam has had more time to remove history and all the archeological references to what Allah really was before 600AD. i.e. ISIS destruction of Sumerian and Babylonian sites and temples, they are even doing it is India where there is references too the moon who was a god of sex (multiple wives, seventy virgins all speak of sex to the followers of Islam.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Yes Islam does but ...

Islam is the name in the title of the thread. That's what I was discussing.

a reply to: Seede

You are confusing Islam with middle eastern philosophy, just because architecture and symbolism exist from history into present day doesn't mean that is where the religion of Islam came from. It didn't come from Babylon, the people did, and they brought history with them.

Islam is a religion that came about around 600 AD and stems from Christianity which stems from Judaism, these are facts.

Like Catholics and Baptists

Many have attempted to draw correlations between Allah and lunar deities. However, the foundational scriptures of Islam; al-Qur'an, clearly states many times that Allah is the creator of the Moon, Sun, and Cosmos.

Furthermore, symbols and imagery were originally forbidden by Islam. It was the Ottoman Turks who later spread the Crescent Moon and Star symbol throughout their Islamic Empire.

Also, the God of Islam; "Allah", shares etymology with the northwest Semitic "Father of the Gods"; "El", and not with any known lunar deities.

Allah (Wikipedia)

Cognates of the name "Allāh" exist in other Semitic languages, including Hebrew and Aramaic. The corresponding Aramaic form is Elah (אלה), but its emphatic state is Elaha (אלהא). It is written as ܐܠܗܐ(ʼĔlāhā) in Biblical Aramaic and ܐܲܠܵܗܵܐ (ʼAlâhâ) in Syriacas used by the Assyrian Church, both meaning simply "God". Biblical Hebrew mostly uses the plural (but functional singular) form Elohim (אלהים), but more rarely it also uses the singular form Eloah(אלוהּ).

Allah (Etymology.com)

Arabic name for the Supreme Being, 1702, Alha, from Arabic Allah, contraction of al-Ilah, literally "the God," from al "the" + Ilah "God," which is cognate with Aramaic elah, Hebrew eloah

The Jews of the Second Temple Period spoke Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, and derivatives of those. Jesus (Yeshua/Yehoshua) and his peers would have referred to God by the names "Elah", "Alaha", "El", "Eloah", "Eloi", "El-Elyon", and "Elohim". These words are more similar to the word "Allah" than to the word "God".

a reply to: Sahabi

Please note that is 1702AD.

But from 1702BC there was no Arabic god called Allah. It was Persian philosophy/religion. Mecca had over 120 gods and that was a truth. Allah was Mohamed's tribal deity, who was know in that Pantheon of god's as "The Most High god" above all other of the gods in the temple in Mecca. Nothing more than what the people of that day believed. Just those other tribes that did not accept Allah as their tribal god (talk after 600AD before 1702AD) they were killed. But their is literature that is in the British Museum in London (funny London), that has been translated from the Sumerian text of the Crescent moon god that was later (600AD) called by only the Arabic name Allah.

Seed is correct in the etymology of the moon God, who later was known as Allah and then later made the God of the Moslem.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Hello ChesterJohn.

Almost verbatim, what you have said can be related to "The Most High God" of the Canaanite pantheon; El.

a reply to: Sahabi

your'e right ALMOST,

But all comes from one truth, that is why there is the ONLY one true God, Jesus Christ, we only know his earthly name for sure.

a reply to: Sahabi

Furthermore, symbols and imagery were originally forbidden by Islam. It was the Ottoman Turks who later spread the Crescent Moon and Star symbol throughout their Islamic Empire. Also, the God of Islam; "Allah", shares etymology with the northwest Semitic "Father of the Gods"; "El", and not with any known lunar deities.

In Mecca within a stones throw is the Hotel [Makkah Clock Tower] which actually overshadows the Ka'aba. On top of this hotel is a giant golden crescent and in that crescent is a prayer room which has had millions of Muslims use that prayer room. This hotel and complex is state owned by the Saudi government just as the Ka'aba is also controlled by the same people.

My point being that it is not a valid claim that you can blame the Ottoman Turks for this type of symbolism throughout the world today. The Turks have no part in this crescent symbol that is found in many mosques today. The Ottoman empire was abolished in 1924 which is well on to 94 years ago and the crescent/star of today's Saudi Islamic iconography is far removed from the influence of the Turks. Are you now saying that the symbolism of Islam today is influenced by the Turks of well over 90 years ago and not the Saudi Arabian government of today?

Prior to Muhammad the Ka'aba of Mecca had many gods within its temple and the father of those gods was the god Sin and not EL. The God El was introduced as the contender of the god Sin and was never adopted as a god of the Ka'aba. If Muhammad threw out 300 gods from the Ka'aba then the question you should be asking is just how did 300 gods get into the same Ka'aba in the first place?

Quote
"Before Muhammad appeared, the Kaaba was surrounded by 360 idols, and every Arab house had its god. Arabs also believed in jinn (subtle beings), and some vague divinity with many offspring. Among the major deities of the pre-Islamic era were al-Lat ("The Goddess"), worshipped in the shape of a square stone; al-Uzzah ("The Mighty"), a goddess identified with the morning star and worshipped as a thigh-bone- shaped slab of granite between al-Taid and Mecca; Manat, the goddess of destiny, worshipped as a black stone on the road between Mecca and Medina; and the moon god, Hubal, whose worship was connected with the Black Stone of Kaaba.

The stones were said to have fallen from the sun, moon, stars, and planets and to represent cosmic forces. The so-called Black Stone (actually the color of burnt amber) that Muslims revere today is the same one that their forebears had worshipped well before Muhammad and that they believed had come from the moon."
Unquote
www.adishakti.org...

a reply to: Seede

so basically you are saying a hotel that opened its doors 6 years ago influenced Muhammad's Islam 800 years ago.....

And that that connects Islam to Babylon 2500 years ago, the logic doesn't seem to be there.

“They ask you about the crescents. Say: They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in the affairs of men and for pilgrimage.” [Al Baqarah, 2:189]

a reply to: fatkid

I think he is saying that the hotel, government owned, was influenced by the use of a Crescent moon throughout the Middle east that represents Islam.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Pretty sure the crescent moon represents the delivery of the Quran to the prophet, it is why Ramadan starts on the cement moon of the 9th month every year, and why it is symbolic in Islam.....

a reply to: fatkid

9th month according to the Islamic calendar of 28/29 day months not our secular calendar. So sometimes their holiday is in winter sometimes in summer. or in between.

a reply to: Seede

Your theory is wrong due to basic logic:

The sun is needed to support life on this planet not only its light but also the heat it provides. So the sun can easily penetrate this "alleged" wall of water you speak about, not only that but mention of the stars and the moon dating back to the Sumerians, Enoch days, grandson of Adam.

From the beginning of time which was calculated as 30 days for one month, 12 months because of Zodiac or 12 tribes of Israel (you choose) was one year - full moon to full moon was 30 days. Time was easy to track - plus sun dials were used which dates back to ancient times.

At night time a mist would surround the planet giving life its daily drink of water. In the morning when you walked outside at first light you could see the dew everywhere because it never rained in the "old days" not until after the flood did not start raining.

Have you ever taken a glass bottle of water and attempted to read something through it? When looking through a bottle of water it magnifies everything and makes it very clear.... now image at night time.

You bring in a theory, not fact but interesting to consider.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

*cresent, not sure why it put cement moon....

originally posted by: Seede
The moon god is not a very popular god with most biblical teachings but did you know that the moon god Nanna/Sin was far more worshiped than most any god of Abrahamic era?

I think that's a bit tricky to quantify. Worshipping the sun, a sun-god or trinities (triads) was quite popular as well.

The religious triad, or trinity, was a prominent feature of worship in Babylon. One Babylonian triad was composed of Sin (a moon-god), Shamash (a sun-god), and Ishtar (a goddess of fertility and war). In ancient Egypt, a god was often viewed as being married to a goddess who bore him a son, “forming a divine triad or trinity in which the father, moreover, was not always the chief, contenting himself on occasion with the role of prince consort, while the principal deity of the locality remained the goddess.” (New Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology) One Egyptian triad consisted of the god Osiris, the goddess Isis, and their son Horus.

Source: Do You Appreciate Our Spiritual Heritage?

With the passage of time, the gods of the first Babylonian Empire began to multiply. The pantheon came to have a number of triads of gods, or deities. One such triad was composed of Anu (the god of the sky), Enlil (the god of the earth, air, and storm), and Ea (the god presiding over the waters).
...
The Babylonians even had triads of devils, such as the triad of Labartu, Labasu, and Akhkhazu. The worship of heavenly bodies became prominent (Isa 47:13), and various planets came to be associated with certain deities.
...
The cities of ancient Babylonia came to have their own special guardian deities, somewhat like “patron saints.” In Ur it was Sin; in Eridu, Ea; in Nippur, Enlil; in Cuthah, Nergal; in Borsippa, Nebo, and in the city of Babylon, Marduk (Merodach).

Source: Gods and Goddesses: Insight, Volume 1

a reply to: fatkid

so basically you are saying a hotel that opened its doors 6 years ago influenced Muhammad's Islam 800 years ago..... And that that connects Islam to Babylon 2500 years ago, the logic doesn't seem to be there. “They ask you about the crescents. Say: They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in the affairs of men and for pilgrimage.” [Al Baqarah, 2:189]

No, basically that is not what I said. What I said in context is that this god Sin which came into existence long before Muhammad even existed was adopted by Muhammad and allowed to continue to be a father god after Muhammad cast out all of the lesser gods from the Ka'aba.

This god Sin became the Allah of Muhammad and became represented by the crescent and star in later time by the very religion that Muhammad himself established. Today that very symbolism is shown in many structures as well as Muslim literature. This crescent of Makkah is likewise shown in the very Muslim nation who controls the Ka'aba and by the same Muslim family who built this hotel. You would have to be totally ignorant not to understand that the moon god of Islam is sanctified by this very same iconography that has existed since Muhammad established it and even allowed Sin and his black rock to survive in the very shrine [Ka'aba] in Mecca.

a reply to: Seede

My point being that it is not a valid claim that you can blame the Ottoman Turks for this type of symbolism throughout the world today.

Can you please show us an Islamic mosque that featured the Crescent Moon and Star symbol prior to the Ottoman Empire? Hint: None.

The Crescent Moon and Star symbol exists within Islam today because the Ottoman Empire was the very last and most recent multinational Islamic Empire. Of course facets of the last and most recent Islamic Empire would exist up until today! The last and most recent of anything carries influence into the future.

The God El was introduced as the contender of the god Sin and was never adopted as a god of the Ka'aba.

Wrong!

Allah, the Arabian cognate for El, was always known as the "Father of the Gods" over the polytheistic pantheon of Arabia, just as El held this position in the Canaanite Religion.

For example, prior to Islam's creation,.... Islam's Prophet Muhammad's father was named, "Abdullah", which translates to; "Servant of Allah". This name also predates Muhammad's father.

Furthermore, the word "Allah" is used in place of "El" and "Elohim" in the Arabic translations of the Tanakh and Bible.

al-Lat ("The Goddess"),... al-Uzzah ("The Mighty"),... and Manat

That is just more proof of Allah! In pre-Islamic Arabia, these three goddesses were known as the "Daughters of Allah", which further verifies that Allah has always been the "Father of the Gods" just as El.

a reply to: Seede
In Assyrian religion the star actually signifies the goddess Ishtar.

[Picture on page 956]

Assyrian king surrounded by symbols of his gods. The helmet with horns is said to represent Asshur; the winged disk in this case stands for the sun-god Shamash; the crescent is the emblem of the moon-god Sin; the forked line is the thunderbolt of Adad; and the star signifies Ishtar

Source: Assyrian Empire: Insight, Volume 1

From the earlier link "Gods and Goddesses":

Egyptian Deities. The gods and goddesses worshiped by the Egyptians give evidence of an underlying Babylonian heritage. There were triads of deities and even triple triads, or “enneads.” One of the popular triads consisted of Osiris, his consort Isis, and their son Horus.
...
The relationship of Osiris and Isis and their respective characteristics strikingly correspond to the relationship and characteristics of the Babylonian Tammuz and Ishtar. Hence, numerous scholars consider them to be identical.