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Did Islam Come From Babylon?

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posted on Oct, 17 2017 @ 02:56 PM
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a reply to: babloyi


But it really seems to be irking you, so much so that you've turned "Did Islam Come From Babylon?" to "No, Jesus totally won't slaughter loads of people" to now "Nuhuhh, but Muhammad is so much worse!" I don't need to compare to Muhammad to point out that Jesus will bring death, destruction, bloodshed and mourning to every people on earth. It's written right there in the Bible. The fact that in your eyes the people who will be meted out this justice would deserve it is not relevant.

You are very confused as to understanding Islam. Please let me explain.

You can not deny that the Quran does teach you that the Jesus of the NT is a prophet of the same god as that of Islam's Quran. Both Jesus and Muhammad have the same god in the Quran. Now by that it has to be understood that Islam accepts the premise that Jesus, being nothing but another prophet of Allah, shall not act upon His own understanding but has and will act upon the will of Allah. So in that respect Jesus does not bring death, destruction, bloodshed and mourning to all people upon earth except by the order of Allah. This would be the same Allah that Muhammad has given you. Jesus therefore is directed to murder people by the same Allah as that which Muhammad has. Is this not the understanding that you have just presented?

So if that be true, then the Allah of Islam is the guilty creator who you are condemning and Jesus is nothing but a servant who carries out the will of Allah. Then by all reasoning Muhammad is a fellow servant also who went on his killing spree by the order of the same Allah as has directed Jesus. I think you have opened up a can of worms. You now have to prove that the entire NT is bogus and erase the Jesus of the NT.




posted on Oct, 17 2017 @ 03:11 PM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1


a reply to: Seede Good thread ...one of the better YTubers on Islam is David Wood . He gives sources to how modern day Islam came to be but also has some ancient sources ...go to 5:40 and listen for a short . you will get a laugh I guarantee it Text

Thank you 2ofusr1-- I listened to David Woods entire video and several other of his videos. Very interesting and was so engrossed that I was double checking his Quran verses to watch his accuracy. I found him to be 100% accurate with my copy and was quite impressed with his understanding what he reads. His recall is quite impressive also. Very good speaker and easy to understand as well as pleasant to watch.
Thank again for the great link ---



posted on Oct, 17 2017 @ 03:42 PM
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a reply to: Seede
Your logic does not follow.
Because a muslim would believe (due to Islam and the Quran) that Jesus is the Messiah, she would somehow have to accept the New Testament? How do you get that? The general understanding of the Bible by muslims is that it has been corrupted and is not a reliable source for the Word of God.



posted on Oct, 17 2017 @ 05:04 PM
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a reply to: babloyi




The general understanding of the Bible by muslims is that it has been corrupted and is not a reliable source for the Word of God.
Lets see . The Koran says that God gave the Jews the OT and gave the Christians the Gospels . He also says that He gave the Muslims the Koran ...He says that He will keep and preserve His word . question .. Does the Koran say that the OT and or the NT (gospels) is corrupted ? Or is it Muslims saying that they are and that God is or was not able to protect His word ?



posted on Oct, 17 2017 @ 07:43 PM
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a reply to: babloyi


a reply to: Seede Your logic does not follow. Because a muslim would believe (due to Islam and the Quran) that Jesus is the Messiah, she would somehow have to accept the New Testament? How do you get that? The general understanding of the Bible by muslims is that it has been corrupted and is not a reliable source for the Word of God.

Entirely my point.

If indeed the NT is corrupt then let us take one accusation at a time and not cloud the entire program with multiple accusations. The Quran has the name of Jesus as a prophet but not as the Begotten Son of His God. This is the key difference between Islam and Christianity. Why is that? If Muhammad taught of Jesus as only a prophet, then Muhammad had to have discredited every letter in the NT Gospels and the thousands of Greek MSS that verify the Hebrew Gospels.

Jesus was accused of blasphemy when He claimed that He was the son of God. He was tried and acquitted on that charge by the Jerusalem Sanhedrin and was free to that claim without offense to God. In the gospel of Matthew this is mentioned 30 times. In the gospel of Mark this is mentioned 15 times. In the gospel of Luke this is mentioned 48 times. In the gospel of John this is mentioned 56 times. Just in the gospels of the NT it is written 149 times with hundreds of Greek MSS to verify these Gospels.

Now we have the Quran which denies the four Gospels and the MSS from which the four Gospels are written. I find that astounding and hypocritical to say the least. If indeed the NT is unreliable then it cannot be trusted in any of its entirety and cannot be used by Islam.

The question I ask now is this. What is the Islamic source of determining that Jesus was not the Begotten Son of God and that He did not die in the manner as taught in the NT Gospels?

The letters of Acts, Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Hebrews, 1 and 2 John and Revelation also mention the Son of God 152 times. We now have 301 instances of Jesus being the Son of His God just in the NT alone with the Jewish Sanhedrin of seventy finding this to be a possibility. Now remember one other very important thing. All of these letters mentioned were from men who walked, talked and broke bread with this Jesus. And we have nearly 6,000 MSS that verify this literature.

let us take the debate from there and present your theology of Islam discrediting the MSS of the NT.



posted on Oct, 19 2017 @ 10:50 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1
The Quran itself states that the Judeo-Christian scriptures have been corrupted by segments of its followers.


a reply to: Seede
I wasn't aware that I was in a debate pertaining to the corruption of the Bible. The concept that you disagree with the Quran's thesis that the Bible is corrupted is absolutely irrelevant to me. You say you have no insecurities as far as your faith vs islam goes, yet you constantly feel the need to place yourself/your religion as uniquely above others (including Islam), and place islam as uniquely below others (especially Judeo-Christian religions). I initially thought this was a thread about investigating possible Babylonian origins of Islam, but it seems you find it REALLY REALLY hard to separate your own faith and its superiority from the equation. Sort of collapses the whole argument on a bed of biases, doesn't it?

Anyhow, I wouldn't even know which tack to choose if I wished to debate the concept of Islam's view of the corruption of the Bible. There are so many!
For instance, you seem to think that an argument from majority is meaningful (There are so many books saying that Jesus is the Begotten Son of God, and there is only Islamic scripture that disagrees!).
For another example, you seem to think that all the texts you listed are separate and unique first-hand accounts of people who witnessed Jesus. That's laughably false (or at the very least, completely unprovable).
And for yet another example, there's the fact that there are so many interpretations of what exactly Jesus was WITHIN THE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY ITSELF (many of which are easily reconcilable with the Islamic view), all using the Bible itself as their proof, that it seems funny to assume a united front to form an "opposition".

Is this really the path you want this thread to be taking?
edit on 19-10-2017 by babloyi because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 19 2017 @ 11:25 AM
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a reply to: babloyi




The Quran itself states that the Judeo-Christian scriptures have been corrupted by segments of its followers
Where in the Koran ?



posted on Oct, 19 2017 @ 02:11 PM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1
Quite a lot of references, some requiring more context than I have space to give here. Some examples:

Translation of Surah Al-Baqarah Verse 75
O Muslims, do you then expect that these people will accept your invitation and become believers? whereas there have always been among them some who have been hearing the Word of God, understanding it well and then perverting and tampering with it knowingly.


Translation of Surah Al-Baqarah, Verse 79
So woe to their learned people, who write the law with their own hands and then say to the people, "This is from God," so that they might gain some paltry worldly end. (They do not see that) this writing of their hands will bring woe to them and what they gain thereby will lead to their ruin.


Translation of Surah Al-Maida, Verse 13
...they pervert the words from their context and thus distort their meaning, and have forgotten a good portion of the teaching they were imparted, and regarding all except a few of them you continue to learn that they committed acts of treachery. Pardon them, then, and overlook their deeds. Surely God loves those who do good deeds.


Translation of Surah Al-Inam, Verse 91
And they do not assign to God the attributes due to Him when they say: God has not revealed anything to a mortal. Say: Who revealed the Book which Moses brought, a light and a guidance to men, which you make into scattered writings which you show while you conceal much?


edit on 19-10-2017 by babloyi because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 19 2017 @ 03:34 PM
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a reply to: babloyi

I have a Koran and would like the verse that is in the Koran please . I have been told that the Koran is easy to understand so where in the Koran does it say what you said it says . Not a hadith but the words from your Alla ...tks Oh and how accurate is David Wood in this vid about the Hadiths ?

edit on 19-10-2017 by the2ofusr1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 19 2017 @ 04:43 PM
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a reply to: babloyi


Is this really the path you want this thread to be taking?

Diversion was instigated by your own mind. Review your posts and then cast the decision. If you have any questions as to the Islamic faith then reread page four and read Sahabi's paper on "Islam's Incorruptible Quran is corrupt". The man is a brilliant and most informative source among us. Please give it a read, you will be impressed.



posted on Oct, 19 2017 @ 04:48 PM
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a reply to: Seede

babloyl was in Sahabi's thread on the Quran . I am trying to get him to show me where in the Quran it says what he claimed it said but its like pulling teeth trying to discuss things with Muslims sometimes .



posted on Oct, 19 2017 @ 05:33 PM
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a reply to: Seede

This is another great scholar that has studied Islam and he finds links to the Gnostic influence ...



posted on Oct, 19 2017 @ 06:34 PM
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This thread needs a lecture with secret society sources that help connect the dot's back to Babylon and the mysteries . Its such a big subject to get a good grip on as there are so many deceptive rabbit holes one can spent a lot of time down . This lecture is a good one and one I am watching for the second time .



posted on Oct, 19 2017 @ 07:14 PM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1
I listened to your video and it is very well presented. Dr. Heiser is a long time teacher of mine in the OT literature but had not known Dr. White. Thank you for the video.

I had realized that this thread would not be popular with most people simply because political correctness influences religion as well as politics influences our entire lives. Most all religions do get a pass except for true Christianity. My interest in this subject is that Islam is the second largest religion in the world and the least understood by most all that I have talked to. I also believe that most all Muslims are not aware of their origin of what they are led to accept and I also am aware of the fact that most all of those who claim Christianity are also in the same boat.

That is the reason I directed this thread in this direction was to help understand the origin of Islam. In order to do this we must go back to the antediluvian period and the post flood eras. This leads us to Abram and then to Muhammad. But on the way to Abram and Muhammad we have to stop and try to understand key principles.

One of those key principles is the the misconception that many people have in believing that Allah and the Most High El of the biblical Jesus are the same. I have read many ATS reviews that parrot the adage that the three religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have the same God. They are not the same Gods today nor have they ever been the same Gods. It actually borders on a lie and not a misconception.

Quote
Origin of the Name Allah
The word "Allah" comes from the compound Arabic word, al-ilah. Al is the definite article "the" and ilah is an Arabic word for "god", i.e. the god. We see immediately that (a) this is not a proper name but a generic name rather like the Hebrew El (which as we have seen was used of any deity; and (b) that Allah is not a foreign word (as it would have been if it had been borrowed from the Hebrew Bible) but a purely Arabic one. It would also be wrong to compare "Allah" with the Hebrew or Greek for God (El and Theos, respectively), because "Allah" is purely an Arabic term used exclusively in reference to an Arabic deity.

The Encyclopedia of Religion says: "'Allah' is a pre-Islamic name . . . corresponding to the Babylonian Bel" (ed. James Hastings, Edinburgh, T. & T. Clark, 1908, I:326).

I know that Muslims will find this hard to believe so I am now going to make many citations and present the archaeological evidence to prove conclusively that is true. Though this data will be painful for many of our readers, it is necessary to face the truth. Facts are facts, and unless you are willing to desert all logic, reason and common sense, and the evidence of your eyes, they must be faced.
"Allah is found . . . in Arabic inscriptions prior to Islam" (Encyclopedia Britannica, I:643)

"The Arabs, before the time of Mohammed, accepted and worshipped, after a fashion, a supreme god called allah" (Encyclopedia of Islam, eds. Houtsma, Arnold, Basset, Hartman; Leiden: E.J.Brill, 1913, I:302)

"Allah was known to the pre-Islamic Arabs; he was one of the Meccan deities" (Encyclopedia of Islam, ed. Gibb, I:406)
"Ilah . . . appears in pre-Islamic poetry . . . By frequency of usage, al-ilah was contracted to allah, frequently attested to in pre-Islamic poetry" (Encyclopedia of Islam, eds. Lewis, Menage, Pellat, Schacht; Leiden: E.J.Brill, 1971, III:1093)

"The name Allah goes back before Muhammed" (Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend, "The Facts on File", ed. Anthony Mercatante, New York, 1983, I:41)

The origin of this (Allah) goes back to pre-Muslim times. Allah is not a common name meaning "God" (or a "god"), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1908, I:326)
Scholar Henry Preserved Smith of Harvard University stated:

"Allah was already known by name to the Arabs" (The Bible and Islam: or, the Influence of the Old and New Testament on the Religion of Mohammed, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1897, p.102)
Dr. Kenneth Cragg, former editor of the prestigious scholarly journal Muslim World and an outstanding modern Western Islamic scholar, whose works were generally published by Oxford University, comments:
The name Allah is also evident in archaeological and literary remains of pre-Islamic Arabia" (The Call of the Minaret, New York: OUP, 1956, p. 31).

Dr. W. Montgomery Watt, who was Professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies at Edinburgh University and Visiting Professor of Islamic Studies at College de France, Georgetown University, and the University of Toronto, has done extensive work on the pre-Islamic concept of Allah. He concludes:

"In recent years I have become increasingly convinced that for an adequate understanding of the career of Muhammad and the origins of Islam great importance must be attached to the existence in Mecca of belief in Allah as a "high god". In a sense this is a form of paganism, but it is so different from paganism as commonly understood that it deserves separate treatment" (Mohammad's Mecca, p.vii. See also his article, "Belief in a High God in pre-Islamic Mecca", Journal of Scientific Semitic Studies, vol.16, 1971, pp.35-40)

Caesar Farah in his book on Islam concludes his discussion of the pre-Islamic meaning of Allah by saying:
"There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews" (Islam: Beliefs and Observations, New York: Barrons, 1987, p.28)
Unquote

Source www.biblebelievers.org.au...

I have now presented evidence from a multitude of scholars that Allah preexisted before Muhammad and was known then as the moon god. If this is true then Islam has much to defend.

Thanks again for the video --



posted on Oct, 19 2017 @ 09:30 PM
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a reply to: Seede

You will like this one ...

edit on 19-10-2017 by the2ofusr1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 19 2017 @ 10:49 PM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
I have a Koran and would like the verse that is in the Koran please . I have been told that the Koran is easy to understand so where in the Koran does it say what you said it says . Not a hadith but the words from your Alla ...tks


a reply to: the2ofusr1

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
babloyl was in Sahabi's thread on the Quran . I am trying to get him to show me where in the Quran it says what he claimed it said but its like pulling teeth trying to discuss things with Muslims sometimes .

...what?
Are you even reading my posts? Pulling teeth? It's like you're applying stalling tactics when you don't have anything to say. My last post already answered your question.

PS: I've never had any trouble navigating the hadith. If David Wool wants to use non-standard numbering systems, and is worried about confusing his followers, perhaps he can include both systems in his references?
edit on 19-10-2017 by babloyi because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 19 2017 @ 11:52 PM
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After looking over meaning of names I think the Kaaba should be called the "Allen". It means precious rock, in Gaelic. The name includes a portion of Allah in its spelling and its meaning describes the sacred meteorite lodged into the Kaaba.



posted on Oct, 20 2017 @ 12:02 AM
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a reply to: babloyi




Are you even reading my posts? Pulling teeth? It's like you're applying stalling tactics when you don't have anything to say. My last post already answered your question.
Were those translations you gave me ? I wanted the verse numbers in the Quran . ie 86:7 Emerging from between the backbone and the ribs quran.com... Like the chapter and verse number .
edit on 20-10-2017 by the2ofusr1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 20 2017 @ 10:32 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1
For someone who claims to know so much about Islam, you seem unusually unknowledgeable on how to look up verses. What I gave you WAS the chapter and verse number. Here are links to more translations of the verses I quoted (for some reason you don't believe me?):
www.islamawakened.com...
www.islamawakened.com...
www.islamawakened.com...
www.islamawakened.com...



posted on Oct, 20 2017 @ 12:49 PM
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An edit, since I can no longer change my post:
I apologise for the dismissive and condescending attitude of my posts. I guess with someone who's been here as long as I have, you tend to assume the worst with people, although I really shouldn't generalise like that. I mean, it's completely possible that you've met and conversed with real-life muslims in your life, have actually gone through the Quran, and don't just pick up your opinions from ranty youtube videos, while viewing their beliefs as this abstract "other", so I guess I shouldn't assume.

If you're picking up a snarky and rude tone in my posts, try to ignore it!




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