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Did Islam Come From Babylon?

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posted on Oct, 27 2017 @ 08:17 PM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1


Text a reply to: Seede "circumambulating" 7 times was pagan related to the number of star planets . I wonder if there is a relationship in the story of Jericho some how . "Jericho's name in Hebrew, Yeriẖo, is generally thought to derive from the Canaanite word Reaẖ ("fragrant"), but other theories hold that it originates in the Canaanite word for "moon" (Yareaẖ) or the name of the lunar deity Yarikh for whom the city was an early centre of worship.[18] Jericho's Arabic name, ʼArīḥā, means "fragrant" and also has its roots in Canaanite Reaẖ "

My question was not meant to discredit anyone's religion but was offered only as a question. I do believe you are correct in that the circumambulating was influenced by the heavenly bodies and we do understand that the Amorites did have this crop ritual called Akitu in which they offered thankful prayers to Nanna/Sin while circumambulating their planting and their harvest twice each year. We also know from literature that this ritual originated in Ur of the land of Shinar under Nimrod and Terach [Abram's father].

In lite of this, we also have evidence [belief] that this moon god ritual as well as portions of their cultures also influenced many strains of the Sumarian tribes religions including the very Hebrews who marched around Jericho seven times with their ark of the covenant before them. So in this respect I am not taking shots at just Islam but at the many cultures that were spawned from Babylon. The culture of Jericho was the moon god Sin and that stands as fact.

Just as we have evidence that the Queen of Sheba was a queen of the nation of sun worshipers, we have evidence that the Hebrews clung to some practices of the moon god. Their entire understanding of time was designed from the moon just as was Abram and the Amorites who controlled the word for centuries. Their priests staved the ark and circumambulated before the Hebrews in battles. We can actually see that even today in the moon gods influence in both Judaism and Islam.

But this thread was designed to show that Islam was not totally free of this influence as Islam has modified Muhammad's true acceptance of polytheism and sold it as simply a preexisting monotheistic theology. How did the Islamic founders do this? By embracing selected Judaic, Christian, and Moon god theological literature into one package. And who did this? An illiterate murdering insane man named Muhammad? No, not really. He had lots of help by like minded people.




posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 10:34 AM
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a reply to: Seede

originally posted by: Seede
So as to clarify what I wrote on this matter let me reiterate that question. I cannot find any of the ritual of circumambulating a shrine and rock of Islam in the Quran and wonder why it is not important enough to be in the Quran?

You don't seem to have looked very hard, in that case.

Translation of Surah Al-Hajj, verses 26 to 30
And when we assigned to Abraham the site of the Sacred House (Kaaba), saying "Associate not anything in worship with Me, and sanctify My House for those who circumambulate it, and those who stand up, and those who prostate themselves.
And proclaim to mankind of the Pilgrimage. They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, they will come from every mountain highway.
That they may witness the benefits to them, and celebrate the name of God through the days appointed, over cattle provided to them for sacrifice, eat of them and feed the poor and unfortunate.
Then let them complete the rites prescribed to them, perform their vows and circumabulate the Ancient House.


And because some people here seriously seem to think that "moon-god"
is at all meaningful in Islam:

Translation of Surah Fussilat, verse 37
Among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not prostrate to the sun and the moon, but prostrate to God, who created them, if it is Him you wish to serve.


Translation of Surah Yunus, verse 5
It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a reflected light, and measured out stages for it; that you might know the number of the years and the count (of time). Nor did God create this but in truth and righteousness. Thus, He explain His signs for those who understand.



posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 08:40 PM
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a reply to: babloyi

originally posted by: Seede
You don't seem to have looked very hard, in that case.


Translation of Surah Al-Hajj, verses 26 to 30 And when we assigned to Abraham the site of the Sacred House (Kaaba), saying "Associate not anything in worship with Me, and sanctify My House for those who circumambulate it, and those who stand up, and those who prostate themselves. And proclaim to mankind of the Pilgrimage. They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, they will come from every mountain highway. That they may witness the benefits to them, and celebrate the name of God through the days appointed, over cattle provided to them for sacrifice, eat of them and feed the poor and unfortunate. Then let them complete the rites prescribed to them, perform their vows and circumabulate the Ancient House.

I have read that in the copy of the Quran that I have before me. That was not the questions that I had asked you. We all know that the above translation is by order of Islam and is in practice today as it was in Muhammad's day. Actually we don't need a book to tell something that we can see happening today. What I want to know is where did this ritual originate? Do you have any MSS or literature to show why you must do what you do? Where does Allah demand a ritual?

Jesus lived 600+ years before Muhammad and Islam declares Jesus a prophet of the same Allah as Muhammad. After the mortal Muhammad came upon the scene and established Islam we now suddenly see two men representing one Allah in the eyes of Muslims. One demands rituals that the other does not. So that is why I am asking you for the MSS or literature that demands circumambulating a Islamic shrine.

Actually Jacob [James] the Just did away with the animal sacrifice and Muhammad continued it over 600 years later. Same God? How could that be?



Translation of Surah Yunus, verse 5 It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a reflected light, and measured out stages for it; that you might know the number of the years and the count (of time). Nor did God create this but in truth and righteousness. Thus, He explain His signs for those who understand.


Torah explained all of this well over several thousand years before Muhammad was even thought of.



posted on Oct, 28 2017 @ 09:03 PM
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a reply to: Seede

originally posted by: Seede
I have read that in the copy of the Quran that I have before me. That was not the questions that I had asked you. We all know that the above translation is by order of Islam and is in practice today as it was in Muhammad's day. Actually we don't need a book to tell something that we can see happening today. What I want to know is where did this ritual originate? Do you have any MSS or literature to show why you must do what you do? Where does Allah demand a ritual?

Are you even reading the verse? It isn't about what is practised now or in Muhammad's day. It is answering exactly your question.


originally posted by: Seede
Jesus lived 600+ years before Muhammad and Islam declares Jesus a prophet of the same Allah as Muhammad. After the mortal Muhammad came upon the scene and established Islam we now suddenly see two men representing one Allah in the eyes of Muslims. One demands rituals that the other does not. So that is why I am asking you for the MSS or literature that demands circumambulating a Islamic shrine.

Two men do not represent God in the eyes of Muslims. Over a hundred men (and possibly women) did.


originally posted by: Seede
Actually Jacob [James] the Just did away with the animal sacrifice and Muhammad continued it over 600 years later. Same God? How could that be?

I'm sorry, are you asking me from the perspective of a religion that requires the blood sacrifice of an innocent human being as part of its central theme?


originally posted by: Seede
Torah explained all of this well over several thousand years before Muhammad was even thought of.

???
It's not a competition.



posted on Oct, 29 2017 @ 11:05 AM
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Wouldn't the Torah origin have some connection to Babylon's culture, where as Christanity pretty much sampled an assimilated Judaism into it own doctrine, just as Arabs back then did to Christanity? Babylon only importance, well from what I know, is that it was a major city like Mecca an Anceint Israel.

After all Giglamesh and Noah are two separate character with different cultural undertones, but it is implied that Noah an imitation of Gilgamesh.

Nvm any other cultural influence like the East.
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posted on Oct, 29 2017 @ 11:32 AM
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a reply to: babloyi


Are you even reading the verse? It isn't about what is practised now or in Muhammad's day. It is answering exactly your question.

Yes I have read and reread the Verses 26-30 of Al-Hajj and I do understand that Islamic worshipers are mandated in circling the Kaaba and worshiping the rock in this ritual. I also understand that one tradition tells that this ritual was started by Abram and another tells that it was started by Adam. Some say that Abram rebuilt the Kaaba in Mekkah which Adam and Ishmael built while others insist that Muhammad built the Kaaba in Meccah after being showed the holy place to build it. But that is not and my question.

How did the ritual start? Did Allah ordain this ritual? Did Adam start this ritual? How did this originate? Why is this ritual a mandate to Muslims and who gave the Saudi family the right to mandate this ritual if they do have this authority? Give us a history of this simply for the records with the proper literature. Surly it can't be that difficult for one well versed in their faith.



posted on Oct, 30 2017 @ 10:11 AM
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a reply to: Seede

originally posted by: Seede
Yes I have read and reread the Verses 26-30 of Al-Hajj and I do understand that Islamic worshipers are mandated in ...

It really doesn't seem like you're reading the verses, because you keep talking about what Islamic worshipers are mandated. The verse has got nothing to do with what Islamic worshipers are mandated to do (at least not in the sense you likely take "Islamic worshipers"). It answers your question. Go ahead and reread it.

And I have no idea what you're talking about regarding the Saudis and how that is relevant to Islam.



posted on Dec, 9 2017 @ 08:58 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

Just because you want to avoid it, doesn’t make it moot



posted on Aug, 11 2018 @ 04:36 PM
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a reply to: Seede


“The flood of Noah is stated as being in 2105 B.C.E. which would mean that for about 1655 years this world could not have seen the heavenly host as we see it now. That canopy of water would have prevented this world to have seen the universe for 1655 years or until the water fell.

Now that seems reasonable till we once again question just how did Noah tell time without seeing the heavenly host? There is very strong evidence that Noah measured a year by one equinox instead of two equinox's. That sounds ridiculous to almost all Torah scholars but there are some Torah scholars that are beginning to question that very hypothesis. After reading several papers on this, I am very interested in more research of the antediluvian world.

Being in a closed environmental world, Noah would not have experienced the seasonal changes that we experience today. He would have also experienced a more uniform and pleasant life without severe weather or dependency on rain to grow his harvest. So what would be his source in measuring time? Almost all Torah scholars agree that it was length of daylight that determined time but all do not agree as to exactly how this was measured. Noah could see the light of the sun and probably could measure the position of the sun even though it would be very densely visible.”


I am intrigued about your comment about mankind not seeing the heavenly host (of stars) until after the Flood. I even wondered if the planet had no axis tilt at that time. If that was the case how would the pre-flood civilization count the years. A 0 Degree earth axis makes it impossible to determine how many solar years have elapsed. The sun would not shift back and forth when completing a circuit. It would just stay in the same spot forever. They would have to count the years differently than they do today.

I was looking into the first born births and lifespans of the antediluvian people in comparison to the list of people who were born post-flood. It’s quite interesting if you go with the Masoretic text with the post-flood births. Here’s a link to this list on Wikipedia. It shows a comparison of births and deaths between the Masoretic/Vulgate, Samaritan Pentateuch and the Greek Septuagint (Lucian).

All of the first born sons of the antediluvian people are born way too late when you compare it to our current state. Going with the Masoretic text we have the following list of first born sons:

Genealogies of Genesis

Seth had Enosh when he was 105
Enosh had Kenan when he was 90
Kenan had Mahalalel when he was 70
Mahalalel had Jared when he was 65
Jared had Enoch when he was 162
Enoch had Methuselah when he was 65
Methuselah had Lamech when he was 187
Lamech had Noah when he was 182
Noah had Shem when he was 502

The post-flood first born sons per the Masoretic text were born at a more normal time period.

Salah: 30-Eber
Eber: 34-Peleg
Peleg: 30-Reu
Reu: 32-Serug
Serug: 30-Nahor
Nahor: 29-Terah

If the antediluvian men were counting the years with our current solar cycle then they must have been having 100’s of daughters before they popped out a first boy so late. They would have been sexually active between 14-17 if they were counting the same way as we do today. They must have counted the years much differently before the flood. I performed an arbitrary calculation and made an assumption that pre-flood years were a ¼ ratio to our current system. Not that this is fact or true but I assume that the pre-flood earth goes around the sun 4 times faster than it does today. The earth would be going around the sun every 90 days. For a comparison Mercury goes around the sun every 88 days.

With a ¼ ratio calculation:

Seth would have Enosh at age 26
Enoch would have Kenan at age 22
Kenan would have Mahalalel at age 17
Mahalalel would have Jared at age 16
Jared would have Enoch at age 40
Enoch would have Methuselah at age 16
Methuselah would have Lamech at age 47
Lamech would have Noah at age 45
Noah would have Shem at age 125

These first born male dates seem more reasonable. If the counting was much different than they did not live that long in the pre-flood world. The life spans would stay between 194 - 240 compared with 777 - 969. Maybe the earth did not go around the sun that fast but they had to use a different method of counting the years.

All this information in the bible was recorded for a reason. We just have to figure it out. I think Enoch has some clues for us as well.

What do you think?



posted on Aug, 11 2018 @ 05:53 PM
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a reply to: LABTECH767

Be wary of sites that serve hatred because they will feed you hatred be it true or not ....



The ancient Assyrians used the term Alla for some of their deities: Al-sarru, if Al had been an Assyrian god. We may set down Alman as a possible reading, or even Alnis, but there seems no meaning to either. Now we have a similar name Alla-MAN, this can hardly be phonetic. I venture therefore to read Alla-sarru and Al-sarru, ‘Alla is king.’ As MAN means king…Mannu-ki-Alla shows the same divine name.
Link


Its 769 miles between Mecca and Jerusalem!



posted on Aug, 12 2018 @ 03:21 PM
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a reply to: fatkid





You are confusing Islam with middle eastern philosophy, just because architecture and symbolism exist from history into present day doesn't mean that is where the religion of Islam came from. It didn't come from Babylon, the people did, and they brought history with them.

I admit that all is not clear in any theological work and I also admit that my mind was centered around not only Islam but Abram. My study on this subject was so extensive that I did have to sort and condense it to a short presentation. Otherwise it would be a complete turn off to the reader. My book is also quite extensive and you are correct in that the religion of the moon god of Terach [Father of Abram] did exist long before Babylon but it is generally accepted by most that the Religion called Islamic was created by Muhummad in 610 CE.

The main reason I had named this as from Babylon was simply that Nanna/Sin was the chief deity of Ur at this time of Abrams youth. Not that it had originated at this time but only that Abram rejected Nanna/Sin as the God of his world at this time. Islamic religion did not exist with Abram but Islamic religion was fathered from Terech and Nimrod's reign of Babylon.

In fact Jeremiah tells us, in his 7th century ministry that the very deity of Nanna/Sin was still active. Nanna/Sin 's wife was Ningal with a daughter named Innanna/Ishstar. Innanna is non other than the queen of heaven that flourished in the prophet Jeremiah's ministry.

Jeremiah_7:18-
The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Jeremiah_44:17-19
(17)But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
(18) But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
(19) And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?

In lite of this you are correct in that the origin of Nanna/Sin goes way back to the antediluvian period with the Watchers of Enoch's days or the days of Yerad. But we passed that in this thread in order to condense the thread.



posted on Aug, 12 2018 @ 04:04 PM
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a reply to: lostinspace


All this information in the bible was recorded for a reason. We just have to figure it out. I think Enoch has some clues for us as well. What do you think?

I agree with what you have analyzed in that I do have some very strong reservations concerning the antediluvian period. One thing very important to think about is that NASA science declares that at the onset of creation one rotation of this world was measured as being one rotation per every seven hours. In other words we had but one day [as we understand day] being 7 hours instead of our 24 hours. That would mean that our world rotated over three times faster then as it rotates now.

Now if the world is 4.5 billion years old [per accepted science] our rotation has slowed down in like manner but we don't know the ratios of slowing down. One thing we can imagine is that the biblical spans tell us that we are about six or seven thousand years in history and if that is true it is but a drop in the bucket so to speak. What I am trying to say is that our biblical history can be assumed as being then as it is today. That would mean that Noah would have had the same time in a day as we have today if he accepted two equinoxes in a year. But what if Noah only realized one equinox per year?

If that study does run true then that would involve a new understanding of the translations of the MSS. That alone wold mean that the antediluvian longevity wold not be accurate and would then involve a totally new concept of the entire biblical interpretations.

The question is did Noah realize a 360 day year within one equinox or two equinox's?

Your comments?



posted on Aug, 13 2018 @ 08:38 PM
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a reply to: Seede


The question is did Noah realize a 360 day year within one equinox or two equinox's?

Your comments?


Could you please explain in more detail about how one equinox calculation changes the lifespan figures? I'm not sure I get it.
Are you saying that Noah might have counted one true solar year as two years in the pre-flood world? Please explain.

Thanks.



posted on Aug, 16 2018 @ 02:33 PM
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a reply to: lostinspace



Could you please explain in more detail about how one equinox calculation changes the lifespan figures? I'm not sure I get it. Are you saying that Noah might have counted one true solar year as two years in the pre-flood world? Please explain.

What I meant by one equinox is that Noah lived as this world had little temperature variations and its wobble was insignificant to mark seasons. Noah marked time as from dark to light which was controlled by the rotation of earth. This rotation was well over three times faster in his day as compared to now. A day of Noah was 7 hours from dark to light or one rotation of this world whereas it is 24 hours today. A year was marked as 360 of Noah's days. Being no wobble to be considered would mean that Noah had but one equinox or one understandable mark of one revolution of the world about the sun in 360 of Noah's days. In that understanding he could not have had the four season that we have today because he had no wobble to tilt the earth to have seasons.

The wobble effect came into play some 1656 of our understanding years after the biblical creation. Actually that would be about 500 + of Noah's years from the creation to the flood when the canopy of water fell upon the earth. This expanded the world as well as slowed the rotation of the world which in turn created our seasons that we observe today. This wobble along with the great weight of water actually created a longer day of 24 hours from dark to light as well as two equinox's in our years of today. It also opened the world from a closed environment to an open environment and changed the physics of our world considerably. Life forms were greatly affected and all life diminished in both size and longevity.

So in my understanding there could not have been two equinox's in the antediluvian biblical understanding. That is not to say that this agrees with the secular understanding of creation but only in biblical understanding. Now all of this would change the biblical life spans of the antediluvian world but would not affect the chronological order of the Hebrew bible. Example would be that Adam lived about 310+ of our years compared to the accredited 930 of Noah's years. This would not in any way change the scriptures but only the understandings of the interpreter's of the translation's. It may also affect the marked times in the flood story. There could be a possibility that the flood was much shorter than we are led to believe.

Being that the change from a closed environmental world to an open environmental world would probably be a gradual change could explain how the longevity of man was also gradually decreased.

A good read and study is that of Neal Adams "Growing Earth" -- www.youtube.com...



posted on Aug, 16 2018 @ 10:31 PM
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a reply to: Seede


Noah marked time as from dark to light which was controlled by the rotation of earth. This rotation was well over three times faster in his day as compared to now. A day of Noah was 7 hours from dark to light or one rotation of this world whereas it is 24 hours today. A year was marked as 360 of Noah's days. Being no wobble to be considered would mean that Noah had but one equinox or one understandable mark of one revolution of the world about the sun in 360 of Noah's days.


I understand now. Thank you for going into more detail. A seven hour day would almost make it a 1/3 ratio compared to our current 24 hour day. It would really be 21 hours but I get the idea. That would be interesting having only 3.5 hours of daylight and 3.5 hours of night. That sure is a short work day. Maybe they stayed awake 6 hours and only needed to sleep 1 hour. The eco system was perfect and maybe sleep wasn't as necessary as it is today.

I was on board with the expanding earth theory the first day that video was uploaded in 2007. It makes way more sense than the Pangaea theory. I think one of the byproducts of the earth being expanded is the extreme earthquakes. It probably wasn't like this before the flood.




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